GHC and the future of Freenode

[Ben Gamari]

Hi all,

As you may have heard the Freenode IRC network, long the home of #ghc
and several other prominent Haskell channels, appears to be in the
middle of a rather nasty hostile takeover [1,2,3,4]. As a consequence,
it seems it will be necessary to migrate the #ghc community elsewhere.

The next question is, of course, where will this be. One option is
Liberachat, the spiritual successor of Freenode. However, in recent
years I have also heard an increasingly loud choir of users,
contributors, and potential-contributors note how archane IRC feels when
compared to other modern chat platforms. Using IRC effectively in a
collaborative environment essentially requires that all parties use a
bouncer; however, this is (understandably) isn't something that most users
are willing to do.

Consequently, I think it would be wise to expand our search space to
include other FOSS platforms. At the moment, I can see the following
options:

 1. Remain on IRC and move to Liberachat, the spiritual successor of
Freenode

 2. Remain on IRC and move to OFTC, another widely used network

 3. Move to [Matrix]

 4. Move to [Zulip]

My sense is that of the non-IRC options Matrix is the truest successor
to IRC, being a federated protocol with a wide array of (if somewhat
immature) clients. I know some of our contributors already use it and in
principle one could configure an IRC-to-Matrix bridge for those existing
contributors who would rather continue using IRC.

Zulip, while also being FOSS, is far more centralized than Matrix and
appears to be more of a chat web application than an open protocol.

Do you know of any other options? Thoughts?

Cheers,

- Ben



[1]: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409
[2]: https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
[3]: https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bdd66b8f491
[4]: https://mniip.com/freenode.txt
[Matrix]: https://www.matrix.org/
[Zulip]: 


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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Sebastian Graf]

Hi,

As one of those contributors that is already using the 
Matrix-to-freenode-IRC bridge through http://element.io/, I'd prefer 
moving to Matrix.
And *if* we commit to a move, I suggest we don't move to another IRC 
server. That leaves Zulip vs. Matrix, both of which I'd be fine with.


For some more data points: I know that the Lean community uses Zulip and 
they are pretty happy with it. The threading model seems to be pretty 
useful.
On the other hand, it's so easy to open a new group chat in Matrix (and 
name it whatever you want) that it is pretty much the same as opening a 
new thread in Zulip.
Our chair used to communicate via IRC, too. We considered switching to 
Zulip or Matrix in the past and ultimately decided in favor of Matrix, 
simply because most of us were already using element.io (+ the IRC 
bridge) for its mobile client and history logging.


Cheers,
Sebastian

-- Originalnachricht --
Von: "Ben Gamari" 
An: "GHC developers" 
Gesendet: 19.05.2021 14:56:23
Betreff: GHC and the future of Freenode


Hi all,

As you may have heard the Freenode IRC network, long the home of #ghc
and several other prominent Haskell channels, appears to be in the
middle of a rather nasty hostile takeover [1,2,3,4]. As a consequence,
it seems it will be necessary to migrate the #ghc community elsewhere.

The next question is, of course, where will this be. One option is
Liberachat, the spiritual successor of Freenode. However, in recent
years I have also heard an increasingly loud choir of users,
contributors, and potential-contributors note how archane IRC feels when
compared to other modern chat platforms. Using IRC effectively in a
collaborative environment essentially requires that all parties use a
bouncer; however, this is (understandably) isn't something that most users
are willing to do.

Consequently, I think it would be wise to expand our search space to
include other FOSS platforms. At the moment, I can see the following
options:

 1. Remain on IRC and move to Liberachat, the spiritual successor of
Freenode

 2. Remain on IRC and move to OFTC, another widely used network

 3. Move to [Matrix]

 4. Move to [Zulip]

My sense is that of the non-IRC options Matrix is the truest successor
to IRC, being a federated protocol with a wide array of (if somewhat
immature) clients. I know some of our contributors already use it and in
principle one could configure an IRC-to-Matrix bridge for those existing
contributors who would rather continue using IRC.

Zulip, while also being FOSS, is far more centralized than Matrix and
appears to be more of a chat web application than an open protocol.

Do you know of any other options? Thoughts?

Cheers,

- Ben



[1]: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409
[2]: https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
[3]: https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bdd66b8f491
[4]: https://mniip.com/freenode.txt
[Matrix]: https://www.matrix.org/
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Jack Hill]

On Wed, 19 May 2021, Ben Gamari wrote:


Hi all,

As you may have heard the Freenode IRC network, long the home of #ghc
and several other prominent Haskell channels, appears to be in the
middle of a rather nasty hostile takeover [1,2,3,4]. As a consequence,
it seems it will be necessary to migrate the #ghc community elsewhere.


[…]


Consequently, I think it would be wise to expand our search space to
include other FOSS platforms. At the moment, I can see the following
options:

1. Remain on IRC and move to Liberachat, the spiritual successor of
   Freenode

2. Remain on IRC and move to OFTC, another widely used network

3. Move to [Matrix]

4. Move to [Zulip]

My sense is that of the non-IRC options Matrix is the truest successor
to IRC, being a federated protocol with a wide array of (if somewhat
immature) clients. I know some of our contributors already use it and in
principle one could configure an IRC-to-Matrix bridge for those existing
contributors who would rather continue using IRC.

Zulip, while also being FOSS, is far more centralized than Matrix and
appears to be more of a chat web application than an open protocol.

Do you know of any other options? Thoughts?


Ben,

Thanks for starting this conversation. I don't have much standing here as 
up until now, I've only been an observer, but I did notice one option 
missing from the list, and that's an XMPP [0] MUC (multi-user chat, a 
chatroom). Like Matrix, it is also federated and has many client and 
(unlike Matrix) many server implementations. I also noticed that the 
cheogram folks are offering to host free and open source projects [1].


[0] https://xmpp.org/2021/01/instant-messaging-its-not-about-the-app/
[1] https://cheogram.com/freedomware-muc/

I can't advocate for one path or another. However, I'm still charting my 
one way, and am interested in seeing this option evaluated.


