Re: [VOTE] Merge dev lists
-1 As explained before. Only subscribed to 1 project. If consolidation on dev happens then there will be no good way to filter out emails I don't care about. Same here. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@jakarta.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] One development list
Care to elaborate a bit? I'd argue that for the people who care it's no big deal to subscribe to the various lists. So tuning in is no problem, tuning out once consolidated indeed is. It's an all-or-nothing. How is oversight better when everyone (or at least all PMC members) are subscribed to all dev list as opposed to just the one? While the one dev list might work OK for Commons I have the feeling that these projects are just too different. In Commons one could imagine to step up for another component. I don't see that with the rest that is left at jakarta. If there are many cross-posting (that would be a sign for cross-concerns) I haven't noticed any. At least I don't see the benefits of a consolidation. I would rather ask all PMC members to subscribe to all dev list than merging the lists. Not to talk about the mailing list archive confusions and hassle this might create. but well - that's just my opinion and the -1 should not be blocking. Just saying that I don't like the idea. cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@jakarta.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] One development list
We currently have 8 active development lists at Jakarta, each devoted to a subproject. I've been subscribed to all for a while and based on my observations and the overall benefits of doing so, I think its time to consolidate them into a single development list at Jakarta. ... Thoughts? Not at fan. -1 cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Commons is TLP
On 21.06.2007, at 00:57, Martin van den Bemt wrote: Hi everyone, The new Commons TLP was established today, with Torsten Curdt as Vice President. ...so where do we start with the TLP move is the question :) cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
so this thread died again without a conclusion or resulution.
My take with as few words as possible:
* push for active project to go TLP
* jakarta.apache.org - the portal to all java projects at apache.
Just a shell - but let's keep the brand. Not necessarily a PMC
required. (Although a non-code project trying to improve
collaboration between java projects would be an idea to discuss)
* ${commons}.apache.org - as people have concerns about the name (as
there is more than java) let's find a new one.
- commonsj
- jcommons
- ...
* dormant.apache.org - maybe a place where we put not just old stuff
from jakarta
cheers
--
Torsten
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Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP
+1 On 08.05.2007, at 19:20, Henri Yandell wrote: Sadly a bit too late to make the next board meeting I suspect. However, here's a vote for Commons to officially request that it move to TLP. http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-commons/TLPResolution Please add your name if you're a Commons developer and haven't added your name yet. [ ] +1 I support the proposal [ ] +0 I don't care [ ] -1 I'm opposed to the proposal because... Voting will close in one week. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
bugzilla administration
http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=40577 How can I add new version to bugzilla? Who has admin rights on bugzilla? cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: bugzilla administration
On 10.03.2007, at 16:13, Torsten Curdt wrote: http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=40577 ups ...wrong bug :) but anyway! How can I add new version to bugzilla? Who has admin rights on bugzilla? ...thanks to Martin Cooper all done now :) cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Move Velocity to TLP
+1 cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Jakarta BOF @ apachecon USA
Would it be possible to have it on Monday or Tuesday or is there another firm date for BOFs ? I reckon let's better not make the official BOF on Mon/Tue as probably most people (users) arrive on Wed. We should give them a chance to join us as well ...but we can still go for a beer/food on Mon/Tue ;-) cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Opening up the PMC
Why that combination? ...feels quite unnatural to me - I am sure so it will for the users. It's our list of small largely inactive subprojects. We know that none of those are going to go TLP, and their dev lists are quiet by an order of magnitude compared to an inactive TLP potential project like Slide. True ...but that grouping is not obvious to the users. Besides conditions *could* change. Combining mailinglist would definitely get a -1 from me. I don't want the few BCEL subscribers left to unsubscribe because they get annoyed because they are receiving mails they are not interested in. We might get away with that at commons - but in general I think it's quite a bad idea. We've a bunch of relatively small codebases and subprojects that on their own are a stretch to maintain oversight over. It's a match for the Commons approach of having those communities share the same space and help each other on general issue topics, such as releases. Well, oversight does not really apply to the users. Besides developers could subscribe to all sub projects list. We could even ask comitters or at least PMC members to subscribe to all of them to achieve the same kind of oversight. ...it would just be more convenient for the users. IMO rather have it too fine grained and combine than too general and you are stuck with what you don't want. cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Opening up the PMC
