Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
Kevin Burton wrote: > > I think we are just on the classic "slippery slope". It will probably > get worse before there is uniform acceptance that it exists. Or that it splits. One could easily imagine that a database and related projects merits its own PMC. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 James Duncan Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Thursday, July 26, 2001, at 03:50 PM, burtonator wrote: > > > I might agree with that. But IMO we have a lot of things that are out of > > scope? > > Ant? James? Log4J? Regexp? Come on? Don't get me wrong.. I LOVE those > > projects but I think that a DB is more in-scope than they are :) > > > > You're right. I think out of the current set of Jakarta projects there are many > out of scope. I think that they should live somewhere else. I've argued > unsuccessfully about this before -- and gave up. But just because we have warts > doesn't mean we should add more. I think we are just on the classic "slippery slope". It will probably get worse before there is uniform acceptance that it exists. Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Cell: 408-910-6145 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596 They have the guns, money, and press but we have the technology! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE7YocLAwM6xb2dfE0RAjC1AJ4vHoQFRys0UVL8MrNl2vylj5gnYwCfRxAt anAIdUY/2xPhzSgUnt8s+70= =8vm4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
On Thursday, July 26, 2001, at 03:50 PM, burtonator wrote: > I might agree with that. But IMO we have a lot of things that are out > of scope? > Ant? James? Log4J? Regexp? Come on? Don't get me wrong.. I LOVE > those > projects but I think that a DB is more in-scope than they are :) > You're right. I think out of the current set of Jakarta projects there are many out of scope. I think that they should live somewhere else. I've argued unsuccessfully about this before -- and gave up. But just because we have warts doesn't mean we should add more. mho. :) James Duncan Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED] !try; do(); - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 James Duncan Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Tuesday, July 24, 2001, at 04:30 PM, GOMEZ Henri wrote: > > > And after all sourceforge is now a really good area > > to host OpenSource projects (java and others). > > This isn't Sourceforge. I'm actually *not* in favor of bringing a database under > the Jakarta umbrella. It's out of scope in my opinion -- > and scope creep is a problem that we've been facing for a long time. I might agree with that. But IMO we have a lot of things that are out of scope? Ant? James? Log4J? Regexp? Come on? Don't get me wrong.. I LOVE those projects but I think that a DB is more in-scope than they are :) Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Cell: 408-910-6145 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596 For great justice. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE7YJ6xAwM6xb2dfE0RAkBaAJ9Lxb8+6H8Hs3rhHm7dj5CAJANsAACggXjo /npRoQvRJ9OXAZ6ZtGKZXGU= =d6RR -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
on 7/25/01 1:38 PM, "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > burtonator at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >>> But they haven't approached us... And I believe the first step should be >>> done by them.. >> >> >> Not according to them. They said that they approached Jakarta about 1 - 1.5 >> years ago. >> >> Of course that was a LONG time ago :) > > :) Then it was when I was doing stuff over in XML land... Dunno about > that... Jon? :) > > Pier I remember a brief approach, but like Kevin said...that was a LONG time ago...if they want to come now, then have them join this list and write a proposal. Pier is still right...unless a PMC member takes the initiative (like I did with Lucene...and that will still happen someday), then it really isn't our job. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
James Duncan Davidson wrote: > This isn't Sourceforge. I'm actually *not* in favor of bringing a > database under the Jakarta umbrella. It's out of scope in my opinion -- > and scope creep is a problem that we've been facing for a long time. It's tempting to say, well a lot of our in-scope projects, like JetSpeed and Turbine and Struts, would like to ship examples that use a DBMS, and it would be convenient to ship them with a Jakarta DBMS. Just as it is convenient to ship our products with a tool like Ant. But, that's "Not Invented Here" syndrome talking. We invite others to be dependent on our OSS products, that they may not control, and we should be prepared to do the same. We ship products that use HSQL now, and there's no reason why we can't continue to do that, whether it's ASF or not. If a Java DBMS project came along, with a team that was already imbued with the Apache spirit, then maybe we should talk about it. But, like Pier said, going out and finding a DBMS for the sake of having a DBMS is borg. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Custom Software ~ Technical Services. -- Tel 716 737-3463. -- http://www.husted.com/about/struts/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
