Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Rémy, You will probably need to resend the CCLA...i can't find in the regular location where ccla's are recorded. - Can u please explain what you mean by "current attitude"? - Are u saying that Tomcat is *NOT* really "Apache Tomcat"? - Are you saying that we need to formalize a mechanism to figure out which company is a leading contributor to a certain project? thanks, dims PS: Remember, i was with you last time there was a blow up about certain contributions to Tomcat. On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:04:44 +0100, Remy Maucherat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Henri Yandell wrote: > > Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given > > that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday. > > > > Any opinions? > > I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at > JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an > individual at the moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a > while ago ...) have submitted a company CLA reflecting that > (http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has > the notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and > does not match the legal documents the ASF uses. > > I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company > to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really > blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here > seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work). > > Rémy > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Henri Yandell wrote: You've pointed out that JBoss are the contributor in your commits, rather than yourself as an individual. I assume other JBoss employees are in the same situation. How does that change the email? Do I need > to drop the paragraph about JBoss not being a contributor I have asked for clarification of what the CCLA means on legal-discuss, but it makes no sense to me that your statement below can be false: "Two Tomcat committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc." If companies can in fact contribute directly, then it would seem to me that a) we should be voting them in as committers / PMC members and b) we should have policies and procedures for extending oversight to them. To my knowledge we (ASF) have no way of doing either of these things nor intention to develop them. Phil - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Remy Maucherat wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday. Any opinions? I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an individual at the moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a while ago ...) have submitted a company CLA reflecting that (http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has the notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and does not match the legal documents the ASF uses. Wasn't aware that you'd submitted a CCLA. I'll find out what the status is with that and change what I say accordingly. I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work). Definitely not my intent. If we (Jakarta) feel that the SD magazine pdf is wrong, then I'm happy to send them an email pointing that out. If we don't have consensus, then I shouldn't do anything. On the -1's (or at least the negative opinions to this), we have Tim who thinks that it's a waste to talk to SD and we should focus on making sure the branding message is clearer. You've pointed out that JBoss are the contributor in your commits, rather than yourself as an individual. I assume other JBoss employees are in the same situation. How does that change the email? Do I need to drop the paragraph about JBoss not being a contributor, or are you -1 to the email itself? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Henri Yandell wrote: Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday. Any opinions? I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an individual at the moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a while ago ...) have submitted a company CLA reflecting that (http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has the notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and does not match the legal documents the ASF uses. I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work). Rémy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Daniel Quinlan wrote: Added carbon copy to PRC. Left original message more or less intact so they can follow. ;-) Thanks Daniel, all good stuff. I'll incorporate it and send a new version to all three lists sometime tonight. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Tim O'Brien wrote: I think the Jolt awards knew better and were trying to send a message similar to the '94 nobel peace prize for Arafat, Peres, and Rabin (which incidentally didn't work very well). (Or, the '98 award for Hume and You really think so? My assumption is that SD Magazine/Jolt awards are relatively clueless as to what the ASF is, what a J2EE container is etc. I'm guessing that they're merely copying whatever the original nomination from a reader said. Trimble for that matter.) Instead of firing off an email to SD, why not stop, observe that we haven't done a good job enforcing trademark and communicating philosophy and resolve to fix things going forward. Going forward, wouldn't we protect the name in just this way? I think this is the earliest point at which we've been aware of the mistake. As for the "a leading contributor" statement. You can't tell me this doesn't happen with other organizations. Anyone is perfectly free to make the observation that JBoss is "a leading contributor" to Tomcat much the same way I could say that BEA is "a leading contributor" to XMLBeans. Some of us may think it wrong, but it is open to editorial interpretation regardless of ASF philosophy. Look at the list of other products. None of the rest are from an organization and its 'leading contributor', so it's