The problem with moving Commons up is that when you look at where Jakarta needs to go, and when you look at where Commons generally is now; they are the same places - and it's hard to distinguish between the focuses. Hm... interesting... funnily I have never seen it like that before. Always had the impression jakarta is for products while commons is for libraries. Sometimes it's just not that clear where to draw the line though. Jakarta needs a way to blend community oversight with small numbers of active committers per component. That's pretty much Commons. For a start, I would merge BCEL, BSF, ECS, JCS, ORO and Regexp dev lists into either [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why that combination? ...feels quite unnatural to me - I am sure so it will for the users. Combining mailinglist would definitely get a -1 from me. I don't want the few BCEL subscribers left to unsubscribe because they get annoyed because they are receiving mails they are not interested in. We might get away with that at commons - but in general I think it's quite a bad idea. 1) BCEL, BSF, ECS, JCS, ORO and Regexp dev lists merging 2) Alexandria dies 3) POI to TLP 4) Consider merging user lists from 1) 5) Flatten HttpComponents, Velocity, Taglibs. Some mad ideas :) Sorry that I have to agree with the last sentence in some extend ;-) cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Opening up the PMC
Just a few comments (as I am a bit late) At Cocoon every committer can join the PMC by just asking for it. The idea is that committer do care and shape the project anyway. If you don't care enough about the project - why would you be a committer? We are quite open and were working out most of the things on the dev list anyway. This seems to work pretty well for the Cocoon community. ...well, now with Jakarta this is a little different situation - as stated before it's an umbrella project. Which actually makes the position of the PMC a bit more complicated ...why should a committer to commons have an impact on the direction of e.g. hivemind. So maybe we need to be a bit more selective for the PMC members (as we are). Maybe. But if you argue into that direction -no matter how often this has been discussed already- I would rather question the idea of an umbrella PMC then... (*ducks*) cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ApacheCon] jakarta (commons) beer chitchat
Guys, There are rumours people are interested in a beer chitchat BOF kind of thing :) Say tonight 8pm at the bar? cheers -- Torsten PS: Please respond on [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Need feedback on BCEL 5.2 RC2
...if you are using BCEL it would be great if you could give the latest RC a test run. We would like to release BCEL 5.2 ASAP but we are still lacking some feedback. http://people.apache.org/~tcurdt/bcel/rc2/ http://vafer.org/blog/20060429164701 cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox
However Jakarta-sandbox is SCOPELESS. Go have a scopeless sandbox on sourceforge IMO. If you want to start a whole NEW project then do that in the incubator IMO. Why on sourceforge - why not on our infrastructure? What the difference for you? You want every tiny (commons) library go through the incubator? ...or do you just don't want full projects sneak in through that sandbox? So far I don't understand why you are seeing this so problematic. cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Managing communities and emails (was Re: [PROPOSAL] Jakarta Language Components)
i like the idea of tagging emails better: a single list with cool server side filtering and metrics. we don't have the technology for this yet so i'm willing to see the mailing lists split so long as people would be willing to consider coming back if it every arrives... I was just considering proposing exactly this! A joke turns into something serious ...but I am all with you guys. As I said: the more I think about it - the more I like the idea! The another really cool feature with this tagging approach would be that cross-posting would no longer need to be banned - it would just not exist. A set of checkboxes would allow a user to subscribe to various lists, or to virtual groupings such as jakarta commons which would implicitly subscribe to the list for every project that is tagged as being a jakarta-commons project. Of course this implies fine-grained email lists (ie one for each project); the problems of partitioning the subscriber base too much is avoided by the existence of the groupings. Yepp! This system would allow overlapping groups to occur; for example commons-digester