Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
On 9/2/2011, at 2:27pm, Mark Knecht wrote: > ... > Following Walt's recent thread about his experiences using grub2 I > think getting folks used to disk labels at installation time, be they > names or even better UUID's, might fit in very well with installation > instructions that cover using grub2 instead of grub as a boot loader. IMO this is what makes the problem a little less tractable. Labels in /etc/fstab are nice, and they may ensure your disks are mounted correctly if the ordering changes. But the ordering might lead GRUB to be looking on the wrong disk for the kernel, and in that case labels in /etc/fstab alone don't help. AIUI GRUB2 isn't yet marked stable. I think I read that GRUB2 is 150MB or so, and contains support for jpegs and whatnot - that's not really what I want in a bootloader. At present use of /dev/sda1 &c in the handbook is very consistent. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 06:45:53 -0600, Dale wrote: Kewl !! That works. Wonder if I should try this way out. See if I can mess this up. o_O Why would you want to swap a concise, readable fstab for one that needs to be filled with comments to make any sense at all? That's true but I may learn something. Then again, it may not work either. I'm going to think on this some more. Besides, I got a couple weeks uptime on my new rig. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 06:45:53 -0600, Dale wrote: > Kewl !! That works. Wonder if I should try this way out. See if I > can mess this up. o_O Why would you want to swap a concise, readable fstab for one that needs to be filled with comments to make any sense at all? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
On Thursday 10 February 2011 06:45:53 Dale wrote: > Joost Roeleveld wrote: > > On Thursday 10 February 2011 06:31:12 Dale wrote: > >> Neil Bothwick wrote: > >>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:00:24 +0200, Petri Rosenström wrote: > If you use vi(m) you don't have to type too much neither. Just use > > :r!blkid /dev/sda in vi(m) and you have the UUID, with some > :additional > > information, but the rest is just vi(m) magic. > >>> > >>> None of which makes fstab any more readable. UUIDs are the worst > >>> option > >>> in this respect, although they do allow disks to be moved around. > >>> Filesystem labels are the best option for readability and not only > >>> do > >>> they allow disks to be moved but also individual filesystems. > >> > >> When I switched mine, I looked into the UUID option but never could > >> figure out how to tell which is what. I have /boot, /, /home, > >> /portage > >> and /var but how do you get it to tell you the number for say /home? > >> Of > >> all the stuff I read, I never did find that. > >> > >> I agree tho, using the plain labels are easier to understand. Even I > >> got that right. ;-) > >> > >> Dale > >> > >> :-) :-) > > > > Dale, > > > > Thanks to the email from Petri Rosenström earlier, I finally figured it > > out. If you know the current /dev/ for it, use: > > blkid /dev/ > > That will give you the UUID :) > > > > -- > > Joost > > Kewl !! That works. Wonder if I should try this way out. See if I can > mess this up. o_O > > Dale > > :-) :-) In your case, yes and yes :) Just make sure you got a backup so you can go back to the way it works now ;) -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
Joost Roeleveld wrote: On Thursday 10 February 2011 06:31:12 Dale wrote: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:00:24 +0200, Petri Rosenström wrote: If you use vi(m) you don't have to type too much neither. Just use :r!blkid /dev/sda in vi(m) and you have the UUID, with some :additional information, but the rest is just vi(m) magic. None of which makes fstab any more readable. UUIDs are the worst option in this respect, although they do allow disks to be moved around. Filesystem labels are the best option for readability and not only do they allow disks to be moved but also individual filesystems. When I switched mine, I looked into the UUID option but never could figure out how to tell which is what. I have /boot, /, /home, /portage and /var but how do you get it to tell you the number for say /home? Of all the stuff I read, I never did find that. I agree tho, using the plain labels are easier to understand. Even I got that right. ;-) Dale :-) :-) Dale, Thanks to the email from Petri Rosenström earlier, I finally figured it out. If you know the current /dev/ for it, use: blkid /dev/ That will give you the UUID :) -- Joost Kewl !! That works. Wonder if I should try this way out. See if I can mess this up. o_O Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
On Thursday 10 February 2011 06:31:12 Dale wrote: > Neil Bothwick wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:00:24 +0200, Petri Rosenström wrote: > >> If you use vi(m) you don't have to type too much neither. Just use > >> > >> :r!blkid /dev/sda in vi(m) and you have the UUID, with some > >> :additional > >> > >> information, but the rest is just vi(m) magic. > > > > None of which makes fstab any more readable. UUIDs are the worst option > > in this respect, although they do allow disks to be moved around. > > Filesystem labels are the best option for readability and not only do > > they allow disks to be moved but also individual filesystems. > > When I switched mine, I looked into the UUID option but never could > figure out how to tell which is what. I have /boot, /, /home, /portage > and /var but how do you get it to tell you the number for say /home? Of > all the stuff I read, I never did find that. > > I agree tho, using the plain labels are easier to understand. Even I > got that right. ;-) > > Dale > > :-) :-) Dale, Thanks to the email from Petri Rosenström earlier, I finally figured it out. If you know the current /dev/ for