not just something that SD commonly do and we just happen to take offence at the wording. There are other mistakes there to be sure, is CollabNet really responsible for 'Subversion 2004' and not Tigris? That's for them to worry about though. Let's change the corporation so as not to drill into the open cavity that is the ongoing spat between JBoss and the ASF. Instead focus on the (much less contentious) relationship between BEA and the ASF: Reporter: BEA is a leading contributor to the XMLBeans product. ASF: Well, no, we really don't recognize corporations, we recognize individuals. BEA do have a CCLA (afaik) because they contributed the initial codebase of XMLBeans. So it's far more acceptable to call BEA a contributor than it is to call JBoss a contributor; they've not contributed anything as a company. Reporter: Great, but doesn't BEA employ a good number of XMLBeans contributors. ASF: Yes, a good number of them are employed by BEA... Reporter: Well, why can't I write "BEA is a leading contributor to..." ASF: Because, that's just not our philosophy it's about people not corporations Reporter: Oh, ok, sure, but why can't I just call it like I see it ASF: Because we think it is wrong Reporter: Thanks, I'll take it under advisement. :-) JBoss employ 2 out of 70 committers. Now, I'm sure many of those committers are inactive, but the Tomcat developer community can't be that small that 2 counts as the majority. The only thing I'd ask JBoss to do is to change the menu link to "Apache Tomcat" from "Tomcat". Because they've agreed to our license, I believe we have every right to have them change "Tomcat" to "Apache Tomcat". I think that's a fair enforcement of trademark (even though I'm not certain we have a trademark). I believe it would help clarify things if the JBoss page prefaced the work Tomcat with the word Apache. That's it. Yep, though this is a completely different letter obviously. It needs more thought as they've been asked to do this before in the past and haven't managed to stop making Tomcat look like a JBoss project. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Added carbon copy to PRC. Left original message more or less intact so they can follow. ;-) Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that > we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday. Still, I'd send earlier if you can. ;-) > Any opinions? > > - > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement > > Hi Kate, Start by thanking her for the award or announcement ... or something. > I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product > excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June > 2005 issue: ... press release because I'm concerned some or all of the error might be reproduced in your forthcoming June 2005 issue. > http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf > > You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache > Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss". The article incorrectly attributes... > There are two, very big, problems with this. There are two very big problems with this attribution. > The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors, > it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the > heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF). Maybe add something like: There are a total of N committers to the project, many of whom are employed by other companies or contribute individually. > The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat > committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the > ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all > committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc. > > We would like to request that this be changed to: > > Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation) > > in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005 > issue. > > Thanks, > > Henri Yandell > V.P., Apache Jakarta +1 in general Daniel -- Daniel Quinlan http://www.pathname.com/~quinlan/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
This was brought up separately on [EMAIL PROTECTED] too. I'll take that as a
second +1 and go ahead and change it to Apache Tomcat 5.0.
There was also a need to change 'whether the company be Sun' to 'whether
their company be Sun'. Grammar screw-up on my part.
Hen
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Henri Yandell wrote:
I did consider it, but thought that a request for:
Apache Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
would be overkill. In much the same way that they have:
Flash Lite 1.1 (Macromedia)
and yet it's correctly referred to as Macromedia Flash.
I can happily add it if there's a few +1s for doing so.
Hen
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Will Glass-Husain wrote:
Good note.
It surprises me you don't want to mention the branding issue ("Apache
Tomcat" vs "Tomcat"). I'd think that'd be a point that a publication and
commercial enterprise like SD Magazine would understand well and be
completely sympathetic to.
It's entirely possible the SD magazine intended to honor both the product
(Apache Tomcat) and the JBoss organization. Whether they should link the
two is subject to debate. But the fact that the product should be "Apache
Tomcat 5.0" not "Tomcat 5.0" is inarguable.
regards,
WILL
- Original Message - From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that
we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
Any opinions?
-
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
Hi Kate,
I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June
2005 issue:
http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
There are two, very big, problems with this.
The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors,
it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the
heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc.
We would like to request that this be changed to:
Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
issue.
