Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
Peter Humphrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's another euphemism progress, like water-closet lavatory bathroom rest-room etc. (I've probably missed some links in that chain). Someone dislikes an aspect of the original word - fault in this case - and euphemises it to problem, then that becomes tainted with the original association and it gets downgraded again to issue. Anyone want to speculate what will come next? It already has. I have heard bugs and unexpected behaviour referred to as 'features'. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On Tuesday 04 March 2008 10:19:39 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:29:01 +, Mick wrote: Depending on the particular discipline context issue can also mean a risk that has now been realised/manifested; the familiar oh sh*t! moment, e.g. when you realised that rm -Rf / was not what you meant to have entered . . . before that moment you had a risk, afterwards an issue. No, you have a problem, or, as the motivators like to put it, an opportunity! I'm with stroller on this, the real meaning of issue has been subverted by spin doctors so they can say problem without using the word problem. I agree. It's another euphemism progress, like water-closet lavatory bathroom rest-room etc. (I've probably missed some links in that chain). Someone dislikes an aspect of the original word - fault in this case - and euphemises it to problem, then that becomes tainted with the original association and it gets downgraded again to issue. Anyone want to speculate what will come next? I'm all for people saying what they mean - someone referred to spades earlier, I think. Impressions of favourability should come a distant second to accuracy. -- Rgds Peter -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 11:51 +, Graham Murray wrote: Peter Humphrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It's another euphemism progress, like water-closet lavatory bathroom rest-room etc. (I've probably missed some links in that chain). Someone dislikes an aspect of the original word - fault in this case - and euphemises it to problem, then that becomes tainted with the original association and it gets downgraded again to issue. Anyone want to speculate what will come next? It already has. I have heard bugs and unexpected behaviour referred to as 'features'. that's been a long standing joke it's not a bug, it's a feature. We use it all the time (but not to customers). What really comes next is: Ticket. That's right, you no longer have a bug, problem, or issue. You just have a ticket number. Your email has automatically been assigned the ticket number 12345... -- Iain Buchanan iaindb at netspace dot net dot au If I love you, what business is it of yours? -- Johann van Goethe -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On Monday 03 March 2008, Uwe Thiem wrote: On Monday 03 March 2008, Stroller wrote: On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote: NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly: On Mon, 03. Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] spammed my inbox with todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico all technical support requests (relations?) all technical support-related issues Ok, not that it changes much... :-) N! It changes EVERYTHING!! Issue is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for problem. You are argueing about the English translation of a Spanish word, done by someone that most probably isn't a certified translator. The word at issue (please excuse the pun) isn't issues but the Spanish word temas - and I doubt it can be described as a weasel-word in this context. Depending on the particular discipline context issue can also mean a risk that has now been realised/manifested; the familiar oh sh*t! moment, e.g. when you realised that rm -Rf / was not what you meant to have entered . . . before that moment you had a risk, afterwards an issue. For the avoidance of doubt I suggest that we check what ISO 9001 defines the term issue as. ;-) -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 08:29:01 +, Mick wrote: Depending on the particular discipline context issue can also mean a risk that has now been realised/manifested; the familiar oh sh*t! moment, e.g. when you realised that rm -Rf / was not what you meant to have entered . . . before that moment you had a risk, afterwards an issue. No, you have a problem, or, as the motivators like to put it, an opportunity! I'm with stroller on this, the real meaning of issue has been subverted by spin doctors so they can say problem without using the word problem. -- Neil Bothwick NOTICE: -- THE ELEVATORS WILL BE OUT OF ORDER TODAY -- (The nearest working elevators are in the building across the street.) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly: On Mon, 03. Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] spammed my inbox with Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben ser realizadas al correo electrónico [EMAIL PROTECTED] Due to the new ISO9001 norm being implemented, all technical support requests (relations?) should be taken to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías. Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience Automáticamente este email será reenvio a [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has automatically been resent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The person at the other email adress probably thinks he still gets the mails normally, so he shouldn't do anything... Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHy8W9MmLQdC6jvocRApmIAJ9j6l+u/b63fp46XPSkTZD80drr/gCgoivv hZZmVLiGGaqejBhqvq2g2WQ= =aX+C -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
Jan Seeger wrote: NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly: On Mon, 03. Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] spammed my inbox with Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben ser realizadas al correo electrónico [EMAIL PROTECTED] Due to the new ISO9001 norm being implemented, all technical support requests (relations?) should be taken to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías. Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience Automáticamente este email será reenvio a [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email has automatically been resent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The person at the other email adress probably thinks he still gets the mails normally, so he shouldn't do anything... Regards, Jan Since you can read it, is there any way to stop the messages? Over time this could become a problem. Dale :-) :-) :-) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote: NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly: On Mon, 03. Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] spammed my inbox with todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico all technical support requests (relations?) all technical support-related issues Ok, not that it changes much... :-) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