it, use: blkid /dev/ That will give you the UUID :) -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:00:24 +0200, Petri Rosenström wrote: If you use vi(m) you don't have to type too much neither. Just use :r!blkid /dev/sda in vi(m) and you have the UUID, with some additional information, but the rest is just vi(m) magic. None of which makes fstab any more readable. UUIDs are the worst option in this respect, although they do allow disks to be moved around. Filesystem labels are the best option for readability and not only do they allow disks to be moved but also individual filesystems. When I switched mine, I looked into the UUID option but never could figure out how to tell which is what. I have /boot, /, /home, /portage and /var but how do you get it to tell you the number for say /home? Of all the stuff I read, I never did find that. I agree tho, using the plain labels are easier to understand. Even I got that right. ;-) Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: > Apparently, though unproven, at 16:27 on Wednesday 09 February 2011, Mark > Knecht did opine thusly: > >> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 6:16 AM, Dale wrote: >> > James wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> >> >> So looking at the handbook, I was wondering >> >> why it does not describe how to use Disk Labels >> >> during the installation process. Dunno. >> >> >> >> So I poised this question on gentoo-doc >> >> and got this encouraging response from *JOSH* >> >> >> >> snip >> >> >> >> >> >> James >> > >> > Given that some folks on here have ran into USB drives changing the order >> > of partitions, I think this is a good idea. If needed, they could at >> > least introduce the subject then have it link to another page. Even if >> > it is the simplest label of using boot, root and such labels and maybe a >> > mention that there are other ways to accomplish the same thing. >> > >> > I ran into this issue a while back when I added a hard drive and it was >> > not easy to work with. When I boot a CD/DVD, it sees them as hd* >> > instead of sd* so that didn't help since the OS kernel sees them as sd*. >> > >> > It may be uphill to get this included or at least linked to something >> > else explaining it but I think it is a good idea. I also added myself >> > to the bug as well. I saw the post on -doc. >> > >> > Dale >> >> Following Walt's recent thread about his experiences using grub2 I >> think getting folks used to disk labels at installation time, be they >> names or even better UUID's, might fit in very well with installation >> instructions that cover using grub2 instead of grub as a boot loader. > > From a practical perspective, fs labels are easier than GUIDs, so I would > recommend labels. Users can invent their own descriptive labels at install > time and enter that into fstab. > > "LABEL=SERVER1-ROOT" is not much more effort than "/dev/sda3" > > GUIDs are another story. They get autogenerated, are invariably displayed on > the screen along with a huge number of other GUIDs (Murphy) and one has to > copy paste the damn things into vi. > > GUIDs are great for ubuntu where an install script does all the heavy lifting, > but Gentoo, being a vastly superior operating system, has made the > devastatingly astounding assumption that users are actually able to think and > type. Whodathunkedit? > > If we expect users to type stuff, we should set it up so they type easy stuff > :-) > > -- > alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com > > Hi, If you use vi(m) you don't have to type too much neither. Just use :r!blkid /dev/sda in vi(m) and you have the UUID, with some additional information, but the rest is just vi(m) magic. Best regards Petri
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
Apparently, though unproven, at 16:27 on Wednesday 09 February 2011, Mark Knecht did opine thusly: > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 6:16 AM, Dale wrote: > > James wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> So looking at the handbook, I was wondering > >> why it does not describe how to use Disk Labels > >> during the installation process. Dunno. > >> > >> So I poised this question on gentoo-doc > >> and got this encouraging response from *JOSH* > >> > >> snip > >> > >> > >> James > > > > Given that some folks on here have ran into USB drives changing the order > > of partitions, I think this is a good idea. If needed, they could at > > least introduce the subject then have it link to another page. Even if > > it is the simplest label of using boot, root and such labels and maybe a > > mention that there are other ways to accomplish the same thing. > > > > I ran into this issue a while back when I added a hard drive and it was > > not easy to work with. When I boot a CD/DVD, it sees them as hd* > > instead of sd* so that didn't help since the OS kernel sees them as sd*. > > > > It may be uphill to get this included or at least linked to something > > else explaining it but I think it is a good idea. I also added myself > > to the bug as well. I saw the post on -doc. > > > > Dale > > Following Walt's recent thread about his experiences using grub2 I > think getting folks used to disk labels at installation time, be they > names or even better UUID's, might fit in very well with installation > instructions that cover using grub2 instead of grub as a boot loader. From a practical perspective, fs labels are easier than GUIDs, so I would recommend labels. Users can invent their own descriptive labels at install time and enter that into fstab. "LABEL=SERVER1-ROOT" is not much more effort than "/dev/sda3" GUIDs are another story. They get autogenerated, are invariably displayed on the screen along with a huge number of other GUIDs (Murphy) and one has to copy paste the damn things into vi. GUIDs are great for ubuntu where an install script does all the heavy lifting, but Gentoo, being a vastly superior operating system, has made the devastatingly astounding assumption that users are actually able to think and type. Whodathunkedit? If we expect users to type stuff, we should set it up so they type easy stuff :-) -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
