Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: On Saturday 30 September 2006 01:39, Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about '[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)': Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:01:05 -0500: Apparently his mailer (Thunderbird + Enigmail) seems to be singing his messages twice. He's signing using two different formats, apparently, smime and pgp/gpg. Yeah, they should probably only use one technique to sign their messages. inline PGP/GPG is deprecated, IIRC, because it doesn't handle attachments well (or at all?). S/MIME is preferred now but, inline PGP/GPG, being a bit older, has better support. I know kmail still has some ease-of-use issues with S/MIME, but I don't think it affects correctness. Well, I can probably shed some light on things: 1. Yes, my messages are signed twice (gpg and s/mime). I found half the mailers out there support one or the other, but not always both. So, I use both. Probably doesn't hurt much other than the inline gpg. 2. The signatures probably are valid on every mail reader out there - as far as I can tell. 3. HOWEVER, the s/mime signature is using a cert from cacert.org, which hasn't paid for a webtrust audit - and therefore is not in the root cert list for most browsers/email clients. So, while the signature is valid, the chain of trust probably isn't. 4. cacert is about as open-source as you can get for something like a CA. Unfortunately, while gpg uses the web-of-trust model s/mime uses a top-down model. While most users don't think about it, they're implicitly allowing whoever distributes their software to decide who they will trust... (As an aside, cacert.org is interested in trying to get more mainstream support, but for various (often reasonable) reasons most distributors are more interested in just deferring to webtrust - which is VERY expensive.) The community really does need a better solution for SSL certs. (Yes, you can get an s/mime cert free from the big players, but you certainly can't get one for https...) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFH7LpG4/rWKZmVWkRAh7TAJ0aTgiu1rueTzyUa90OQdi+oWf6HQCcDGfe 7FFtEFj+VjjMHiYi8yWGIyk= =1EY6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
On Friday 29 September 2006 21:33, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)': Sorry, I use Outlook to read this list at work, and initially when I see posts to the list from you, it says that the message has an invalid digital signature I got a couple of messages about the message. One said there was not enough information to check the signature. The other said the signature was valid, but the key was untrusted. Apparently his mailer (Thunderbird + Enigmail) seems to be singing his messages twice. Either that, or I could just have my kmail misconfigured for S/MIME. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh pgp1T8VQyEjfc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to
him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total
bullshit.
Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong. You don't
respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours? I call
hypocrite.
Nice strawman, I've never said, or implied that I didn't respect Duncan's
opinion. In fact just the opposite, I've specifically told him that I
believe he has thought a lot about this, and that I believe he is sincere.
Then I apologize. I gathered that total bullshit was in reference
to Duncan's beliefs.
When was the last time that you personally submitted a *patch* for some open
source app/utility/driver?
Not really relevant to this discussion, but:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/39777
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/40207
Another example: It would take me a very long time to fix a problem with a
SCSI driver, compared to someone who works on SCSI drivers regularly. Would
*you* want to pay for the many extra hours of troubleshooting due to my
inexperience with fill in blank type of code?
Well the alsa patches above did take me dozens of hours to figure out.
Much of that was figuring out how the alsa driver worked, studying
the Intel HDA specification, and fiddling with own hardware. So yes,
it can take an amazing amount of time.
The point is, anybody _can_ do it, if they are willing to invest the
time and effort into it. It is very very much like learning a foreign
language. I don't speak German...so I am totally dependant upon a
translator if I want to communicate with someone who speaks only
German. But should I not be able to find a translator willing to work
for what I am willing to pay, I always have the option of learning to
speak German myself.
All code is not the same, and software engineers are not all
interchangeable.
Heh, try telling that to management at ${mycompany}! ;-P
-Richard
--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
On Saturday 30 September 2006 01:39, Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about '[gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)': Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:01:05 -0500: Apparently his mailer (Thunderbird + Enigmail) seems to be singing his messages twice. He's signing using two different formats, apparently, smime and pgp/gpg. Yeah, they should probably only use one technique to sign their messages. inline PGP/GPG is deprecated, IIRC, because it doesn't handle attachments well (or at all?). S/MIME is preferred now but, inline PGP/GPG, being a bit older, has better support. I know kmail still has some ease-of-use issues with S/MIME, but I don't think it affects correctness. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh pgp8DAFhGZBra.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
--- Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a very shallow definition of the essence of freedom, from the perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really change anything. From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon actually qualifies as freedom. Nobody needs to depend on anybody for their coding! Programmers are not a secret society that hold their ways secret! If you don't find anybody to do it for you, or if you don't want to pay for that, then you can buy a copy of Programming for Dummies or Teach yourself C++ in 10 minutes (note that if any of this books really exist, it is a simple coincidence). So everybody HAS the freedom. If somebody is too lazy to learn how to use it, it's their own fault. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Andrei Slavoiu wrote: --- Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a very shallow definition of the essence of freedom, from the perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really change anything. From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon actually qualifies as freedom. Nobody needs to depend on anybody for their coding! Programmers are not a secret society that hold their ways secret! If you don't find anybody to do it for you, or if you don't want to pay for that, then you can buy a copy of Programming for Dummies or Teach yourself C++ in 10 minutes (note that if any of this books really exist, it is a simple coincidence). So everybody HAS the freedom. If somebody is too lazy to learn how to use it, it's their own fault. You absolutely do have to depend on someone else for their coding - unless you fork it, or upstream actually accepts your patch. If you fork it then there is a whole new ball of wax, and I am sorry but Programming for Dummies and Teach yourself C++ in 10 minutes (just to steal your examples) will not teach you the coding skills that you actually need for the opensource world - as they typically are written for Windows... yay... but - the only issue I have with Windows being called slaveryware or whatever, is that means that you have absolutely no choice whatsoever in using it - and while that may be the case where some people work (I am lucky in that where I work they are extremely opensource friendly, and I only have 1 machine out of 7 that actually requires Windows be on it - gah, I keep going way off my path... ok, lets try this again...) Slaveryware by a very literal term, means you are being forced to use it, and the fact that you have a choice, you CAN use Free/Open Souce software, negates that it actually is slaveryware because no one forces you to use it, it is personal choice. I keep a Windows machine around at home, but in no way do I feel like I have to have it. It is simply there, yes, I can scratch my own itches, and by virtue of becoming a Gentoo dev, I have decided to help others scratch their itches too, but that is what open source is all about. Scratching an itch, and if you don't have the ability to scratch your own, you ARE dependent on others to do the scratching for you, UNTIL you have the ability to do it on your own. Either way, you ARE shifting who you are dependent on for the relief from the itch. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Hey guys, this is an interesting debate, but could we please do it someplace else? On the forums for example, that way the subscribers of this list don't have to wake up to 50+ new off-topic messages from this list. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Andrei Slavoiu wrote: --- Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a very shallow definition of the essence of freedom, from the perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really change anything. From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon actually qualifies as freedom. Nobody needs to depend on anybody for their coding! Programmers are not a secret society that hold their ways secret! If you don't find anybody to do it for you, or if you don't want to pay for that, then you can buy a copy of Programming for Dummies or Teach yourself C++ in 10 minutes (note that if any of this books really exist, it is a simple coincidence). So everybody HAS the freedom. If somebody is too lazy to learn how to use it, it's their own fault. You're absolutely correct, everybody and anybody in the entire world *may* if they want to, modify an OSS app/utility/driver, I've stipulated that over and over again. What I'm pointing out is, the vast majority of people who have this choice (the people using OSS), don't exercise it in any way. They have absolutely no interest in doing so, and they are never ever going to be interested in doing so, and that is as it should be. I'm not suggesting that OSS should be abolished, or anything like that, I'm just saying that in comparison to CSS this supposed freedom that OSS provides, isn't really all that valuable from the perspective of most end users. I will grant that it is a more important issue for people who can read/write code or have interest in doing so, but that's a pretty small percentage of the population. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Martin Bergstrand wrote: Hey guys, this is an interesting debate, but could we please do it someplace else? On the forums for example, that way the subscribers of this list don't have to wake up to 50+ new off-topic messages from this list. I agree completely - it would be interesting to see the subscriber stats for this list; I wouldn't be surprised if it has dropped substantially in the last couple of days. Certainly if this continues for any longer it WILL, me included. It isn't that its an uninteresting topic, but it is COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC! Ian McCulloch -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
Richard Fish wrote:
On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it
*feels* to
him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total
bullshit.
Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong. You don't
respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours? I call
hypocrite.
Nice strawman, I've never said, or implied that I didn't respect
Duncan's
opinion. In fact just the opposite, I've specifically told him that I
believe he has thought a lot about this, and that I believe he is
sincere.
Then I apologize. I gathered that total bullshit was in reference
to Duncan's beliefs.
No, I've always thought Duncan was sincere, and that he had given this a
great deal of thought.. The total bullshit remark was my disdain for the
practice (by some people) of advocating that no one should necessarily
have to support their opinions and the terms they use to express them
with real logic and evidence, in effect saying that anything goes, and
it's all okay as long as it's what you feel, I think that's
intellectually bankrupt.