A closing thought: it might be nice if #haskell and #ghc end up at the 
same place, although that might be difficult if the two groups have 
different needs.


Best,
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Carter Schonwald]

I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.

What are some example vibrant  technical communities on matrix? I’ve
experienced such on irc but less so via more recent / newer platforms

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 8:57 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> As you may have heard the Freenode IRC network, long the home of #ghc
> and several other prominent Haskell channels, appears to be in the
> middle of a rather nasty hostile takeover [1,2,3,4]. As a consequence,
> it seems it will be necessary to migrate the #ghc community elsewhere.
>
> The next question is, of course, where will this be. One option is
> Liberachat, the spiritual successor of Freenode. However, in recent
> years I have also heard an increasingly loud choir of users,
> contributors, and potential-contributors note how archane IRC feels when
> compared to other modern chat platforms. Using IRC effectively in a
> collaborative environment essentially requires that all parties use a
> bouncer; however, this is (understandably) isn't something that most users
> are willing to do.
>
> Consequently, I think it would be wise to expand our search space to
> include other FOSS platforms. At the moment, I can see the following
> options:
>
>  1. Remain on IRC and move to Liberachat, the spiritual successor of
> Freenode
>
>  2. Remain on IRC and move to OFTC, another widely used network
>
>  3. Move to [Matrix]
>
>  4. Move to [Zulip]
>
> My sense is that of the non-IRC options Matrix is the truest successor
> to IRC, being a federated protocol with a wide array of (if somewhat
> immature) clients. I know some of our contributors already use it and in
> principle one could configure an IRC-to-Matrix bridge for those existing
> contributors who would rather continue using IRC.
>
> Zulip, while also being FOSS, is far more centralized than Matrix and
> appears to be more of a chat web application than an open protocol.
>
> Do you know of any other options? Thoughts?
>
> Cheers,
>
> - Ben
>
>
>
> [1]: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409
> [2]: https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt
> [3]: https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a9a93ded5b7d162c3f58bdd66b8f491
> [4]: https://mniip.com/freenode.txt
> [Matrix]: https://www.matrix.org/
> [Zulip]:
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Ben Gamari]

Carter Schonwald  writes:

> I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.
>
> What are some example vibrant  technical communities on matrix? I’ve
> experienced such on irc but less so via more recent / newer platforms
>
I know that many subcommunities within the Rust community use Matrix. I
have had quite good interactions in this context. Frankly I think that
most of these newer options are technically much more conducive to
technical collaboration than IRC.

Cheers,

- Ben



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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

(I'm a little ashamed that I lurk on this list but the thing that brings me
out of lurking is a post on communication technologies)

Not Zulip.

Please not Zulip.

I've used Zulip once many years ago, and once this year. Both times, its
interface felt clunky, and it felt like it was trying to get the best of
IRC, Slack, and a BBS and instead getting the worst of all the worlds.
Synchronous communication was confusing, asynchronous communication was
limited, and topics and channels didn't really do anything to organize
things.

I have two alternatives to add to consideration:
* Mattermost: it's an open-source clone of Slack, which has its advantages
and disadvantages, but at least it's familiar and heavily used UI
* Discourse: it's an asynchronous communication tool, but that may
acceptable or preferable, and there is already a Haskell Discourse set up (
https://discourse.haskell.org/)

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:59 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:

> Carter Schonwald  writes:
>
> > I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.
> >
> > What are some example vibrant  technical communities on matrix? I’ve
> > experienced such on irc but less so via more recent / newer platforms
> >
> I know that many subcommunities within the Rust community use Matrix. I
> have had quite good interactions in this context. Frankly I think that
> most of these newer options are technically much more conducive to
> technical collaboration than IRC.
>
> Cheers,
>
> - Ben
>
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Carter Schonwald]

I definitely find Zulip confusing and have failed to use it every time I’ve
tried

If normal threading is lasagna layers, Zulip threading is like trying to
hold cooked spaghetti in your ha d.

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:40 PM Alex Rozenshteyn 
wrote:

> (I'm a little ashamed that I lurk on this list but the thing that brings
> me out of lurking is a post on communication technologies)
>
> Not Zulip.
>
> Please not Zulip.
>
> I've used Zulip once many years ago, and once this year. Both times, its
> interface felt clunky, and it felt like it was trying to get the best of
> IRC, Slack, and a BBS and instead getting the worst of all the worlds.
> Synchronous communication was confusing, asynchronous communication was
> limited, and topics and channels didn't really do anything to organize
> things.
>
> I have two alternatives to add to consideration:
> * Mattermost: it's an open-source clone of Slack, which has its advantages
> and disadvantages, but at least it's familiar and heavily used UI
> * Discourse: it's an asynchronous communication tool, but that may
> acceptable or preferable, and there is already a Haskell Discourse set up (
> https://discourse.haskell.org/)
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:59 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:
>
>> Carter Schonwald  writes:
>>
>> > I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.
>> >
>> > What are some example vibrant  technical communities on matrix? I’ve
>> > experienced such on irc but less so via more recent / newer platforms
>> >
>> I know that many subcommunities within the Rust community use Matrix. I
>> have had quite good interactions in this context. Frankly I think that
>> most of these newer options are technically much more conducive to
>> technical collaboration than IRC.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> - Ben
>>
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Mario Carneiro]

Speaking as a *heavy* user of the Rust and Lean zulip instances, I find it
a huge improvement over the alternatives of Gitter and Discord, and I think
IRC although I have not used IRC much. It takes some getting used to, but
the topic threading is absolutely essential once you reach a certain size.
Looking at other chat platforms, overlapping conversations are a major
problem when you have more than around 10 people online at once. Rust
routinely has 50 or more online at once, and channels help but even then
you will have multiple topics in a single channel, and that extra level of
organization is absolutely warranted. It also helps when you want to look
back at the discussion (or even just find it again!) or continue an old
conversation from a year ago. Most of these activities I couldn't even
imagine doing in a Gitter/Discord style chat platform.

