Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages

[Paul Lussier]

"Ben Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 6/4/06, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> ... 150 MHz Pentium ... 40MB RAM ... Some of my son's friends
>> have decided to learn Java this summer ...
>
>   Be warned that Java may be unbearably slow on that system.  (Given
> that it's irritatingly slow on much newer systems.)

By what measurement do you determine that Java is slow, and compared
to what?  Is it slower for developement, or just running it?  Is it
slow compared to C, or Lisp, or Visual Basic?  Are you doing systems
programming with it or distributed systems application development?

To say X is slow is not only misleading, but actually a useless and
baseless charge without any context or reference.

-- 
Seeya,
Paul
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Speed of Java (was: Linux on old laptop in two stages)

[Ben Scott]

On 6/5/06, Paul Lussier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  Be warned that Java may be unbearably slow on that system.  (Given
that it's irritatingly slow on much newer systems.)


By what measurement do you determine that Java is slow ...


 My measurement is qualitative, not quantitative.  Everything that
uses Java that I've ever encountered on any machine takes a long time
to start and uses up gobs and gobs of memory, regardless of how
trivial the program.  Interactive programs all have a somewhat
unresponsive UI, and go non-responsive for seconds at a time at
seemingly random intervals.

 IME.  YMMV.  FWIW.  HAND.


... and compared to what?


 Compared to molasses crawling backwards uphill in January.  ;-)

 Okay, that one might not be all that scientific.  ;-)


Is it slower for developement, or just running it?


 Running software in the JVM/JRE.  It could be that compiling
Java-source to Java-bytecode is fast and low-memory; I wouldn't know.

-- Ben
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Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages

[Peggy Harris]

Oh... and as a side note...  I'm encouraged that there are four or five 
14-year olds who want to learn more about Linux and Java, so I'd like to try 
to support them as much as possible...  I've actually got a second old 
laptop (Toshiba Satellite Pro, Pentium MMX processor, 80 MB RAM with 1.34 GB 
hard drive) that I'm hoping I can also make useful for one of these kids to 
experiment with this summer, if possible.


Peg


- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Tech Writer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "GNHLUG User Group" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages



Ubuntu is a great desktop Linux distro, but I'd suspect it's not going
to perform nicely on an older laptop like that.  There's a new
"Xubuntu" derivative that is using Xfce windowing for older hardware,
will supposedly give you the best of both worlds -- light weight
distro with the Ubuntu elan and bug-fixes, but optimized for (and
packages selected for) Win95/Win98 era hardware. If and when I reclaim
an old Win98 box here, I'll try Xubuntu and "Damn Small Linux",
Vector, Puppy.

A review of other distros for old hardware was recently posted
http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/02/13/1854251
and you can get more information on the individual distros at
 http://distrowatch.com/

The installation steps vary depending just HOW old your hardware is.
Most Gnu/Linux Distros install from a bootable CDrom. If you can set
the BIOS to boot from the CDrom, you can install straight from the CD.
(When booting, there's probably a message that flashes by early on
that says something about hit some F-key (possibly in combination) to
adjust/edit BIOS or CMOS or boot options. Just be sure the CD is
before the hard-drive in boot order. And follow instructions on how to
save before exiting setup. And don't change anything you don't need
to.)

If your old laptop can't boot from CDrom, you'll need either a
runs-from-DOS installer or a boot-CD mini-installer, same as for
Windows-98.  Some distros have one, some the other, some may not
support either.

Good luck,

--
Bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages

[Peggy Harris]

Thanks for the feedback  I'm assuming that it won't boot off the CD, 
since I remember the complicated way I had to get Windows on it way back 
when I actively used this machine.  But, I'll try the kit I just built and 
let you know.  Also, I appreciate the pointer to the distributions that work 
well on old machines...  I think I may try DSL once I figure out the best 
way to get this system loaded.


Peg

- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Tech Writer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "GNHLUG User Group" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages



Ubuntu is a great desktop Linux distro, but I'd suspect it's not going
to perform nicely on an older laptop like that.  There's a new
"Xubuntu" derivative that is using Xfce windowing for older hardware,
will supposedly give you the best of both worlds -- light weight
distro with the Ubuntu elan and bug-fixes, but optimized for (and
packages selected for) Win95/Win98 era hardware. If and when I reclaim
an old Win98 box here, I'll try Xubuntu and "Damn Small Linux",
Vector, Puppy.