When was the last time that you personally submitted a *patch* for
some open
source app/utility/driver?
Not really relevant to this discussion, but:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/39777
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/40207
Another example: It would take me a very long time to fix a problem
with a
SCSI driver, compared to someone who works on SCSI drivers regularly.
Would
*you* want to pay for the many extra hours of troubleshooting due to my
inexperience with fill in blank type of code?
Well the alsa patches above did take me dozens of hours to figure out.
Much of that was figuring out how the alsa driver worked, studying
the Intel HDA specification, and fiddling with own hardware. So yes,
it can take an amazing amount of time.
The point is, anybody _can_ do it, if they are willing to invest the
time and effort into it. It is very very much like learning a foreign
language. I don't speak German...so I am totally dependant upon a
translator if I want to communicate with someone who speaks only
German. But should I not be able to find a translator willing to work
for what I am willing to pay, I always have the option of learning to
speak German myself.
I suppose it comes down how one values being technically correct versus
what actually happens in the real world. Personally I tend to be more
practical, but certainly the world needs people who stick to the exact
letter of the law, as we do of course need some accountants and lawyers.
That being said, I can't resist making the tangential and totally off
topic comment that I think America in general, has gone way too far
toward the *exact letter of the law* side. Zero tolerance, mandatory
sentences, and just the general climate of the society has removed so
much of the decision making and discretion that was available in the
past. It has been removed at all levels of government, everybody from
grade school principles, to circuit court judges, have almost no choice
in how to handle the situations and cases that come before them.. Thus
we are in a society where: a student is suspended for giving another
student aspirin, a 19 yr old is a registered sex offender for having
consensual sex with his 16yr old girlfriend, and you can be sent to
prison for life for stealing a slice of pizza.. I hope the pendulum
starts to swing the other way, and at least some of this madness gets
reversed, but to be honest, I'm not very optimistic.
All code is not the same, and software engineers are not all
interchangeable.
Heh, try telling that to management at ${mycompany}! ;-P
Are you kidding, it has taken me years to explain just some of it to my
wife [:-)
--
Regards
Bob Young
--
gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Ian McCulloch wrote: On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Martin Bergstrand wrote: Hey guys, this is an interesting debate, but could we please do it someplace else? On the forums for example, that way the subscribers of this list don't have to wake up to 50+ new off-topic messages from this list. I agree completely - it would be interesting to see the subscriber stats for this list; I wouldn't be surprised if it has dropped substantially in the last couple of days. Certainly if this continues for any longer it WILL, me included. It isn't that its an uninteresting topic, but it is COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC! Ian McCulloch I've never understood why people care about off topic threads. It's an *email* list, thus it's reasonable to expect that most people are using an email client or some derivative thereof to read the messages posted to the list. With all modern email clients that I know of, it's absolutely trivial to filter/delete/ignore messages in a specific thread. Given that, it's not like anyone not interested in a particular thread is being forced to read or even *manually* deal with unwanted messages. Conversly as long as the thread is continuing at least some of the list members are interested, exactly what harm does it do to allow an off topic thread to die a natural death as all threads eventually do? OT threads may violate policy, and that may irritate people who are absolute sticklers for strict adherence to the rules but beyond that what real damage or harm does it cause, and is such damage or harm sufficient to justify restricting what some valid list members wish to discuss with each other? -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On Saturday 30 September 2006 15:21, Bob Young wrote: I've never understood why people care about off topic threads. It's an *email* list, thus it's reasonable to expect that most people are using an email client or some derivative thereof to read the messages posted to the list. With all modern email clients that I know of, it's absolutely trivial to filter/delete/ignore messages in a specific thread. Given that, it's not like anyone not interested in a particular thread is being forced to read or even *manually* deal with unwanted messages. Some might stay tuned in the unlikely event that the original topic might be further discussed... -jm -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Joe Menola wrote: On Saturday 30 September 2006 15:21, Bob Young wrote: I've never understood why people care about off topic threads. It's an *email* list, thus it's reasonable to expect that most people are using an email client or some derivative thereof to read the messages posted to the list. With all modern email clients that I know of, it's absolutely trivial to filter/delete/ignore messages in a specific thread. Given that, it's not like anyone not interested in a particular thread is being forced to read or even *manually* deal with unwanted messages. Some might stay tuned in the unlikely event that the original topic might be further discussed... U.if you have some desire to discuss the original topic is there something that prevents you from either replying to a message without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message with a subject indicating what you want to talk about? -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On Saturday 30 September 2006 3:38 pm, Bob Young wrote: U.if you have some desire to discuss the original topic is there something that prevents you from either replying to a message without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message with a subject indicating what you want to talk about? Uhhh, no there isn't. Nor is there anything preventing someone from attaching a reply to your rambling. This thread was high-jacked, and now the burden should move to those who post according the rules? I'm finished contributing to the mess...feel free to break the rules, I'll work around it. -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Joe Menola wrote: On Saturday 30 September 2006 3:38 pm, Bob Young wrote: U.if you have some desire to discuss the original topic is there something that prevents you from either replying to a message without the OT warning in the subject line, or posting a new message with a subject indicating what you want to talk about? Uhhh, no there isn't. Nor is there anything preventing someone from attaching a reply to your rambling. Are you suggesting there should be something? It sounds like your a fan of censorship and prefer rules to always be strictly enforced with zero tolerance for any deviation. This thread was high-jacked, and now the burden should move to those who post according the rules? Actually a more accurate description might be that it was forked, as the subject line was modified differentiating it from the original, and there was certainly nothing to prevent anyone from replying to the original message/thread and carrying on with a discussion of the original topic. I'm finished contributing to the mess...feel free to break the rules, I'll work around it. Sorry, I just honestly don't see the any cause of major inconvenience or damage (aka mess) here. I'm sure that there must be examples of threads that were completely on topic but you personally were not interested in, obviously you dealt with those threads in some fashion. Why is it so difficult to deal with the occasional OT thread the same way, especially when it's clearly marked? It's not like the list is overrun with OT threads, nor do I see any indication that the list is likely to be overrun with OT messages in the future. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
it's stupid to say : open source (as GPL, LGPL, FLOSS etc..) is not necessary as we can just buy open source (but closed in fact) software. because of - closed source is IP (intellectuall property - watever this means, abstractive and poor words) and NOBODY exept the owner CAN modify it, change etc. Closed Source isn't Intellectual Property. Intellectual Property merely is what it is. And what it is quite simply is 'property' (in whatever physical manifestation that takes) generated by one's Intellect(good old grey matter). Closed or Open source is merely a legal framework that defines how persons (other then the 'owner' of said IP) may use the IP in question. For example, say I was the person who came up with the idea of sending data down a wire using packets. The concept of the packet is my IP. I then create a physical manifestation of my idea in the form of a document outlining how my idea works. Assuming I don't destroy the document and leave it forever locked in my mind I now have to make a choice about what legal framework to place around my IP to 'protect' it. Organizations like Microsoft chose to put a heavily restrictive legal framework around the IP (closed source) whereas FLOSS organizations tend to put less restrictive legal frameworks around their IP (open source). And regardless of how restrictive (or not) the legal framework is, it still exists in one form or another. -Drew -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Closed Source isn't Intellectual Property. Intellectual Property merely is what it is. And what it is quite simply is 'property' (in whatever physical manifestation that takes) generated by one's Intellect(good old grey matter). Closed or Open source is merely a legal framework that defines how persons (other then the 'owner' of said IP) may use the IP in question. Organizations like Microsoft chose to put a heavily restrictive legal framework around the IP (closed source) whereas FLOSS organizations tend to put less restrictive legal frameworks around their IP (open source). And regardless of how restrictive (or not) the legal framework is, it still exists in one form or another. -Drew but it is very often used combined, when you will ask ATI why cannot you open drivers you will hear because of there are a number of patents which we 'probably violate' so we cannot open source and - of course - the second, more dangerous sample could be Microsoft, with all this actions which can cause the moving on the screen cursor will be unavailable for other then M$ systems, because it violates their patents, and their engineers and their families will die from hunger if we will not buy their OS of course, this is very simplified what I said, however this business model is really not so good for the development of culture, technology, --- whole humanity -- true story from my life : my girl-friends father bought in China (as he is working on ships and he was close to there for a few months) DVD player, small and nice. than he brings it to home (Poland), bought a Space Odyssey 2001 ... and how do you think ?? could he see the movie? of course NOT, because of the region was NOT correct. and please tell me - is it right ? legaly bought, but NOT_USABLE... and he was so surprised when he just found himself, that - in fact - he is NOT free with this technology. regards, Piotr -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