I have no stake in this discussion, but I thought I should balance out the
Zulip downvotes with some positive experiences. (Also, I would definitely
be more likely to participate on a haskell Zulip than an IRC or Matrix
instance, FWIW.)

Mario Carneiro

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:58 PM Carter Schonwald 
wrote:

> I definitely find Zulip confusing and have failed to use it every time
> I’ve tried
>
> If normal threading is lasagna layers, Zulip threading is like trying to
> hold cooked spaghetti in your ha d.
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:40 PM Alex Rozenshteyn 
> wrote:
>
>> (I'm a little ashamed that I lurk on this list but the thing that brings
>> me out of lurking is a post on communication technologies)
>>
>> Not Zulip.
>>
>> Please not Zulip.
>>
>> I've used Zulip once many years ago, and once this year. Both times, its
>> interface felt clunky, and it felt like it was trying to get the best of
>> IRC, Slack, and a BBS and instead getting the worst of all the worlds.
>> Synchronous communication was confusing, asynchronous communication was
>> limited, and topics and channels didn't really do anything to organize
>> things.
>>
>> I have two alternatives to add to consideration:
>> * Mattermost: it's an open-source clone of Slack, which has its
>> advantages and disadvantages, but at least it's familiar and heavily used UI
>> * Discourse: it's an asynchronous communication tool, but that may
>> acceptable or preferable, and there is already a Haskell Discourse set up (
>> https://discourse.haskell.org/)
>>
>> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:59 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:
>>
>>> Carter Schonwald  writes:
>>>
>>> > I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.
>>> >
>>> > What are some example vibrant  technical communities on matrix? I’ve
>>> > experienced such on irc but less so via more recent / newer platforms
>>> >
>>> I know that many subcommunities within the Rust community use Matrix. I
>>> have had quite good interactions in this context. Frankly I think that
>>> most of these newer options are technically much more conducive to
>>> technical collaboration than IRC.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> - Ben
>>>
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Alex Rozenshteyn]

Thanks for the perspective! I was not thinking of Gitter or Discord as
being in the running for various reasons.

On Wed, May 19, 2021, 22:27 Mario Carneiro  wrote:

> Speaking as a *heavy* user of the Rust and Lean zulip instances, I find it
> a huge improvement over the alternatives of Gitter and Discord, and I think
> IRC although I have not used IRC much. It takes some getting used to, but
> the topic threading is absolutely essential once you reach a certain size.
> Looking at other chat platforms, overlapping conversations are a major
> problem when you have more than around 10 people online at once. Rust
> routinely has 50 or more online at once, and channels help but even then
> you will have multiple topics in a single channel, and that extra level of
> organization is absolutely warranted. It also helps when you want to look
> back at the discussion (or even just find it again!) or continue an old
> conversation from a year ago. Most of these activities I couldn't even
> imagine doing in a Gitter/Discord style chat platform.
>
> I have no stake in this discussion, but I thought I should balance out the
> Zulip downvotes with some positive experiences. (Also, I would definitely
> be more likely to participate on a haskell Zulip than an IRC or Matrix
> instance, FWIW.)
>
> Mario Carneiro
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:58 PM Carter Schonwald <
> carter.schonw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I definitely find Zulip confusing and have failed to use it every time
>> I’ve tried
>>
>> If normal threading is lasagna layers, Zulip threading is like trying to
>> hold cooked spaghetti in your ha d.
>>
>> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:40 PM Alex Rozenshteyn 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> (I'm a little ashamed that I lurk on this list but the thing that brings
>>> me out of lurking is a post on communication technologies)
>>>
>>> Not Zulip.
>>>
>>> Please not Zulip.
>>>
>>> I've used Zulip once many years ago, and once this year. Both times, its
>>> interface felt clunky, and it felt like it was trying to get the best of
>>> IRC, Slack, and a BBS and instead getting the worst of all the worlds.
>>> Synchronous communication was confusing, asynchronous communication was
>>> limited, and topics and channels didn't really do anything to organize
>>> things.
>>>
>>> I have two alternatives to add to consideration:
>>> * Mattermost: it's an open-source clone of Slack, which has its
>>> advantages and disadvantages, but at least it's familiar and heavily used UI
>>> * Discourse: it's an asynchronous communication tool, but that may
>>> acceptable or preferable, and there is already a Haskell Discourse set up (
>>> https://discourse.haskell.org/)
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:59 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:
>>>
 Carter Schonwald  writes:

 > I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.
 >
 > What are some example vibrant  technical communities on matrix? I’ve
 > experienced such on irc but less so via more recent / newer platforms
 >
 I know that many subcommunities within the Rust community use Matrix. I
 have had quite good interactions in this context. Frankly I think that
 most of these newer options are technically much more conducive to
 technical collaboration than IRC.

 Cheers,

 - Ben

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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Artem Pelenitsyn]

I've been using the recently created Types Zulip (for academic PL) -- my
first experience with this platform -- and also found it unusual at first
but then quite liked the dynamic topics thing (exactly for reasons Mario
describes).

Zulip or anything from 21st century would be a huge improvement on status
quo (i.e. IRC) in terms of attraction of new contributors. Think the
Phabricator –> GitLab transition but in the IM space.