can be filed under both commons and xml virtual groups; someone subscribing to *either* group would receive digester-related emails. It also allows projects to move from one PMC to another without destroying the existing community (which *is* the set of people receiving emails). Great possibilites Groups also allow new projects to be created and added to the group; all people subscribed to the group would then automatically get emails related to that new project. Any list which has less than 3 subscribers would automatically forward its emails to the PMC list (or similar) for purposes of oversight. interesting Any person subscribed to 3 or more projects associated with commons would automatically be subscribed to the whole commons group (or maybe just sent a weekly nag email recommending they do so). That hopefully allows casual commons developers to get just postings for one or two projects, without destroying the useful commons-wide community that exists now. Having a single point for managing subscriptions would also help greatly with something that regularly frustrates me: suspending subscription when I'm away on holiday. Currently, I need to unsubscribe to half-a-dozen lists then resubscribe on return. Yepp! Another thing that would be awesome is to integrate it with a powerful archive system ...and then provide feeds for all the different tag combinations - and even individual threads! Man - that would be awesome! This sort of functionality probably already exists in one of the open-source mailing list management packages; it isn't anything radical as far as I can see. Now we only have to find such a project and then convince infrastructure ...regarding the forums - na. What does that help? I hate the fact I always have to subscribe to forums and never liked the interfaces. cheers -- Torsten smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Managing communities and emails (was Re: [PROPOSAL] Jakarta Language Components)
On 15.03.2006, at 10:10, Thomas Dudziak wrote: On 3/14/06, Torsten Curdt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...regarding the forums - na. What does that help? Judging from myself, users don't like to have to subscribe to mailing lists, especially when they don't need the list on a daily basis. E.g. I would hate to get every question and answer in the Spring forums as mail. I'd much rather check the forums every once in a while. Use Gmane ;) I am too lazy to always go and check forums. With the tagging approach you would only have to really subscribe once. ...and as I said - having feeds would be awesome. I hate the fact I always have to subscribe to forums and never liked the interfaces. You misunderstood: Patrick told me that the 'special' feature of the system that they use at OpenQA is that it can be used both as a mailing list (e.g. for the developers) and a forum (for the users if you want). Therefore, you'd register at a mailing list just as before and have nothing to do at all with the forum-view, but users could instead use the forum (and thus won't get all the - for them - noise). And the system automatically maps between the mailing list and the forum. I think what you are basically saying is you want a poll not a push service. IMO feeds are much better for that than a forum. But of course you could combine all these things. cheers -- Torsten smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [PROPOSAL] Two community proposals
On 05.03.2006, at 20:21, Henri Yandell wrote: I started to write a long email on the problems in Jakarta, on umbrellas, on the lack of a Jakarta community and existence only of subcommunities and on how it should be there is no Jakarta Xxxx, you are members of Jakarta - not a subproject; but you've heard it all before. So, proposal: - Given that we are one project and that we should be acting as one community - I propose that we: 1) Remove SVN restrictions, all Jakarta committers can commit anywhere in Jakarta, with the exception of the Commons-Sandbox as it allows Apache committers in general to commit. So a Commons committer can commit to e.g. BCEL and Hivemind without knowing the code bases? H That doesn't sound right to me :-/ TBH Jakarta feels less as one community ...but more like an umbrella. Do you want to change that? cheers -- Torsten smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Representing project inactivity on the site
BCEL - In need of a bugfix release, design-wise ASM is preferrable. Almost there :) ...still a few bugs to close cheers -- Torsten smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
last modified
Guys,
I hope this is not too OT for this list but I
am running out of ideas. What could be possibly
be wrong with the following piece of code:
import java.io.File;
public class test {
public static void main(String[] args) throws Exception {
File dir = new File(dir);
dir.mkdir();
long m = dir.lastModified();
File subdir = new File(dir, subdir);
subdir.mkdir();
while(dir.lastModified() == m) {
Thread.sleep(1000);
System.out.print('.');
}
subdir.delete();
dir.delete();
}
}
To me it seems like the last modified
is not being updated (even if I re-create
the File object) unless the directory
gets touched *outside* the jvm.