Just in case anyone else was thinking of doing so, I contacted the two email addresses concerned off list and asked nicely for them to do something :) -- Iain Buchanan iaindb at netspace dot net dot au It was one of those perfect summer days -- the sun was shining, a breeze was blowing, the birds were singing, and the lawn mower was broken ... --- James Dent -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote: NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly: On Mon, 03. Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] spammed my inbox with todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico all technical support requests (relations?) all technical support-related issues Ok, not that it changes much... :-) N! It changes EVERYTHING!! Issue is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for problem. Clearly if your computer isn't booting it's a PROBLEM, not merely an issue, so we can tell that the author of the email is engaged in the sort of environment where weasel-words are employed. I have dealt with such technical support departments in the past - I knew of one at which the management insisted that staff were not allowed to describe a dead PC as a problem because that sounds too downbeat. Such scenarios were to be passed off to the customer as merely an issue (however seriously we're addressing your issue, sir), rather than the disaster it actually was. /pet peeve Stroller.-- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On Monday 3 March 2008, Stroller wrote: On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote: NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly: On Mon, 03. Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] spammed my inbox with todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico all technical support requests (relations?) all technical support-related issues Ok, not that it changes much... :-) N! It changes EVERYTHING!! Issue is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for problem. Ok. Literally, the word tema (pl. temas) would mean subject, theme, topic, matter. The degree of problematic-ness intended by whoever wrote temas can't of course be deduced, but only guessed. In my interpretation, I took todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico as meaning anything related to technical support, so issue seemed an acceptable translation (where issues include problems as well, of course). Also, I've seen many times if you have issues, call 123456-789. In my understanding, no doubt I'll call that technical support number if I have issues, faults or problems (however serious they may be). But english is not my native language, so I could very well be mistaken in my understanding. Clearly if your computer isn't booting it's a PROBLEM, not merely an issue, so we can tell that the author of the email is engaged in the sort of environment where weasel-words are employed. I have dealt with such technical support departments in the past - I knew of one at which the management insisted that staff were not allowed to describe a dead PC as a problem because that sounds too downbeat. Such scenarios were to be passed off to the customer as merely an issue (however seriously we're addressing your issue, sir), rather than the disaster it actually was. /pet peeve Agreed. I know that kind of environment. So, are you saying that issue means nuisance or minor problem rather than real problem, and using the word to mean problem is incorrect? Or you just hate it when they say issue when they really should say disaster (in this case, I totally agree with you)? -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On Monday 03 March 2008, Stroller wrote: On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote: NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly: On Mon, 03. Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] spammed my inbox with todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico all technical support requests (relations?) all technical support-related issues Ok, not that it changes much... :-) N! It changes EVERYTHING!! Issue is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for problem. You are argueing about the English translation of a Spanish word, done by someone that most probably isn't a certified translator. The word at issue (please excuse the pun) isn't issues but the Spanish word temas - and I doubt it can be described as a weasel-word in this context. Uwe -- Informal Linux Group Namibia: http://www.linux.org.na/ SysEx (Pty) Ltd.: http://www.SysEx.com.na/ -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On 3 Mar 2008, at 15:17, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: On Monday 3 March 2008, Stroller wrote: On 3 Mar 2008, at 09:57, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote: On Monday 3 March 2008, Jan Seeger wrote: NOTE: I don't speak spanish. But somehow, I read it thusly: On Mon, 03. Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] spammed my inbox with todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico all technical support requests (relations?) all technical support-related issues Ok, not that it changes much... :-) N! It changes EVERYTHING!! Issue is word to describe an individual periodical in a series of publications, and is a weasel-word when it's used as a synonym for problem. Ok. Literally, the word tema (pl. temas) would mean subject, theme, topic, matter. The degree of problematic-ness intended by whoever wrote temas can't of course be deduced, but only guessed. In my interpretation, I took todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico as meaning anything related to technical support, so issue seemed an acceptable translation (where issues include problems as well, of course). Hi Etaoin, I didn't mean to be picky about your translation, so my apologies for that. And thank you to Uwe for pointing that out - I didn't intend to be taken that way, I just wanted to have a little rant about one of my (least) favourite words. However you can also say in English all matters relating to technical support. Clearly if your computer isn't booting it's a PROBLEM, not merely an issue, so we can tell that the author of the email is engaged in the sort of environment where weasel-words are employed. I have dealt with such technical support departments in the past - I knew of one at which the management insisted that staff were not allowed to describe a dead PC as a problem because that sounds too downbeat. Such scenarios were to be passed off to the customer as merely an issue (however seriously we're addressing your issue, sir), rather than the disaster it actually was. /pet peeve Agreed. I know that kind of environment. So, are you saying that issue means nuisance or minor problem rather than real problem, and using the word to mean problem is incorrect? Or you just hate it when they say issue when they really should say disaster (in this case, I totally agree with you)? Issue kinda doesn't mean any of these things - neither nuisance nor minor problem nor real problem. It's a way of _avoiding_ saying any of these things at all. The dictionary I have on this computer is the New Oxford American one, and it basically says: issue, noun 1 an important topic for debate or discussion : the issue of global warming | money is not an issue This dictionary goes on