On Wed, 9 Feb 2011 13:51:46 + (UTC), James wrote: > These aren't needed to get a system up and running. Yeah, Ubuntu uses > them for various ID purposes, but nothing really critical. Unless > there's a clear need for them, for example if some package in the > @system set will use them in a way that our users will see, I doubt > the handbook needs to cover them. Adding labels using udev just seems > very finicky and time-consuming, and doesn't seem like it would be of > much utility when users are already swamped with everything else the > handbook asks them to do. Josh seems to be referring to UUID type disk labels, not filesystem labels. Which are you talking about? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
On 9. 2. 2011 15:16, Dale wrote: So looking at the handbook, I was wondering why it does not describe how to use Disk Labels during the installation process. Dunno. Given that some folks on here have ran into USB drives changing the order of partitions, I think this is a good idea. The same happened to me when I attached one more sata-drive. After that those two which used to be /dev/sda and /dev/sdb suddenly became /dev/sdb and /dev/sdc (and the new one was now /dev/sda). No matter how I tried to switch cables or ports, they kept to be detected as 2nd and 3rd sata-drives. So I agree there should be at least some basic info about disk-labels in the handbook. Jarry -- ___ This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists! Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted.
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 6:16 AM, Dale wrote: > James wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> So looking at the handbook, I was wondering >> why it does not describe how to use Disk Labels >> during the installation process. Dunno. >> >> So I poised this question on gentoo-doc >> and got this encouraging response from *JOSH* >> >> snip >> >> >> James >> >> > > Given that some folks on here have ran into USB drives changing the order of > partitions, I think this is a good idea. If needed, they could at least > introduce the subject then have it link to another page. Even if it is the > simplest label of using boot, root and such labels and maybe a mention that > there are other ways to accomplish the same thing. > > I ran into this issue a while back when I added a hard drive and it was not > easy to work with. When I boot a CD/DVD, it sees them as hd* instead of sd* > so that didn't help since the OS kernel sees them as sd*. > > It may be uphill to get this included or at least linked to something else > explaining it but I think it is a good idea. I also added myself to the bug > as well. I saw the post on -doc. > > Dale > Following Walt's recent thread about his experiences using grub2 I think getting folks used to disk labels at installation time, be they names or even better UUID's, might fit in very well with installation instructions that cover using grub2 instead of grub as a boot loader. - Mark
Re: [gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
James wrote: Hello, So looking at the handbook, I was wondering why it does not describe how to use Disk Labels during the installation process. Dunno. So I poised this question on gentoo-doc and got this encouraging response from *JOSH* snip James Given that some folks on here have ran into USB drives changing the order of partitions, I think this is a good idea. If needed, they could at least introduce the subject then have it link to another page. Even if it is the simplest label of using boot, root and such labels and maybe a mention that there are other ways to accomplish the same thing. I ran into this issue a while back when I added a hard drive and it was not easy to work with. When I boot a CD/DVD, it sees them as hd* instead of sd* so that didn't help since the OS kernel sees them as sd*. It may be uphill to get this included or at least linked to something else explaining it but I think it is a good idea. I also added myself to the bug as well. I saw the post on -doc. Dale :-) :-)
[gentoo-user] Disk Labels in Handbook
Hello, So looking at the handbook, I was wondering why it does not describe how to use Disk Labels during the installation process. Dunno. So I poised this question on gentoo-doc and got this encouraging response from *JOSH* snip Some discussion on modifying the Gentoo Handbook to describe how to use Disk Labels is warranted? Many have switched to disk labels in fstab. Maybe the Gentoo handbook should include a section on disk label usage to prepare for the future? and Josh replied: These aren't needed to get a system up and running. Yeah, Ubuntu uses them for various ID purposes, but nothing really critical. Unless there's a clear need for them, for example if some package in the @system set will use them in a way that our users will see, I doubt the handbook needs to cover them. Adding labels using udev just seems very finicky and time-consuming, and doesn't seem like it would be of much utility when users are already swamped with everything else the handbook asks them to do. If someone's willing to provide the text, then sure, I'll consider adding it to the handbooks, but if not, then I won't spend any energy trying to write something up. Things like GPT for hard disks are far more important, now that the large-size disks are shipping with it rather than the old MSDOS partition arrangement.. So, I opened up a bug on disk labels and the handbook, hoping that knowledgable users I will post to this bug # 354229. James