I am sure you've got the best of intentions, but as far as I know: * people are free to choose their vocabulary as they see fit on gentoo-amd64. Especially when they are generally as helpful as Duncan ;) * this is not the first time (and certainly not the last) that Duncan and many others use those terms. In fact this is not the first time this has degenerated into a discussion about those terms. * Gentoo is free software and R.Stallman is the undisputed father of free software, if you disagree with the terms that he uses regularly himself, why not take it to a FSF list or another discussion forum. This has *nothing* to do with amd64 specifically. * I can understand why some people would feel these words are a tad strong to describe software, but as I am forced to use slaveryware everyday to drive my large lcd in 3D (no way around it): I still find it a major PITA whenever it breaks (which is often) and so it does feel like slavery. There you go, I said it. Now can we all behave like adults and drop the long winded thread. And in the future if anyone re-starts a thread like this one, can we just point them to this thread (or the previous one) rather than re-hashing the whole discussion everytime. Let's agree to disagree and leave it there. Regards Antoine On Thu, 2006-09-28 at 19:34 -0700, Bob Young wrote: -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Duncan Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:17 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:43:12 -0700: I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer working at nVidia. Because *no one* is dependent on the linux kernel developers. You can make the needed changes. If you don't have the ability to, As is the case for 99.99 percent of the population. That may be, but 99.99 percent of the population isn't me. True, but discussions regarding moral, ethical, or general policy questions, should have a broader base and application than my personal and specific opinion and viewpoint. As I said in a different reply, slaveryware vs. freedomware is simply the point in my experience I've come to. I don't expect others to have come to the same point, or necessarily find my terms represent their experience. All I'm doing is fairly representing my own experience, calling things exactly as I see them, unvarnished with political correctness. I don't care about political correctness, I care about reality, and in the real world, words have meaning, they don't just mean what each of us chooses for them personally. Just because you personally perceive CSS as slaveryware doesn't mean that such a term is justified by the actual reality of the situation. I consider it somewhat of a copout, and just a bit disingenuous, to justify use of inflammatory terms with the it's just my viewpoint defense. I could justify my use of the word whore when referring to women by saying I don't mean it as derogatory. I could say that I'm not using it as a slur, and that I perceive it as just a general term. I could say no one else should take it as meaning otherwise when I use it, however that doesn't change the meaning one bit, nor does it change what people hear when I use the word, nor should it. The same argument could, and has, been used for nigger, faggot, Nazi, and a whole host of other inflammatory words. Just saying that you're in a different place in your journey doesn't change the meaning of words, nor how accurately (or NOT) they describe the reality of the situation. the skills* (or use your own time) to improve the software. Clearly, you have more options (and are thus more free) with free software. If I'm not doing it myself, I see little difference whether I pay one entity, or pay another. new drug to save your life or that of a loved one, or buying food and/or paying rent. The fact of the matter is, many suppliers gives you vastly more freedom/flexibility than a single supplier, and with that freedom/flexibility not coincidentally comes a rather drastic drop in cost, yet the suppliers still seem to stay n business. Back to software, while having open source does indeed give slightly more choice in a technical/theoretical sense, in reality, this additional choice is *never* exercised by the vast majority of users. If a freedom is never exercised by 99.99 percent of users who have it, do you actually think that in any realistic way the users who don't have the choice are in any real sense enslaved? -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Closed Source isn't Intellectual Property. Intellectual Property merely is what it is. And what it is quite simply is 'property' (in whatever physical manifestation that takes) generated by one's Intellect(good old grey matter). Closed or Open source is merely a legal framework that defines how persons (other then the 'owner' of said IP) may use the IP in question. Organizations like Microsoft chose to put a heavily restrictive legal framework around the IP (closed source) whereas FLOSS organizations tend to put less restrictive legal frameworks around their IP (open source). And regardless of how restrictive (or not) the legal framework is, it still exists in one form or another. -Drew but it is very often used combined, when you will ask ATI why cannot you open drivers you will hear because of there are a number of patents which we 'probably violate' so we cannot open source For sure. That's the nature of the protective legal framework, namely that it cascades to further derivative works. I also think in that's Ati playing CYA. and - of course - the second, more dangerous sample could be Microsoft, with all this actions which can cause the moving on the screen cursor will be unavailable for other then M$ systems, because it violates their patents, and their engineers and their families will die from hunger if we will not buy their OS Let's not get started on that 'patent'. I'd prefer the start to my weekend to be peaceful. ;-) of course, this is very simplified what I said, however this business model is really not so good for the development of culture, technology, --- whole humanity Totally. However, I can also understand the counterpoint of why people might want to put restrictive protections on something they created. The profit motive is a strong driver in the western world and anything that gives me an edge over the competition, that's a good thing. (tm) -Drew -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
There sure as heck is a difference between slaveryware and freedomware. It may seem to you that, for non-programmers, there is no difference between not being able to recode Microsoft or Apple software vs Linux software, but there is a world of difference. With proprietary software, there is only once legal path to mods, and that is to convince the owner to change the software as you would like, either by big bucks or a massive publicity campaign. With Linux, even if I can't do it, there are hundreds of thousands of people who could, and it would only take a few bucks or a good friend to do it. It is not only possible, easily, but also there is a lot of choice on how to do it. That is the essence of freedom. It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else. If my house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being able to put a nail in a stud. Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend could, and did. There is a HUGE difference between slaveryware and freedomware. A vital essential difference. It is why I run Linux myself. -- ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._. Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman rocket surgeon / [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E 6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933 I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 04:03:25PM -0700, Bob Young wrote: That's almost entirely a theoretical difference, in the real world this freedom is actually exercised very little if at all. Almost?!? How many people actually use the freedoms guaranteed by the US constitution? For almost all of them, it is a theoretical freedom they never use. Look at the current brouhaha over habeas corpus for non-citizens, just voted out of existence by Congress and almost certain to be voided as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court for the third time. Almost no US citizen will ever be affected by this -- only two have been affected by it so far -- yet I doubt you'd be interested in a constitutional amendment to remove it altogether. Good gosh. Almost entirely a theoretical difference -- what a phrase. I can't believe anyone could utter such nonsense. I will never have to worry about a tons of freedoms that are theoretically guaranteed by the US constitution, but I am almighty glad they exist. -- ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._. Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman rocket surgeon / [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E 6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933 I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Duncan Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:36 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:55:31 -0700: Now we're getting off in to other discussions, companies purchase the CSS IP of other companies all the time, such developement polination is certaintly not dependent on OSS. This particular discussion however, was about slaveryware vs freedomware from the viewpoint of the end user, not corporations. To the vast majority of end users, OSS, while a nice feel good thing, doesn't actually make them any more free in any real practical way. Well, when a fair segment of end users /are/ corporations, and they are the ones funding the development and responsible for the fact that it's not just a hobby for many any more... I'd say excluding them from the picture is itself unrealistic. In fact, there are many disturbed by that trend, and I see their point, but find the trend an inevitable result of the mass popularization of what was once the few-hour-a-week-at-best hobby of a handful of very geeky developers. The discussion was centered around the terms freedomware and slaveryware, and thus by extension freedom and enslavement. I'd like to know how, in a capitalistic society, a corporation is enslaved. Another analogy can be made to voting. Even the majority of folks choosing to sit out a vote, many who may never have registered to vote at all and don't really intend to, would have serious problems with a suggestion that this right/freedom they have been choosing not to exercise be taken away. Just because you don't exercise it doesn't mean it's not a freedom. I believe I've already admitted that technically you're correct, I'm just saying that the absence of such a choice doesn't justify the term enslavement. There's another aspect as well. Thomas Jefferson is quoted as saying The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. (I recognize the name may not mean much to an international audience, but those who wish to can of course look it up, now that it's cited.) While one hopes this particular liberty won't come to that literally, there was a time a few years ago when I thought those who refused to surrender such freedoms of the mind might end up imprisoned -- and it could still happen, particularly in the areas of the arts as opposed to computer sciences, where we have a head start. After a bit of self-examination, I realized I couldn't honestly say I was committed to death, tho I believe in the freedom strongly enough that I /believe/ one /should/ be that committed. However, the reality is that some have already been imprisoned over it -- even reaching across other nations' laws to do it (xref Dmitry Sklyarov). I realized that those believing must certainly be prepared for that possibility, and that I felt it a tradeoff worth the cost. I find many aspects of the DMCA abhorrent, and I'd agree that a number of our freedoms are being restricted, curtailed, or even outright taken away, especially in the digital realm. However, legislation, such as the DMCA, apply to actions that are either allowed or not allowed. If everything were open source, things that are illegal under the DMCA would still be illegal, it would just be easier to break the law. For example, there would be no need to reverse engineer CSS in order to produce DeCSS, but defeating CSS would still be illegal. IOW, open sourcing everything is not the solution, the solution is to abolish or at least correct bad law. In this particular example I believe society is better served by letting the technology battle between content providers and hackers continue, without the heavy arm of the law unfairly protecting one side. I don't believe content providers should be forced to open source their protection methods, but neither should it be illegal for the hackers to try and crack that protection. Let the two sides do their best, and society will benefit as new and better technology results. OTOH, it's foolish to needlessly tempt the legal fates, thus my insistence that I literally /cannot/ at this point legally run most unfree software, due to the EULAs, and therefore that I /will/ not do so. For someone considering the possibility of that level of sacrifice, telling that friend mentioned earlier that I cannot legally view his clip in the format it's currently in, merely foregoing that tiny bit of convenience while creating a slightly awkward situation, is a foregone conclusion. The vast majority of users, don't care about having source code available, and even the users who do have source code available for their apps utilities, and drivers *never* actually have some
