RE: ASPizer
Thanks to all the people who came up with helpful suggestions, we'll be looking into our options. Paul. -Original Message- From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 4:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: ASPizer I've followed this thread with interest, I have to say that I think the move to open source for a product has to be independant of any other action. If you aren't commited to releasing your product under an open source licence without the support of Apache it does seem suspicious. If your OS project is a success well and good, if you can find some champions at Apache then thats cool too. If it fails, and no one will support you then at least you gave it your best shot. Either way you *still* have that product, its the rest of us who don't but I can't imagine Apache folks adopting a project without picking it to bits first. Look at the quality of the projects running now, in terms of engineering, design, and vision they are by and large second to none. (just my 2c) d. so - do it! create a new project at source force and pick a license. (if you retain the original copyright then you can always release the code again under a different license later if that becomes necessary.) i don't think that you'll get much joy here until people can see you're code. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
on 10/17/01 6:08 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the commitment we expect to make. I question that commitment. No, I'm not going to just take your word for it. That's fine, I have no problem responding to any reasonable questions. How can you commit to backing a project over the long term if your company can't get funding? When your company goes out of business, what interest will you have in developing this project over the long term? We have a viable consulting company, and we make money. The product development is something we have done when we see a need in the market, but we have no reliance on income from it. We had hoped to sell ASPizer through a partnership with a major software company, but that fell through. At this point, we don't feel that we can afford to hire a software sales staff and build a software company around it. As a result of this, we are interested in building a market through open source. We can afford to maintain a certain level of development on this product, and are willing to do so. I'm not sure how you expect us to prove that, though. You need to realize that the 5 years that I have been around here, I have seen about 30-40 people just like you who come with some great project that they want to see survive beyond their company who want to give us the great pleasure of hosting for them so that they can maybe get some interest in it because no one was willing to buy it. We already have enough baggage around the Jakarta project. I think that adding any new projects is going to have to be carefully considered. The primary consideration is whether or not the project coming in has a developer and user community around it. The reason is because it will be these people who have to support the project long after the lead developers or the company that created it disappeared. The problem is that few people around here have been around for as long as I have so they have a very small understanding of the amount of crap that we have accumulated and gone through over the years. As a result, we have really closed our doors to new projects that have no community before they come here. Simply because we don't want to become a sourceforget.net (which is where I would have recommended you to go in the first place instead of pointing you at this list). These points are well taken. How come you haven't put the source code out there under an OSS license yet so that we can look at it before we decide to begin to even consider it? Sorry, but I'm pretty new to the whole open source approach. We can look into other options and see what the best way to do this is. We're not looking to dump something on anyone. Paul. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
Whatever Jon is or isn't is not my place to say, but I think I was pretty clear that we are NOT looking to dump a project on Apache, that we ARE continuing to work on ASPizer and support it, and have described the commitment we expect to make. Now, if anyone wants to look more closely at the product and make some informed comments, we'll be happy to share information. I will not be responding to inane trolls. Paul. On Wed, 17 October 2001, Ceki Gulcu wrote: Endre, Although Jon might not be the most politically-correct person around, he is usually right. Jon is correct to observe that Jakarta is not a dumping ground for .bomb projects. I am very grateful to Jon for having the courage to speak up his mind. One might be crititical of Jon but he remains a cornerstone of Jakarta. Keep that mind before calling him ungracious parts of the body. On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: | on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond | sooner. | | A few comments: | | ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used | on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a pr oduct by THBS, with the | intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such | as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining | venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is | to continue in that direction. | | We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. Why are you such an _asshole_ on mailing lists, Jon?? I just cannot believe your emails. They are such shit shometimes, it is just amazing! Go Jon, Go Jon, Go Jon, Go JOOON!!! YEAH! Endre. -- Mvh, Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! http://www.shopping.altavista.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ASPizer
