Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Tuesday 13 February 2007 17.30.54 Grant Edwards wrote: > How in hell are you supposed to find bugs for thunar when the > don't show up when you search on "thunar"? Include closed bugs in the result... -- Naga -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Tuesday 13 February 2007 17:30:54 Grant Edwards wrote: > >> What am I doing wrong? > > > > Not searching bugs.gentoo.org before posting here > > I did, smartass. Unfortantely, the gentoo bug database search > facility completely sucks: How are we supposed to know that you searched when you don't tell us? > http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=thunar > > > http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166573 > > How in hell are you supposed to find bugs for thunar when the > don't show up when you search on "thunar"? Because you only included open bugs in your search. You needed to include fixed bugs too.. -- Bo Andresen pgphP0xMiiD1z.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Tue, Feb 13, 2007 at 04:30:54PM +, Grant Edwards wrote: > http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=thunar > > > http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166573 > > How in hell are you supposed to find bugs for thunar when the > don't show up when you search on "thunar"? If you include 'ALL', the bug is shown: http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL+thunar Cheers, Rasmus -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:30:54 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: > > Not searching bugs.gentoo.org before posting here > > I did, smartass. That would have been useful information to include in your original post. As you did search and not find one, why didn't you post a bug yourself > Unfortantely, the gentoo bug database search > facility completely sucks: > > http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=thunar > > > http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166573 > > How in hell are you supposed to find bugs for thunar when the > don't show up when you search on "thunar"? Because you didn't search for closed bugs. The problem had not only been found and reported, it had been fixed. In this situation, closed bugs are more important than open ones - would you rather read a fix or a list of other people with the same problem and no solution. -- Neil Bothwick Tribble math: * + * = *** signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Tuesday 13 February 2007, Grant Edwards wrote: > I'd like to apologize for the attitude in this posting. I've > been using Gentoo for over a year and I've always been > extremely frustrated with the Gentoo bug search facility. I > never realized that the search on the main bugs.gentoo.org page > only searched for open bugs. I guess everybody else was just > born knowing that and I missed out on the Gentoo bug search > gene somehow. So that's why I also keep getting such sparse search results when I go looking for stuff on bgo. Hmm We have two explanations: 1. Grant and Alan are both as thick as two short planks 2. bgo's ui is non-intuitive Until 2 minutes ago I would have sworn #1 was the answer alan -- Optimists say the glass is half full, Pessimists say the glass is half empty, Developers say wtf is the glass twice as big as it needs to be? Alan McKinnon alan at linuxholdings dot co dot za +27 82, double three seven, one nine three five -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On 13 February 2007 19:33, Alan McKinnon wrote: > On Tuesday 13 February 2007, Grant Edwards wrote: > > I'd like to apologize for the attitude in this posting. I've > > been using Gentoo for over a year and I've always been > > extremely frustrated with the Gentoo bug search facility. I > > never realized that the search on the main bugs.gentoo.org page > > only searched for open bugs. I guess everybody else was just > > born knowing that and I missed out on the Gentoo bug search > > gene somehow. > > So that's why I also keep getting such sparse search results > when I go looking for stuff on bgo. Hmm > > We have two explanations: > > 1. Grant and Alan are both as thick as two short planks The meme (*not* gene) of having to select something different than the default for getting a complete report has been around for quite some time. Unfortunately, there hadn't been any evolutionary selection for it until very recently. Thus it hadn't time to spread to southern Africa despite modern communication technology. Actually, it hasn't even penetrated the US fully as Grant stands as an example. > 2. bgo's ui is non-intuitive An intuitive UI is an oxymoron. There are good UIs and bad ones. UIs that default to reasonable options and ones that don't. Consistent ones and others. UIs that take user experiences into account and those that don't. UIs that try to take the user's POV seriously and those that insist that the programmers POV is all there is. That said, I have never ever seen any intuitive UI. ;-) Uwe (a GUI programmer) -- A fast and easy generator of fractals for KDE: http://www.SysEx.com.na/iwy-1.0.tar.bz2 Proof of concept of a TSP solver for KDE: http://www.SysEx.com.na/epat-0.1.tar.bz2 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:22:46 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: > For those of us thusly disabled, I think it would be a very > good idea to actually state that default search is only for > open bugs on the search page at ttp://bugs.gentoo.org/ _and_ > display on the results page what the search criteria were. File a bug ;-) -- Neil Bothwick Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use the Net and he won't bother you for weeks. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:22:46 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: > > For those of us thusly disabled, I think it would be a very > > good idea to actually state that default search is only for > > open bugs on the search page at ttp://bugs.gentoo.org/ _and_ > > display on the results page what the search criteria were. > > File a bug ;-) Done: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166725 Benno -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2007-02-13, Rasmus Andersen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2007 at 04:30:54PM +, Grant Edwards wrote: >> >>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=thunar >>> >>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166573 >>> How in hell are you supposed to find bugs for thunar when the >>> don't show up when you search on "thunar"? >>> >> If you include 'ALL', the bug is shown: >> >> http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL+thunar >> > > Thank you! That's what I've been missing. How is one supposed > to know that? There's absolutely no clue on the main page nor > on the results page that it's only searching for _open_ bugs: > > http://bugs.gentoo.org/ > http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=thunar > > If you click on [Help] and look about 2/3 of the way down the > page it does say that by default it only searches for open > bugs. But you can't expect people to click on help unless you > give them some indication that what they've done wasn't right. > > So that's why I can't ever find anything either. < Dale makes a note of this > That is sort of silly. It should include all by default. I would have never noticed that. < sigh > Dale :-) :-) :-) -- www.myspace.com/dalek1967