--
Best, Artem

On Wed, May 19, 2021, 10:26 PM Mario Carneiro 
wrote:

> Speaking as a *heavy* user of the Rust and Lean zulip instances, I find it
> a huge improvement over the alternatives of Gitter and Discord, and I think
> IRC although I have not used IRC much. It takes some getting used to, but
> the topic threading is absolutely essential once you reach a certain size.
> Looking at other chat platforms, overlapping conversations are a major
> problem when you have more than around 10 people online at once. Rust
> routinely has 50 or more online at once, and channels help but even then
> you will have multiple topics in a single channel, and that extra level of
> organization is absolutely warranted. It also helps when you want to look
> back at the discussion (or even just find it again!) or continue an old
> conversation from a year ago. Most of these activities I couldn't even
> imagine doing in a Gitter/Discord style chat platform.
>
> I have no stake in this discussion, but I thought I should balance out the
> Zulip downvotes with some positive experiences. (Also, I would definitely
> be more likely to participate on a haskell Zulip than an IRC or Matrix
> instance, FWIW.)
>
> Mario Carneiro
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:58 PM Carter Schonwald <
> carter.schonw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I definitely find Zulip confusing and have failed to use it every time
>> I’ve tried
>>
>> If normal threading is lasagna layers, Zulip threading is like trying to
>> hold cooked spaghetti in your ha d.
>>
>> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:40 PM Alex Rozenshteyn 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> (I'm a little ashamed that I lurk on this list but the thing that brings
>>> me out of lurking is a post on communication technologies)
>>>
>>> Not Zulip.
>>>
>>> Please not Zulip.
>>>
>>> I've used Zulip once many years ago, and once this year. Both times, its
>>> interface felt clunky, and it felt like it was trying to get the best of
>>> IRC, Slack, and a BBS and instead getting the worst of all the worlds.
>>> Synchronous communication was confusing, asynchronous communication was
>>> limited, and topics and channels didn't really do anything to organize
>>> things.
>>>
>>> I have two alternatives to add to consideration:
>>> * Mattermost: it's an open-source clone of Slack, which has its
>>> advantages and disadvantages, but at least it's familiar and heavily used UI
>>> * Discourse: it's an asynchronous communication tool, but that may
>>> acceptable or preferable, and there is already a Haskell Discourse set up (
>>> https://discourse.haskell.org/)
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:59 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:
>>>
 Carter Schonwald  writes:

 > I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.
 >
 > What are some example vibrant  technical communities on matrix? I’ve
 > experienced such on irc but less so via more recent / newer platforms
 >
 I know that many subcommunities within the Rust community use Matrix. I
 have had quite good interactions in this context. Frankly I think that
 most of these newer options are technically much more conducive to
 technical collaboration than IRC.

 Cheers,

 - Ben

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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Carter Schonwald]

I’ll try again.

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 10:26 PM Mario Carneiro 
wrote:

> Speaking as a *heavy* user of the Rust and Lean zulip instances, I find it
> a huge improvement over the alternatives of Gitter and Discord, and I think
> IRC although I have not used IRC much. It takes some getting used to, but
> the topic threading is absolutely essential once you reach a certain size.
> Looking at other chat platforms, overlapping conversations are a major
> problem when you have more than around 10 people online at once. Rust
> routinely has 50 or more online at once, and channels help but even then
> you will have multiple topics in a single channel, and that extra level of
> organization is absolutely warranted. It also helps when you want to look
> back at the discussion (or even just find it again!) or continue an old
> conversation from a year ago. Most of these activities I couldn't even
> imagine doing in a Gitter/Discord style chat platform.
>
> I have no stake in this discussion, but I thought I should balance out the
> Zulip downvotes with some positive experiences. (Also, I would definitely
> be more likely to participate on a haskell Zulip than an IRC or Matrix
> instance, FWIW.)
>
>
> Mario Carneiro
>
> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:58 PM Carter Schonwald <
> carter.schonw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I definitely find Zulip confusing and have failed to use it every time
>> I’ve tried
>>
>> If normal threading is lasagna layers, Zulip threading is like trying to
>> hold cooked spaghetti in your ha d.
>>
>> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 2:40 PM Alex Rozenshteyn 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> (I'm a little ashamed that I lurk on this list but the thing that brings
>>> me out of lurking is a post on communication technologies)
>>>
>>> Not Zulip.
>>>
>>> Please not Zulip.
>>>
>>> I've used Zulip once many years ago, and once this year. Both times, its
>>> interface felt clunky, and it felt like it was trying to get the best of
>>> IRC, Slack, and a BBS and instead getting the worst of all the worlds.
>>> Synchronous communication was confusing, asynchronous communication was
>>> limited, and topics and channels didn't really do anything to organize
>>> things.
>>>
>>> I have two alternatives to add to consideration:
>>> * Mattermost: it's an open-source clone of Slack, which has its
>>> advantages and disadvantages, but at least it's familiar and heavily used UI
>>> * Discourse: it's an asynchronous communication tool, but that may
>>> acceptable or preferable, and there is already a Haskell Discourse set up (
>>> https://discourse.haskell.org/)
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 11:59 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:
>>>
 Carter Schonwald  writes:

 > I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.
 >
 > What are some example vibrant  technical communities on matrix? I’ve
 > experienced such on irc but less so via more recent / newer platforms
 >
 I know that many subcommunities within the Rust community use Matrix. I
 have had quite good interactions in this context. Frankly I think that
 most of these newer options are technically much more conducive to
 technical collaboration than IRC.

 Cheers,

 - Ben

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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Jens Petersen]

My vote goes for Matrix.

I am not a heavy user yet, but I hope this episode helps to drive more
people to it away from irc.
Having half the people on Freenode and the other half on Libera seems the
worst possible outcome in the short- to mid-term.
The Fedora project also has plans to move to Matrix as its main group chat
messaging platform.

Jens
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Moritz Angermann]

Fair point. From a view over the last few days, I’d say it’s closer to 100%
on libera. Lots of people just switched. Quite surprising.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 at 7:14 PM, Jens Petersen  wrote:

> My vote goes for Matrix.
>
> I am not a heavy user yet, but I hope this episode helps to drive more
> people to it away from irc.
> Having half the people on Freenode and the other half on Libera seems the
> worst possible outcome in the short- to mid-term.
> The Fedora project also has plans to move to Matrix as its main group chat
> messaging platform.
>
> Jens
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Iavor Diatchki]

Hello,

I am not a heavy IRC user, but I'd say it makes most sense to just use
Libera.  It is essentially the same people that were running free-node
running pretty much the exact same service, and I believe they are trying
to make it extra easy to just switch, so this should be the least effort
transition.

