Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 9:06:29 AM CET Alan McKinnon wrote: > On 13/12/2017 01:23, allan gottlieb wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 11 2017, Jorge Almeida wrote: > >> On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: > >>> Just my two cents. I will not answer any reply to my little contribution > >>> to > >>> this thread; > >> > >> Good. I can't remember any intervention from you that I would miss. > > > > That makes one of us. > > > > As a gnome user I needed to use systemd when gnome-3 came about. While > > I have nothing useful to say pro or con about systemd, I strongly > > believe Canek has contributed a number of helpful comments to this > > group. > > Yes, this. > > Some historical correctnesses about Canek: > > - He has been here for years > - He has contributed here for years > - He supports systemd and has offered more help and explanation about > systemd to it's users on this list than any other single person, bar none > - He has never, not once, slagged off SysV Init, OpenRC or any other > init system, ot the creators or the users > - He has never posted rude or inflamatory comments about anyone arguing > against him > - He has never resorted to ad-hominem and never posted any knee jerk > opinions about any other poster wrt their stance on init systems +1 I may not agree with Canek on all things: - I do dislike systemd, especially on Centos where disabling services doesn't always work past a reboot - Users who can't write code also have a right to be heard and their wishes should still be honestly considered But the conversations have always been civil. And information from him has always been helpful. He is one of the few people on this list whose comments I read and who I do miss when there isn't something for a while. > If we look at the reverse we see a very different picture, and it's > right here in this very thread. To the poster who rudely commented about > Canek being a professor and that doesn't make him right and that he is > one voice, step back pal and take a very long hard look at what you > said. Yes, it doesn't make him right. Also doesn't make him wrong. His > posts and the content are what make him right or wrong. There truly are > fan bois on this list, but Canek is not one of them. It's the > systemd-haters and Poeterring-haters who are being fan bois, painting > all detractors with the same brush. Canek bases his "being a fan of systemd" on what he needs and wants from a computer. For him, systemd fits that requirement perfectly. > Frankly, I'm amazed Canek is still here considering the amount of abuse > he takes from this list. He must have thick skin or maybe dealing with > detractors is a crucial part of academic training. I myself would have > rage quitted a long time ago but he is still here. > > A good healthy dose of manners like your Mama taught you is in short > supply around here right now. +1 (again)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On 2017-12-13 20:37, Alan Mackenzie wrote: What have I done to deserve this abusive style of repartee? I have never You did post your opinion which doesn't fit with others. I use Gentoo, partly because here I have a deal of choice. Isn't it better to say you have partly a choice? ;-) -- Sent with eQmail-1.10
[gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On 2017-12-13 12:52, Walter Dnes wrote: > My big hate is the ever-growing dependancy list of gtk. Which is one of the big reasons why I masked gtk3. Sadly I don't know how much longer I can keep that, as at least one favorite program of mine now requires it. -- Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet, if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup. To reply privately _only_ on Usenet, fetch the TXT record for the domain.
Re: [gentoo-user] Why are these files restricted?
On 12/10/2017 08:10 PM, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > $ for f in /etc/at/at.deny /etc/cron.hourly/0anacron > /etc/default/useradd ; do > ls -l $f ; qfile $f ; > done > -rw-r- 1 root at 166 Dec 10 16:57 /etc/at/at.deny > sys-process/at (/etc/at/at.deny) > -rwxr-x--- 1 root root 392 Nov 4 21:04 /etc/cron.hourly/0anacron > sys-process/cronie (/etc/cron.hourly/0anacron) > -rw--- 1 root root 96 Aug 14 10:57 /etc/default/useradd > sys-apps/shadow (/etc/default/useradd) > > None of these seem sensitive to me, and restricting them like this looks > like a case of SBO. I realized that you meant "security by obscurity" after a while, but the first google result is "small bowel obstruction" =P It's probably just the principle of least privilege in play. If no one other than root needs to read those files, then no one other than root should be able to read those files. The at.deny and default/useradd files might be overkill, but I would still rather be safe than sorry. But for anacron: people are stupid enough to put passwords in there.