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:59:50 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote: > Actually I gave up on filing bugs about 6 months ago. > Everytime I've filed a bug in the past, I've gotten flamed > because it's a duplicate of something that's already closed. That won't happen so much now that you know about the ALL option. Duplicate bugs are inevitable, as are bugs being marked as duplicates when they are not. Argue your corner if you are sure your bug is different. -- Neil Bothwick TERROR: A female Klingon with PMS. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
> I hope so. In the past I was always baffled when my searches > didn't find anything relevent but all the bugs I reported were > duplicates. [Actually, I think there was one what wasn't, but > the experience was enough to make me swear off reporting bugs.] I think there is nothing bad in this. At least you know: - the bug you are reporting is already known - some dev has seen it repeteadly, and repetitia iuvant* *"Repeating helps", for the non-Latin speakers :) Please don't give up reporting bugs. It is always important. The open bug reporting and solving process is one of the main goodies that makes OSS so marvellously different from proprietary software. m. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
Grant Edwards ha scritto: > On 2007-02-15, b.n. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> I hope so. In the past I was always baffled when my searches >>> didn't find anything relevent but all the bugs I reported were >>> duplicates. [Actually, I think there was one what wasn't, but >>> the experience was enough to make me swear off reporting bugs.] >> I think there is nothing bad in this. At least you know: >> - the bug you are reporting is already known >> - some dev has seen it repeteadly, and repetitia iuvant* >> >> *"Repeating helps", for the non-Latin speakers :) > > Except that it generates extra work for maintainers who have to > mark the reported bug as a duplicate. If you've tripped over a > bug that's already been reported, perhaps adding a comment > (including how you triggered the bug) to an existing bug is > probably more productive. Sure, but if you weren't aware of the previous bug, a duplicate is better than nothing, perhaps. > OK, I'll start again. Sincere thanks. m. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Thursday 15 February 2007, Grant Edwards wrote: > > I think there is nothing bad in this. At least you know: > > - the bug you are reporting is already known > > - some dev has seen it repeteadly, and repetitia iuvant* > > > > *"Repeating helps", for the non-Latin speakers :) > > Except that it generates extra work for maintainers who have to > mark the reported bug as a duplicate. If you've tripped over a > bug that's already been reported, perhaps adding a comment > (including how you triggered the bug) to an existing bug is > probably more productive. There's an upside as well though. If many people keep reporting the same bug in different ways, it tells themaintainer that the bug is higher priority. If a bug is reported only once, and everyone else that runs into it sees this bug report, and doesn't report their experience, then the maintainer doesn't know about these users. So he/she might consider the bug to be less important, and that would be wrong. Good maintainers consider users to be like customers and sometimes they do get annoyed with many dup bugs. But usually they want reports and it's no big deal or effort actually to mark a bug as a dup. alan -- Optimists say the glass is half full, Pessimists say the glass is half empty, Developers say wtf is the glass twice as big as it needs to be? Alan McKinnon alan at linuxholdings dot co dot za +27 82, double three seven, one nine three five -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Friday 16 February 2007 09:37:00 Alan McKinnon wrote: > There's an upside as well though. If many people keep reporting the same > bug in different ways, it tells themaintainer that the bug is higher > priority. If a bug is reported only once, and everyone else that runs > into it sees this bug report, and doesn't report their experience, then > the maintainer doesn't know about these users. So he/she might consider > the bug to be less important, and that would be wrong. I strongly disagree with this (or at least how this sounds to me). Dupes are a necessary evil because we can't all be perfect at searching bugzilla but considering them to be good just doesn't make sense in my head. Everytime the subject of making it possible to vote on bugs has come up the counter argument has been that the list of CC'ed people already serves that role just as well but without giving the false impression that enough votes will get it fixed. If you want to make it known that you care about any given bug just CC yourself on the bug. I want to make it very clear that purposefully filing dupes to draw attention to an annoying bug is *only* wasting bug wranglers (yep, not the maintainers (and yep, that means jakubs) ;) time just like producing "I confirm this is a bug" comments as the 10th user after it's been acknowledged is only useless bugspam... (I'm sure you didn't mean to do that either but still..). What will get any given bug fixed is for someone (who doesn't have to be dev) to sit down and figure out a solution (and attach it on the bug)... An unlimited number of users saying it's a problem doesn't help at all if there's still noone able to fix it.. > Good maintainers consider users to be like customers and sometimes they > do get annoyed with many dup bugs. Can't really agree with this. They aren't paid so most of the best devs do it solely for their own sake (and because they find it interesting). Also good maintainers fix bugs even if only one user experience it if it's a bug and they are able to fix it. Quality > quantity. > But usually they want reports and it's no big deal or effort actually to > mark a bug as a dup. With the above in mind I guess I can agree on this. If you are unable to find a bug you're experiencing then you'll have to file one to get it fixed (even at the risk of missing it and hence filing a dupe). We all want bugs fixed... -- Bo Andresen pgphYJ2keD0Yp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: thunar won't build?