I believe IRC has served the GHC community quite well so far, and there is
a reddit post by Ed Kmett that the normal Haskell channels have already
been transitioned over, so I think it makes sense for GHC to stick with the
rest of the Haskell community.

-Iavor





On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 4:38 AM Moritz Angermann 
wrote:

> Fair point. From a view over the last few days, I’d say it’s closer to
> 100% on libera. Lots of people just switched. Quite surprising.
>
> On Fri, 21 May 2021 at 7:14 PM, Jens Petersen 
> wrote:
>
>> My vote goes for Matrix.
>>
>> I am not a heavy user yet, but I hope this episode helps to drive more
>> people to it away from irc.
>> Having half the people on Freenode and the other half on Libera seems the
>> worst possible outcome in the short- to mid-term.
>> The Fedora project also has plans to move to Matrix as its main group
>> chat messaging platform.
>>
>> Jens
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Ben Gamari]

Iavor Diatchki  writes:

> Hello,
>
> I am not a heavy IRC user, but I'd say it makes most sense to just use
> Libera.  It is essentially the same people that were running free-node
> running pretty much the exact same service, and I believe they are trying
> to make it extra easy to just switch, so this should be the least effort
> transition.
>
> I believe IRC has served the GHC community quite well so far, and there is
> a reddit post by Ed Kmett that the normal Haskell channels have already
> been transitioned over, so I think it makes sense for GHC to stick with the
> rest of the Haskell community.
>
The problem is that, in order to grow (or even merely not to shrink),
the community also needs to adapt to the preferences of younger users.

The fact of the matter is the younger users tend to be, at best,
unfamiliar with IRC. In the worst case, the need to leave a browser/sign
up for a new account means that they simply won't participate. Of the
new contributors I have had approach me in the past year, less than half
have had any familiarity with IRC.

Matrix has the advantage of being accessible to "web-native" community
members while being open enough to (at least in principle) allow
community members who are accustomed to IRC to continue to participate
via a bridge.

Cheers,

- Ben


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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Iavor Diatchki]

As I said, I am not a heavy IRC user, for my online chatting needs I mostly
use Mattermost, Discord, and Slack.So I don't have an informed opinion
on the technical merits of the various platforms---mostly I've heard that
the Matrix clients and servers are quite a bit less robust than IRC ones
but I've never personally used them.

If there is a feeling that GHC wants to use a new chatting platform, by all
means we should try it out.  I just don't think that the unfortunate
situation with free-node is a good reason to drop IRC entirely.   Despite
its flows, I think it has served our community well, and while it may look
"old" to "young" users it does have the benefit of being pretty stable,
unlike the myriad of chatting services that seem to be popping up all the
time.

-Iavor



On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:41 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:

> Iavor Diatchki  writes:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am not a heavy IRC user, but I'd say it makes most sense to just use
> > Libera.  It is essentially the same people that were running free-node
> > running pretty much the exact same service, and I believe they are trying
> > to make it extra easy to just switch, so this should be the least effort
> > transition.
> >
> > I believe IRC has served the GHC community quite well so far, and there
> is
> > a reddit post by Ed Kmett that the normal Haskell channels have already
> > been transitioned over, so I think it makes sense for GHC to stick with
> the
> > rest of the Haskell community.
> >
> The problem is that, in order to grow (or even merely not to shrink),
> the community also needs to adapt to the preferences of younger users.
>
> The fact of the matter is the younger users tend to be, at best,
> unfamiliar with IRC. In the worst case, the need to leave a browser/sign
> up for a new account means that they simply won't participate. Of the
> new contributors I have had approach me in the past year, less than half
> have had any familiarity with IRC.
>
> Matrix has the advantage of being accessible to "web-native" community
> members while being open enough to (at least in principle) allow
> community members who are accustomed to IRC to continue to participate
> via a bridge.
>
> Cheers,
>
> - Ben
>
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Imants Cekusins]

Was this a temporary issue with Freenode IRC, resolved by now?

https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Chris Smith]

No, unfortunately, this is not resolved.  The link here is a fictitious
whitewash of events posted by the person who conducted the hostile takeover
of Freenode.  At the moment, the state of Freenode is that it's still
operating as an IRC network, but the volunteer staff who have operated the
network for many years have resigned and at least many of them have moved
to operating irc.libera.chat.  The network is completely controlled by one
person, who wasn't involved in running it at all until a few days ago.

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 2:31 AM Imants Cekusins  wrote:

> Was this a temporary issue with Freenode IRC, resolved by now?
>
> https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Shivam Gupta]

LLVM uses discord and it works fine.

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 7:12 PM Chris Smith  wrote:

> No, unfortunately, this is not resolved.  The link here is a fictitious
> whitewash of events posted by the person who conducted the hostile takeover
> of Freenode.  At the moment, the state of Freenode is that it's still
> operating as an IRC network, but the volunteer staff who have operated the
> network for many years have resigned and at least many of them have moved
> to operating irc.libera.chat.  The network is completely controlled by one
> person, who wasn't involved in running it at all until a few days ago.
>
> On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 2:31 AM Imants Cekusins  wrote:
>
>> Was this a temporary issue with Freenode IRC, resolved by now?
>>
>> https://freenode.net/news/freenode-is-foss
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[John Ericson]

As Ben and others say, Matrix provides many modern features new users 
will expect, while preserving the spirit of IRC. Without wading into the 
details, the design of Matrix I find impressive and to my liking, and it 
has seemed to get steadily better over time for quite a while now.


Re Zulip, in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27202838 one of the 
lead Matrix devs says their up-and-coming threading model aims to 
support what Zulip does and they've been discussing deeper integration 
with Zulip. Granted, It would be better to hear about those discussions 
from the Zulip side as Matrix aims to assimilate everything and Zulip 
could have some reservations, but I remain hopeful. (I certainly would 
like to see culled the current explosion of mutually-incompatible chat 
applications, leaving us with fewer protocols but as many competing 
implementations.)