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] application to configure mouse
On 17-12-14 at 00:45, Simon Thelen wrote: > On 17-12-13 at 15:47, R0b0t1 wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 11:10 AM, wabe wrote: > > > p...@xvalheru.org wrote: > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> Sorry for this offtopic, but is there a UI standalone application to > > >> configure mouse? I'm using fluxbox and don't want to install gnome or > > >> kde. > > > You didn't say what parameters you want to configure. For speed, > > > acceleration and threshold you can use xset. But be warned, it has no > > > GUI. > > The problem with xset is that removing the device and restarting will > > remove the commands. It is good to have a settings daemon, but I don't > > know of one. > You can take every option settable through xset and set it in > /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d . That will then make sure the options are set > every time X starts. You can also take the xset command and write it > into ~/.xinitrc if you don't have root. Just a note here, if you put the command in your .xinitrc removing and re-adding the device will probably reset the settings, but the xorg.conf.d approach should be permanent (works for me without issues). -- Simon Thelen
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] application to configure mouse
On 17-12-13 at 15:47, R0b0t1 wrote: > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 11:10 AM, wabe wrote: > > p...@xvalheru.org wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Sorry for this offtopic, but is there a UI standalone application to > >> configure mouse? I'm using fluxbox and don't want to install gnome or > >> kde. > > You didn't say what parameters you want to configure. For speed, > > acceleration and threshold you can use xset. But be warned, it has no > > GUI. > The problem with xset is that removing the device and restarting will > remove the commands. It is good to have a settings daemon, but I don't > know of one. You can take every option settable through xset and set it in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d . That will then make sure the options are set every time X starts. You can also take the xset command and write it into ~/.xinitrc if you don't have root. I have a 05-mouse.conf containing: Section "InputClass" Identifier "Kingsis Peripherals ZOWIE Gaming mouse" MatchIsPointer "on" Option "AccelerationProfile" "-1" EndSection You can look for the xorg.conf variable names you need in xorg.conf(5), or just google it. -- Simon Thelen
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] application to configure mouse
On Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:47:05 -0600, R0b0t1 wrote: > >> Sorry for this offtopic, but is there a UI standalone application to > >> configure mouse? I'm using fluxbox and don't want to install gnome or > >> kde. > > > > You didn't say what parameters you want to configure. For speed, > > acceleration and threshold you can use xset. But be warned, it has no > > GUI. > > > > The problem with xset is that removing the device and restarting will > remove the commands. It is good to have a settings daemon, but I don't > know of one. You could run xset from a udev ADD rule. -- Neil Bothwick FINE: Tax for doing wrong. Tax: fine for doing fine. pgpPEXwIGkai6.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On 13/12/17 15:17, Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Wed, 13 Dec 2017 14:01:38 +, Wols Lists wrote: > >>> Can't you change this with fstab settings. I see a similar behaviour >>> when trying t mount NFS shares that aren't there, but it gives up >>> trying after 90s and gets on with booting the computer. >> >> I've tried ... >> >> Systemd and mounting anything other than local linux hard drives gives >> me a migraine ... >> >> Yes I *should* be able to tell it to just forget about drives it can't >> mount while booting. Yes I *should* be able to tell it to just forget >> about drives it can't access while shutting down. Yes I *should* be able >> to tell it to do what I want, but it seems that no matter what I tell >> it, it randomly refuses to boot or shut down because of a hiccup with a >> Windows or network mount :-( > > Have you tried adding x-systemd.mount-timeout= and/or nofail to the > options in fstab? See man systemd.mount. > > Quite likely. And ditched thanks to the guaranteed hang on shutdown as a result, I think. Every "fix" causes a different problem elsewhere, ime :-( Cheers, Wol
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] application to configure mouse
On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 11:10 AM, wabe wrote: > p...@xvalheru.org wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Sorry for this offtopic, but is there a UI standalone application to >> configure mouse? I'm using fluxbox and don't want to install gnome or >> kde. > > You didn't say what parameters you want to configure. For speed, > acceleration and threshold you can use xset. But be warned, it has no > GUI. > The problem with xset is that removing the device and restarting will remove the commands. It is good to have a settings daemon, but I don't know of one. R0b0t1.