Thanks,
Henri Yandell
V.P., Apache Jakarta
-
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RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
I think the Jolt awards knew better and were trying to send a message similar to the '94 nobel peace prize for Arafat, Peres, and Rabin (which incidentally didn't work very well). (Or, the '98 award for Hume and Trimble for that matter.) Instead of firing off an email to SD, why not stop, observe that we haven't done a good job enforcing trademark and communicating philosophy and resolve to fix things going forward. As for the "a leading contributor" statement. You can't tell me this doesn't happen with other organizations. Anyone is perfectly free to make the observation that JBoss is "a leading contributor" to Tomcat much the same way I could say that BEA is "a leading contributor" to XMLBeans. Some of us may think it wrong, but it is open to editorial interpretation regardless of ASF philosophy. Let's change the corporation so as not to drill into the open cavity that is the ongoing spat between JBoss and the ASF. Instead focus on the (much less contentious) relationship between BEA and the ASF: Reporter: BEA is a leading contributor to the XMLBeans product. ASF: Well, no, we really don't recognize corporations, we recognize individuals. Reporter: Great, but doesn't BEA employ a good number of XMLBeans contributors. ASF: Yes, a good number of them are employed by BEA... Reporter: Well, why can't I write "BEA is a leading contributor to..." ASF: Because, that's just not our philosophy it's about people not corporations Reporter: Oh, ok, sure, but why can't I just call it like I see it ASF: Because we think it is wrong Reporter: Thanks, I'll take it under advisement. :-) The only thing I'd ask JBoss to do is to change the menu link to "Apache Tomcat" from "Tomcat". Because they've agreed to our license, I believe we have every right to have them change "Tomcat" to "Apache Tomcat". I think that's a fair enforcement of trademark (even though I'm not certain we have a trademark). I believe it would help clarify things if the JBoss page prefaced the work Tomcat with the word Apache. That's it. - Tim O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] (847) 863-7045 > -Original Message- > From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 12:18 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: general@jakarta.apache.org > Subject: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change > > > Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday > night. Given that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read > until Monday. > > Any opinions? > > - > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement > > Hi Kate, > > I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your > JOLT product excellence awards press release, and I assume in > your forthcoming June > 2005 issue: > > http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf > > You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to > "The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss". > > There are two, very big, problems with this. > > The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading > contributors, it is completely out of sync with the very > philosophies that lie at the heart of the Apache Software > Foundation (ASF). > > The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two > Tomcat committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit > to projects at the ASF as individuals and not as members of a > company. This is true of all committers to the ASF, whether > the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc. > > We would like to request that this be changed to: > > Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation) > > in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming > June 2005 issue. > > Thanks, > > Henri Yandell > V.P., Apache Jakarta > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Not a big deal, just thought it might set a good precedent. Interestingly,
while they list "Contribute (Macromedia)" in the awards they also refer to
"Macromedia Flex (Macromedia)". The split seems to be about 50/50.
Also, I suggest you start the letter with a note of thanks for selecting
Tomcat as a winner. As an enthusiastic user of Tomcat, I personally am
thrilled to see my favorite servlet container continue to receive
recognition and honors.
Best,
WILL
- Original Message -
From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List"
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
I did consider it, but thought that a request for:
Apache Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
would be overkill. In much the same way that they have:
Flash Lite 1.1 (Macromedia)
and yet it's correctly referred to as Macromedia Flash.
I can happily add it if there's a few +1s for doing so.
Hen
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Will Glass-Husain wrote:
Good note.
It surprises me you don't want to mention the branding issue ("Apache
Tomcat" vs "Tomcat"). I'd think that'd be a point that a publication and
commercial enterprise like SD Magazine would understand well and be
completely sympathetic to.
It's entirely possible the SD magazine intended to honor both the product
(Apache Tomcat) and the JBoss organization. Whether they should link the
two is subject to debate. But the fact that the product should be
"Apache Tomcat 5.0" not "Tomcat 5.0" is inarguable.
regards,
WILL
- Original Message - From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given
that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
Any opinions?
-
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
Hi Kate,
I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June
2005 issue:
http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
There are two, very big, problems with this.
The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading
contributors, it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies
that lie at the heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs
Inc.
We would like to request that this be changed to:
Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
issue.
Thanks,
Henri Yandell
V.P., Apache Jakarta
-
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
I did consider it, but thought that a request for:
Apache Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
would be overkill. In much the same way that they have:
Flash Lite 1.1 (Macromedia)
and yet it's correctly referred to as Macromedia Flash.
I can happily add it if there's a few +1s for doing so.
Hen
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Will Glass-Husain wrote:
Good note.
It surprises me you don't want to mention the branding issue ("Apache Tomcat"
vs "Tomcat"). I'd think that'd be a point that a publication and commercial
enterprise like SD Magazine would understand well and be completely
sympathetic to.
It's entirely possible the SD magazine intended to honor both the product
(Apache Tomcat) and the JBoss organization. Whether they should link the two
is subject to debate. But the fact that the product should be "Apache Tomcat
5.0" not "Tomcat 5.0" is inarguable.
regards,
WILL
- Original Message - From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that
we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
Any opinions?
-
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
Hi Kate,
I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June 2005
issue:
http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
There are two, very big, problems with this.
The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors,
it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the
heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc.
We would like to request that this be changed to:
Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
issue.
Thanks,
Henri Yandell
V.P., Apache Jakarta
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Good note.