On Wed, 17 October 2001, Jon Stevens wrote: Let me point out that I tried tact the first time I responded: There is nothing in your proposal discussion WHY you would want to give this to the ASF other than because you think you have a cool product. Nor is there anything that suggests what the developer community is like (ie: people who would be working on the product) nor the user community and the people who would be responsible for supporting the user community. It didn't seem to get through to the guy so I brought it up a notch. -jon Actually, I responded to all your points, then you decided it was time to insult us, at which point it no longer seemed worthwhile responding to you at all. Fortunately, not everyone on the list has the same attitude problem. Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping! http://www.shopping.altavista.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Let me quote you: However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that direction. And: We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis. If you don't have the money to fund development of the product, then how are you going to have money to keep several engineers working on it and supporting it? You keep contradicting yourself. I've already responded to that. You jumped to an incorrect conclusion, and attacked without even atttempting to get clarification. Even still, that doesn't deal with the issues surrounding the need to have an established community as well as even letting us look at the code base (I care if the code and design is good or not). Sorry, I don't ever recall you asking to see the code or the design. We have sent design docs to someone from Apache who was interested enough to ask for them. Established Communities don't suddenly appear full-fledged from nowhere - we have developers to seed a community, all we are doing is looking to see if there is interest in the product. Why are you so threatened by this ? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond sooner. A few comments: ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a product by THBS, with the intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that direction. We do think that ASPizer is an interesting product that has a strong synergy with some existing Apache technologies. We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis. As far as getting an Apache champion, I'm not sure how we go about that - I was hoping someone would be interested enough to follow up based on the proposal that we submitted. As far as the user community is concerned, we believe that there are two primary groups - 1. ASP related companies, including ISVs developing for the ASP market, Aggregators who assemble packages of applications, and Hosting providers, 2. Corporate users that run internal IT in an ASP-like way, or who have external clients accessing their systems (we have had preliminary discussions with a couple of the latter). We would be able to support early-adopter clients during the initial period of the product being made available, we are willing to commit to at least two years. ASPizer may have some overlap with Turbine, but it is quite a different product. My understanding is that Turbine is basically a tool to help developers build web applications, whereas ASPizer is more of a platform extension. With ASPizer it is possible to configure an application to run in an ASP model, including security, billing and licensing, without actually changing the application at all (so in fact you can even ASPize a non-J2EE application), although using the APIs provides a much more granular set of facilities. We are also currently working on making ASPizer available as a set of web services. We will be happy to provide code and documentation for anyone who is interested in digging deeper. Paul. _ Paul Ilechko Principal Architect Torry Harris Business Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 5:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Ilechko Cc: Ranjit Mathew; Arnab Ghosh Subject: Re: Tomcat extensions for ASPs Hi, The general rule of thumb for this sort of thing is that the project must have at least 3 developers involved and at least one champion from Apache to kickstart it. The reason for this is is that we need some way to guarenteee that the project will be a success and that there will still be developers involved with in a years or twos time. So you need to include this sort of information in your proposal. It would also be good to contrast it with existing Apache projects. ie How does it compare to something like turbine? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ASPizer
Tbanks for the constructive criticism, Jon. Paul. -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Ranjit Mathew; Arnab Ghosh Subject: Re: ASPizer on 10/15/01 11:15 AM, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter and Jon, thanks for the feedback, sorry I didn't get a chance to respond sooner. A few comments: ASPizer is currently a production quality product, and in fact is being used on a live website in the UK. It was developed as a product by THBS, with the intention that we would sell it. However, due to various economic factors such as the decline in the ASP market and the recent difficulties in obtaining venture capital, we have decided that at this time it is not feasible for is to continue in that direction. We aren't a dumping ground for .bomb projects. We do think that ASPizer is an interesting product that has a strong synergy with some existing Apache technologies. We intend to continue to provide development support, and we have no problem to committing 3 developers in an ongoing basis. As far as getting an Apache champion, I'm not sure how we go about that - I was hoping someone would be interested enough to follow up based on the proposal that we submitted. Exactly. As far as the user community is concerned, we believe that there are two primary groups - 1. ASP related companies, including ISVs developing for the ASP market, Aggregators who assemble packages of applications, and Hosting providers, 2. Corporate users that run internal IT in an ASP-like way, or who have external