A review of other distros for old hardware was recently posted
http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/02/13/1854251
and you can get more information on the individual distros at
 http://distrowatch.com/

The installation steps vary depending just HOW old your hardware is.
Most Gnu/Linux Distros install from a bootable CDrom. If you can set
the BIOS to boot from the CDrom, you can install straight from the CD.
(When booting, there's probably a message that flashes by early on
that says something about hit some F-key (possibly in combination) to
adjust/edit BIOS or CMOS or boot options. Just be sure the CD is
before the hard-drive in boot order. And follow instructions on how to
save before exiting setup. And don't change anything you don't need
to.)

If your old laptop can't boot from CDrom, you'll need either a
runs-from-DOS installer or a boot-CD mini-installer, same as for
Windows-98.  Some distros have one, some the other, some may not
support either.

Good luck,

--
Bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages

[Neil Schelly]

On Monday 05 June 2006 08:35 am, Paul Lussier wrote:
> By what measurement do you determine that Java is slow, and compared
> to what?  Is it slower for developement, or just running it?  Is it
> slow compared to C, or Lisp, or Visual Basic?  Are you doing systems
> programming with it or distributed systems application development?
>
> To say X is slow is not only misleading, but actually a useless and
> baseless charge without any context or reference.

I'm guessing he says it's slow to use.  And no, it's not that Java is slow... 
but that everything you need to run Java is slow.  I always hear people 
complain that Java isn't slow anymore, but have yet to see it.  I don't run 
the most modern hardware these days, but it was fast a few years ago and I 
hate whenever I get around to starting up a Java applet or something or 
other.  The JVM takes forever to load and everything else will run dog slow 
while it is there.

I may be wrong and maybe I'm just an idiot when it comes to running my own 
systems...  but I get a little annoyed when every time this topic comes up, 
someone chimes in and says Java isn't slow without providing any pointer to 
the apparently simple option I must be missing that makes a JVM kick into 
gear and run like other stuff.  It has its merits, but speed never has been 
one of them.
-N
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Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages

[Tom Buskey]

On 6/4/06, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:








I've got an old Gateway Solo 2100 laptop with 150 MHz 
Pentium processor, 40MB RAM and 1.34 GB hard vdrive.  It's been sitting in the corner 
collecting dust, and still contains Windows-98.  Some of my son's friends have decided to 
learn Java this summer, so I was hoping I could install a "small" Linux on this, 
and let them use it as a test system.Hmm, I used to run Mandrake 7.2/Redhat 7.x on a P150 w/ 80MB and 1.3GB.  I was able to use a cable to get the floppy to boot 1st and then  use the CD.
If it can boot from CD, you're all set.  You could try an NFS or FTP install.  You need a machine to serve NFS/FTP though.

Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages

[Dan Jenkins]

Peggy Harris wrote:

Thanks for the feedback  I'm assuming that it won't boot off the 
CD, since I remember the complicated way I had to get Windows on it 
way back when I actively used this machine.  But, I'll try the kit I 
just built and let you know.  Also, I appreciate the pointer to the 
distributions that work well on old machines...  I think I may try DSL 
once I figure out the best way to get this system loaded.


Another option, which I've used in a past similar circumstance, was to 
remove the hard drive from the laptop, connect it to a standard desktop 
using a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adaptor, install on the desktop, reinstall the 
harddrive back in the laptop and then redetect the hardware 
configuration there.


--
Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951
*** Technical Support for over a Quarter Century

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Monadnock Linux User Group - June 8th

[guy Pardoe]

The next meeting of the Monadnock Linux User Group (MonadLUG) will be this
Thursday, June 8th, 7:00pm, at the SAU 1 Superintendent's Office behind
South Meadow School in Peterborough.

For directions and other information, visit
 http://wiki.gnhlug.org/twiki2/bin/view/Www/MonadLUG



 AGENDA 

1.  Announcements.

2.  Tim Lind presents on AsteriskT - the Open Source PBX!

Asterisk is a complete PBX in software. It runs on Linux, BSD and MacOSX and
provides all of the features you would expect from a PBX and more. Asterisk
does voice over IP in many protocols, and can interoperate with almost all
standards-based telephony equipment using relatively inexpensive hardware.


*


We're also looking for topics for future meetings.  If you have a suggestion
or would like to present a topic yourself, please contact me at
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Please forward this announcement to anyone you think may be interested in
attending.

