Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 04:49:10PM +0200, Christian Aust wrote: [Snip about FS on laptops] Exactly, esp. when you happen to have a ACPI-only laptop: Sometimes you don't know when your battery runs out. I know exactly when my laptop will run out of battery using ACPI. Since ACPI gives me a) the powerdrain in mW from the battery and b) how much power in mWH there's left in the battery. The calculation is left as an excerise to the reader (and my ruby-script ;). Of course, it could be lying. 3) APM or ACPI ? ACPI will supersede APM one day, until then APM has much better features (sleep, hibernate). ACPI has sleep and hibernate. 'echo -n 3 /proc/acpi/sleep' for sleep 'echo -n 4 /proc/acpi/sleep' for hibernate Not sure about the numbers or hibernate. I don't have any partition on which it can save the RAM. ACPI also gives me access to throttling and performance stepping. And atleast performance stepping is crucial to squeeze a few extra hours out of that battery. Throttling doesn't do that much though, just makes the machine slower. ;) E.g. I can get lower power consumtion by stepping down my 2Ghz processor to 1.2Ghz, than using the throttle. I can still watch movies with mplayer with the stepdown, but not with throttling. YMMV ofcourse. :) 4) Which kernel to use ? gentoo-sources and development-sources, just to check what's in queue for the next linux release. 5) Framebuffer or not ? No framebuffer... Used to run it, but figured it was just a waste of powercycles since I'm booting into X anyway. As for the windowmanager, I use Ion (devel version). It's /the/ keyboard driven windowmanager, and since all mice suck on laptops (whether it's a touchpad or the that rubbery g-spot on the middle of the keyboard), I like to stick to keyboards. Ion is not for everyone, and I doubt it's even usable for most people, but it suits my needs perfectly... Just my two ören (pending conversion to Euro cents) //F -- To segfault is human; to bluescreen moronic. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
Fredrik Jagenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev: ACPI also gives me access to throttling and performance stepping. And atleast performance stepping is crucial to squeeze a few extra hours out of that battery. Throttling doesn't do that much though, just makes the machine slower. ;) I have experienced quite some problems with ACPI om my ASUS L8400. I think the root of the problem has with heat to do, it behaves really wierd when the CPU load is high and the CPU becomes hot. The temperature thresholds change repeatedly, all of a sudden lm_sensors say the alloed interval is between 0 and -99, and the temperature is 0, which makes the fan shutdown. Then it might throttle down to cool down, all of a sudden the temperature scale has changed anew and the temperature alarm goes off. Sometimes this starts the fan, sometimes it shuts down. With APM enabled I only notice jerky performance, the whole system appears to freeze every now and then, but it doesn't shut down, the sensor values remain sensible and the fan runs all the time as long as the machine is hot. The drawback is that the clock drags severely during things like huge emerges and such. /Rasmus Wiman http://rasmus.wiman.org http://dagbok.wiman.org I program my home computer Beam myself into the future -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
Hi ng, Am Freitag, 11. Juli 2003 14:36 schrieb MAL: ... ext3 can also be set to commit the journal less frequently, (30 mins instead of 5 mins). To be honest though, unless you want the hard drive to sit in power saving mode all the time, the small write required to write a journal every 5 minutes will use almost no power. That is afaik not correct. The min should be seconds and e.g. noflushd doesn't work with journaling filesystems. It is right that you can change the commit frequency (afaik since 2.4.20), but this don't really solve the problem, with noflushd. I hope this helps. If you like to use noflushd you should you ext2, which is rock solid, but don't have journaling support. /CyPy -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