It surprises me you don't want to mention the branding issue ("Apache
Tomcat" vs "Tomcat"). I'd think that'd be a point that a publication and
commercial enterprise like SD Magazine would understand well and be
completely sympathetic to.
It's entirely possible the SD magazine intended to honor both the product
(Apache Tomcat) and the JBoss organization. Whether they should link the
two is subject to debate. But the fact that the product should be "Apache
Tomcat 5.0" not "Tomcat 5.0" is inarguable.
regards,
WILL
- Original Message -
From: "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that
we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
Any opinions?
-
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
Hi Kate,
I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June
2005 issue:
http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
There are two, very big, problems with this.
The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors,
it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the
heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc.
We would like to request that this be changed to:
Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
issue.
Thanks,
Henri Yandell
V.P., Apache Jakarta
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Sounds good +1 cheers -- Torsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
+1 On Mar 19, 2005, at 1:18 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday. Any opinions? - To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement Hi Kate, I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June 2005 issue: http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss". There are two, very big, problems with this. The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors, it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF). The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc. We would like to request that this be changed to: Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation) in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005 issue. Thanks, Henri Yandell V.P., Apache Jakarta -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "There 10 types of people: those who read binary and everyone else." - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leading Contributor?
Please don't feed the Trolls. - Original Message - From: "Davanum Srinivas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jakarta General List" Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:53 AM Subject: Re: Leading Contributor? Tim, This is a *VERY* slippery slope. All of us are committers at Apache on a personal basis and our employment is no bearing on our committer status. Remember, they (or anyone for that matter) else can fork Tomcat (and call it by any name they want and do whatever they want) if they crave publicity. IF they want to do joint publicity, they can of course contact the prc and make as much press releases to their heart's content. This is not the right way to do it. -- dims On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:55:43 -0500, Tim O'Brien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -Original Message- > From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yep, I think the only major request we can have here is that > it be called Apache Tomcat and not just Tomcat. The 'leading > Tomcat contributor' is just plain wrong, someone has been > listening to JBoss press releases. As far as I know, JBoss as > a company is not a contributor to the ASF, it merely employs > some people who happen to be. So we don't even have to focus > on the 'leading' as an issue, JBoss fail the 'contributor' too. > Henri, some of this is word mincing. The facts, as I see them, are that Jboss does employ individuals to work on Tomcat full-time. We shouldn't be discouraging this effort and, as long as we guarantee the product is called "Apache Tomcat", what harm is derived from noting that JBoss does contribute to the development of Tomcat? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is intended only for the use of the person(s) listed above as the intended recipient(s), and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not read, copy, or distribute this message or any attachment. If you received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and then delete all copies of this message and any attachments. In addition you should be aware that ordinary (unencrypted) e-mail sent through the Internet is not secure. Do not send confidential or sensitive information, such as social security numbers, account numbers, personal identification numbers and passwords, to us via ordinary (unencrypted) e-mail. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday. Any opinions? - To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement Hi Kate, I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June 2005 issue: http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss". There are two, very big, problems with this. The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors, it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF). The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc. We would like to request that this be changed to: Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation) in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005 issue. Thanks, Henri Yandell V.P., Apache Jakarta - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Leading Contributor?