Thank you,

Guy Pardoe
MonadLUG Coordinator

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Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages

[Drew Van Zandt]

Context is unnecessary if, for example, Java is unbearably slow
compared to nearly everything.  The only things I've seen that are
slower than (aggregate of all Java apps I've seen and used) are e.g.
field simulators or modal analysis simulation tools... and since
they're doing a lot of hardcore math it's not unexpected.

I *am* a bit confused, however, since if I search for "Java benchmark"
I get lots of pages saying something along the lines of "Java used to
be slow but now it isn't."  Contrairwise, I personally use a few Java
applets for which I also have non-Java equivalents, and several of our
competitors have products similar to ours (but with beefier
processors) and run Java front ends... and in every case the Java
production code is much, much slower than the non-Java code.  (The
other code is, variously, in PHP, mod_perl, and C.)

I hear the peanut gallery waiting to say "but you can't compare
different apps/implementations" - bollocks I can't.  Toyotas and Fords
are wildly different implementations of objects of type "car", yet it
is both useful and accepted to make blanket statements about them.
:-)  You are welcome to disagree, but unless you plan on rewriting all
the Java apps that turn out to be slower than I expect them to be
based on my experiences with similar non-Java apps, you are unlikely
to change my opinion.

Flame away...

--DTVZ
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Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages

[Kevin D. Clark]

A lot of the claims to the effect of "Java is much faster nowadays"
are based on the fact that typical Java implementations nowadays
include much better JIT (Just In Time) compilers.  Translating an
application's interpreted Java bytecode into native machine code can
yield some very large performance gains.

I'm not sure what the current state of the art is with Java *applets*
is, however.  I wouldn't be surprised if these things did not get run
through the JIT compiler.

It is also very possible that JVM's that run on Windows are more
efficient than those that you typically see under Linux -- this is
where most of the brainpower in this space is concentrated.

YMMV.

--kevin
-- 
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alumni.unh.edu!kdc Is an epileptic fit
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Re: Speed of Java (was: Linux on old laptop in two stages)

[Ben Scott]

On 6/5/06, Kevin D. Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It is also very possible that JVM's that run on Windows are more
efficient than those that you typically see under Linux ...


 My personal experience is that the Sun Java VM is just as slow under
Windows as it is under Linux, so I don't think that's it.

 Again, FWIW, IME, IMO, YMMV, TLA, ETLA, TMA, etc.

-- Ben
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Re: Speed of Java (was: Linux on old laptop in two stages)

[Richard Soule]

Ben Scott wrote:

>  My measurement is qualitative, not quantitative.  Everything that
> uses Java that I've ever encountered on any machine takes a long time
> to start and uses up gobs and gobs of memory, regardless of how
> trivial the program.  Interactive programs all have a somewhat
> unresponsive UI, and go non-responsive for seconds at a time at
> seemingly random intervals.

I use Oracle JDeveloper (free as in beer: 
http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/index.html) quite a bit 
and I've not noticed the problems that you have other than taking a 
'long time' to start, maybe... Certainly no more than any other very 
large and  sophisticated IDE. JDeveloper is written in Java.


JDeveloper includes a code profiler that will help you write better Java 
code. When the developers finished the code profiler they ran the 
JDeveloper product code through the profiler and got a pretty noticeable 
improvement in performance.


There are more than 6000 Oracle Applications (Oracle Applications, 
Siebel, PeopleSoft, and a bunch of other companies we've acquired over 
the years) developers at Oracle who are using JDeveloper and they all 
want their tools to run fast. They wouldn't be happy with the kind of 
performance that you describe below.


Not only that, but the developers who write the other tools at Oracle 
(Portal, XML Publisher, BPEL Designer, etc.) all use JDeveloper, many on 
Linux.


My own personal experience:

I've got a 1.6GHz Pentium laptop with 2GB of ram and I'm able to run the 
below in quite a usable manner:


Windows XP Professional base operating system
VMWare image with the following:
Windows XP Professional OS
Oracle Enterprise Edition 10g
Oracle Application Server Enterprise Edition 10g
Oracle BPEL Process Manager
Oracle JDeveloper

That's a LOT of software to run on a 2GB machine.

I've also run JDeveloper on a Linux VM running X and didn't notice the 
kind of performance you are describing below.


JDeveloper is a great big huge Java program that you can download for 
free... Want to give it a try and let us know what you think?