On 2003.07.11 07:27, Timo Boettcher wrote: I disagree here. I would use ext3, because of the journal. A laptop is very rarely used in such stable environment as a desktop, and I would choose a the additional fs-security over few minutes more runtime anytime. But of course I understand your point. I use my laptop for school and work. Unfortunately, after coming home last night and falling asleep doing my homework, the laptop battery ran out. I would definately never use anything except a journalling file system. Currently using reiser. 2) Which Window manager to use ? I usually use gnome/metacity as desktop environments, however, I find them both power and resource consuming, any suggestions ? I use Openbox (on my Pentium 75 Notebook with 14MB ram), but any *Box or Windowmaker, even enlightenment should do. Here http://www.windowmaker.org/features-performance.html is a nice comparison between some Windowmanagers. I'm using Gnome on mine. Another environment to check out might be xfce4, it looks rather impressive. fluxbox is nice (the devel builds support AA, but no tabs at first glance). I also think windowmaker is a very good choice, as well. 3) APM or ACPI ? I have tried both and can't make a choice, does anyone have any experience to share ? My Notebook is to old for ACPI *g*. If you have a choice, great. I've got a new centrino laptop, and I'm unsure of apm support. But I can guarantee that most of it is acpi (processor scaling, thermal sensor, etc). 4) Which kernel to use ? I am a bit lost here, I use the gs-sources because of the cpu speed scaling options, but I do not know if this is the best choice. I use gentoo-sources, but don't ask me why. I couldn't give a solid reason. I was using gs-sources, but had some trouble getting dri working on the radeon in this machine, so I switched to 2.4.22-pre3-ac1. Works like a charm, including ACPI support. 5) Framebuffer or not ? Is framebuffer power consuming ? I would choose framebuffer over X anytime, because its a lot less CPU/Memory consuming. I was told that Links and Mplayer run in FB without problems. I use X mainly, but I still have the framebuffer enabled. I'm having some nasty issues switching back and forth between console an X that I havent looked into solving. It depends on your use. Do you merely open alot of xterms and do your work in there? You might be better off with framebuffer with 12 (instead of 6) consoles, or use screen. Good luck. -Chris I pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
Timo Boettcher wrote: Another environment to check out might be xfce4, it looks rather impressive. Got an url for that? screenshots? http://www.xfce.org/ 3) APM or ACPI ? I have tried both and can't make a choice, does anyone have any experience to share ? My Notebook is to old for ACPI *g*. If you have a choice, great. I didn't. I was referring more to Jonathan's statement. I don't really have a choice either. 5) Framebuffer or not ? Is framebuffer power consuming ? I would choose framebuffer over X anytime, because its a lot less CPU/Memory consuming. I was told that Links and Mplayer run in FB without problems. I use X mainly, but I still have the framebuffer enabled. I'm having some nasty issues switching back and forth between console an X that I havent looked into solving. It depends on your use. Do you merely open alot of xterms and do your work in there? Wasn't that the reason for wm's being developed? *g* You might be better off with framebuffer with 12 (instead of 6) consoles, or use screen. Thats not a question of FB, but of your inittab. I currently have 8 consoles. I know, but if you are going to use X and have xterms all over, you dont really need a dozen consoles. If you were using framebuffer alone, it might be worth considering, or you could use screen instead/as well. -Chris I -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
Time for me to chime in and add my $0.02 worth... XFCE 4.0 is excellent. It's not quite as full featured as XFCE 3.0, but the improved graphic interface far, far outways it's shortcomings. I am now using it quite extensively on the various laptops I own and admin. Everyone seems to like it so far. As for ACPI on laptops. The stated goal of the ACPI team is to eventually replace APM in the kernel. APM hardware is old technology which ACPI software will eventually support as well as it does ACPI compliant hardware. ACPI in linux is no where near what it is in windows, but it's coming along quite well. That said, I've been able to finally use the ACPI drivers in kernel 2.4.22-pre4 on a previously APM only laptop that I tote around. It's an old Compaq 1278. The apci drivers load and behave well with ACPID... On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:38:44 -0400 Chris I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Timo Boettcher wrote: Another environment to check out might be xfce4, it looks rather impressive. Got an url for that? screenshots? http://www.xfce.org/ 3) APM or ACPI ? I have tried both and can't make a choice, does anyone have any experience to share ? My Notebook is to old for ACPI *g*. If you have a choice, great. I didn't. I was referring more to Jonathan's statement. I don't really have a choice either. 