On Tuesday, July 24, 2001, at 04:30 PM, GOMEZ Henri wrote: > And after all sourceforge is now a really good area > to host OpenSource projects (java and others). This isn't Sourceforge. I'm actually *not* in favor of bringing a database under the Jakarta umbrella. It's out of scope in my opinion -- and scope creep is a problem that we've been facing for a long time. It may be something that the wider ASF wants to consider. And that's something for [EMAIL PROTECTED] But even then, I'd still not be in favor of it. Apache has got enough on its plate for a while. Part of my reasoning comes from watching people treat the fact that a project is at Apache as an endorsement. Others doing projects want to get affiliated with Apache for that reason -- and sometimes that reason alone. Apache should do things that Apache wants to do James Duncan Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED] !try; do(); - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
burtonator at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> But they haven't approached us... And I believe the first step should be >> done by them.. > > > Not according to them. They said that they approached Jakarta about 1 - 1.5 > years ago. > > Of course that was a LONG time ago :) :) Then it was when I was doing stuff over in XML land... Dunno about that... Jon? :) Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > GOMEZ Henri at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > I totally agree and I'll be more than happy to see hsql > > in jakarta. > > But they haven't approached us... And I believe the first step should be > done by them.. Not according to them. They said that they approached Jakarta about 1 - 1.5 years ago. Of course that was a LONG time ago :) - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Cell: 408-910-6145 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596 I would rather live with a certain amount of private terrorism than with government totalitarianism. -- Harvey Silvergate -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE7XpNfAwM6xb2dfE0RAmlJAJ0YDFOl7xMcZwH54dnBrBupbCrQPACcDYLR IaJa3WjmEE9SEYoWmDKezUM= =joCq -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Project idea (Hypersonic)
>I'm pretty happy with our little niche on Apache... And again, >let's try not >to get off-topic :) ok, end of thread :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
GOMEZ Henri at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> Sometimes competition in similar (or same) projects >>> became a sane emulation (Pier knows what I mean :) >> >> We're not competing with HSQL... > > I don't speak of HSQL Pier :) Well, I am, and Kevin is... Our disagreements on visions for Tomcat is absolutely unrelated on this thread, and might better continue on another mailing list. >>> And after all sourceforge is now a really good area >>> to host OpenSource projects (java and others). >> >> I don't see what you mean... > > I just say that sourceforge host today many interesting > OSS projects and much more than apache.org (httpd/jakarta/xml) So? Let's try not to get off topic here... We were talking about HSQL, and I don't see how this fits the discussion. > It's the de-facto reference for OSS developpment I'm pretty happy with our little niche on Apache... And again, let's try not to get off-topic :) Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Project idea (Hypersonic)
>> Sometimes competition in similar (or same) projects >> became a sane emulation (Pier knows what I mean :) > >We're not competing with HSQL... I don't speak of HSQL Pier :) >> And after all sourceforge is now a really good area >> to host OpenSource projects (java and others). > > I don't see what you mean... I just say that sourceforge host today many interesting OSS projects and much more than apache.org (httpd/jakarta/xml) It's the de-facto reference for OSS developpment - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
GOMEZ Henri at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I totally agree and I'll be more than happy to see hsql > in jakarta. But they haven't approached us... And I believe the first step should be done by them.. > Sometimes competition in similar (or same) projects > became a sane emulation (Pier knows what I mean :) We're not competing with HSQL... > And after all sourceforge is now a really good area > to host OpenSource projects (java and others). I don't see what you mean... Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
burtonator at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > >> IMVHO, we shouldn't run after projects who, as you said, have a negative >> inclination towards the Foundation. We have already enough stuff in our bags >> to keep us busy forever, and although the project seems to be pretty cool, I >> don't see a reason why we should incorporate it within our family. >> >> If one of their team comes up and asks, we can consider it, but I don't feel >> it's our task to go out and convince them to join us... > > > Yes. I understand this perspective. However I think it is important to note > that sometimes cooperation is much better than competition. I didn't say we're going to compete with them... Actually we don't have any RDBMS in our bag, and AFAIK we are not planning to have in the future... So, there's no competition, and, regarding cooperation, it can only be achieved when all parties involved are WILLING to cooperate... >From what I hear, they're not very willing... And, as you well know, we're always open to listen, but from that, to go around and convince people, it's a big difference... Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Project idea (Hypersonic)