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
[EMAIL PROTECTED], mused, then expounded: It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else. If my house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being able to put a nail in a stud. Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend could, and did. And this points out some of the irony I find amusing. If I or someone else wants to add a piece of hardware to a motherboard supporting an Intel processor, not only does it cost lots of money, I have to sign away certain rights for the privledge to do so. And even then, I may not be allowed to do anything at all because it's of no interest to Intel - won't sell enough platforms, or Intel may choose to take my idea and do their own. On the other hand, I pay my money to the HyperTransport Org, agree to contribute bus specific IP back to the the organization, and I'm free to do as I please. Even, with a bit of NDA and some loss of rights, use AMD's cpu socket. But AMD isn't going to stop me from persuing most things. Yet, in all of this, I read that folks most sincere about freedomware will gladly go out and by Intel platforms simply because they, or someone else can write code for Intel's graphics chip or because Intel's current platform has great benchmark numbers, even though it limits their choice of hardware - Intel chips, and vendors - only those blessed by Intel with the secret knowledge of their bus. While this isn't meant to be Intel bashing, nor trying to portray AMD as some kind of saintly corporate enitiy. Given the stances that have been expounded here, if it's really good to have choice and freedom in software to avoid lockin, why doesn't this thinking extend to the hardware? Or is it just fine that your Corporate Master is a hardware company? There is a HUGE difference between slaveryware and freedomware. A vital essential difference. It is why I run Linux myself. I run Linux, and Gentoo specifically, because I dislike being told what I can do on my computer and how I am to do it. I run an AMD platform because I dislike being told there is one way my platform shall operate, and from whom I shall buy my chips from. (Note, the what and how, for me doesn't include going without a package manager, nor is messing with CFLAGS of interest to me.) Bob - -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: Antoine Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:04 AM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware) I am sure you've got the best of intentions, but as far as I know: * people are free to choose their vocabulary as they see fit on gentoo-amd64. I'm not saying he doesn't have the freedom to use them, I'm suggesting that they are inaccurate and their connotations don't reflect the true relationship between vendors and users, and for that reason their use should be reconsidered. Especially when they are generally as helpful as Duncan ;) I agree that Duncan is very helpful, and verbose. However that's a separate issue from whether or not freedomware and slaveryware are accurate descriptions. * Gentoo is free software and R.Stallman is the undisputed father of free software, if you disagree with the terms that he uses regularly himself, why not take it to a FSF list or another discussion forum. I'm not on a crusade, I'm on this list, and this it where it came to my attention, so I'm discussing it here. This has *nothing* to do with amd64 specifically. The whole point of human communication is for people to interact, if a thread is off topic, but clearly labeled, it's trivial for those not interested to ignore. For those who are interested it may provoke thought or give insight into the topic they had not previously considered. *ALL* threads eventually die, regardless of whether on topic or off. As long as participants are willing to continue replying, what harm is there to you personally in the thread continuing? * I can understand why some people would feel these words are a tad strong to describe software, but as I am forced to use slaveryware everyday to drive my large lcd in 3D (no way around it): I still find it a major PITA whenever it breaks (which is often) and so it does feel like slavery. There you go, I said it. When a user (who can't read/write source code) has an OSS app or utility break frequently, should they feel enslaved? Now can we all behave like adults and drop the long winded thread. Why does it bother you? And in the future if anyone re-starts a thread like this one, can we just point them to this thread (or the previous one) rather than re-hashing the whole discussion everytime. Let's agree to disagree and leave it there. Hyou don't think Duncan should restrict his use of inaccurate terms, but you want to restrict what topics I or others should reply to...does the word inconsistent mean anything to you? -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:23:12PM -0700, Bob Sanders wrote: I run Linux, and Gentoo specifically, because I dislike being told what I can do on my computer and how I am to do it. I run an AMD platform because I dislike being told there is one way my platform shall operate, and from whom I shall buy my chips from. (Note, the what and how, for me doesn't include going without a package manager, nor is messing with CFLAGS of interest to me.) That is interesting. I had always thought the only difference was in the results, and that is why all my recent machines have been AMD, that Intel seemed to be too stuck on pure Mhz to concentrate on better processors. I had no idea that Intel had those kinds of limits. They dont' apply to me, for sure, but it is interesting, and maybe that is why I thought AMD motherboards more interesting, as a result of Intel's anal-retentive policies making Intel motherboards less imaginative. I have long had a fantasy of sorts of someone coming out with a generic processor taht could be reconfigured on the fly -- of coming up with my own instruction set for it, so a custom gcc backend could produce code for it, and it would be immune to all malware which depends on the specific instruction set. Even, at moments, thinking of having permutations of the instructions every few months, just to ad variety to things. I had brief moments of interest in Transmeta for just that reason, but they quickly disappeared. -- ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._. Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman rocket surgeon / [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E 6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933 I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:25 AM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) With Linux, even if I can't do it, there are hundreds of thousands of people who could, and it would only take a few bucks or a good friend to do it. It is not only possible, easily, but also there is a lot of choice on how to do it. That is the essence of freedom. That's a very shallow definition of the essence of freedom, from the perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really change anything. From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon actually qualifies as freedom. It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else. If my house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being able to put a nail in a stud. Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend could, and did. Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you haven't thought it through clearly enough. There is a HUGE difference between slaveryware and freedomware. No there's not, they are just hyperbolic words that have little actual meaning behind them, at least none that can be supported with concrete reason and logic. A vital essential difference. It is why I run Linux myself. I run Linux also, why else would I be subscribed to this list, I just don't blindly accept everything that R. Stallman, or the FSF, or anyone else says. I consider the facts, and look at the reality of the situation, and decide for myself what opinion to take. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
[EMAIL PROTECTED], mused, then expounded: I have long had a fantasy of sorts of someone coming out with a generic processor taht could be reconfigured on the fly -- of coming up with my own instruction set for it, so a custom gcc backend could produce code for it, and it would be immune to all malware which depends on the specific instruction set. Even, at moments, thinking of having permutations of the instructions every few months, just to ad variety to things. I had brief moments of interest in Transmeta for just that reason, but they quickly disappeared. Well, not generic, but in the same spirit, it can plug into an AMD 940 pin cpu socket. And one has two vendors to choose from - http://www.drccomputer.com/ http://www.xtremedatainc.com/ Not exactly cheap to get into, and it doesn't use gcc as it's VHDL. So, maybe too restrictive, but it's re-configurable and 1 or more,, up to 7 can theoretically be used in an 8 socket AMD based platform. Interestingly enough, both companies development stations come with Linux as the os. Bob - -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:34 AM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) On Thu, Sep 28, 2006 at 04:03:25PM -0700, Bob Young wrote: That's almost entirely a theoretical difference, in the real world this freedom is actually exercised very little if at all. Almost?!? Yes Almost! How many people actually use the freedoms guaranteed by the US constitution? Article 1 - Free exercise of religion: Lots of people every day. Article 2 - Right to keep and bear arms: Regulated, but many many people own guns. Article 12 - Right to vote: True that the percentage of voter turn out isn't as high as it should be, but many people do vote. For almost all of them, it is a theoretical freedom they never use. Bullshit, You think that people's free exercise of religion is a theoretical freedom. Look at the current brouhaha over habeas corpus for non-citizens, just voted out of existence by Congress and almost certain to be voided as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court for the third time. Almost no US citizen will ever be affected by this -- only two have been affected by it so far -- yet I doubt you'd be interested in a constitutional amendment to remove it altogether. You'd have a point if open source actually provided some type *real* freedom for *everyone,* but it doesn't, and you don't. Open source has benefits, but claiming that it is somehow on the same plane as constitutional rights is just silly. Good gosh. Almost entirely a theoretical difference -- what a phrase. A completely valid one in relation to OSS. I can't believe anyone could utter such nonsense. It's only nonsense if one has some blind allegiance to open source, and is therefore willing to bestow upon it attributes it doesn't actually have. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not saying he doesn't have the freedom to use them, I'm suggesting that they are inaccurate and their connotations don't reflect the true relationship between vendors and users, and for that reason their use should be reconsidered. But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and users from Duncan's viewpoint. Your viewpoint is obviously different, but doesn't mean yours is the only true one. When a user (who can't read/write source code) has an OSS app or utility break frequently, should they feel enslaved? No. They should feel empowered to learn about programming and help fix it, or entice others to do so. -Richard -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:41:36PM -0700, Bob Young wrote: Article 1 - Free exercise of religion: Lots of people every day. Article 2 - Right to keep and bear arms: Regulated, but many many people own guns. Article 12 - Right to vote: True that the percentage of voter turn out isn't as high as it should be, but many people do vote. Please give some example from news sources of people today who have to go to court to enforce those freedoms. Not very many, is it? Seems pretty theoretical to me. -- ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._. Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman rocket surgeon / [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E 6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933 I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:10:15PM -0700, Bob Young wrote: Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you haven't thought it through clearly enough. Heh. Analogies are beyond your grasp, eh? I kinda doubt it, sir. I have to admit I have never before run across anyone who thinks analogies suck. Maybe it is a sign of the weakness of your arguments that they can't survive a good analogy. Personally, I like analogies, and I bet even a simple google of your email history would show more than a few analogies from you. I doubt very much you are so shallow as to hate analogies, and I doubt just as much that you'd now refute whatever analogies you have used in support of your own arguments. -- ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._. Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman rocket surgeon / [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E 6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933 I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a very shallow definition of the essence of freedom, from the perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really change anything. From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon actually qualifies as freedom. But the user can also choose to not be dependant upon anybody. They can choose to learn about programming and languages and fix it themselves. If you say you have no interest in doing that, then you are *choosing* to be dependant upon somebody, and now you have to pick who to become dependant on. But that doesn't change the fact that you can still choose to not be dependant on anybody. Sounds like freedom to me... It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else. If my house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being able to put a nail in a stud. Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend could, and did. Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you haven't thought it through clearly enough. Yes, all analogies are imperfect by definition. But many people find that creating analogies to other industries and products helps them understand the issues. I consider the facts, and look at the reality of the situation, and decide for myself what opinion to take. Fine. But why should someone who believes that the terms slaveryware and freedomware are the most accurate reflection of *their* opinion stop using the terms? -Richard -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Fish Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:07 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware) On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not saying he doesn't have the freedom to use them, I'm suggesting that they are inaccurate and their connotations don't reflect the true relationship between vendors and users, and for that reason their use should be reconsidered. But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and users from Duncan's viewpoint. Your viewpoint is obviously different, but doesn't mean yours is the only true one. Oh please, spare me the relative truth crap. You can argue all you want that it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total bullshit. It conveniently avoids the confrontational point, namely that there isn't any hard concrete logic and reason to support or justify the usage of words such as slaveryware and freedomware. When a user (who can't read/write source code) has an OSS app or utility break frequently, should they feel enslaved? No. They should feel empowered to learn about programming and help fix it, or entice others to do so. That's obviously not what currently happens for the vast majority of people using OSS, why is that, what's wrong? Secondly, if you think thats going to change anytime soon, I'd love to know what evidence supports such a belief. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:09 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:41:36PM -0700, Bob Young wrote: Article 1 - Free exercise of religion: Lots of people every day. Please give some example from news sources of people today who have to go to court to enforce those freedoms. Not very many, is it? Seems pretty theoretical to me. No one goes to court to enforce freedoms, it is the job of the courts, and ultimately, the U.S. Supreme court, to determine whether or not a right delineated in the constitution has been violated. I don't consider Supreme court rulings to be theoretical. OTOH, people exercise their constitutional rights such as freedom of religion, and the right to bear arms, each and every day, there is nothing theoretical about that either, so sorry, I don't understand your point. I'll just say again that I think to equate open source with the freedoms granted by the constitution is hyperbolic, silly, and tends to somewhat trivialize the true definition of freedom. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and users from Duncan's viewpoint. Your viewpoint is obviously different, but doesn't mean yours is the only true one. Oh please, spare me the relative truth crap. You can argue all you want that it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total bullshit. Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong. You don't respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours? I call hypocrite. conveniently avoids the confrontational point, namely that there isn't any hard concrete logic and reason to support or justify the usage of words such as slaveryware and freedomware. Hard concrete logic: *everybody* has the right to modify and distribute open source software. How is that *not* freedom? BTW, it doesn't matter to me how many people actually exercise that right. I choose not to own a gun...that doesn't at all effect my freedom to do so if I choose. No. They should feel empowered to learn about programming and help fix it, or entice others to do so. That's obviously not what currently happens for the vast majority of people using OSS, why is that, what's wrong? Are you saying that the vast majority of users do _nothing_ when they run into a problem with OSS? That they do not post to a mail list, or forum, or IRC, or file a bug report? All of those activities fall under the entice others to do so category IMO, and if that is what you are claiming, I want to see your poll numbers, because it is not at all obvious to me. Oh, wait, I can hear you now: but that is no different than with closed source. You already know the counter argument: with closed source, the only people who can provide the patch are those who own the source. With open source, anybody can produce and send a patch to the user. So with open source, even if the user doesn't exercise their freedom directly, they can (and do) ask others to exercise that freedom on their behalf. -Richard -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
On 9/29/06, Richard Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and users from Duncan's viewpoint. Your viewpoint is obviously different, but doesn't mean yours is the only true one. Oh please, spare me the relative truth crap. You can argue all you want that it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total bullshit. Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong. You don't respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours? I call hypocrite. BTW, just for the record, I do not equate closed source with slavery. Nobody is going to be stoned, crucified, or burned at the stake for refusing to use some piece of software. It is a choice of which software to use, and for almost all cases, there is enough competition in the industry that nobody should feel enslaved by their choices. However, I also recognize that Duncan has much stronger opinions on the subject than I do, so I understand why he uses the terms that he does. When he uses the terms, I have no misunderstanding of what he means, even if I don't agree. So I consider them perfectly accurate representations of his opinions. -Richard -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Fish Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:27 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a very shallow definition of the essence of freedom, from the perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really change anything. From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon actually qualifies as freedom. But the user can also choose to not be dependant upon anybody. They can choose to learn about programming and languages and fix it themselves. If you say you have no interest in doing that, then you are *choosing* to be dependant upon somebody, and now you have to pick who to become dependant on. But that doesn't change the fact that you can still choose to not be dependant on anybody. Sounds like freedom to me... Technically yes, I've said that all along. However, in real world practical terms, how truly *valuable* is this freedom...? Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the freedom that open source provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean and women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the word is meant to convey. I'm not saying that open source should be outlawed, or even that it shouldn't be advocated for, as it does have some advantages. I'm just saying that the quote unquote freedom, that it provides, doesn't really justify the use of words like freedomware and slaveryware. It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else. If my house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being able to put a nail in a stud. Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend could, and did. Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you haven't thought it through clearly enough. Yes, all analogies are imperfect by definition. But many people find that creating analogies to other industries and products helps them understand the issues. I should have been more specific and said that *software* analogies suck. The problem is that almost invariably the analogies are to three dimensional objects in the physical world, and software isn't even one dimensional, and thus, rarely do such analogies actually add any real clarity to the picture. I consider the facts, and look at the reality of the situation, and decide for myself what opinion to take. Fine. But why should someone who believes that the terms slaveryware and freedomware are the most accurate reflection of *their* opinion stop using the terms? For one, there isn't any good, factual, logical, basis to justify their use. Secondly, the use of such words in relation to something as trivial as open source, (trivial least in comparison to other things that freedom is justifiably used in relation to), tends trivialize the meaning of the word freedom. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the freedom that open source provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean and women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the word is meant to convey. No, but that is *my* opinion. However Duncan has stated previously that, while he probably wouldn't be willing to die to defend his freedom regarding open source software, that he _should_ be willing to do so. So by your standard, *his* use of those terms is really not all that far fetched. I do agree that the terms are very strong..much stronger than my feelings on the subject, which is why I do not use them. But you really should read what Duncan has said previously on this [1]. His feelings are very strong on the subject...strong enough to justify his use of these terms IMO. -Richard [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.amd64/8196 -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the freedom that open source provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean and women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the word is meant to convey. Uh oh; we're going to talk about Iraq now, aren't we? Let's keep this in perspective. We tend to drift towards the idea that computers are invincible, and that our data will survive forever, but one massive EM pulse, and all data our data is buried for the rest of time. I don't think that we can equate war to open source software. If someone held a gun to my head and told me to install Windows, I wouldn't say, No, I'm going to stand here with my Linux and you can't make me do otherwise... BAM! This is not to say that I like fascism. I am not pleased with dictatorship or the current regime in America, but I don't think that open-source software is worth dieing for. The principle, however, of freedom of choice may be, but that has nothing to do with the present discussion of playing WMV files on your computer. -Peter On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 15:42 -0700, Bob Young wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Fish Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:27 