[gentoo-user] Re: xcdroast 0.98alpha16: Empty CD
Helmut Jarausch: >On 12/13/2017 07:36:54 PM, Hartmut Figge wrote: >I have app-cdr/cdrtools 3.02_alpha07-r1 installed here. At the moment 3.02_alpha06, but I've tested the unstable version of cdrtools also. >Did you go to 'Setup' / 'Device-Scan' / 'Rescan devices' > >Is your device listed there? Yes to both. It seems that readtoc wishes to write to 'fd 0' instead to '-'. Perhaps I should mention also that there is no desktop environment on my machine. Only icewm. Hartmut
Re: [gentoo-user] xcdroast 0.98alpha16: Empty CD
On 12/13/2017 07:36:54 PM, Hartmut Figge wrote: Greetings, on my current machine xcdroast fails to recognize an inserted CD in the CD-reader. I do not often burn CDs and had switched to cdw which works fine. Nevertheless, xcdroast was once my favorite and I am curious. :) I have app-cdr/cdrtools 3.02_alpha07-r1 installed here. Did you go to 'Setup' / 'Device-Scan' / 'Rescan devices' Is your device listed there?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
Hello, Marc. On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 12:34:03 +0100, Marc Joliet wrote: > Am Sonntag, 10. Dezember 2017, 11:13:30 CET schrieb Alan Mackenzie: > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 09:55:45 +, Wols Lists wrote: [ ] > > > Granted he's not necessarily the most politic of people, and has ruffled > > > a lot of feathers, but I'd much rather a system he's cleaned up, than a > > > system where everything hangs together on a knife-edge. > > His motivation seems to be ego. To force everybody to use his software. > > He did this by, amongst other things, abusing the trust placed in him to > > maintain udev. Early on he abandoned support for udev for everybody but > > users of his new init system, systemd, in an attempt (sadly successful) > > to force "everybody" into using systemd. > Of course, the previous maintainer of udev fully supported whatever changes > were made, so you're painting a false picture of a potential different > history. Previous maintainers have little, if any, influence on the direction taken by their successors. > > I've no idea how good systemd is. It's not been through the normal > > process of choice and selection that other successful packages have. It > > was forced on people. But being forced to have a binary system log, > > being forced (so I have heard) to have an http server running, , > > doesn't make it an attractive package for me. > *All* of this is "so I have heard". What happened to researching stuff as > the > better alternative to speaking out of your ass? What have I done to deserve this abusive style of repartee? I have never doled this out to anybody on this list in the past, and have no intention of doing so in the future. Yes, there are a lot of "so I have heard"s in my posts. Asking people on this list to confirm or refute things is a form of research, and a lot more efficient than many other ones. There are several tens of thousands of packages in Gentoo, and I lack the time personally to investigate each one. Asking people who already use them and post on this list is a normal thing to do. Answering questions about packages one oneself uses is the flip side of that coin. > Speaking for myself, I *switched to* systemd fully on my own, and definitely > do *not* regret it. This is a fair enough thing to say, but it is lacking any technical detail. Most posts on this list praising systemd are similarly lacking in such detail, leaving people like me depending on the vague "so I have heard"s we pick up. > I can't speak for all distros, but all of the ones I know of switched > willingly, because for them (as for me), systemd was the better choice. And it had nothing to do with the withdrawal of support for udev, an essential component of PC GNU/Linux systems, for every init system but systemd, did it? Or is that what you mean by "the better choice"? > You're not against choice, are you ;-) ? Indeed not, which is why I've found the actions of the originator of systemd so regrettable. He attempted to remove the choice of init system. The maintainers of gnome did the same. I regret these actions and more. I use Gentoo, partly because here I have a deal of choice. My choices are not merely technical but also political. GNU/Linux originated for political reasons, laudable ones, including giving end users choice. systemd also originated for political reasons, less laudable, including reducing users' choice. > > > Cheers, > > > Wol > Greetings > -- > Marc Joliet > -- > "People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we > don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
[gentoo-user] xcdroast 0.98alpha16: Empty CD