>> If one of their team comes up and asks, we can consider it, >but I don't feel >> it's our task to go out and convince them to join us... > > >Yes. I understand this perspective. However I think it is >important to note >that sometimes cooperation is much better than competition. I totally agree and I'll be more than happy to see hsql in jakarta. Sometimes competition in similar (or same) projects became a sane emulation (Pier knows what I mean :) And after all sourceforge is now a really good area to host OpenSource projects (java and others). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > IMVHO, we shouldn't run after projects who, as you said, have a negative > inclination towards the Foundation. We have already enough stuff in our bags > to keep us busy forever, and although the project seems to be pretty cool, I > don't see a reason why we should incorporate it within our family. > > If one of their team comes up and asks, we can consider it, but I don't feel > it's our task to go out and convince them to join us... Yes. I understand this perspective. However I think it is important to note that sometimes cooperation is much better than competition. Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Cell: 408-910-6145 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596 Please don't use hard tabs in your code. Instead use 4 spaces. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE7XfugAwM6xb2dfE0RAq9HAJ9Ueouw79UGuMTH2MQPLPfji1xbswCcChTp SdJ03NpGEVeJKT63+jEZ/Ck= =l7Of -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
burtonator at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Just an FYI. > > I have spent a lot of time recently working with the Hypersonic people. > > There are a number of issues here. It seems they talked to Apache in the past > about moving Hypersonic under Jakarta but were turned down. Since then a lot > has happened. > > [...] > > That said I hope other ASF developers are able to convince them to change > their ways where I have failed. I am sure more voices will help make these > issues more relevant. IMVHO, we shouldn't run after projects who, as you said, have a negative inclination towards the Foundation. We have already enough stuff in our bags to keep us busy forever, and although the project seems to be pretty cool, I don't see a reason why we should incorporate it within our family. If one of their team comes up and asks, we can consider it, but I don't feel it's our task to go out and convince them to join us... Apache != Borg :) Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Project idea (Hypersonic)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 "Michael McCallum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > try this one with a BSD licence... > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/hsqldb Just an FYI. I have spent a lot of time recently working with the Hypersonic people. There are a number of issues here. It seems they talked to Apache in the past about moving Hypersonic under Jakarta but were turned down. Since then a lot has happened. It would be a huge changed in direction for them to move to Jakarta. They are creating a non-profit organization to push Hypersonic. It seems that they have put a lot of effort into this and I assume they would be hesitant to waste this when moving over to Apache. The other aspect, and one that *really* bothers me is that they don't seem to want to work under the Apache Open Source Development Model. There CVS modules are all over the place, redundant modules, unnecessary modules, modules which haven't had commits in months, etc. They also do not use mailing lists, the use the SourceForge web forums. Anyone who is a fan of mailing lists will really hate their use of webforums. The other issue is that they have a company founded around Hypersonic and are making all important decisions behind closed doors. This does not bode well for the success of an Open Source project. I have raised all these issues (and more) to them in an constructive manner but they do not seem to want outside help. I really like Hypersonic but am very doubtful about its future considering these facts. That said I hope other ASF developers are able to convince them to change their ways where I have failed. I am sure more voices will help make these issues more relevant. Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Cell: 408-910-6145 URL: http://relativity.yi.org ICQ: 73488596 In the end, only kindness matters. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE7WgtsAwM6xb2dfE0RAh06AKCxvudGp8uL1qwPHeaAPdEu9eMlBACcCuJI 4vHAToYfohIrhCHrb98/XJM= =wZuK -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