Rich

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Re: Speed of Java (was: Linux on old laptop in two stages)

[Ben Scott]

On 6/5/06, Richard Soule <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I've got a 1.6GHz Pentium laptop with 2GB of ram and I'm able to run the
below in quite a usable manner:


 Keep in mind the context of the original post was a 100 MHz laptop
with 40 MB of RAM.  Your video subsystem prolly has more RAM then that
whole laptop.

 My own experience is mainly on PCs with 128 MB or 256 MB of RAM, in
the 1 GHz range.

 The fact that an IDE runs well on a machine with more RAM then the
capacity of my first four hard drives combined doesn't really impress
me much.  :-)


JDeveloper is a great big huge Java program that you can download for
free... Want to give it a try and let us know what you think?


 Not in the least.  :-)

-- Ben
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OT: Porkfest

[Jared Watkins]

I'll be going to the FSP Pork Fest event in a couple weeks...  driving 
up from Manchester.  Anyone else planning to be there?


Jared

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Re: OT: PorCfest

[Seth Cohn]

Me me me... and it's Porc Fest (as opposed to Ham Fest, aka Hosstraders)
as in Porcupine.

See you there!

Seth


On 6/5/06, Jared Watkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I'll be going to the FSP Pork Fest event in a couple weeks...  driving
up from Manchester.  Anyone else planning to be there?

Jared


--
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20K freedom activists all working toward self-responsibility
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Re: Speed of Java

[Paul Lussier]

"Ben Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On 6/5/06, Kevin D. Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> It is also very possible that JVM's that run on Windows are more
>> efficient than those that you typically see under Linux ...
>
>   My personal experience is that the Sun Java VM is just as slow under
> Windows as it is under Linux, so I don't think that's it.

We use the IBM JVm for our development of a distributed systems
application, and, while I'm not one of the developers, I've not heard
them complain about it being slow.  Actually, the reason we use the
IBM JVM is specifically because it's faster than the Sun JVM.

This is all on Debian, btw.

-- 
Seeya,
Paul
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Re: Speed of Java

[John Abreau]

Paul Lussier wrote:

> We use the IBM JVm for our development of a distributed systems
> application, and, while I'm not one of the developers, I've not heard
> them complain about it being slow.  Actually, the reason we use the
> IBM JVM is specifically because it's faster than the Sun JVM.
> 
> This is all on Debian, btw.

Last time I looked at IBM Jikes, which was a long time ago, it was
still based on Java 1.1.x. Is that still the case?  If so, aren't
there version compatibility issues when using third-party java code
that was written in the context of 1.4.x or 1.5.x?


-- 
John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
ICQ 28611923 / AIM abreauj / JABBER [EMAIL PROTECTED] / YAHOO abreauj
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0xD5C7B5D9
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Tech Writer]

Well.. to my surprise, I WAS able to boot from the CD.  I started up the 
Ubunu install, but it got caught up at:

 ACPI: Unable to locate RSDP

If I did my googling right, that means it can't find a "Root System 
Description Pointer" for the "Advanced Configuration & Power Interface"... 
which I'm guessing this system is too old to know about.  I found some 
reference to turning this off via a kernel parameter, but since I'm not yet 
installed, I can't figure out how to do that.  Unless someone has a 
suggestion on how to get past this, I think I'll try DSL next.


Peg

- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Tech Writer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "GNHLUG User Group" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages



Ubuntu is a great desktop Linux distro, but I'd suspect it's not going
to perform nicely on an older laptop like that.  There's a new
"Xubuntu" derivative that is using Xfce windowing for older hardware,
will supposedly give you the best of both worlds -- light weight
distro with the Ubuntu elan and bug-fixes, but optimized for (and
packages selected for) Win95/Win98 era hardware. If and when I reclaim
an old Win98 box here, I'll try Xubuntu and "Damn Small Linux",
Vector, Puppy.

A review of other distros for old hardware was recently posted
http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/02/13/1854251
and you can get more information on the individual distros at
 http://distrowatch.com/

The installation steps vary depending just HOW old your hardware is.
Most Gnu/Linux Distros install from a bootable CDrom. If you can set
the BIOS to boot from the CDrom, you can install straight from the CD.
(When booting, there's probably a message that flashes by early on
that says something about hit some F-key (possibly in combination) to
adjust/edit BIOS or CMOS or boot options. Just be sure the CD is
before the hard-drive in boot order. And follow instructions on how to
save before exiting setup. And don't change anything you don't need
to.)