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a very shallow definition of the essence of freedom, from the perspective of most end users, your scenario doesn't really change anything. From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon actually qualifies as freedom. But the user can also choose to not be dependant upon anybody. They can choose to learn about programming and languages and fix it themselves. If you say you have no interest in doing that, then you are *choosing* to be dependant upon somebody, and now you have to pick who to become dependant on. But that doesn't change the fact that you can still choose to not be dependant on anybody. Sounds like freedom to me... Technically yes, I've said that all along. However, in real world practical terms, how truly *valuable* is this freedom...? Would you go to war, or be willing to die for the freedom that open source provides? If not, then equating it with the freedoms that real mean and women have fought and died for is to marginalize the importance the word is meant to convey. I'm not saying that open source should be outlawed, or even that it shouldn't be advocated for, as it does have some advantages. I'm just saying that the quote unquote freedom, that it provides, doesn't really justify the use of words like freedomware and slaveryware. It absolutely is just like a car, or a house, or anything else. If my house could only be modified by the original builder, it would never be modified -- I'd never even get a picture hung for want of being able to put a nail in a stud. Now maybe I can't add a drawbridge to my house myself, I can't do the welding or design, but my friend could, and did. Analogies suck, software isn't a car, or a house, or anything else, it's software. If you can't make you're point without analogies, maybe you haven't thought it through clearly enough. Yes, all analogies are imperfect by definition. But many people find that creating analogies to other industries and products helps them understand the issues. I should have been more specific and said that *software* analogies suck. The problem is that almost invariably the analogies are to three dimensional objects in the physical world, and software isn't even one dimensional, and thus, rarely do such analogies actually add any real clarity to the picture. I consider the facts, and look at the reality of the situation, and decide for myself what opinion to take. Fine. But why should someone who believes that the terms slaveryware and freedomware are the most accurate reflection of *their* opinion stop using the terms? For one, there isn't any good, factual, logical, basis to justify their use. Secondly, the use of such words in relation to something as trivial as open source, (trivial least in comparison to other things that freedom is justifiably used in relation to), tends trivialize the meaning of the word freedom. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Fish Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 3:18 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware) On 9/29/06, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But they *do* accurately reflect the relationship between vendors and users from Duncan's viewpoint. Your viewpoint is obviously different, but doesn't mean yours is the only true one. Oh please, spare me the relative truth crap. You can argue all you want that it's true from Duncan's perspective because that's the way it *feels* to him. In the end that's just feel good rationalization and total bullshit. Ok, so now you are saying that Duncan's opinion is wrong. You don't respect Duncan's opinion, but you expect us to respect yours? I call hypocrite. Nice strawman, I've never said, or implied that I didn't respect Duncan's opinion. In fact just the opposite, I've specifically told him that I believe he has thought a lot about this, and that I believe he is sincere. Thinking that someone is wrong, or believing that they are using unjustified terms to express their opinion is not disrespect. conveniently avoids the confrontational point, namely that there isn't any hard concrete logic and reason to support or justify the usage of words such as slaveryware and freedomware. Hard concrete logic: *everybody* has the right to modify and distribute open source software. How is that *not* freedom? As far as *modification* goes I've already admitted that technically you're correct that *is* a freedom, however to equate it with the freedoms that people have given their life to protect is to do a great disservice to the word freedom. As to distribution, I can show you literally thousands of examples of freeware and shareware that I can distribute legally, and they don't have source code available, so that's not an advantage of OSS. Oh, wait, I can hear you now: but that is no different than with closed source. You already know the counter argument: with closed source, the only people who can provide the patch are those who own the source. The point is that even when someone has the freedom to have someone else fix a bug in an OSS app, %99.999 of the time, people wait until it's done by the original developer/maintainer. Since that's the case, %99.999 of the time there is no difference between the way bugs are handled under OSS and the way they are handled under CSS. Given that, are CSS users really enslaved...No they are not. When was the last time that you personally submitted a *patch* for some open source app/utility/driver? With open source, anybody can produce and send a patch to the user. No, No, NO! *anybody* can't! and that's the point. You're scenario is nice in theory, but it doesn't actually work in the real world. I'm a software engineer, and I have enough trouble debugging and fixing code that I'm familiar with and have written my self. In the past, I use to write graphics drivers for a living, how successful and efficient do you think I would be at troubleshooting a problem with a database application? Answer: I would totally suck at it. Another example: It would take me a very long time to fix a problem with a SCSI driver, compared to someone who works on SCSI drivers regularly. Would *you* want to pay for the many extra hours of troubleshooting due to my inexperience with fill in blank type of code? All code is not the same, and software engineers are not all interchangeable. That's one reason why this users are *free* to have anyone modify/fix an open source app/utility/driver is ssuch total crap. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On Friday 29 September 2006 15:10, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)': -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] With Linux, even if I can't do it, there are hundreds of thousands of people who could, and it would only take a few bucks or a good friend to do it. It is not only possible, easily, but also there is a lot of choice on how to do it. From the end users perspective s/he is still dependent on someone else to make the changes. I wouldn't say having a choice of who to be dependent upon actually qualifies as freedom. If system X has all the choices available under system Y and system Y lacks at least one choice that is in system X. System X is definitely more free, and that choice is most definitely a freedom. But different freedoms have different values to different people; they also aren't the only thing that has value to many people. I think Duncan has adequately justified his use the the terms slaveryware and freedomware, and neither your rationed discourse, nor your (sometimes unfounded) assertions (that seem to be increasing in frequency) have convinced me otherwise. I think I'm just going to have to disagree with you on this point, but feel free continue your attempt to convince me otherwise, either on- or off-list. I feel that you understand the freedoms provided by free software at or beyond my ability to explain them so, I leave you to judge those freedoms and Duncan's speech as you will, for now. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh pgpOxPWJPrfr4.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Duncan Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:21 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware) Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:01:19 -0700: When was the last time that you personally submitted a *patch* for some open source app/utility/driver? Matter of fact, altho I don't claim to do C or C++, I do do a bit of scripting, and have submitted several ebuild and initscripts patches this year. =8^) Good for you, I honestly mean that, that's a very good thing. Of course, I'm not most people nor would I /want/ to be, but certainly, understanding scripting isn't /too/ hard, and most Gentoo users in any case should be able to do it and thus post patches at that level with little difficulty. Again though, most Gentoo users do tend to still be a cut above most Linux users, technical literacy wise. Still, bash scripting is something anyone that can decently manage his own system should be able to do if they choose to, and the fact that nearly all Linux systems use shell scripting for their init sequence demonstrably leaves them freer, more open to users, than the comparatively opaque boot process of many closed source systems out there. (I know, this is one thing I immediately appreciated about Linux when switching from MS, and taking apart and reassembling the Mandrake initscripts is how I actually learned my bash scripting.) Since adopting Linux as my secondary OS, I've learned a lot of bash scripting, and I've chosen to dig pretty deep in to perl, so that I could create an app for extracting and archiving packets from a TCP/IP stream that meet a specified criteria. That being said, way less than 5 percent of the population has even the slightest bit of interest in learning the things that you and I have chosen to dig in to, it's just not their thing. They are more interested in gymnastics, or skiing, or scuba diving, or directing movies, or counseling drug abusers, or feeding the hungry, or any one of thousands of other things. They are *never* *ever* going to be interested in learning bash programming, no matter how easy or fun you tell them it is, and that's perfectly okay, and that's as it should be. Those people are no less free for using CSS, and the fact is, that those people are the vast majority of the population. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 5:31 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) I think Duncan has adequately justified his use the terms slaveryware and freedomware, and neither your rationed discourse, nor your (sometimes unfounded) assertions (that seem to be increasing in frequency) have convinced me otherwise. I claim no monopoly on truth, if you believe one or more of my claims is insufficiently supported by my arguments please note it, and explain your reasons for a contrary view, I'll either explain my self better, or admit that I was wrong. I think I'm just going to have to disagree with you on this point, but feel free continue your attempt to convince me otherwise, either on- or off-list. I feel that you understand the freedoms provided by free software at or beyond my ability to explain them so, I leave you to judge those freedoms and Duncan's speech as you will, for now. Thank you, I consider that a more enlightened response than I've received from some posters. The truth is that I've enjoyed this debate, and though the course of explaining my position, have actually looked at some of the facets of the argument I'd not considered before. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
