Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Lukas Elsner]

First of all I have to be sorry for this unprofessional overreaction and
my unqualified comment. This really wasnt my week at all.

I thought about what I said and recognized that this wasnt correct at
all. I used my last hhd change to completely remerge my system and copy
only the files I really need.

Making things clean is much better! :D

Thanks Mark for this "waking up" post. I stumbled some more in this
group and now I know what you mean. :)

regards,
lukas


On 11/09/2012 02:56 PM, Mark Knecht wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 4:00 AM, mindrunner  > wrote:
> 
> someone calls me stupid and dumb, because i am sharing my opinion.
> this never happened to me on a dev-mailinglist.
> I came here to help out gentoo users. not to flame war.
> If I want this kind of conversation, i would sign in to gulli board or
> some similar, but not gentoo-users.
> so I thought, we are all grown up here.
> Now I have to leave you again.
> bye
> 
> On 11/08/2012 09:37 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, 8. November 2012, 16:23:08 schrieb mindrunner:
> >> i always use ddrescue for migrating to another hdd.
> >> it is much more comfortable than dd and does not depent on file
> >> systems, etc.
> >> I always prefer copying on block device level.
> >
> > that is just stupid. You copy the fragmentation, the errors, the
> journal log
> > and all the other crap that accumulated over time. No excuses.
> Just dumb.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please, don't take Volker seriously as anyone who represents the basic
> discourse here. I black listed him a year ago but unfortunately his
> rudeness still leaks through. While he is technically capable, far more
> than me certainly, it's my opinion personally that he isn't worth the
> time. Feel free to blacklist him and then listen to others here who are
> technically at least if not far more capable and always more friendly in
> their delivery.
> 
> Good luck,
> Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Mick]

On Thursday 08 Nov 2012 19:46:01 john wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 19:17:25 +0100
> 
> Florian Philipp  wrote:
> > Am 08.11.2012 17:37, schrieb Paul Hartman:
> > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> > > 
> > >  wrote:
> > >> Am 08.11.2012 12:12 schrieb :
> > >>> I am about to change my hard drive on my machine from a 500GB to
> > >>> 2tb.
> > >>> 
> > >>> To transfer I  intend to dd the partitions across and then resize
> > >>> using lvm as home swap var are located on lvm.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Is this the right approach or would you recommend another method?
> > >>> 
> > >>> John D Maunder.
> > >> 
> > >> 2tb drive  probably different sector size. cp -auv recommended.
> > > 
> > > I agree, best approach is to partition and format the new drive as
> > > new, and then copy the files. This will also help you start your new
> > > disk with a lack of fragmentation.
> > 
> > +1
> > 
> > Of course, a simple cp -auv /* /new_root won't suffice because of
> > proc, sys and friends. I prefer
> > mount --bind / /real_root
> > cp -auv /real_root/* /new_root
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Florian Philipp
> 
> Thanks all for advice. Nice work with the mounting.

I often use star with the -copy option (faster and more advanced than tar, 
although I have not timed it), or rsync.  dd and friends for iso copying and 
fs recovery.

-- 
Regards,
Mick


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Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Chris Walters]

On 11/9/2012 10:14 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Freitag, 9. November 2012, 01:38:41 schrieb mindrunner:
>> volker, what is your intention to say i am dumb and stupid. actually you
>> do not know me.
> 
> everybody does something dumb and/or stupid once in a while. I average that 
> one to 1/day.
> 
> There are two ways to react if someone points out that something you do is 
> not 
> the best idea since sliced bread.
> 
> -> oops. Yeah, I see it.
> or
> -> sulking.

I'm going to have to agree with Volker on this.  I don't believe he was calling
*you* stupid - just the idea of using dd to transfer files from old drive to
new drive.  The dd utility has it's good uses - that's just not one of those
good uses.

> no, it does not. Apart from fragmentation you also copy all deleted files. 
> All 
> damaged blocks AND the UUID. 
> 
> Oh, and it is slow (I know, fiddling with blocksize etc you can speed it up a 
> lot. Still slow).

Yes, you copy everything with dd, and it is extremely slow.  It is better to
use another utility to just copy the files and directory structure from the old
drive to the new one.

> Create an image with dd to do some file rescuing? forensic stuff? as a 
> template 
> for containers? To burn it on a dvd/cd? Well, those are valid uses for dd. 
> Converting files? Yes, that is what dd was made for.