Anyone aware of this problem?
cheers
--
Torsten
PGP.sig
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: last modified
This might have to do something with the timestamp resolution of the filesystem. Not every filesystem have a resolution of milliseconds but some higher factor. Yeah, Brett already pointed offlist me on that. It gets ever worse e.g 10ms for FAT on create but 2sec for write (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/ fileio/fs/setting_and_getting_the_timestamp_of_a_file.asp) To be cross platform dont expect more than 2sec. Bad news, isnt it? Ouch! Hmm... need to think about what implications this might have for the jci monitor... Mario PS: After some googling I found it might be worth to collect those precision and create a web page with them. Sounds like a good idea Thanks -- Torsten PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: List moderation
we're moving towards insisting on pgp keys so we could check and moderate through all signed apache.org email without danger. You mean forcing all subscribers to use gpg Although I love the idea of forcing people to sign their mails http://vafer.org/blog/tcurdt/archives/93.html http://vafer.org/blog/tcurdt/archives/000174.html I fear there is no way we can get away with that. This would leave open for moderation only a few broad lists (for instance [EMAIL PROTECTED], which I have the pleasure to moderate :-( ), killing a lot of wasted hours. Also, FYI, joes2 is doing some info gathering on moderation request to aid us in filtering incoming moderation spam. See irc://irc.freenode.net/#asfinfra for more info. Language is english for all lists. Filtering out mails with all kinds of weird characters would be a first step. Still wondering why we don't have that already. i've been wondering for a while whether it'd be better to move towards bots and some sort of web app for smarter collaborative moderation. (one moderators marks a message as spam and all identical ones are automatically rejected from all pending lists.) That would be much better ...but it's also quite an effort to set this up. I just don't know whether it's worth it for those few cross postings cheers -- Torsten PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Jakarta - Cleaning house
Finish SVN migrations (Turbine-3, POI, JMeter, Cactus) Turbine-3 should go from CVS to the graveyard. No detour through SVN please. AFAIU (not totally sure) all projects need to migrated to CVS by the end of the year because CVS is meant to go away. If we want it to be still available we need to migrate it, too. cheers -- Torsten PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: List moderation
Hi, I've been a moderator for the bcel-dev@jakarta.apache.org and bcel-user@jakarta.apache.org for a few months now. In that time there have been 2 valid emails from people who weren't subscribed, and a few thousand spam mails. I'm rather tired of being a human spam filter for the mailing list. As the ratio of bad to good emails is so high, I suggest that all mails from unsubscribed users simply be discarded making moderation unnecessary. What's the general opinion about this? The question is why do we use moderation at all? I can see only the reason of cross-posting which is discouraged anyway ...and still could be done by people who are subscribed to both lists. ...so I am with you on this cheers -- Torsten PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Tracking commons component liveliness
I have a big problem with putting people's names beside projects and components on a public web page. Besides being yet another thing that needs to be kept up to date, it will only encourage people to contact the developers directly, instead of using the mailing lists. From my own perspective, this is a huge problem already, and I'd be -1 to anything that's going to further exacerbate it. ...in general I find the idea not too bad. But Martin is right - putting names to projects is bad in general. What about a slight modification - what if every jakarta sandbox committer is required to report back to the *PMC* what sandbox he is working on? (lazy feedback of course. no feedback not working on anything) ...the PMC will sort out the statistic internally. Since project oversight is one of the duties of the PMC ...I think it would make sense. WDYT? cheers -- Torsten PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Name for commons-like area for web
Probably needs to be discussed. please, please no sub-sub-projects! ...just a theoretical option. But I guess you are right ;) cheers -- Torsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Name for commons-like area for web
What's wrong with Webapp Commons? Commons = Jakarta Commons ...for a whole bunch of people. As long as it is not under the Jakarta Commons umbrella like Jakarta Commons Web I would be clearly against using the word commons. Actually if it is meant to be java only it could even fit well into the jakarta commons project. ...IMO cheers -- Torsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Name for commons-like area for web