On Friday 29 September 2006 19:01, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)': No, No, NO! *anybody* can't! Yes, anybody can. However, most people decide that the effort required for them to make the change is greater than the effort required to have someone else make the change for them. Writing and maintaining software is not something that you are born into; anyone (with enough effort) can do it. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh pgpq4bGDJ1cnH.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Bob Young wrote: That being said, way less than 5 percent of the population has even the slightest bit of interest in learning the things that you and I have chosen to dig in to...Those people are no less free for using CSS, and the fact is, that those people are the vast majority of the population. Actually, I'd tend to differ on this point. Many people on this list either currently do or eventually will work in a non-IT-oriented industry. Such industries tend to not hire many programmers, and those that they do hire tend to coordinate outsourced effort, and function mainly as integrators of pre-packaged functionality. Even so, most of these industries will require their vendors to escrow their source code and will generally prefer FOSS when all other things are equal (which unfortunately is not always the case). Why? They'll NEVER modify the source code themselves, so why should they care? Simple - one day if their vendor doesn't meet their needs they can give that source code to somebody else to maintain - possibly another vendor who can use the source to smooth the migration process to their platform. Would you buy a car that used 387/863 bolts and parts of other non-standard dimensions? You might never fix your own car, but you will recognize that if you buy something that follows a standard it will be cheaper for you to pay others to fix it. A car which uses parts which have been around for 10 years will be VERY cheap to maintain compared to one that requires import parts from a single supplier. Open-source software has a lot of benefits even for non-programmers. Buy a proprietary DVR and you can almost guarantee that you won't be able to migrate your programming when you upgrade models in a few years, and you probably won't be able to upgrade it. Buy a pre-packaged DVR that uses FOSS and most likely there WILL be an upgrade and migration path - it might cost you to have it taken care of for you, but with the proprietary system it will cost you a LOT more. So, FOSS has a lot of potential to benefit ordinary computer users. Not just those who tinker with their PCs. Does that mean that it ALWAYS makes sense to use an FOSS package, when a proprietary package better meets your requirements? Of course not! But, I always put FOSS on MY list of requirements, and if I have to trade-off one requirement for another I do so as-needed. But, I've gotten burned by proprietary software many times, so I'm inclined to lean towards FOSS unless it really doesn't meet some fundamental need. You have to figure in the total cost of ownership - which includes future expansion and migration to the next platform. Sure, it is easier to store my email in Outlook than in a .maildir served up by IMAP - but when the next fancy email client comes along the latter requires zero effort to migrate. Just my two cents - if you feel some requirement is lacking in FOSS proprietary software might be right for you. But factor in all the costs - it might not be as good a choice as it appears on the surface. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFHdHvG4/rWKZmVWkRAs8JAKDMFt5Wz+nMcswk6m1bd6M7cYa46gCgpbu6 Tj25H+uhuRe+oKnc4gErQw0= =6vPv -END PGP SIGNATURE- smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Duncan Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 6:33 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) For me (and it appears for you as well), a greater understanding of and respect for another's position, regardless of whether one agrees or not, is an end in itself. Thanks for making that point, and yes, the same goes for me. =8^) Now that I agree with, well said and that seems like a good place to leave the debate. -- Respect. Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:09 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware) On Friday 29 September 2006 19:01, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)': No, No, NO! *anybody* can't! Yes, anybody can. However, most people decide that the effort required for them to make the change is greater than the effort required to have someone else make the change for them. Geez, google for the word pedantic. -- Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: Richard Freeman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 7:10 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift -slaveryware) -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Bob Young wrote: That being said, way less than 5 percent of the population has even the slightest bit of interest in learning the things that you and I have chosen to dig in to...Those people are no less free for using CSS, and the fact is, that those people are the vast majority of the population. Open-source software has a lot of benefits even for non-programmers. Buy a proprietary DVR and you can almost guarantee that you won't be able to migrate your programming when you upgrade models in a few years, and you probably won't be able to upgrade it. Buy a pre-packaged DVR that uses FOSS and most likely there WILL be an upgrade and migration path - it might cost you to have it taken care of for you, but with the proprietary system it will cost you a LOT more. Sorry, I use Outlook to read this list at work, and initially when I see posts to the list from you, it says that the message has an invalid digital signature, that message was displayed for this message as well, normally I just ignore and automatically delete such messages. That invalid digital signature message is not displayed for most other posters, so I can only assume that it is something different about your posts. I have a bit of trouble taking somone seriously who advocates open standards, yet chooses to personally use a digital signature that displays as invalid on one of the most widely used email clients in the world, that seems a bit inconsistant to me. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Duncan Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:27 AM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV? I didn't switch to Linux after a decade on slaveryware just to be enslaved by a different master, and enslaved it is, Not really, *most* people will be, just as enslaved even if they do use a GPLed version of the software. when the lack of ATI and NVidia drivers is the only reason xorg-7.1 is not yet stable on x86 or amd64, and it's the same thing with other distributions -- their actions are holding a large segment of the would-be free software world hostage. Call it what you like, I call choosing to be a hostage to the whims of a software overlord choosing to be enslaved, and I both refuse to do it, and refuse to have my money go toward funding the slave-masters! How is that different from people who can't read code being at the whims of Linux kernel developers? The fact is, that's a weak argument at best, it's valid for a very small group of people, namely programmers. Everyone else, even if they use freedomware, has to depend on *someone else* to fix/modify/update the app/utility/driver. I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer working at nVidia. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master. Richard Stallman There really is no such thing as slaveryware or freedomware it's all just software, and anyone who doesn't read/write code, which is the vast majority of the population by the way, is dependent (i.e. enslaved by RS's terminology) on someone else, who that someone else is, doesn't really make much difference in terms of the dynamics of the relationship. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Duncan Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:47 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:16:29 -0700: Not really, *most* people will be, just as enslaved even if they do use a GPLed version of the software. Keepin' this one brief. Not really back at you, too, as the often used car with a welded shut hood analogy makes clear. Not everyone is a mechanic either, and many haven't the faintest urge to touch stuff under the hood, yet even those appreciate the value of a hood that opens, Appreciating the value of something, and having freedom, or being enslaved are very different things. and being able to take their car to someone besides the dealer for service. That's not freedom, they are still completely dependent on the mechanic they take the car to. I don't really see how moving the dependency from one entity to another could be called freedom. My issue here is with the terms being used ( i.e. slaveryware,, and freedomware), and what they infer about the relationship between a vendor, and end users. IOW why are the end users who are dependent upon developers of XYZ open source driver/app, less enslaved than other users who are dependent on developers who work at ABC company ...? Just because I don't understand C/C++ myself doesn't mean I want the software source hood welded shut on anything /I/ choose to run! As I said in a parallel post, the fact that Sun was significantly later to the AMD64 party than most FLOSS projects of similarly common use in the community is definitely significant. Had Java been open source, it's a pretty good bet it would have been ported far sooner than it was, particularly given the number of folks with funds or employees to invest in the project that run java as one component on their server infrastructure. I agree, and that is a perfectly valid argument (faster porting), as one of the merits of open source. However, it doesn't actually provide any greater *freedom* to most end users. You can argue that they *benefit* from something being ported more quickly, but that's very different from suggesting that open source provides freedom to end users and that close source is enslaving them. Of course, something that needs said that often gets overlooked in all this is that I do *NOT* expect or demand that everyone else hold the same viewpoint I do. I have a pretty strong personal belief system in this area and recognize it as such. I certainly want you to have the freedom to choose OSS only, and I applaud your conviction for standing up for what you believe in. From my viewpoint as a software engineer, I dislike seeing inflammatory terms such as slaveryware and freedomware thrown about when they don't actually represent the true reality of the situation. I'd rather see the debate take place without the need to resort to inaccurate and inflammatory words. My tough standards are my own to live by, if I can, nobody else's unless they want to adopt them as well. I'm not suggesting you should change your opinion or views in any way. I'm only suggesting that slaveryware and freedomware are not accurate terms. I'm suggesting that the more general open source GPLed CSS OSS closed source etc, are descriptive enough to make the point, and they do so without being somewhat condescending and mildly insulting to others who may not share your strong views of open source. Just because I have strong views on a subject and am not afraid to voice/type them, doesn't mean I can't respect other viewpoints as well -- they just aren't /my/ viewpoints. Sometimes that point gets lost in the debate and folks seem to think I'm demanding they have the same standards. Far from it! No, I've never thought you were saying that, I just find that the term freedomware insinuates a righteousness that isn't justified by the actual dynamics of the vendor/user relationship, and slaveryware denotes a negative that isn't very well supported by reality either. One must come to such a realization on one's own, and forcing it (1) won't work, (2) is actively counterproductive, and (3) would be counter to the very values I hold so dear, to the point that the very idea is anathema (yes, that's a strong word, but chosen deliberately as precisely what I mean) to me! I've never thought you were trying to force anything on anybody, I'm just saying I think the terms you've chosen, overstate your case, and are a bit disrespectful to anyone who might be on the other side of the question. -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