If your old laptop can't boot from CDrom, you'll need either a
runs-from-DOS installer or a boot-CD mini-installer, same as for
Windows-98.  Some distros have one, some the other, some may not
support either.

Good luck,

--
Bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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Re: Liquid Cooling

[Andrew W. Gaunt]

I notice that Radio Shack is now carrying stock for 'case modder' geeks.
Among the inventory I saw today (Westford MA Radio Shack) are some
things for liquid cooling. I saw a heat exchanger with a mounted fan,
bottles of some kind of liquid for the cooling system and heatsinks etc.
They also have cables and fans with built in illumination to provide
additional load for your power supply.

It is interesting to look at. reminds me of those things I wanted
for my car when I was a kid; chrome plated air cleaners etc.

-Andrew Gaunt


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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Ben Scott]

On 6/5/06, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I started up the Ubunu install, but it got caught up at:
  ACPI: Unable to locate RSDP

If I did my googling right, that means ...


 Yah.  In short, ACPI isn't there or is really broken.  This is not unusual.

 What is ACPI, you ask?  It's a way for the OS to interface with
machine feature like resource configuration and power management.
Prior to ACPI, we had to deal with buggy BIOSes, broken
implementations of APM, and manufacturer-specific quirks.  With ACPI,
we have to deal with buggy BIOSes, broken implementations of ACPI,
manufacturer-specific quirks, and a bloated management framework.  I'm
told this is progress.


I found some reference to turning this off via a kernel parameter ...


 Yes.  I think the syntax is "acpi=off".


... but since I'm not yet installed, I can't figure out how to do that.


 When the CD first boots (within the first few seconds), is should
give you some kind of message about how to get more information, and
tell you to press [ENTER] to boot if you don't care.  You care.  There
should be an option to append kernel command line options.  This might
mean typing something like:

linux acpi=off

but the details are specific to each distribution and release.

-- Ben
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Re: Liquid Cooling

[Ben Scott]

On 6/5/06, Andrew W. Gaunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It is interesting to look at. reminds me of those things I wanted
for my car when I was a kid; chrome plated air cleaners etc.


 Same target market.

-- Ben
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Re: Speed of Java

[Paul Lussier]

John Abreau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Last time I looked at IBM Jikes, which was a long time ago, it was
> still based on Java 1.1.x. Is that still the case?

Not to my knowledge.  apt-cache search on one of our test systems shows:

$ apt-cache search ibm
ibm-java2-jre - IBM Java2 1.4.2 SR4-1 Java Runtime Environment.
ibm-java2-sdk - IBM Java2 1.4.2 SR4-1 Software Development Kit.


>  If so, aren't there version compatibility issues when using
> third-party java code that was written in the context of 1.4.x or
> 1.5.x?

Perhaps, but, as the doctor says, "If it hurts when you do that, don't
do that!"  So, we don't, I'm sure :)
-- 
Seeya,
Paul
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Paul Lussier]

"Ben Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> I found some reference to turning this off via a kernel parameter ...
>
>   Yes.  I think the syntax is "acpi=off".

We've got grub kernel params of 'noapic', is there also a noacpi?
A quick googling for noacpi yields 'pci=noacpi' references.
-- 
Seeya,
Paul
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Tom Buskey]

On 6/5/06, Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 6/5/06, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> I started up the Ubunu install, but it got caught up at:>   ACPI: Unable to locate RSDP>> If I did my googling right, that means ...
  Yah.  In short, ACPI isn't there or is really broken.  This is not unusual.My Fedora 4 system disables ACPI checking on a pre 1999 BIOS.  I imagine a P150 laptop is 1997 era.I'd say Ubuntu needs a much more modern system with more power/ram/disk.
What modern distributions will work well on P150 systems?Is it better to go retro w/ Redhat 7 era distributions?

Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Michael ODonnell]

Last place I worked we had some kernels that
(counterintuitively) needed to be booted with
both of these:

   noacpi acpi=off

...and "Didn't you mean noapic?" was definitely
an FAQ.