Greetings, on my current machine xcdroast fails to recognize an inserted CD in the CD-reader. I do not often burn CDs and had switched to cdw which works fine. Nevertheless, xcdroast was once my favorite and I am curious. :) Starting xcdroast with -d 10 shows the problem: DGB1: spawning: /usr/lib/xcdroast-0.98/bin/xcdrwrap CDDA2WAV -D "2,1,0" -J -g -Q -H -v toc,summary,sectors,titles DGB10: readtoc: cdda2wav: Invalid argument. Cannot open output fd 0. On one partition I have an old Gentoo, last used 2011, also with xcdroast 0.98alpha16. That one recognizes an inserted CD. Chrooting into it and running xdroast with -d 10 gives this: DGB1: spawning: /usr/lib/xcdroast-0.98/bin/xcdrwrap CDDA2WAV -D "2,1,0" -J -g -Q -H -v toc,summary,sectors,titles DGB10: readtoc: Type: ROM, Vendor 'HL-DT-ST' Model 'DVDROM DH18NS40 ' Revision '1.01' MMC+CDDA [...] Running the cdda2wav command in the console doesn't help. Current machine: i5-64 ~ # cdda2wav -D "2,1,0" -J -g -Q -H -v toc,summary,sectors,titles Type: ROM, Vendor 'HL-DT-ST' Model 'DVDROM DH18NS40 ' Revision '1.01' MMC+CDDA 569344 bytes buffer memory requested, transfer size 131072 bytes, 4 buffers, 55 sectors cdda2wav: Read Full TOC MMC failed (probably not supported). #Cdda2wav version 3.02a06_linux_4.12.12-gentoo-2_x86_64_intel-r--core-tm--i5-cpu-760-@-2.80ghz, real time sched., soundcard, libparanoia support Tracks:1 255:57.74 CDINDEX discid: flplyXqMOiodZEDJeDw5Ci6OD_g- CDDB discid: 0x023bfd01 CD-Text: not detected CD-Extra: not detected Album title: '' from '' T01: 0 255:57.74 data uninterrupted copydenied N/A Leadout: 1151849 cdda2wav: This disk has no audio tracks. Old Gentoo: (chroot) i5-64 ~ # cdda2wav -D "2,1,0" -J -g -Q -H -v toc,summary,sectors,titles Type: ROM, Vendor 'HL-DT-ST' Model 'DVDROM DH18NS40 ' Revision '1.01' MMC+CDDA 569344 bytes buffer memory requested, transfer size 131072 bytes, 4 buffers, 55 sectors cdda2wav: Read Full TOC MMC failed (probably not supported). #Cdda2wav version 3.00_linux_2.6.32-gentoo-r7-2_i686_intel-r--core-tm-2-duo-cpu-e6750-@-2.66ghz, real time sched., soundcard, libparanoia support Tracks:1 255:57.74 CDINDEX discid: flplyXqMOiodZEDJeDw5Ci6OD_g- CDDB discid: 0x023bfd01 CD-Text: not detected CD-Extra: not detected Album title: '' from '' T01: 0 255:57.74 data uninterrupted copydenied N/A Leadout: 1151849 cdda2wav: This disk has no audio tracks. Versions of cdda2wav and kernel are different, but in both cases the output goes to the console. So the question is, where does this 'open output fd 0' come from and what to do about it? Hartmut
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 10:34:27AM +, Neil Bothwick wrote > I have three gnome packages installed on this KDE box. One is the > tiny package that started this thread, and is GNOME only in name, > the other two are dependencies of XFCE, which I also have installed. > > I see no GNOME takeover, beyond the fact that many distros are > choosing GNOME as their default desktop. My big hate is the ever-growing dependancy list of gtk. Yes I know that it's *NOT* supposed to mean "Gnome Tool Kit", but it seems to be just that. I run ICEWM window manager, but also use gnumeric and abiword which require gtk+. Over the past few years I've seen various new hard-coded dependancies crop up when doing... emerge -pv --changed-use --deep --update @world adwaita-icon-theme, gtk-engines-adwaita, atk, dbus, harfbuzz, introspection, libepoxy, etc, etc, etc. How long before pulseaudio and systemd show up as hard-coded dependancies? I'm old enough to remember a time when people switched to linux because it ran fast on older machines that couldn't run the latest Windows. -- Walter Dnes I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] application to configure mouse
p...@xvalheru.org wrote: > Hi, > > Sorry for this offtopic, but is there a UI standalone application to > configure mouse? I'm using fluxbox and don't want to install gnome or > kde. You didn't say what parameters you want to configure. For speed, acceleration and threshold you can use xset. But be warned, it has no GUI. -- Regards wabe
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On Wed, 13 Dec 2017 14:01:38 +, Wols Lists wrote: > > Can't you change this with fstab settings. I see a similar behaviour > > when trying t mount NFS shares that aren't there, but it gives up > > trying after 90s and gets on with booting the computer. > > I've tried ... > > Systemd and mounting anything other than local linux hard drives gives > me a migraine ... > > Yes I *should* be able to tell it to just forget about drives it can't > mount while booting. Yes I *should* be able to tell it to just forget > about drives it can't access while shutting down. Yes I *should* be able > to tell it to do what I want, but it seems that no matter what I tell > it, it randomly refuses to boot or shut down because of a hiccup with a > Windows or network mount :-( Have you tried adding x-systemd.mount-timeout= and/or nofail to the options in fstab? See man systemd.mount. -- Neil Bothwick If Microsoft made cars: "The airbag system would ask "are you sure?" before deploying." pgp28KTvh39S1.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Profile 17.0 change and app-cdr/cdrdao-1.2.3-r4