On Thursday 28 September 2006 16:32, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)': -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Duncan Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:16:29 -0700: That's not freedom, they are still completely dependent on the mechanic they take the car to. No, they aren't. They can use another mechanic. Instead of having to consult *one particular entity* they can consult *any entity of a particular class*. They gain a choice, which means they have more freedom. If you still aren't convinced ask yourself which is more free: being able to stand on only *one particular* square meter of public property or being able to stand on *any* square meter (and, of course, being able to change your choice each time you choose to stand). I agree, and that is a perfectly valid argument (faster porting), as one of the merits of open source. However, it doesn't actually provide any greater *freedom* to most end users. It most certainly does. No matter how many resources I give my local programmer's co-op, they can't port Macromedia's Flash application to 64-linux the source [and an appropriate licence] from Macromedia. (They might [subject to software patentes] be able to provide a replacement.) However, I can take any piece for free software and, without consultation or aid from the copyright holders, have my local programmer's co-op port it to a new architecture. There may be significant resource outlay, but it is at least possible. With non-free software, you are (at best) on the wrong end of a monopoly position. -- If there's one thing we've established over the years, it's that the vast majority of our users don't have the slightest clue what's best for them in terms of package stability. -- Gentoo Developer Ciaran McCreesh pgp1cT1FNN8q5.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:31 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) On Thursday 28 September 2006 13:16, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)': Not really, *most* people will be, just as enslaved even if they do use a GPLed version of the software. Not true. The freedom to modify the code is important even if the user cannot directly exert it, because it allows the user to pay someone *other than the copyright holder* to do the modifications for them. So...? instead of being dependent upon the original vendor, the user is dependent upon the contractor s/he hires to do the modifications. I don't consider the option of transferring dependence from one entity to another entity as being real freedom. I will grant you that in instances where the original vendor no longer wishes to maintain/fix/update a piece of software, I believe that the source should be released, either GPLed, or just pure public domain, but that's not what we're talking about in this debate. Also, anyone is allowed to give their friend free software and to use free software for any purpose. Those freedoms are not provided to users of non-free software. Now you're muddying the waters between libre and gratis, I can give you hundreds of examples of freeware or shareware that I can *legally* give to my friends without charge, but that don't have source code available. So in the sentence above what exactly is free software and what differentiates it from non-free software? when the lack of ATI and NVidia drivers is the only reason xorg-7.1 is not yet stable on x86 or amd64, and it's the same thing with other distributions -- their actions are holding a large segment of the would-be free software world hostage. Call it what you like, I call choosing to be a hostage to the whims of a software overlord choosing to be enslaved, and I both refuse to do it, and refuse to have my money go toward funding the slave-masters! How is that different from people who can't read code being at the whims of Linux kernel developers? No one is at the whims of the kernel developers. Even if you can't read code, you can communicate with people *other than the kernel developers* who can read code. Okay, but since you can't read code, you have to *trust* whomever you do contact, they could just as easily be mistaken, or make an error without you knowing it. Why is being dependent upon someone else instead of fill in the blank, but still dependent nonetheless, considered freedom? You aren't forced to trust the kernel developers word that patch X is better for linux. Sure, it may improve performance in 90% of the cases -- but what if you are in the other 10%? Even if you don't understand code, it's simple enough to reverse a patch. Uand binary patches can't be reversed, that doesn't require source code to be available. I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer working at nVidia. Because *no one* is dependent on the linux kernel developers. You can make the needed changes. If you don't have the ability to, As is the case for 99.99 percent of the population. you can get someone else to using other resources available to you. So instead of depending on a kernel developer, I'm depending on a contractor I hire, I just don't see that as dramatically different. E.g. I really need my lawn mowed and I hate doing it; I'll trade you a mowed lawn for a kernel patch. LOL..nice in theory, but I seriously doubt that many people are actually bartering for kernel patches. Someone *has* to pay for the cost of maintaining and improving software. That's economic fact. NVidia says you have to pay *them* to improve their software. Linux kernel developers says you can pay *anyone with the skills* (or use your own time) to improve the software. Clearly, you have more options (and are thus more free) with free software. If I'm not doing it myself, I see little difference whether I pay one entity, or pay another. There really is no such thing as slaveryware or freedomware it's all Yes, there very well is. I want software I'm free to distribute (I need freedomware). That's fine for you, but it isn't important to most users, and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't need to be. I want software I'm free to use how I see fit (I need freedom ware). Depends on what how you define see fit. For most users there is nothing specifically provided by open source that they absolutely require. I want software I can profile and audit myself That's fine for you, but it isn't important to most users
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:57 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) On Thursday 28 September 2006 16:32, Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote about 'RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)': -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Duncan Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:16:29 -0700: That's not freedom, they are still completely dependent on the mechanic they take the car to. No, they aren't. They can use another mechanic. Instead of having to consult *one particular entity* they can consult *any entity of a particular class*. They gain a choice, which means they have more freedom. That's almost entirely a theoretical difference, in the real world this freedom is actually exercised very little if at all. I'm sure there are exceptions occasionally, but the fact is, the vast majority of OSS users who can't read/write source code, will never once in their entire life, contract with a third party to modify an app/driver/utility that they have the source code for. If you still aren't convinced ask yourself which is more free: being able to stand on only *one particular* square meter of public property or being able to stand on *any* square meter (and, of course, being able to change your choice each time you choose to stand). I the theoretical world you're correct, in the real world people don't stand on a single square meter of public property or make decisions about doing so. With non-free software, you are (at best) on the wrong end of a monopoly position. Intellectually you're technically correct, in real world terms it's a distinction without a difference. -- Regards, Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
very very easy. to understand all this... OK, lets see the simple example. I have ATI card with x.org-7.1 drivers, nothing speciall - just poor BUT stable 2D 3D I probably COULD use closed-source driver BUT if my machine then will NOT work properly, I will achieve memory leaks etc (past shows many examples..) what can I do ? NOTHING. the only way is to use open-source drivers instead of closed-source, see : it's OK now, and then say to ATI guys : hey, sth wrong is in your drivers :P:P:P (and then I will have no answer or some answers after some months..) it's stupid to say : open source (as GPL, LGPL, FLOSS etc..) is not necessary as we can just buy open source (but closed in fact) software. because of - closed source is IP (intellectuall property - watever this means, abstractive and poor words) and NOBODY exept the owner CAN modify it, change etc. then, as result, I have to BUY it every time I see new bug in software. As I sale some software in my work, I can see it many times that ONLY because of I work with right people - they play RIGHT on this market and I CAN achieve the result as non-buggy-software sold only once, if necessary upgraded a few times. but this is very speciall, not-so-wide market of specialised solutions, B2B - and NOBODY can say this is the same as whole-sale - I do mean SOHO market with hundreds thousands buyers and hundreds of sellers So - believe me, I will NEVER use closed source IF i have any alternative software, even if the preformance of this closed-source is about 150% of really OPEN source solutions. because of. I do NOT want to argue this, just its my experience ;) thats the DEBIAN way ;)) @ gentoo amd64station :) @ gentoo list;) On the other hand - in my opinion - B2B is completely another thing, and sometimes there is NOT any other solution than closed-source or BINARY software, but maintained sold by RIGHT people, with full support many features which makes this way right. regards, Piotr -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote: No, they aren't. They can use another mechanic. Instead of having to consult *one particular entity* they can consult *any entity of a particular class*. They gain a choice, which means they have more freedom. Uhuh, I'm sure the Debian devs will gladly fix a bug in portage. *silent chuckling* -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 developer -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware)
-Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Duncan Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:17 PM To: gentoo-amd64@lists.gentoo.org Subject: [gentoo-amd64] Re: How To Play WMV (thread drift - slaveryware) Bob Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Thu, 28 Sep 2006 15:43:12 -0700: I fail to see that it really makes much of a difference whether Jane Avgusr is dependent on a Linux kernel developer or on an engineer working at nVidia. Because *no one* is dependent on the linux kernel developers. You can make the needed changes. If you don't have the ability to, As is the case for 99.99 percent of the population. That may be, but 99.99 percent of the population isn't me. True, but discussions regarding moral, ethical, or general policy questions, should have a broader base and application than my personal and specific opinion and viewpoint. As I said in a different reply, slaveryware vs. freedomware is simply the point in my experience I've come to. I don't expect others to have come to the same point, or necessarily find my terms represent their experience. All I'm doing is fairly representing my own experience, calling things exactly as I see them, unvarnished with political correctness. I don't care about political correctness, I care about reality, and in the real world, words have meaning, they don't just mean what each of us chooses for them personally. Just because you personally perceive CSS as slaveryware doesn't mean that such a term is justified by the actual reality of the situation. I consider it somewhat of a copout, and just a bit disingenuous, to justify use of inflammatory terms with the it's just my viewpoint defense. I could justify my use of the word whore when referring to women by saying I don't mean it as derogatory. I could say that I'm not using it as a slur, and that I perceive it as just a general term. I could say no one else should take it as meaning otherwise when I use it, however that doesn't change the meaning one bit, nor does it change what people hear when I use the word, nor should it. The same argument could, and has, been used for nigger, faggot, Nazi, and a whole host of other inflammatory words. Just saying that you're in a different place in your journey doesn't change the meaning of words, nor how accurately (or NOT) they describe the reality of the situation. the skills* (or use your own time) to improve the software. Clearly, you have more options (and are thus more free) with free software. If I'm not doing it myself, I see little difference whether I pay one entity, or pay another. new drug to save your life or that of a loved one, or buying food and/or paying rent. The fact of the matter is, many suppliers gives you vastly more freedom/flexibility than a single supplier, and with that freedom/flexibility not coincidentally comes a rather drastic drop in cost, yet the suppliers still seem to stay n business. Back to software, while having open source does indeed give slightly more choice in a technical/theoretical sense, in reality, this additional choice is *never* exercised by the vast majority of users. If a freedom is never exercised by 99.99 percent of users who have it, do you actually think that in any realistic way the users who don't have the choice are in any real sense enslaved? -- Regards Bob Young -- gentoo-amd64@gentoo.org mailing list