Agreed.

> Copying a partition to another disk, different disk? Wow.. that is just 
> wrong. 
> Even if both disks were identical it would not be great idea. Just a 'well, 
> it 
> does work and at least I am not punishing the new disk' way to do it.
> 
> Mind you, cp -auv is not the best way either. With ACLs&co it is not such a 
> good choice. And I am surprised that Joerg Schilling hasn't posted how 
> incredible star is for this job yet. Btw, star is a really good tool for the 
> job. It just needs a lot of typing. 
> 
> tar, rsync, cp, star... there are many good or good enough ways to copy files 
> from one harddisk to another
> 
> dd doesn't belong in that category.

Very true.  I'd personally rather use tar or even dar to copy the files.  cp
has it's limitations, though it is faster, as it doesn't use compression
(technically, you don't need that with tar, either).

Regards,
Chris


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Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Bruce Hill]

On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 04:14:47PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Freitag, 9. November 2012, 01:38:41 schrieb mindrunner:
> > volker, what is your intention to say i am dumb and stupid. actually you
> > do not know me.
> 
> everybody does something dumb and/or stupid once in a while. I average that 
> one to 1/day.
> 
> There are two ways to react if someone points out that something you do is 
> not 
> the best idea since sliced bread.
> 
> -> oops. Yeah, I see it.
> or
> -> sulking.
>  
> > 
> > copying on block device level has of cource advantages. and really... i
> > dont care about 0.4% fragemntation and some journal log.
> > 
> 
> no, it does not. Apart from fragmentation you also copy all deleted files. 
> All 
> damaged blocks AND the UUID. 
> 
> Oh, and it is slow (I know, fiddling with blocksize etc you can speed it up a 
> lot. Still slow).
> 
> > I never made bad experiences with this copy technique.
> 
> which doesn't mean it is a good one.
> 
> > all my hard drives, ssd and virtual containers are working fine without
> > any performance issues.
> 
> How do you know?
>  
> > so what exactly is your problem?
> 
> you are telling someone to do something really stupid.
> 
> Create an image with dd to do some file rescuing? forensic stuff? as a 
> template 
> for containers? To burn it on a dvd/cd? Well, those are valid uses for dd. 
> Converting files? Yes, that is what dd was made for.
> 
> Copying a partition to another disk, different disk? Wow.. that is just 
> wrong. 
> Even if both disks were identical it would not be great idea. Just a 'well, 
> it 
> does work and at least I am not punishing the new disk' way to do it.
> 
> Mind you, cp -auv is not the best way either. With ACLs&co it is not such a 
> good choice. And I am surprised that Joerg Schilling hasn't posted how 
> incredible star is for this job yet. Btw, star is a really good tool for the 
> job. It just needs a lot of typing. 
> 
> tar, rsync, cp, star... there are many good or good enough ways to copy files 
> from one harddisk to another
> 
> dd doesn't belong in that category.
> 
> - 
> #163933

Spot on! Here you can be nice and explain to the guy your reasoning behind
telling him using dd{whatever} for this job is stupid.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   >')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
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662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

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Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Freitag, 9. November 2012, 01:38:41 schrieb mindrunner:
> volker, what is your intention to say i am dumb and stupid. actually you
> do not know me.

everybody does something dumb and/or stupid once in a while. I average that 
one to 1/day.

There are two ways to react if someone points out that something you do is not 
the best idea since sliced bread.

-> oops. Yeah, I see it.
or
-> sulking.
 
> 
> copying on block device level has of cource advantages. and really... i
> dont care about 0.4% fragemntation and some journal log.
> 

no, it does not. Apart from fragmentation you also copy all deleted files. All 
damaged blocks AND the UUID. 

Oh, and it is slow (I know, fiddling with blocksize etc you can speed it up a 
lot. Still slow).

> I never made bad experiences with this copy technique.

which doesn't mean it is a good one.

> all my hard drives, ssd and virtual containers are working fine without
> any performance issues.

How do you know?
 
> so what exactly is your problem?

you are telling someone to do something really stupid.

Create an image with dd to do some file rescuing? forensic stuff? as a template 
for containers? To burn it on a dvd/cd? Well, those are valid uses for dd. 
Converting files? Yes, that is what dd was made for.

Copying a partition to another disk, different disk? Wow.. that is just wrong. 
Even if both disks were identical it would not be great idea. Just a 'well, it 
does work and at least I am not punishing the new disk' way to do it.