Hello, On Sat, 02 Dec 2017, Mike Gilbert wrote: >On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Mick wrote: >> app-cdr/cdrdao-1.2.3-r4 also fails to install: [..] >> x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-g++ -march=native -O2 -pipe -std=c++11 -pthread -Wl,-O1 >> -Wl,--as-needed -o toc2cddb toc2cddb.o ../trackdb/libtrackdb.a -lmad -lm - >> lvorbisfile -lao -pthread >> x86_64-pc-linux-gnu-g++ -march=native -O2 -pipe -std=c++11 -pthread -Wl,-O1 >> -Wl,--as-needed -o toc2mp3 toc2mp3-toc2mp3.o ../trackdb/libtrackdb.a - >> lmp3lame -lmad -lm -lvorbisfile -lao -pthread >> [19/1535] >> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.4.0/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: >> toc2mp3-toc2mp3.o: warning: relocation against `bitrate_table' in readonly >> section `.text.startup' >> toc2mp3-toc2mp3.o: In function `init_encoder(int)': >> toc2mp3.cc:(.text+0x2c2): undefined reference to `bitrate_table' [..] >> Is there a solution for this? > >There is a patch attached to this bug report. > >https://bugs.gentoo.org/635014 Works nicely. -dnh -- Keep me informed on the behaviour of this kernel.. As the "BugFree(tm)" series didn't turn out too well, I'm starting a new series called the "ItWorksForMe(tm)" series, of which this new kernel is yet another shining example.-- Linus, in the announcement for 1.3.29
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
I use autofs and very happy. I do not need udisks at all, while it is mandatory dependency of solid. I remember old discussion in which kde developer did not understand the concept of optional for this slot.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
Marc Joliet wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2017, 12:04:03 CET schrieb Neil Bothwick: >> On Wed, 13 Dec 2017 10:06:29 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: >>> Some historical correctnesses about Canek: >>> >>> - He has been here for years >>> - He has contributed here for years >>> - He supports systemd and has offered more help and explanation about >>> systemd to it's users on this list than any other single person, bar >>> none >>> - He has never, not once, slagged off SysV Init, OpenRC or any other >>> init system, ot the creators or the users >>> - He has never posted rude or inflamatory comments about anyone arguing >>> against him >>> - He has never resorted to ad-hominem and never posted any knee jerk >>> opinions about any other poster wrt their stance on init systems >>> >>> If we look at the reverse we see a very different picture, and it's >>> right here in this very thread. To the poster who rudely commented about >>> Canek being a professor and that doesn't make him right and that he is >>> one voice, step back pal and take a very long hard look at what you >>> said. Yes, it doesn't make him right. Also doesn't make him wrong. His >>> posts and the content are what make him right or wrong. There truly are >>> fan bois on this list, but Canek is not one of them. It's the >>> systemd-haters and Poeterring-haters who are being fan bois, painting >>> all detractors with the same brush. >> +1 >> >> It was Canek's rational explanations about systemd that made me >> interested enough to try it, and I'm glad I did. He made good technical >> arguments in favour of it whereas most of the arguments against it are >> either based on Lennartphobia or false fact gained from other systemd >> haters. > +1 to both Alan and Neil. > >> I also see the position as somewhat different with Gentoo, because openrc >> is so much better than the other "traditional" systems out there, in fact >> it shares some of the benefits of systemd. As a result, I run a mixture >> of both systems. I prefer systemd now, but not enough to go through the >> hassle of switching over an already working system. That wouldn't be the >> case if those other systems weren't running openrc. > That echoes my own sentiment pretty well. OpenRC is one reason I stayed with > Gentoo, because it seemed better to me than the way other distros did things > (well, better than Suse, at least, which was the other distro I tried way > back > then). > > However, now I default to systemd, because for me it's even better than > OpenRC. Plus, I don't have so many systems that I couldn't migrate them all > :-) . > And yet Canek is the only person on this mailing list to EVER get on my blacklist for his posts. That was years ago. To this day, I don't get any of his messages or read anything quoted from him. Even the troll who had his own script, kept griping about Gentoo and its update process and refused to listen to anyone didn't make it to the blacklist level. Eventually, some comrel member or something booted them off the list. I have to say, -1 for me. He managed to join a extremely exclusive club with me. He sits on a blacklist that no one else ever managed to get on. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On 13/12/17 00:02, Neil Bothwick wrote: >> and Windows has this infuriating habit of >> > ignoring my command to shutdown, instead suspending to disk. As my >> > Windows partitions automount in linux, this causes the mount to fail, >> > and systemd won't boot the system. So I spend/waste half an hour trying >> > to force Windows to shut down properly! > Can't you change this with fstab settings. I see a similar behaviour when > trying t mount NFS shares that aren't there, but it gives up trying after > 90s and gets on with booting the computer. I've tried ... Systemd and mounting anything other than local linux hard drives gives me a migraine ... Yes I *should* be able to tell it to just forget about drives it can't mount while booting. Yes I *should* be able to tell it to just forget about drives it can't access while shutting down. Yes I *should* be able to tell it to do what I want, but it seems that no matter what I tell it, it randomly refuses to boot or shut down because of a hiccup with a Windows or network mount :-( And worse, every fix for one problem simply causes a different problem! Cheers, Wol
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On Wed, 13 Dec 2017 12:34:03 +0100, Marc Joliet wrote: > > I've no idea how good systemd is. It's not been through the normal > > process of choice and selection that other successful packages have. What process was that? The one where distro maintainers decide what to include in *their* distros? Isn't that how all packages, including systemd, make it into a distro. Debian even had a public debate and vote on it. You seem to be implying that systemd got into those distros by some stealth process, maybe a trojan or even osmosis? > > It was forced on people. Nothing has been forced on anyone because no one is forced to accept the distro maintainers chosen defaults. > > But being forced to have a binary system > > log, being forced (so I have heard) to have an http server > > running, , doesn't make it an attractive package for me. > > *All* of this is "so I have heard". What happened to researching stuff > as the better alternative to speaking out of your ass? The systemd debate is different in that instead of fanboys that ignore the facts, the loudest arguers are a hate club that make up their own "facts". I'm amazed that all those developers at Debian, Red Hat, Arch and other distros ignored all these facts when they are normally so technically astute. Still, what to experienced developers know when compared to mailing list and forum posters... -- Neil Bothwick Sir! Romulan warbird decloaki\xBB\xAE\xF5\xF7\xFC\xC1 NO CARRIER pgpH02Dnk885o.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
Am Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2017, 12:04:03 CET schrieb Neil Bothwick: > On Wed, 13 Dec 2017 10:06:29 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > > Some historical correctnesses about Canek: > > > > - He has been here for years > > - He has contributed here for years > > - He supports systemd and has offered more help and explanation about > > systemd to it's users on this list than any other single person, bar > > none > > - He has never, not once, slagged off SysV Init, OpenRC or any other > > init system, ot the creators or the users > > - He has never posted rude or inflamatory comments about anyone arguing > > against him > > - He has never resorted to ad-hominem and never posted any knee jerk > > opinions about any other poster wrt their stance on init systems > > > > If we look at the reverse we see a very different picture, and it's > > right here in this very thread. To the poster who rudely commented about > > Canek being a professor and that doesn't make him right and that he is > > one voice, step back pal and take a very long hard look at what you > > said. Yes, it doesn't make him right. Also doesn't make him wrong. His > > posts and the content are what make him right or wrong. There truly are > > fan bois on this list, but Canek is not one of them. It's the > > systemd-haters and Poeterring-haters who are being fan bois, painting > > all detractors with the same brush. > > +1 > > It was Canek's rational explanations about systemd that made me > interested enough to try it, and I'm glad I did. He made good technical > arguments in favour of it whereas most of the arguments against it are > either based on Lennartphobia or false fact gained from other systemd > haters. +1 to both Alan and Neil. > I also see the position as somewhat