On Friday 16 February 2007, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote: > On Friday 16 February 2007 09:37:00 Alan McKinnon wrote: > > There's an upside as well though. If many people keep reporting the > > same bug in different ways, it tells themaintainer that the bug is > > higher priority. If a bug is reported only once, and everyone else > > that runs into it sees this bug report, and doesn't report their > > experience, then the maintainer doesn't know about these users. So > > he/she might consider the bug to be less important, and that would > > be wrong. > > I strongly disagree with this (or at least how this sounds to me). > Dupes are a necessary evil because we can't all be perfect at > searching bugzilla but considering them to be good just doesn't make > sense in my head. Perhaps I should elaborate a little, my first post didn't make the entire thing clear. I'm not saying dupes are good, I'm saying that dupes are a fact of life and users enter them. They are annoying to be sure, but we can make a choice: a. discard them out of hand and get all upset, or b. note them, be aware that more than one user ran into the bug, see if there's useful info in the dupe report, mark it as a dupe and get back to work. These take up about the same amount of time and a) is completely negative while b) first extracts any information that is to be had. Personally, I prefer b) as it's a nicer attitude. > Everytime the subject of making it possible to vote on bugs has come > up the counter argument has been that the list of CC'ed people > already serves that role just as well but without giving the false > impression that enough votes will get it fixed. > > If you want to make it known that you care about any given bug just > CC yourself on the bug. I want to make it very clear that > purposefully filing dupes to draw attention to an annoying bug is > *only* wasting bug wranglers (yep, not the maintainers (and yep, that > means jakubs) ;) time just like producing "I confirm this is a bug" > comments as the 10th user after it's been acknowledged is only > useless bugspam... (I'm sure you didn't mean to do that either but > still..). The first "Me too!" probably happened when the second user switched on the first computer and spoke to the first user. They happen, and when users out there in the wild go to bgo and find a bug report relevant to them, they are gonna find a way to enter a Me Too! Why? Because they went to bgo to find information, found it, and now they want to communicate. The user doesn't have a clue what's going on around the dev or any other user, he only sees his own bug and sees that there are nice people at gentoo.org who will help him out, and that there are other people just like him. And he will communicate that. It's all perfectly natural and quite unstoppable. If this causes the devs to be buried alive under sheer quantities of data, then it's time to change the process, without making it impossible for users to communicate that they too ran into a certain bug > What will get any given bug fixed is for someone (who doesn't have to > be dev) to sit down and figure out a solution (and attach it on the > bug)... An unlimited number of users saying it's a problem doesn't > help at all if there's still noone able to fix it.. Very true > > Good maintainers consider users to be like customers and sometimes > > they do get annoyed with many dup bugs. > > Can't really agree with this. They aren't paid so most of the best > devs do it solely for their own sake (and because they find it > interesting). Also good maintainers fix bugs even if only one user > experience it if it's a bug and they are able to fix it. Quality > > quantity. The comparison is that customers are important and worth listening to. One amazing thing about www.gentoo.org is that over and over again I see statements like "we should do X because the users want it" or "Y is causing problems for users". I can't ever remember seeing a dev say things like "We should do Z because I want Z". That's really cool, I take it to mean that the dude maintaining an arb ebuild does it partly to help make *my* life easier, and he thinks I am important to him - just like paying customers are important to businesses alan -- Optimists say the glass is half full, Pessimists say the glass is half empty, Developers say wtf is the glass twice as big as it needs to be? Alan McKinnon alan at linuxholdings dot co dot za +27 82, double three seven, one nine three five -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