Mind you, cp -auv is not the best way either. With ACLs&co it is not such a 
good choice. And I am surprised that Joerg Schilling hasn't posted how 
incredible star is for this job yet. Btw, star is a really good tool for the 
job. It just needs a lot of typing. 

tar, rsync, cp, star... there are many good or good enough ways to copy files 
from one harddisk to another

dd doesn't belong in that category.

- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Bruce Hill]

On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 09:00:35AM -0500, Philip Webb wrote:
> 
> Don't worry re VAH : he writes like that, but there's no ill-will
> & often he has something useful to say.  Most of the time,
> Gentoo-User is polite + intelligent & a good source of Linux education.
> In this case, as someone else pointed out, VAH calls your idea "stupid",
> which may be an exaggeration, but he does offer an explanation.

Nice to read, and if it holds true, my apologies 'on the list' to VAH.

> At the risk of further antagonising you (smile):
> (1) don't top-post !  (2) please use your real name.

ack
(click and read the link in my sig if you don't understand)
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   >')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

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Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Bruce Hill]

On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 05:56:57AM -0800, Mark Knecht wrote:
> >
> Please, don't take Volker seriously as anyone who represents the basic
> discourse here. I black listed him a year ago but unfortunately his
> rudeness still leaks through. While he is technically capable, far more
> than me certainly, it's my opinion personally that he isn't worth the time.
> Feel free to blacklist him and then listen to others here who are
> technically at least if not far more capable and always more friendly in
> their delivery.
> 
> Good luck,
> Mark

Thanks for clarifying ... Volker Armin Hemmann ... done
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   >')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
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Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Philip Webb]

121109 mindrunner wrote:
> On 11/08/2012 09:37 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> Am Donnerstag, 8. November 2012, 16:23:08 schrieb mindrunner:
>>> i always use ddrescue for migrating to another hdd.
>> that is just stupid. You copy the fragmentation, the errors,
> the journal log  and all the other crap that accumulated over time.
> someone calls me stupid and dumb, because i am sharing my opinion.
> this never happened to me on a dev-mailinglist.
> I came here to help out gentoo users. not to flame war.

Don't worry re VAH : he writes like that, but there's no ill-will
& often he has something useful to say.  Most of the time,
Gentoo-User is polite + intelligent & a good source of Linux education.
In this case, as someone else pointed out, VAH calls your idea "stupid",
which may be an exaggeration, but he does offer an explanation.

At the risk of further antagonising you (smile):
(1) don't top-post !  (2) please use your real name.

-- 
,,
SUPPORT ___//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT`-O--O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Mark Knecht]

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 4:00 AM, mindrunner  wrote:

> someone calls me stupid and dumb, because i am sharing my opinion.
> this never happened to me on a dev-mailinglist.
> I came here to help out gentoo users. not to flame war.
> If I want this kind of conversation, i would sign in to gulli board or
> some similar, but not gentoo-users.
> so I thought, we are all grown up here.
> Now I have to leave you again.
> bye
>
> On 11/08/2012 09:37 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, 8. November 2012, 16:23:08 schrieb mindrunner:
> >> i always use ddrescue for migrating to another hdd.
> >> it is much more comfortable than dd and does not depent on file
> >> systems, etc.
> >> I always prefer copying on block device level.
> >
> > that is just stupid. You copy the fragmentation, the errors, the journal
> log
> > and all the other crap that accumulated over time. No excuses. Just dumb.
> >
> >
>
>
Please, don't take Volker seriously as anyone who represents the basic
discourse here. I black listed him a year ago but unfortunately his
rudeness still leaks through. While he is technically capable, far more
than me certainly, it's my opinion personally that he isn't worth the time.
Feel free to blacklist him and then listen to others here who are
technically at least if not far more capable and always more friendly in
their delivery.

Good luck,
Mark

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Bruce Hill]

On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 01:00:05PM +0100, mindrunner wrote:
> someone calls me stupid and dumb, because i am sharing my opinion.
> this never happened to me on a dev-mailinglist.
> I came here to help out gentoo users. not to flame war.
> If I want this kind of conversation, i would sign in to gulli board or
> some similar, but not gentoo-users.
> so I thought, we are all grown up here.
> Now I have to leave you again.
> bye
> 
> On 11/08/2012 09:37 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, 8. November 2012, 16:23:08 schrieb mindrunner:
> >> i always use ddrescue for migrating to another hdd.
> >> it is much more comfortable than dd and does not depent on file
> >> systems, etc.
> >> I always prefer copying on block device level.
> > 
> > that is just stupid. You copy the fragmentation, the errors, the journal 
> > log 
> > and all the other crap that accumulated over time. No excuses. Just dumb.
> > 
> > 

If you're still around...