The most obvious would be CommonsWeb or WebCommons, as the general user community could link the concept to commons easily enough. However, there is a danger that it could be confusing precisely because of that. As long as it is not under the umbrella of the Jakarta Commons project I would avaoid the term Commons. I think I like WebLibs the best. cheers -- Torsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Please, lets calm the things down. Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth will still spin tomorrow. ...that's an excellent ending for this discussion :) Thanks -- Torsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work). I am sure the community is thankful for the individual contributions and therefor is also thankful for the companies letting their employees spend time for working on Apache projects. But... Usually companies don't let their employees spend so much time (and therefor money) just for the good of mankind. Usually they have an interest in fixing certain things because they want to benefit from a product being developed and maintained by a large number of developers they *don't* have to pay. As a matter of fact we have quite some committers in our community that are sponsored by the companies they are working for. Who is able to define whether who is the leading or main contributor? I would not want to risk picking the wrong one and pissing off other contributors. So either name them all or drop this classification. Terms like main or leading are a problem. Naming them all for such an award is very inappropriate IMO. No problem listing all the companies that contribute to a certain project somewhere. A contributors file ...or even on the website. But refering to JBoss as the main contributor is not in the spirit of the community IMO. So that's why we should ask for the change. Assuming JBoss will respect the community this should be no problem at all ...and be no reason to reevaluate the involvement. cheers -- Torsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Sounds good +1 cheers -- Torsten signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Dormancy worries
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I share your concerns. Same here! ...there was a poll about how many active committers are around on bcel-dev. IIRC *one* responded. Other than that there are just users around waiting for patches being applied or just lurking. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bcel-devm=110294999712414w=2 The general question is what to do with such projects, and I think we should be open to creative ideas. The question is whether those projects maybe missed to nominate some more committers? ...maybe it would be worth looking into the patch queue? Not applying patches is also one way to make people go away. There has been some suggestion that they be cleaned up by migrating them to some other domain to be mothballed. The code, web site, and mailing list archives would be preserved, and could be restored at such time in the future when a community might arise. Hmm... the question is whether we really *can* mothballing them. IMHO too many projects rely on them. It's an important piece of technology. At least bugfixes need to be applied. FWICS migration costs (e.g. to asm) are fairly high. There *are* people that have patches in the queue. BCEL and BSF both seem to be in danger of having no actual Apache community I only know about BCEL ...but that's for sure a danger I see too! cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: new sandbox projects
Any Apache committer can have sandbox karma just for the asking. The only complication is that the committer will need to get the jakarta unix group, so it'll take us a little bit longer to add karma. Any voting needed for the sandbox components? Otherwise it would be great if I could get access to the sandbox so I can move the stuff over. cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
new sandbox projects
Hey, folks! Over at cocoon we have some code that might be worth sharing on jakarta commons. So I was wondering if the sandbox is open to any committer or only to jakarta committers? (which I am not) I heard different stories... I factored out our javaflow (java continuations) implementation and a java compiler interface (jci) featuring a compiling classloader. Any opinions on hosting that at jakarta commons? Or should we keep that stuff under our umbrella? cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
support for native java continuations
We'd like to invite everyone who is interested to join our initiative on codehaus.org. We are aiming to write and submit a JSR for native java continuations support inside the JVM. We are currently looking for people that have any kind of expertise in the continuations field or just like to support the effort by any means. Please subscribe by sending a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] all post will have to go to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please spread the word, Thanks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: support for native java continuations
Just curious: Why is this not developed under the Apache Incubator? Is there a reason for the codehaus move? We already have a first implementation based on java byte code transformation (via BCEL) in Cocoon. But this initiative is aiming for a JSR that hopefully give us native support - one day... Actually there is no particular reason for codehaus. They were just very quick setting everything up :) Besides it's only for collaboration on the JSR. So there should be no code involved. cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: support for native java continuations
I am probably ignorant, but what are continuations? Hope these links help to get the picture... http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/userdocs/flow/continuations.html http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/userdocs/flow/ http://vafer.org/blog/tcurdt/archives/48.html http://vafer.org/blog/tcurdt/archives/50.html http://www.ai.mit.edu/~gregs/ll1-discuss-archive-html/msg00501.html http://rifers.org/downloads/rife/rife_fosdem.pdf cheers -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
jelly releases
Is there a particular reason why the jelly release is hosted on ibiblio.org? (No nagging - just curious) -- Torsten - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