What I recommend for now that we make some official Matrix channels, but 
also bridge them with the libera.chat ones once the bridge is up (should 
be a few days). Creating a matrix room and bridging it is a bit 
different underneath the hood than using a channel generated by the 
bridge on demand. We can give them nice names on the matrix side, and 
basically keep both options open of being "IRC-first" or "Matrix-first" 
down the road.


For reference, see 
https://matrix.to/#/#community:nixos.org?via=nixos.org which is the 
Matrix "Space" (room that is a directory of sub-rooms, filling the role 
of a Discord "server") that Nix community created while they debate what 
to do next. See also https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/94 where this 
same discussion is playing out.


John

On 5/21/21 4:00 PM, Iavor Diatchki wrote:
As I said, I am not a heavy IRC user, for my online chatting needs I 
mostly use Mattermost, Discord, and Slack. So I don't have an informed 
opinion on the technical merits of the various platforms---mostly I've 
heard that the Matrix clients and servers are quite a bit less robust 
than IRC ones but I've never personally used them.


If there is a feeling that GHC wants to use a new chatting platform, 
by all means we should try it out.  I just don't think that the 
unfortunate situation with free-node is a good reason to drop IRC 
entirely.   Despite its flows, I think it has served our community 
well, and while it may look "old" to "young" users it does have the 
benefit of being pretty stable, unlike the myriad of chatting services 
that seem to be popping up all the time.


-Iavor



On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:41 AM Ben Gamari > wrote:


Iavor Diatchki mailto:iavor.diatc...@gmail.com>> writes:

> Hello,
>
> I am not a heavy IRC user, but I'd say it makes most sense to
just use
> Libera.  It is essentially the same people that were running
free-node
> running pretty much the exact same service, and I believe they
are trying
> to make it extra easy to just switch, so this should be the
least effort
> transition.
>
> I believe IRC has served the GHC community quite well so far,
and there is
> a reddit post by Ed Kmett that the normal Haskell channels have
already
> been transitioned over, so I think it makes sense for GHC to
stick with the
> rest of the Haskell community.
>
The problem is that, in order to grow (or even merely not to shrink),
the community also needs to adapt to the preferences of younger users.

The fact of the matter is the younger users tend to be, at best,
unfamiliar with IRC. In the worst case, the need to leave a
browser/sign
up for a new account means that they simply won't participate. Of the
new contributors I have had approach me in the past year, less
than half
have had any familiarity with IRC.

Matrix has the advantage of being accessible to "web-native" community
members while being open enough to (at least in principle) allow
community members who are accustomed to IRC to continue to participate
via a bridge.

Cheers,

- Ben


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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Matthew Pickering]

I have been trying out Matrix a bit recently. It seems the best of the
options in my opinion and has the advantage of being able to bridge to
IRC (and other platforms).

The NixOS community rapidly moved over without any ill effects after
the demise of freenode.

As with all these things, who feels willing to make a decision for us?

Cheers,

Matt

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 7:52 PM John Ericson
 wrote:
>
> As Ben and others say, Matrix provides many modern features new users will 
> expect, while preserving the spirit of IRC. Without wading into the details, 
> the design of Matrix I find impressive and to my liking, and it has seemed to 
> get steadily better over time for quite a while now.
>
> Re Zulip, in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27202838 one of the lead 
> Matrix devs says their up-and-coming threading model aims to support what 
> Zulip does and they've been discussing deeper integration with Zulip. 
> Granted, It would be better to hear about those discussions from the Zulip 
> side as Matrix aims to assimilate everything and Zulip could have some 
> reservations, but I remain hopeful. (I certainly would like to see culled the 
> current explosion of mutually-incompatible chat applications, leaving us with 
> fewer protocols but as many competing implementations.)
>
> What I recommend for now that we make some official Matrix channels, but also 
> bridge them with the libera.chat ones once the bridge is up (should be a few 
> days). Creating a matrix room and bridging it is a bit different underneath 
> the hood than using a channel generated by the bridge on demand. We can give 
> them nice names on the matrix side, and basically keep both options open of 
> being "IRC-first" or "Matrix-first" down the road.
>
> For reference, see https://matrix.to/#/#community:nixos.org?via=nixos.org 
> which is the Matrix "Space" (room that is a directory of sub-rooms, filling 
> the role of a Discord "server") that Nix community created while they debate 
> what to do next. See also https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/94 where this 
> same discussion is playing out.
>
> John
>
> On 5/21/21 4:00 PM, Iavor Diatchki wrote:
>
> As I said, I am not a heavy IRC user, for my online chatting needs I mostly 
> use Mattermost, Discord, and Slack.So I don't have an informed opinion on 
> the technical merits of the various platforms---mostly I've heard that the 
> Matrix clients and servers are quite a bit less robust than IRC ones but I've 
> never personally used them.
>
> If there is a feeling that GHC wants to use a new chatting platform, by all 
> means we should try it out.  I just don't think that the unfortunate 
> situation with free-node is a good reason to drop IRC entirely.   Despite its 
> flows, I think it has served our community well, and while it may look "old" 
> to "young" users it does have the benefit of being pretty stable, unlike the 
> myriad of chatting services that seem to be popping up all the time.
>
> -Iavor
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:41 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:
>>
>> Iavor Diatchki  writes:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I am not a heavy IRC user, but I'd say it makes most sense to just use
>> > Libera.  It is essentially the same people that were running free-node
>> > running pretty much the exact same service, and I believe they are trying
>> > to make it extra easy to just switch, so this should be the least effort
>> > transition.
>> >
>> > I believe IRC has served the GHC community quite well so far, and there is
>> > a reddit post by Ed Kmett that the normal Haskell channels have already
>> > been transitioned over, so I think it makes sense for GHC to stick with the
>> > rest of the Haskell community.
>> >
>> The problem is that, in order to grow (or even merely not to shrink),
>> the community also needs to adapt to the preferences of younger users.
>>
>> The fact of the matter is the younger users tend to be, at best,
>> unfamiliar with IRC. In the worst case, the need to leave a browser/sign
>> up for a new account means that they simply won't participate. Of the
>> new contributors I have had approach me in the past year, less than half
>> have had any familiarity with IRC.
>>
>> Matrix has the advantage of being accessible to "web-native" community
>> members while being open enough to (at least in principle) allow
>> community members who are accustomed to IRC to continue to participate
>> via a bridge.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> - Ben
>
>
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[John Ericson]

The libera.chat IRC bridge is up, so one can go to #ghc:libera.chat to 
give the bridging a spin.