to observe the he has issues usage, but really this is just the same (fairly recent) euphemism. The best way (IMO) to perceive the word issue is the global warming one or the couple who are going to marriage counselling because they have issues (to talk about). In the former case it's a matter of public debate, in which everyone has a view and in which people are entitled to opposite views; in the latter case there are likewise two ways to see the situation and the solution will be found through discussion and compromise. An issue is a two-way street, in which opinions go both ways. The use of the word issue within technical support is wide, and so you'd never lose marks for using it in a translation as you have; I suppose I must admit that - with the evolution of language - the word has perhaps become a synonym for problem. But this usage is a bit of co-optation - one doesn't like to admit one's software has problems, so one uses the word issue instead. Problem sounds so negative, an issue is just something to be worked through. As I say, my objection to this usage stems from one company whose staff were prohibited from the use of the word problem. But technical support problems are frequently NOT a two-way street, and they're not something for discussion compromise the way your spouse's habits might be. If I've bought software from you and it crashes every time I press print it truly IS a problem, and use of the word issue to describe this is, IMO, weasly. I hope this helps to explain this fairly obscure entomology. I don't pretend to be a definitive source (I'm not a dictionary), and mine is perhaps a bit of a minority opinion. But as a non-native speaker I guess you may be interested in why I said what I did, so hopefully this clarifies. Stroller. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On Monday 3 March 2008, Stroller wrote: I didn't mean to be picky about your translation, so my apologies for that. And thank you to Uwe for pointing that out - I didn't intend to be taken that way, I just wanted to have a little rant about one of my (least) favourite words. No offense at all. Instead, I was genuinely interested in finding out whether I was missing something. Issue kinda doesn't mean any of these things - neither nuisance nor minor problem nor real problem. It's a way of _avoiding_ saying any of these things at all. The dictionary I have on this computer is the New Oxford American one, and it basically says: issue, noun 1 an important topic for debate or discussion : the issue of global warming | money is not an issue This dictionary goes on to observe the he has issues usage, but really this is just the same (fairly recent) euphemism. The best way (IMO) to perceive the word issue is the global warming one or the couple who are going to marriage counselling because they have issues (to talk about). In the former case it's a matter of public debate, in which everyone has a view and in which people are entitled to opposite views; in the latter case there are likewise two ways to see the situation and the solution will be found through discussion and compromise. An issue is a two-way street, in which opinions go both ways. Thanks. This covers and goes well beyond the simple meaning of matter, subject that I was assigning to the word. The use of the word issue within technical support is wide, and so you'd never lose marks for using it in a translation as you have; I suppose I must admit that - with the evolution of language - the word has perhaps become a synonym for problem. But this usage is a bit of co-optation - one doesn't like to admit one's software has problems, so one uses the word issue instead. Problem sounds so negative, an issue is just something to be worked through. I usually like to call a spade a spade (I think this is the english idiom for the concept), so problem is perfectly fine for me in these cases. Moreover, I'm the first to admit my faults, so if something I did or wrote does not work, I have no problem (pardon the pun) in saying that it has a problem unlike, as you point out, some companies or technical support departments (but it seems to me that the same holds for many politicians, managers, etc.). As I say, my objection to this usage stems from one company whose staff were prohibited from the use of the word problem. But technical support problems are frequently NOT a two-way street, and they're not something for discussion compromise the way your spouse's habits might be. If I've bought software from you and it crashes every time I press print it truly IS a problem, and use of the word issue to describe this is, IMO, weasly. Yes, I guess it may be called an euphemism (usually coupled with some amount of hypocrisy, in my modest experience). I hope this helps to explain this fairly obscure entomology. I don't pretend to be a definitive source (I'm not a dictionary), and mine is perhaps a bit of a minority opinion. But as a non-native speaker I guess you may be interested in why I said what I did, so hopefully this clarifies. Surely I was interested, and I thank you for your detailed explanation. You cleared all my issues! :-) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben ser realizadas al correo electrónico [EMAIL PROTECTED] Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías. Automáticamente este email será reenvio a [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
On Mon, 2008-03-03 at 04:04 -0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben ser realizadas al correo electrónico [EMAIL PROTECTED] Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías. Automáticamente este email será reenvio a [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is this spam or what? I seem to be getting the same message over and over to this list... -- Iain Buchanan iaindb at netspace dot net dot au Life is like an analogy. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Digest of gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org issue 1422 (76278-76327)
Iain Buchanan wrote: On Mon, 2008-03-03 at 04:04 -0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Por las nuevas políticas de calidad ISO 9001 que la empresa está implementando, todos los temas relacionados con soporte técnico deben ser realizadas al correo electrónico [EMAIL PROTECTED] Muchas gracias y disculpe las molestías. Automáticamente este email será reenvio a [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is this spam or what? I seem to be getting the same message over and over to this list... I don't know the language but reading between the lines, this is my thoughts. This person has subscribed to the digest version of this list. They have set their email to send a vacation reply. So, every time he/she gets a email of the digest version, it sends out a reply that he/she is not there to read the email. Not that we really care that he/she is not there to read it. ;-) [humor] I'm thinking we send him a email that has a attachment that shuts down his email program. That way it will not send all those out telling us he is on vacation plus his spam mail will not be getting confirmation that the address is valid. [/humor] Make sense to you? Dale :-) :-) :-) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