Sending somethign to SD Magazine pronto seems a no-brainer as we have a chance of getting them to change it before they goto print with their June issue, though I may be being stupid there, June's issue might be hitting the stands next week for all I know. I'll work on sending something to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (as listed on the pdf) asap. As it's obviously a mistake on their part, I'll take a very informal, though official, approach in the email. I'm going to leave the JBoss parts of the issue to further discussion. Hen On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Jim Jagielski wrote: I've thought about this for a long time, and this is where I stand. As many people know, this has been a somewhat recurring issue, with JBoss blurring and obscuring the facts regarding Apache Tomcat, in such a way that it appears that they, JBoss, control and direct the development of Tomcat. Now the first handfull of times you could caulk it up to over-eager PR, etc, but the fact is that they have been sluggish in doing anything to clearly define what is reality... Tomcat is a JBoss Project? I think not. Yet, that is still what is prominently displayed. After too many times of this happening, and very, very limited response to our requests, one's normal reaction is to associate it with malicious intent. In other words, after awhile, one tends to feel that they are doing it on purpose. That may not be the case, but human nature being the way it is, people do get suspicious :) It's gotten to the point where there is real confusion among the general population, and even within some segments of the developer community, over whether Tomcat is an ASF project or a JBoss project. When it's strong enough to result in such misstatements such as this article headline, then the ASF needs to be rigorous in its protection of its brand and product. Same as if, for some reason, Sun were to start shipping Sun JEMS, we would reasonably expect JBoss to ask and demand Sun stop doing that. JBoss does hire a lot of developers, Tomcat and otherwise, and they should be warmly and honestly honored for doing that. Same as other companies such as Google, IBM, Covalent, Gluecode, etc should be. But the simple fact is that JBoss, as an entity, is not a contributor, leading or otherwise. All code committed is from the individual contributor, whether they are employed by JBoss or whoever. The fact that JBoss, or whoever, pays someone's salary and they contribute code to an ASF project, does NOT make the salary-payer a contributor, not in the normal definition. Contributions are from the individual, and they state that the code that they contribute is theirs to contribute. This is not to diminish in any way the real, valued fact that paying someone's salary allows them to develop more code. But it does not make that corporation a contributor. At the very least, a step in the right general direction would be a Corporate CLA. But again, the ASF recognizes contributions (code) from individuals, and code donations from corporations. So JBoss, as an entity, is not a contributor. And it goes without saying that the concept of "leading contributor" again flies against the grain of what the ASF is all about. When such basic tenets of the ASF and "the Apache way" are either willfully disregarded, or ignored out of ignorance, it makes one question how much a person or entity really understands and supports the ASF. Any entity that would describe itself as a leading contributor to an ASF project, really doesn't deserve the title since it displays a supreme lack of knowledge of how the ASF works. The adjectives such as "leading" or "core" or "main" when associated with the noun "developer" is never allowed in ASF project. Finally, there is the question of how this might damage the community. ASF projects are not one-man (or one-entity) shows; They are not opportunities for people or entities to jump up on a soapbox and grab the spotlight. Doing so causes extreme harm to the development community, again, something which anyone who claims to understand the ASF should know. No, JBoss is not unique with respect to any of these issues; we've all had things miss-quoted, or over-eager marketing people trying to "cash in" on our association and involvement with the ASF. But it is our job to do what we can to keep the story and the record straight. IMO, the Software Developer "Jolt" award information should be changed to remove the "leading contributor JBoss" tagline. Furthermore, it would be interesting to see if CMP ever bothered to contact the ASF regarding the award, for our feedback or comment, and how they determined the "leading contributor" assessment. PS: Much has been said about how we continue to refer to Tomcat as Tomcat, and not Apache Tomcat all the time. People point to our website and say, "You do it, why can't we?" Well, one reason why is because Tomcat is ours, we are referring to it on our website so if people associate Tomcat with the ASF, then that's fine. H
Re: Leading Contributor?
I've thought about this for a long time, and this is where I stand. As many people know, this has been a somewhat recurring issue, with JBoss blurring and obscuring the facts regarding Apache Tomcat, in such a way that it appears that they, JBoss, control and direct the development of Tomcat. Now the first handfull of times you could caulk it up to over-eager PR, etc, but the fact is that they have been sluggish in doing anything to clearly define what is reality... Tomcat is a JBoss Project? I think not. Yet, that is still what is prominently displayed. After too many times of this happening, and very, very limited response to our requests, one's normal reaction is to associate it with malicious intent. In other words, after awhile, one tends to feel that they are doing it on purpose. That may not be the case, but human nature being the way it is, people do get suspicious :) It's gotten to the point where there is real confusion among the general population, and even within some segments of the developer community, over whether Tomcat is an ASF project or a JBoss project. When it's strong enough to result in such misstatements such as this article headline, then the ASF needs to be rigorous in its protection of its brand and product. Same as if, for some reason, Sun were to start shipping Sun JEMS, we would reasonably expect JBoss to ask and demand Sun stop doing that. JBoss does hire a lot of developers, Tomcat and otherwise, and they should be warmly and honestly honored for doing that. Same as other companies such as Google, IBM, Covalent, Gluecode, etc should be. But the simple fact is that JBoss, as an entity, is not a contributor, leading or otherwise. All code committed is from the individual contributor, whether they are employed by JBoss or whoever. The fact that JBoss, or whoever, pays someone's salary and