To make my recommendation from before more concrete, we would *not* use 
that "portal room" (one spawned on demand by the bridge), but instead 
make a #ghc:haskell.org. One should be able to then "tombstone" the 
portal room telling people to go to the manually-bridged instead, which 
can preserve history across bridging changes like e.g. libera.chat and 
Freenode are reunited later, adding slack/discord bridges, etc.


John

On 6/3/21 3:52 AM, Matthew Pickering wrote:

I have been trying out Matrix a bit recently. It seems the best of the
options in my opinion and has the advantage of being able to bridge to
IRC (and other platforms).

The NixOS community rapidly moved over without any ill effects after
the demise of freenode.

As with all these things, who feels willing to make a decision for us?

Cheers,

Matt

On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 7:52 PM John Ericson
 wrote:

As Ben and others say, Matrix provides many modern features new users will 
expect, while preserving the spirit of IRC. Without wading into the details, 
the design of Matrix I find impressive and to my liking, and it has seemed to 
get steadily better over time for quite a while now.

Re Zulip, in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27202838 one of the lead 
Matrix devs says their up-and-coming threading model aims to support what Zulip 
does and they've been discussing deeper integration with Zulip. Granted, It 
would be better to hear about those discussions from the Zulip side as Matrix 
aims to assimilate everything and Zulip could have some reservations, but I 
remain hopeful. (I certainly would like to see culled the current explosion of 
mutually-incompatible chat applications, leaving us with fewer protocols but as 
many competing implementations.)

What I recommend for now that we make some official Matrix channels, but also bridge them with the 
libera.chat ones once the bridge is up (should be a few days). Creating a matrix room and bridging 
it is a bit different underneath the hood than using a channel generated by the bridge on demand. 
We can give them nice names on the matrix side, and basically keep both options open of being 
"IRC-first" or "Matrix-first" down the road.

For reference, see https://matrix.to/#/#community:nixos.org?via=nixos.org which is the Matrix 
"Space" (room that is a directory of sub-rooms, filling the role of a Discord 
"server") that Nix community created while they debate what to do next. See also 
https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/94 where this same discussion is playing out.

John

On 5/21/21 4:00 PM, Iavor Diatchki wrote:

As I said, I am not a heavy IRC user, for my online chatting needs I mostly use 
Mattermost, Discord, and Slack.So I don't have an informed opinion on the 
technical merits of the various platforms---mostly I've heard that the Matrix 
clients and servers are quite a bit less robust than IRC ones but I've never 
personally used them.

If there is a feeling that GHC wants to use a new chatting platform, by all means we should try it 
out.  I just don't think that the unfortunate situation with free-node is a good reason to drop IRC 
entirely.   Despite its flows, I think it has served our community well, and while it may look 
"old" to "young" users it does have the benefit of being pretty stable, unlike 
the myriad of chatting services that seem to be popping up all the time.

-Iavor



On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 10:41 AM Ben Gamari  wrote:

Iavor Diatchki  writes:


Hello,

I am not a heavy IRC user, but I'd say it makes most sense to just use
Libera.  It is essentially the same people that were running free-node
running pretty much the exact same service, and I believe they are trying
to make it extra easy to just switch, so this should be the least effort
transition.

I believe IRC has served the GHC community quite well so far, and there is
a reddit post by Ed Kmett that the normal Haskell channels have already
been transitioned over, so I think it makes sense for GHC to stick with the
rest of the Haskell community.


The problem is that, in order to grow (or even merely not to shrink),
the community also needs to adapt to the preferences of younger users.

The fact of the matter is the younger users tend to be, at best,
unfamiliar with IRC. In the worst case, the need to leave a browser/sign
up for a new account means that they simply won't participate. Of the
new contributors I have had approach me in the past year, less than half
have had any familiarity with IRC.

Matrix has the advantage of being accessible to "web-native" community
members while being open enough to (at least in principle) allow
community members who are accustomed to IRC to continue to participate
via a bridge.

Cheers,

- Ben


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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Viktor Dukhovni]

On 19 May 2021, at 11:48 am, Carter Schonwald  
wrote:

> I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera. 

Perhaps I'm too much of an IRC noob, but I still found it it rather
surprising to be banned from libera.chat (my IP is blacklisted) for
pasting a 25-line build script for building GHC via hadrian on FreeBSD
into the #ghc channel.

This was in response to a discussion about issues with the bindist,
how the port is built, ... and while perhaps I'm expected to use a
paste bin, the abrupt ban was rather a harsh response.

The ban appears to have been "temporary", an hour or so later I am
able to reconnect, but this does not leave a good impression.

-- 
Viktor.
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Brandon Allbery]

Pasting directly into the channel is generally a no-no on IRC. Things like
Matrix or IRCCloud convert to pastebins automatically.