 
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Drew Van Zandt]

I've run Debian recently on a 586/133 (AMD of some sort?) with 64 MB
of RAM, and it was fine once I trimmed out a little of the extra
crud... in particular switching to a low-demand X window manager
helped.  I can't remember which I ended up using, unfortunately, but
it was based on googling for something pretty straightforward like "x
window manager embedded"

--DTVZ
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[John Abreau]

Drew Van Zandt wrote:
> I've run Debian recently on a 586/133 (AMD of some sort?) with 64 MB
> of RAM, and it was fine once I trimmed out a little of the extra
> crud... in particular switching to a low-demand X window manager
> helped.  I can't remember which I ended up using, unfortunately, but
> it was based on googling for something pretty straightforward like "x
> window manager embedded"
> 

Looks like Matchbox is the favorite embedded WM, according to google.

http://projects.o-hand.com/matchbox/


-- 
John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
ICQ 28611923 / AIM abreauj / JABBER [EMAIL PROTECTED] / YAHOO abreauj
Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0xD5C7B5D9
PGP-Key-Fingerprint 72 FB 39 4F 3C 3B D6 5B E0 C8 5A 6E F1 2C BE 99
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Bill Ricker]

CDrom boot works, excellent.

The "Xubuntu" CD is supposed to be better for old hardware than
Ubuntu, you could try that.  DSL will download quicker, it's *small*

--
Bill
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Ben Scott]

On 6/5/06, John Abreau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Looks like Matchbox is the favorite embedded WM, according to google.

http://projects.o-hand.com/matchbox/


 The screen shots seem to imply that it's designed for PDAs,
cellphones, and the like.  Might not be the best choice for a regular
PC (even an old one).

 There are more "traditional" WMs which have varying degrees of
lightweightness[1].  Anything from FVWM [2] to evilwm [3] might work.

Footnotes
-
[1] Not an actual word.
[2] http://www.fvwm.org
[3] http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/

-- Ben
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Java Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages

[Bill Ricker]

Yes, Java's recent speed comes from (a) JIT compilation (b) real
static native compilation with optimization (e.g., JRocket) (c)
running on really hot hardware.

(And I do mean hot ... the 3.7GHz chips have more Watts per square
inch than a hot plate! There's a reason you won't see commercial 4GHz
chips in volume production ...)

Applets running in a browser would be able to benefit from JIT if the
browser plugin includes that feature. I haven't checked to see if they
do.

But for learning Java, the speed may not matter as long as the program
(and debugger)  _runs_ .  Assuming they don't want to use
Commandline-only Linux, that probably mean Fluxbox or Xfce or one of
the other lightweight alternative desktops instead of heavyweight
Gnome and KDE, with a Distro optimized for old hardware (Xubuntu, DSL,
Puppy, Vector, ..).

I'm worried Eclipse won't fit on that laptop ... they'll may need to
learn commandline tools and standalone lightweight editors (but pick
one with syntax highlighting at least).

--
Bill
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Tech Writer]

I'm getting further with the Ubuntu CD boot onto my 
old Gateway 2000, but still not quite there...  Quick status for those of 
you who have provided feedback so far...
 
When the Ubuntu CD is booted up, there are five 
choices:  Start or install Ubuntu  Start Ubuntu in safe 
graphics mode  Check CD for defects  Memory test  
Boot from first hard diskWhile the "Start or install Ubuntu" is 
highlighted, I can press "F5 Accessibility", to see the boot options 
listed as follows:  Boot Options 
._size=1048576 root=/dev/ram rw quiet splash --I edited this to 
add acpi=off, and removed "quiet" (not sure what "splash" is).  The 
result is:
  Boot Options 
._size=1048576 root=/dev/ram acpi=off rw splash --I get further 
now...  I see a clean window with the ubuntu banner, and a status bar, 
followed by these messages:Loading essential 
drivers  
OKRunning 
./scripts/init-premount 
OKMounting root file system...Running 
./scripts/casper-premount    
OKRunning ./scripts/casper-bottomMoving mount 
points... 
OKAdding live CD userThen, the system seems to just start spinning 
the disk (lights for both CD and hard drive continue to randomly flash).  
This continues for a while, then the clean display disappears, 
and I get rough text spitting out boot messages, the last few 
being...Begin: Loading essential 
drivers...Done.Begin: Running /scripts/init-premount 
...Done.Begin:  Mounting root file system...  
...At this point, I just hear a lot of disk spinning 
for MANY  MANY minutes... then the screen clears, and still more disk 
spinning... but nothing appears to be happening...  eventually, it all just 
stops.   Fortunately, this is going on to the side of me, while I'm 
getting more productive work done elsewhere... otherwise, instead of being 
an interesting learning experience, this would pretty 
frustrating.  I'm going to try a couple more things, and then probably move 
on to another flavor.  I gave DSL a quick try, and it booted from the CD 
okay.  But, it's pretty rough, so I want to see if I can get something with 
more bang, if possible. 
 