He didn't call *you* stupid. He called your *suggestion* stupid. It was rude,
but then, what do you expect here? Seems this ML doesn't stick to technical
discussions, but frequently digresses to such small-minded talk. It's those
people who want to appear more intelligent and/or experienced than they
actually are who do that. Those who *really* know their stuff don't stoop to
such.

If you can't take someone criticizing your opinion, then you need to stop
participating in group discussions on the internet. Especially when they're
not in your native language.
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Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
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Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[mindrunner]

someone calls me stupid and dumb, because i am sharing my opinion.
this never happened to me on a dev-mailinglist.
I came here to help out gentoo users. not to flame war.
If I want this kind of conversation, i would sign in to gulli board or
some similar, but not gentoo-users.
so I thought, we are all grown up here.
Now I have to leave you again.
bye

On 11/08/2012 09:37 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 8. November 2012, 16:23:08 schrieb mindrunner:
>> i always use ddrescue for migrating to another hdd.
>> it is much more comfortable than dd and does not depent on file
>> systems, etc.
>> I always prefer copying on block device level.
> 
> that is just stupid. You copy the fragmentation, the errors, the journal log 
> and all the other crap that accumulated over time. No excuses. Just dumb.
> 
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Donnerstag, 8. November 2012, 16:23:08 schrieb mindrunner:
> i always use ddrescue for migrating to another hdd.
> it is much more comfortable than dd and does not depent on file
> systems, etc.
> I always prefer copying on block device level.

that is just stupid. You copy the fragmentation, the errors, the journal log 
and all the other crap that accumulated over time. No excuses. Just dumb.


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[john]

On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 19:17:25 +0100
Florian Philipp  wrote:

> Am 08.11.2012 17:37, schrieb Paul Hartman:
> > On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> >  wrote:
> >> Am 08.11.2012 12:12 schrieb :
> >>
> >>> I am about to change my hard drive on my machine from a 500GB to
> >>> 2tb.
> >>>
> >>> To transfer I  intend to dd the partitions across and then resize
> >>> using lvm as home swap var are located on lvm.
> >>>
> >>> Is this the right approach or would you recommend another method?
> >>>
> >>> John D Maunder.
> >>
> >> 2tb drive  probably different sector size. cp -auv recommended.
> >>
> > 
> > I agree, best approach is to partition and format the new drive as
> > new, and then copy the files. This will also help you start your new
> > disk with a lack of fragmentation.
> > 
> 
> +1
> 
> Of course, a simple cp -auv /* /new_root won't suffice because of
> proc, sys and friends. I prefer
> mount --bind / /real_root
> cp -auv /real_root/* /new_root
> 
> Regards,
> Florian Philipp
> 

Thanks all for advice. Nice work with the mounting.



 

-- 
John D Maunder

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[mindrunner]

I never payed attention to this. all i know is that the alignment is
correct. (checked with parted)


On 11/08/2012 04:37 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 16:23:08 +0100, mindrunner wrote:
> 
>> i always use ddrescue for migrating to another hdd.
>> it is much more comfortable than dd and does not depent on file
>> systems, etc.
>> I always prefer copying on block device level.
> 
> Even when the two devices have different block sizes?
> 
> At best you'd get crap performance from misaligned filesystem boundaries.
> 
> 

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Florian Philipp]

Am 08.11.2012 17:37, schrieb Paul Hartman:
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>  wrote:
>> Am 08.11.2012 12:12 schrieb :
>>
>>> I am about to change my hard drive on my machine from a 500GB to 2tb.
>>>
>>> To transfer I  intend to dd the partitions across and then resize using
>>> lvm as home swap var are located on lvm.
>>>
>>> Is this the right approach or would you recommend another method?
>>>
>>> John D Maunder.
>>
>> 2tb drive  probably different sector size. cp -auv recommended.
>>
> 
> I agree, best approach is to partition and format the new drive as
> new, and then copy the files. This will also help you start your new
> disk with a lack of fragmentation.
> 