On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 2:07 PM Viktor Dukhovni 
wrote:

> On 19 May 2021, at 11:48 am, Carter Schonwald 
> wrote:
>
> > I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.
>
> Perhaps I'm too much of an IRC noob, but I still found it it rather
> surprising to be banned from libera.chat (my IP is blacklisted) for
> pasting a 25-line build script for building GHC via hadrian on FreeBSD
> into the #ghc channel.
>
> This was in response to a discussion about issues with the bindist,
> how the port is built, ... and while perhaps I'm expected to use a
> paste bin, the abrupt ban was rather a harsh response.
>
> The ban appears to have been "temporary", an hour or so later I am
> able to reconnect, but this does not leave a good impression.
>
> --
> Viktor.
> ___
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> ghc-devs@haskell.org
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>


-- 
brandon s allbery kf8nh
allber...@gmail.com
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Chris Smith]

Viktor,

Sorry you had a bad experience.  Perhaps it will help to know that these
bans are automatically done by bots to prevent the channel from being
flooded by nefarious users.  That you were caught by it was just a
false positive because you triggered the flooding detection.  It doesn't
mean anyone was upset at you or didn't want to talk to you.  When I've seen
it happen in #haskell in the past, the person involved has been able to
immediately rejoin and resume the conversation.

Chris

On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 2:08 PM Viktor Dukhovni 
wrote:

> On 19 May 2021, at 11:48 am, Carter Schonwald 
> wrote:
>
> > I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.
>
> Perhaps I'm too much of an IRC noob, but I still found it it rather
> surprising to be banned from libera.chat (my IP is blacklisted) for
> pasting a 25-line build script for building GHC via hadrian on FreeBSD
> into the #ghc channel.
>
> This was in response to a discussion about issues with the bindist,
> how the port is built, ... and while perhaps I'm expected to use a
> paste bin, the abrupt ban was rather a harsh response.
>
> The ban appears to have been "temporary", an hour or so later I am
> able to reconnect, but this does not leave a good impression.
>
> --
> Viktor.
> ___
> ghc-devs mailing list
> ghc-devs@haskell.org
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs
>
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[John Ericson]

And this is a good example of how both using libera.chat and having an 
official matrix bridge with a nice name can help more people use IRC too!


On 6/6/21 2:10 PM, Brandon Allbery wrote:
Pasting directly into the channel is generally a no-no on IRC. Things 
like Matrix or IRCCloud convert to pastebins automatically.


On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 2:07 PM Viktor Dukhovni > wrote:


On 19 May 2021, at 11:48 am, Carter Schonwald
mailto:carter.schonw...@gmail.com>>
wrote:

> I personally vote for irc.  Perhaps via Libera.

Perhaps I'm too much of an IRC noob, but I still found it it rather
surprising to be banned from libera.chat (my IP is blacklisted) for
pasting a 25-line build script for building GHC via hadrian on FreeBSD
into the #ghc channel.

This was in response to a discussion about issues with the bindist,
how the port is built, ... and while perhaps I'm expected to use a
paste bin, the abrupt ban was rather a harsh response.

The ban appears to have been "temporary", an hour or so later I am
able to reconnect, but this does not leave a good impression.

-- 
        Viktor.

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--
brandon s allbery kf8nh
allber...@gmail.com 

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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Janek Stolarek]

Apparently, Freenode deleted all registered users and channels several hours 
ago:

https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/o0263h/all_freenode_channels_and_users_gone/

A more detailed explanation/speculation on what's goin on:

https://www.devever.net/~hl/freenode_suicide

Janek
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Re: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Jakub Zalewski]

On Tue Jun 15, 2021 at 3:18 PM CEST, Janek Stolarek wrote:
> Apparently, Freenode deleted all registered users and channels several
> hours ago.

I guess that should solve the problem of communities being split between
Freenode and Libera.

If I may add towards using IRC, even though it may seem archaic towards
newcomers:

- it allows them to join without registration (via web.libera.chat), and
- it allows them to use a client of their choosing (I am not aware of
  any stable Matrix clients beside Element).

From my own experience, Electron-based clients (Element included)
consume unreasonable amounts of RAM:  Element is consuming ~700MiB of
RAM just to stay idle on my machine.  To give a fair comparison, the tab
for irccloud tends to consume ~300MiB.

-- 
Jakub
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Re[2]: GHC and the future of Freenode

[Sebastian Graf]

Re: memory usage: I get that people don't like bloated Electron clients 
when they already run a browser instance, but fortunately, Element 
doesn't need to be run as a standalone app (*).
Well, except when you want to search encrypted history. But then you're 
out of luck with irccloud, too...


I run Element in a pinned Firefox tab, and according to its task manager 
it reports 27.4MB, which is about the same for my WhatsApp tab. It's a 
bit more than irccloud (about 20MB), but I also have quite a few chats 
in that one tab. It's also quite a lot less than every individual MR 
page of our GitLab instance (27-110MB), of which I have pinned about 
5-10 at any time, so it really doesn't matter much.


Since the Matrix<->Libera.chat bridge works now, I have next to no 
incentive to push for Matrix at the moment, although I still would 
prefer it.
All arguments have been said, so I won't repeat them. It seems like this 
discussion will go stale in time without anyone stepping up to force a 
migration. Fine with me.


Sebastian

-- Originalnachricht --
Von: "Jakub Zalewski" 
An: "Janek Stolarek" ; ghc-devs@haskell.org
Gesendet: 16.06.2021 17:02:28
Betreff: Re: GHC and the future of Freenode


On Tue Jun 15, 2021 at 3:18 PM CEST, Janek Stolarek wrote:

 Apparently, Freenode deleted all registered users and channels several
 hours ago.


I guess that should solve the problem of communities being split between
Freenode and Libera.

If I may add towards using IRC, even though it may seem archaic towards
newcomers:

- it allows them to join without registration (via web.libera.chat), and
- it allows them to use a client of their choosing (I am not aware of
  any stable Matrix clients beside Element).

From my own experience, Electron-based clients (Element included)
consume unreasonable amounts of RAM:  Element is consuming ~700MiB of
RAM just to stay idle on my machine.  To give a fair comparison, the tab
for irccloud tends to consume ~300MiB.

--
Jakub
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