different with Gentoo, because openrc > is so much better than the other "traditional" systems out there, in fact > it shares some of the benefits of systemd. As a result, I run a mixture > of both systems. I prefer systemd now, but not enough to go through the > hassle of switching over an already working system. That wouldn't be the > case if those other systems weren't running openrc. That echoes my own sentiment pretty well. OpenRC is one reason I stayed with Gentoo, because it seemed better to me than the way other distros did things (well, better than Suse, at least, which was the other distro I tried way back then). However, now I default to systemd, because for me it's even better than OpenRC. Plus, I don't have so many systems that I couldn't migrate them all :-) . -- Marc Joliet -- "People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
Am Sonntag, 10. Dezember 2017, 11:13:30 CET schrieb Alan Mackenzie: > Hello, Wols > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 09:55:45 +, Wols Lists wrote: [...] > > Lennart doesn't want a system where a small failure in one place > > cascades and brings down a load of stuff elsewhere. > > Neither do I, and neither does anybody. GNU/Linux is not like that, and > never has been. Except where it has, of course. (Seriously, you can't completely avoid breakage when different, independent groups are responsible for different components of a complex, intertwined system.) > It has traditionally been a massive pain to set up, > though, something which has improved dramatically over the last ten or > twenty years. I agree with this, though. > > Granted he's not necessarily the most politic of people, and has ruffled > > a lot of feathers, but I'd much rather a system he's cleaned up, than a > > system where everything hangs together on a knife-edge. > > His motivation seems to be ego. To force everybody to use his software. > He did this by, amongst other things, abusing the trust placed in him to > maintain udev. Early on he abandoned support for udev for everybody but > users of his new init system, systemd, in an attempt (sadly successful) > to force "everybody" into using systemd. Of course, the previous maintainer of udev fully supported whatever changes were made, so you're painting a false picture of a potential different history. > I've no idea how good systemd is. It's not been through the normal > process of choice and selection that other successful packages have. It > was forced on people. But being forced to have a binary system log, > being forced (so I have heard) to have an http server running, , > doesn't make it an attractive package for me. *All* of this is "so I have heard". What happened to researching stuff as the better alternative to speaking out of your ass? Speaking for myself, I *switched to* systemd fully on my own, and definitely do *not* regret it. I can't speak for all distros, but all of the ones I know of switched willingly, because for them (as for me), systemd was the better choice. You're not against choice, are you ;-) ? > > Cheers, > > Wol Greetings -- Marc Joliet -- "People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On Wed, 13 Dec 2017 10:06:29 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote: > Some historical correctnesses about Canek: > > - He has been here for years > - He has contributed here for years > - He supports systemd and has offered more help and explanation about > systemd to it's users on this list than any other single person, bar > none > - He has never, not once, slagged off SysV Init, OpenRC or any other > init system, ot the creators or the users > - He has never posted rude or inflamatory comments about anyone arguing > against him > - He has never resorted to ad-hominem and never posted any knee jerk > opinions about any other poster wrt their stance on init systems > > If we look at the reverse we see a very different picture, and it's > right here in this very thread. To the poster who rudely commented about > Canek being a professor and that doesn't make him right and that he is > one voice, step back pal and take a very long hard look at what you > said. Yes, it doesn't make him right. Also doesn't make him wrong. His > posts and the content are what make him right or wrong. There truly are > fan bois on this list, but Canek is not one of them. It's the > systemd-haters and Poeterring-haters who are being fan bois, painting > all detractors with the same brush. +1 It was Canek's rational explanations about systemd that made me interested enough to try it, and I'm glad I did. He made good technical arguments in favour of it whereas most of the arguments against it are either based on Lennartphobia or false fact gained from other systemd haters. I also see the position as somewhat different with Gentoo, because openrc is so much better than the other "traditional" systems out there, in fact it shares some of the benefits of systemd. As a result, I run a mixture of both systems. I prefer systemd now, but not enough to go through the hassle of switching over an already working system. That wouldn't be the case if those other systems weren't running openrc. -- Neil Bothwick Irritable? Who the bloody hell are you calling irritable? pgpmncp3gpzpt.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] preparing for profile switch -- major problem