5) Framebuffer or not ? Is framebuffer power consuming ? I would choose framebuffer over X anytime, because its a lot less CPU/Memory consuming. I was told that Links and Mplayer run in FB without problems. I use X mainly, but I still have the framebuffer enabled. I'm having some nasty issues switching back and forth between console an X that I havent looked into solving. It depends on your use. Do you merely open alot of xterms and do your work in there? Wasn't that the reason for wm's being developed? *g* You might be better off with framebuffer with 12 (instead of 6) consoles, or use screen. Thats not a question of FB, but of your inittab. I currently have 8 consoles. I know, but if you are going to use X and have xterms all over, you dont really need a dozen consoles. If you were using framebuffer alone, it might be worth considering, or you could use screen instead/as well. -Chris I -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- ** Registered Linux User Number 185956 http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=ensafe=offgroup=linux Join me in chat at #linux-users on irc.freenode.net This email account no longers accepts attachments or messages containing html. 11:30pm up 2 days, 9:28, 4 users, load average: 0.40, 0.26, 0.16 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
Jerry McBride wrote: Time for me to chime in and add my $0.02 worth... XFCE 4.0 is excellent. It's not quite as full featured as XFCE 3.0, but the improved graphic interface far, far outways it's shortcomings. I am now using it quite extensively on the various laptops I own and admin. Everyone seems to like it so far. Going away on vacation, will give xfce the full out-of-doors treatment. As for ACPI on laptops. The stated goal of the ACPI team is to eventually replace APM in the kernel. APM hardware is old technology which ACPI software will eventually support as well as it does ACPI compliant hardware. ACPI in linux is no where near what it is in windows, but it's coming along quite well. That said, I've been able to finally use the ACPI drivers in kernel 2.4.22-pre4 on a previously APM only laptop that I tote around. It's an old Compaq 1278. The apci drivers load and behave well with ACPID... ACPI works so well for me on this laptop I have not even checked the extent of the apm support. I am using 2.4.22-pre3-ac1, so maybe I am using a little apm, however unlikely (new centrino notebook) -Chris I -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
Please excuse the top posting but this email client is awkward. I saw a laptop file system shoot-out, unfortunately I've no idea what the link is but it was high up in google. The guy compared JFS, XFS, Reisier and the exts. Resiser came out on top for battery life when he ran various tests, and he didn't use notail or noatime options. So I would go for this one because I would definitely like the journalling on a laptop, like Jonathan says. Enlightment is my favourite wm but the pager polls the desktops by default to keep the fancy pager display up to date. This would need to be turned off for maximum power saving, or could be set so it doesn't update unless the window is in focus. I must try using framebuffer instead of X, didn't know you could do that it sounds interesting! I love X for networking but I hear that work underway to create a faster display solution? Is this the way to go? Last I heard development seemed very fragmented on the alternative to X issue. Barry MacMahon Develops Web applications at Wellington house, Slough, UK Tel: +44 1753 216674 Ext: 274 Timo Boettcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jonathan C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: 11-07-2003 12:27 Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops Please respond to gentoo-user Hi Jonathan, Nachricht vom Freitag, 11. Juli 2003, 02:49:14: Hi all, I just wanted to collect some general ideas about how to set up a laptop for optimal performance and power savings. Here are a few thoughts and questions, if anyone has any comments or answers please answer ! 1) Which Filesystem to use ? I think the best filesystem for a laptop is ext2. It does not have a journal, which should mean fewer disk accesses hence less power consumption. However, it's kind of slow, so I am wondering if reiserfs with the notail and noatime options would not be better. I disagree here. I would use ext3, because of the journal. A laptop is very rarely used in such stable environment as a desktop, and I would choose a the additional fs-security over few minutes more runtime anytime. But of course I understand your point. 