Peg
 
 
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Tech Writer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "GNHLUG User Group" ; 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop - still 
trying...
> CDrom boot works, excellent.> > The "Xubuntu" CD is 
supposed to be better for old hardware than> Ubuntu, you could try 
that.  DSL will download quicker, it's *small*> > -- > 
Bill> [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
___> gnhlug-discuss mailing 
list> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss

Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Drew Van Zandt]

Try SLAX, it's another small one but really optimized for Pretty.

--DTVZ
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Stephen Ryan]

On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 21:06 -0400, Tech Writer wrote:

> At this point, I just hear a lot of disk spinning for MANY  MANY
> minutes... then the screen clears, and still more disk spinning... but
> nothing appears to be happening...  eventually, it all just stops.  

I just installed Ubuntu (on a much larger system) and I saw something
that suggested a minimum of 192Mb to install.  I doubt you really want
Ubuntu on a system with that little RAM; it might work if you install
the "server" variant, which installs a relatively minimal system, but I
suspect that DSL or one of the other small Linux systems would be a
whole lot better.

HTH,

> 
-- 
Stephen Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Center for Educational Outcomes

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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Tech Writer]

I'm beginning to see the same thing...  For example, I looked at the Xubuntu 
kit, and it requires 128MB for a Hard Drive install.


Peg

- Original Message - 
From: "Stephen Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...



On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 21:06 -0400, Tech Writer wrote:


At this point, I just hear a lot of disk spinning for MANY  MANY
minutes... then the screen clears, and still more disk spinning... but
nothing appears to be happening...  eventually, it all just stops.


I just installed Ubuntu (on a much larger system) and I saw something
that suggested a minimum of 192Mb to install.  I doubt you really want
Ubuntu on a system with that little RAM; it might work if you install
the "server" variant, which installs a relatively minimal system, but I
suspect that DSL or one of the other small Linux systems would be a
whole lot better.

HTH,




--
Stephen Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Center for Educational Outcomes

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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Bill Ricker]

I'm beginning to see the same thing...  For example, I looked at the Xubuntu
kit, and it requires 128MB for a Hard Drive install.


Is that Xubuntu's RAM requirement or Drive requirement?

Yes, compare the minimums of each distro against what you've got, it's
easier than trying it.

--
Bill
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Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...

[Bill Ricker]

RAM  I've got 40MB, so I'm way below this requirement.


Ouch, I missed focusing on that number on your first message. That
tightens things significantly. That will be a problem for pretty much
any graphical desktop that isn't really lean.

DSL says 16MB 486 is ok. I don't know what else can work with your
Pentium (1? Pro? 2?) 40MB. Folks have gotten Xwindows running with DSL
on 32MB laptops, so you've got a good chance. One poster used FluxBox
with a P120 Solo 2100 with only 24MB, but couldn't use 256 color mode,
only 4-bit color. You might hit that also.

Examples courtesy of googling site:damnsmalllinux.org ...
www.damnsmalllinux.org/f/topic-3-10-8309-0.html  SOLO 2100, P120/24MB
www.damnsmalllinux.org/f/topic-3-26-10870-0.html VAIO PGC505(FX)
w/32Mbwww.damnsmalllinux.org/f/topic-3-15-5647-0.html  P133 40MB

While the DSL FF build _might_ be light enough to work with Fluxbox in
40MB, you may need to use Opera or Dillo for a browser.

You will NOT be able to run a modern Java Integrated Development
Environment like Eclipse.  I'm not sure how satisfying it will be as a
Java tutoring station.

My rules about small tools ...

Rule 1) If there isn't a matter of safety, buy a cheap tool. If it
breaks or wears out or just doesn't work, buy the good one. If it
works fine, doesn't break, or never gets used, you saved money.
Rule 2) If it's safety, buy the good one first. People cost more than tools.

If the lads can show they've hit the old P150/40MB laptop's limits and
need more for their project, that would be something.  Worst case, it
can be a remote console for the server they build for their website
when they're done !

I hope they're having some of the fun with the Linux installs ...
that's part of the learning here. (Maybe you need to try it first so
you can teach them.)

--
Bill
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