Am Sonntag, 10. Dezember 2017, 13:36:19 CET schrieb Kent Fredric: > as a sort > of bodge to compensate for the fact portage has no working "provides" > feature I'd just like to point out that, to the best of my knowledge, portage actually switched *from* a "provides" model *to* the virtual system we use today. (This was more than a decade ago, before I started using Gentoo. I remember this because I vaguely recall seeing repoman and/or portage warnings about deprecated use of PROVIDES or some such in overlay ebuilds.) -- Marc Joliet -- "People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On Wed, 13 Dec 2017 01:11:23 +, Peter Humphrey wrote: > On Tuesday, 12 December 2017 10:34:27 GMT Neil Bothwick wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Dec 2017 23:24:48 +, Peter Humphrey wrote: > > > > I more and more get the feeling that linux is standardising on the > > > > Gnome desktop, which I really just DO NOT get on with. > > > > > > Nor I. it's second only to M$ in its arrogance. > > > > I have three gnome packages installed on this KDE box. One is the tiny > > package that started this thread, and is GNOME only in name, the other > > two are dependencies of XFCE, which I also have installed. > > > > I see no GNOME takeover, beyond the fact that many distros are > > choosing GNOME as their default desktop. > > I didn't suggest it's taking over the world, just that it deliberately > hides all useful configuration data from the user, just to save the > devs from having to explain themselves.We know what you need better > than you do, so just be a good boy and take your medicine. > > Just like M$. > There I agree with you. With dconf they've even got a registry. -- Neil Bothwick OK Scotty, NOW! Detonate and energize! I mean... pgp7eFN3tXjlQ.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-user] [OT] application to configure mouse
Hi, Sorry for this offtopic, but is there a UI standalone application to configure mouse? I'm using fluxbox and don't want to install gnome or kde. Thanks Pat Freehosting PIPNI - http://www.pipni.cz/
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Is gnome becoming obligatory?
On 13/12/2017 01:23, allan gottlieb wrote: > On Mon, Dec 11 2017, Jorge Almeida wrote: > >> On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés >> wrote: >>> >>> Just my two cents. I will not answer any reply to my little contribution to >>> this thread; >> >> Good. I can't remember any intervention from you that I would miss. > > That makes one of us. > > As a gnome user I needed to use systemd when gnome-3 came about. While > I have nothing useful to say pro or con about systemd, I strongly > believe Canek has contributed a number of helpful comments to this > group. Yes, this. Some historical correctnesses about Canek: - He has been here for years - He has contributed here for years - He supports systemd and has offered more help and explanation about systemd to it's users on this list than any other single person, bar none - He has never, not once, slagged off SysV Init, OpenRC or any other init system, ot the creators or the users - He has never posted rude or inflamatory comments about anyone arguing against him - He has never resorted to ad-hominem and never posted any knee jerk opinions about any other poster wrt their stance on init systems If we look at the reverse we see a very different picture, and it's right here in this very thread. To the poster who rudely commented about Canek being a professor and that doesn't make him right and that he is one voice, step back pal and take a very long hard look at what you said. Yes, it doesn't make him right. Also doesn't make him wrong. His posts and the content are what make him right or wrong. There truly are fan bois on this list, but Canek is not one of them. It's the systemd-haters and Poeterring-haters who are being fan bois, painting all detractors with the same brush. Frankly, I'm amazed Canek is still here considering the amount of abuse he takes from this list. He must have thick skin or maybe dealing with detractors is a crucial part of academic training. I myself would have rage quitted a long time ago but he is still here. A good healthy dose of manners like your Mama taught you is in short supply around here right now. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