2) Which Window manager to use ? I usually use gnome/metacity as desktop environments, however, I find them both power and resource consuming, any suggestions ? I use Openbox (on my Pentium 75 Notebook with 14MB ram), but any *Box or Windowmaker, even enlightenment should do. Here http://www.windowmaker.org/features-performance.html is a nice comparison between some Windowmanagers. 3) APM or ACPI ? I have tried both and can't make a choice, does anyone have any experience to share ? My Notebook is to old for ACPI *g*. 4) Which kernel to use ? I am a bit lost here, I use the gs-sources because of the cpu speed scaling options, but I do not know if this is the best choice. I use gentoo-sources, but don't ask me why. I couldn't give a solid reason. 5) Framebuffer or not ? Is framebuffer power consuming ? I would choose framebuffer over X anytime, because its a lot less CPU/Memory consuming. I was told that Links and Mplayer run in FB without problems. That's all I can think of, Thanks in advance, Jonathan Timo -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
Timo Boettcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:27:16 +0200: I would use ext3, because of the journal. A laptop is very rarely used in such stable environment as a desktop, and I would choose a the additional fs-security over few minutes more runtime anytime. Exactly, esp. when you happen to have a ACPI-only laptop: Sometimes you don't know when your battery runs out. 3) APM or ACPI ? I have tried both and can't make a choice, does anyone have any experience to share ? My Notebook is to old for ACPI *g*. ACPI will supersede APM one day, until then APM has much better features (sleep, hibernate). So, if your laptop is supported by APM, go for it. If not, hope that someone happened to patch the very latest ACPI into your kernel, quality changes almost every week. Some release supported switching off my laptops display, the next didn't, the next did it again. Strange. 4) Which kernel to use ? I am a bit lost here, I use the gs-sources because of the cpu speed scaling options, but I do not know if this is the best choice. I use gentoo-sources, but don't ask me why. I couldn't give a solid reason. If you need ACPI, you should go for gentoo (stable relase), ck-patches (current patches) or pfeiffer-sources (kind of gentoo-beta, afaik). If you don't, choose as you like. 5) Framebuffer or not ? Is framebuffer power consuming ? I would choose framebuffer over X anytime, because its a lot less CPU/Memory consuming. I was told that Links and Mplayer run in FB without problems. I like framebuffer for the better display of small fonts, but my graphics adapter isn't accelerated under fbdev (ATI radeon 7500 mobility); So I run X using their driver. If you don't care for nice fonts and stuff, leave it out. HTH, - Christian -- Christian Aust mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] icq: 84500990 - Yahoo!: datenimperator - MSN: datenimperator PGP: A073 F9CD 2F23 25D2 EB95 E7A3 B9B4 2AF3 E103 DB5A -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
yOn Fri, 11 Jul 2003, MAL wrote: Timo Boettcher wrote: 1) Which Filesystem to use ? I disagree here. I would use ext3, because of the journal. A laptop is very rarely used in such stable environment as a desktop, and I would choose a the additional fs-security over few minutes more runtime anytime. But of course I understand your point. ext3 can also be set to commit the journal less frequently, (30 mins instead of 5 mins). To be honest though, unless you want the hard drive to sit in power saving mode all the time, the small write required to write a journal every 5 minutes will use almost no power. would it be possible to switch the interval depending on wether you're working on battery electrical outlet? mvg Finne Boonen *** Beware of the spring, it'll jump you when you least expect it -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [DEBATE] Gentoo on laptops
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 02:49:14 +0200 Jonathan C. wrote: 3) APM or ACPI ? I have tried both and can't make a choice, does anyone have any experience to share ? Depends: If want suspend mode and APM provides it on your machine use APM, if ACPI makes problems use APM, otherwise use ACPI. The big difference is that ACPI is still work in progress and lacks some features, but APM is not fully supported by many modern laptops. 5) Framebuffer or not ? Is framebuffer power consuming ? The most energy consuming part is the display backlight, this is not related to resolution, so framebuffer won't use more power than normal VGA console (and normal VGA console in window mode feels strange) Marius -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