+1

Of course, a simple cp -auv /* /new_root won't suffice because of proc,
sys and friends. I prefer
mount --bind / /real_root
cp -auv /real_root/* /new_root

Regards,
Florian Philipp



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Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Paul Hartman]

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
 wrote:
> Am 08.11.2012 12:12 schrieb :
>
>> I am about to change my hard drive on my machine from a 500GB to 2tb.
>>
>> To transfer I  intend to dd the partitions across and then resize using
>> lvm as home swap var are located on lvm.
>>
>> Is this the right approach or would you recommend another method?
>>
>> John D Maunder.
>
> 2tb drive  probably different sector size. cp -auv recommended.
>

I agree, best approach is to partition and format the new drive as
new, and then copy the files. This will also help you start your new
disk with a lack of fragmentation.

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Neil Bothwick]

On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 16:23:08 +0100, mindrunner wrote:

> i always use ddrescue for migrating to another hdd.
> it is much more comfortable than dd and does not depent on file
> systems, etc.
> I always prefer copying on block device level.

Even when the two devices have different block sizes?

At best you'd get crap performance from misaligned filesystem boundaries.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 10: Computer security


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Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[mindrunner]

i always use ddrescue for migrating to another hdd.
it is much more comfortable than dd and does not depent on file
systems, etc.
I always prefer copying on block device level.


On 11/08/2012 03:12 PM, Srdjan Rakic wrote:
> I used rsync for that.
>
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> mailto:volkerar...@googlemail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> 2tb drive  probably different sector size. cp -auv recommended.
>
> Am 08.11.2012 12:12 schrieb  >:
>
> I am about to change my hard drive on my machine from a 500GB to
> 2tb.
>
> To transfer I  intend to dd the partitions across and then resize
> using lvm as home swap var are located on lvm.
>
> Is this the right approach or would you recommend another method?
>
> John D Maunder.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Neil Bothwick]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2012 14:03:08 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> 2tb drive  probably different sector size. cp -auv recommended.

Very good point. Use cp, rsync, tar or lvm tools, in fact anything but dd.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Like an atheist in a grave: all dressed up and no place to go.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Srdjan Rakic]

I used rsync for that.

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann <
volkerar...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> 2tb drive  probably different sector size. cp -auv recommended.
> Am 08.11.2012 12:12 schrieb :
>
> I am about to change my hard drive on my machine from a 500GB to 2tb.
>>
>> To transfer I  intend to dd the partitions across and then resize using
>> lvm as home swap var are located on lvm.
>>
>> Is this the right approach or would you recommend another method?
>>
>> John D Maunder.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

2tb drive  probably different sector size. cp -auv recommended.
Am 08.11.2012 12:12 schrieb :

> I am about to change my hard drive on my machine from a 500GB to 2tb.
>
> To transfer I  intend to dd the partitions across and then resize using
> lvm as home swap var are located on lvm.
>
> Is this the right approach or would you recommend another method?
>
> John D Maunder.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[jdm]

Neil Bothwick  wrote :

> On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:08:18 +, j...@jdm.myzen.co.uk
> wrote:
> 
> > I am about to change my hard drive on my machine from a 500GB to 2tb.
> > 
> > To transfer I  intend to dd the partitions across and then resize using
> > lvm as home swap var are located on lvm.
> 
> Can you connect both drives ate the same time? If so you can create a PV
> on the new drive, add it to your VG and then use lvmove to move the date
> before removing the old drive from the VG. That way you can continue to
> use the computer while the transfer takes place.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Neil Bothwick
> 
> How do I set my laser printer to stun?

Yes I can connect to both drives at the same time. My root partition is not on 
lvm. This sounds like an excellent idea. Thanks.

Fairly new to lvm but it seems very solid and capable

Re: [gentoo-user] Hard drive change

[Neil Bothwick]

On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:08:18 +, j...@jdm.myzen.co.uk wrote:

> I am about to change my hard drive on my machine from a 500GB to 2tb.
> 
> To transfer I  intend to dd the partitions across and then resize using
> lvm as home swap var are located on lvm.

Can you connect both drives ate the same time? If so you can create a PV
on the new drive, add it to your VG and then use lvmove to move the date
before removing the old drive from the VG. That way you can continue to
use the computer while the transfer takes place.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

How do I set my laser printer to stun?


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