clients accessing their systems (we have had preliminary discussions with a couple of the latter). We would be able to support early-adopter clients during the initial period of the product being made available, we are willing to commit to at least two years. I'm confused. How can you commit two years when you can't get funding for your business? ASPizer may have some overlap with Turbine, but it is quite a different product. My understanding is that Turbine is basically a tool to help developers build web applications, whereas ASPizer is more of a platform extension. With ASPizer it is possible to configure an application to run in an ASP model, including security, billing and licensing, without actually changing the application at all (so in fact you can even ASPize a non-J2EE application), although using the APIs provides a much more granular set of facilities. We are also currently working on making ASPizer available as a set of web services. The use of the term 'security' is very broad in your example. BTW, I wrote an ASPizer as well...it is called Noodle. LOL! http://noodle.tigris.org :-) We will be happy to provide code and documentation for anyone who is interested in digging deeper. Good luck. :-) -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
FW: FW: FW: [Fwd: Tomcat extensions for ASPs]
Forwarded as per Peter Donald's suggestion .. see attachment. (Changed to plain text) ___ Paul Ilechko Principal Architect Torry Harris Business Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thbs.com -Original Message- From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 10:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Ilechko Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FW: FW: [Fwd: Tomcat extensions for ASPs] On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:13, Paul Ilechko wrote: Please find attached a proposal to Open Source a product that we have developed, called ASPizer. Proposals are done on general@jakarta list now. You should also send it in plain text (or at worst HTML) because there are those who can't read this. Paul. -Original Message- From: Apache Software Foundation [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 8:37 AM To: Paul Ilechko Subject: Re: FW: [Fwd: Tomcat extensions for ASPs] * On 2001-09-27 at 09:48, Paul Ilechko [EMAIL PROTECTED] excited the electrons to say: Please let me know how we should proceed on this, The best path would be to send a proposal to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc me, and let me know if no-one gets back to you within a week. -- #ken P-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ All right everyone! Step away from the glowing hamburger! -- Cheers, Pete -- Don't play dumb with me. I happen to be an expert at that - Maxwell Smart -- Background Torry Harris Business Solutions is interested in making our ASPizer product available to the open source community. This is a product that was originally developed as a base platform for developing applications to run in an ASP (Application Service Provider) model. It was designed to include features that provided support for all the different players that make up this marketplace. These included Independent Software Vendors, Aggregators and Hosting Providers. We later came to the realization that a similar model actually exists within many large companies, where different groups are responsible for developing, integrating and hosting applications, and where there may well be internal charge back mechanisms in place that mirror the licensing and billing mechanisms that are needed for the ASP world. Value of ASPizer ASPizer is designed to run on top of a J2EE application server. An application server provides a low level platform on which to develop custom applications, and frameworks such as Struts can help with the ability to develop applications based on good design practices. However, most applications can benefit greatly from an additional set of common services that are not currently available in application servers. ASPizer is designed to provide this set of common services in a highly flexible and customizable manner. ASPizer has been written completely in Java and has been tested on Windows, Linux, AIX and Solaris. It supports IBM WebSphere, BEA Weblogic and Jakarta Tomcat and connects to IBM DB2, Oracle and Sybase. Services Provided ASPizer services can be divided into two sets - Front End and Back End services. Front End services are typically transparent to the developer, and are based around adding quality of service to the application. Back End services are typically accessible by the developer using the provided API. Most services can be configured using the supplied administration tool. Front End Services Routing - The router service dynamically locates an application instance for a user based on a number of criteria including the specific request, the applicable security constraints, the Service Level Agreement (SLA) applicable for the user, the existence of failures in application instances, etc. A variety of SLA configurations can be defined to address different levels of reliability and availability, potentially at different cost structures. Security - This service deals with securing access to applications and application sub-functions. It provides a single-sign on to the ASPizer site. Security in ASPizer is role based - users are assigned roles, which are then allowed access to a set of resources. Security configuration is done using the ASPizer administration tool. Access to security configuration information is made available via a security API to the application programmer - this can be used to implement finer grain access controls. Global Sessions - The global session service allows applications to share a user session. This is extremely useful for tight integration of applications - the shared session eliminates duplicate information entry and can be used to pass data between applications. This can be contrasted with the Java Servlet 2.2 specification