they contribute code to an ASF project, does NOT make the salary-payer a contributor, not in the normal definition. Contributions are from the individual, and they state that the code that they contribute is theirs to contribute. This is not to diminish in any way the real, valued fact that paying someone's salary allows them to develop more code. But it does not make that corporation a contributor. At the very least, a step in the right general direction would be a Corporate CLA. But again, the ASF recognizes contributions (code) from individuals, and code donations from corporations. So JBoss, as an entity, is not a contributor. And it goes without saying that the concept of "leading contributor" again flies against the grain of what the ASF is all about. When such basic tenets of the ASF and "the Apache way" are either willfully disregarded, or ignored out of ignorance, it makes one question how much a person or entity really understands and supports the ASF. Any entity that would describe itself as a leading contributor to an ASF project, really doesn't deserve the title since it displays a supreme lack of knowledge of how the ASF works. The adjectives such as "leading" or "core" or "main" when associated with the noun "developer" is never allowed in ASF project. Finally, there is the question of how this might damage the community. ASF projects are not one-man (or one-entity) shows; They are not opportunities for people or entities to jump up on a soapbox and grab the spotlight. Doing so causes extreme harm to the development community, again, something which anyone who claims to understand the ASF should know. No, JBoss is not unique with respect to any of these issues; we've all had things miss-quoted, or over-eager marketing people trying to "cash in" on our association and involvement with the ASF. But it is our job to do what we can to keep the story and the record straight. IMO, the Software Developer "Jolt" award information should be changed to remove the "leading contributor JBoss" tagline. Furthermore, it would be interesting to see if CMP ever bothered to contact the ASF regarding the award, for our feedback or comment, and how they determined the "leading contributor" assessment. PS: Much has been said about how we continue to refer to Tomcat as Tomcat, and not Apache Tomcat all the time. People point to our website and say, "You do it, why can't we?" Well, one reason why is because Tomcat is ours, we are referring to it on our website so if people associate Tomcat with the ASF, then that's fine. However, when it is used to confuse or dilute the fact that Tomcat is an ASF project, then it becomes an issue. I think it is clear that someone viewing the JBoss site would come away with the clear impression that Tomcat is developed by JBoss and is a JBoss project, not an ASF one. When that happens, it becomes our responsibility to remove that confusion and request (or demand, as the case may be) that Tomcat be referred to as Apache Tomcat. - To unsubscribe, e-
Re: Leading Contributor?
Davanum Srinivas wrote: > Tim, > > This is a *VERY* slippery slope. All of us are committers at Apache on > a personal basis and our employment is no bearing on our committer > status. Remember, they (or anyone for that matter) else can fork > Tomcat (and call it by any name they want and do whatever they want) > if they crave publicity. IF they want to do joint publicity, they can > of course contact the prc and make as much press releases to their > heart's content. This is not the right way to do it. Totally agree! ...there are other people working full-time on Apache projects. How do we decide which companies are worth being mentioned? ...let's better not go down that road cheers -- Torsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Leading Contributor?
Tim, This is a *VERY* slippery slope. All of us are committers at Apache on a personal basis and our employment is no bearing on our committer status. Remember, they (or anyone for that matter) else can fork Tomcat (and call it by any name they want and do whatever they want) if they crave publicity. IF they want to do joint publicity, they can of course contact the prc and make as much press releases to their heart's content. This is not the right way to do it. -- dims On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:55:43 -0500, Tim O'Brien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Yep, I think the only major request we can have here is that > > it be called Apache Tomcat and not just Tomcat. The 'leading > > Tomcat contributor' is just plain wrong, someone has been > > listening to JBoss press releases. As far as I know, JBoss as > > a company is not a contributor to the ASF, it merely employs > > some people who happen to be. So we don't even have to focus > > on the 'leading' as an issue, JBoss fail the 'contributor' too. > > > > Henri, some of this is word mincing. The facts, as I see them, are that > Jboss does employ individuals to work on Tomcat full-time. We shouldn't > be discouraging this effort and, as long as we guarantee the product is > called "Apache Tomcat", what harm is derived from noting that JBoss does > contribute to the development of Tomcat? > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Leading Contributor?
> -Original Message- > From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Yep, I think the only major request we can have here is that > it be called Apache Tomcat and not just Tomcat. The 'leading > Tomcat contributor' is just plain wrong, someone has been > listening to JBoss press releases. As far as I know, JBoss as > a company is not a contributor to the ASF, it merely employs > some people who happen to be. So we don't even have to focus > on the 'leading' as an issue, JBoss fail the 'contributor' too. > Henri, some of this is word mincing. The facts, as I see them, are that Jboss does employ individuals to work on Tomcat full-time. We shouldn't be discouraging this effort and, as long as we guarantee the product is called "Apache Tomcat", what harm is derived from noting that JBoss does contribute to the development of Tomcat? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
