Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages
"Ben Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On 6/4/06, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> ... 150 MHz Pentium ... 40MB RAM ... Some of my son's friends >> have decided to learn Java this summer ... > > Be warned that Java may be unbearably slow on that system. (Given > that it's irritatingly slow on much newer systems.) By what measurement do you determine that Java is slow, and compared to what? Is it slower for developement, or just running it? Is it slow compared to C, or Lisp, or Visual Basic? Are you doing systems programming with it or distributed systems application development? To say X is slow is not only misleading, but actually a useless and baseless charge without any context or reference. -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Speed of Java (was: Linux on old laptop in two stages)
On 6/5/06, Paul Lussier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Be warned that Java may be unbearably slow on that system. (Given that it's irritatingly slow on much newer systems.) By what measurement do you determine that Java is slow ... My measurement is qualitative, not quantitative. Everything that uses Java that I've ever encountered on any machine takes a long time to start and uses up gobs and gobs of memory, regardless of how trivial the program. Interactive programs all have a somewhat unresponsive UI, and go non-responsive for seconds at a time at seemingly random intervals. IME. YMMV. FWIW. HAND. ... and compared to what? Compared to molasses crawling backwards uphill in January. ;-) Okay, that one might not be all that scientific. ;-) Is it slower for developement, or just running it? Running software in the JVM/JRE. It could be that compiling Java-source to Java-bytecode is fast and low-memory; I wouldn't know. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages
Oh... and as a side note... I'm encouraged that there are four or five 14-year olds who want to learn more about Linux and Java, so I'd like to try to support them as much as possible... I've actually got a second old laptop (Toshiba Satellite Pro, Pentium MMX processor, 80 MB RAM with 1.34 GB hard drive) that I'm hoping I can also make useful for one of these kids to experiment with this summer, if possible. Peg - Original Message - From: "Bill Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tech Writer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "GNHLUG User Group" Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:57 PM Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages Ubuntu is a great desktop Linux distro, but I'd suspect it's not going to perform nicely on an older laptop like that. There's a new "Xubuntu" derivative that is using Xfce windowing for older hardware, will supposedly give you the best of both worlds -- light weight distro with the Ubuntu elan and bug-fixes, but optimized for (and packages selected for) Win95/Win98 era hardware. If and when I reclaim an old Win98 box here, I'll try Xubuntu and "Damn Small Linux", Vector, Puppy. A review of other distros for old hardware was recently posted http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/02/13/1854251 and you can get more information on the individual distros at http://distrowatch.com/ The installation steps vary depending just HOW old your hardware is. Most Gnu/Linux Distros install from a bootable CDrom. If you can set the BIOS to boot from the CDrom, you can install straight from the CD. (When booting, there's probably a message that flashes by early on that says something about hit some F-key (possibly in combination) to adjust/edit BIOS or CMOS or boot options. Just be sure the CD is before the hard-drive in boot order. And follow instructions on how to save before exiting setup. And don't change anything you don't need to.) If your old laptop can't boot from CDrom, you'll need either a runs-from-DOS installer or a boot-CD mini-installer, same as for Windows-98. Some distros have one, some the other, some may not support either. Good luck, -- Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages
Thanks for the feedback I'm assuming that it won't boot off the CD, since I remember the complicated way I had to get Windows on it way back when I actively used this machine. But, I'll try the kit I just built and let you know. Also, I appreciate the pointer to the distributions that work well on old machines... I think I may try DSL once I figure out the best way to get this system loaded. Peg - Original Message - From: "Bill Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tech Writer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "GNHLUG User Group" Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:57 PM Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages Ubuntu is a great desktop Linux distro, but I'd suspect it's not going to perform nicely on an older laptop like that. There's a new "Xubuntu" derivative that is using Xfce windowing for older hardware, will supposedly give you the best of both worlds -- light weight distro with the Ubuntu elan and bug-fixes, but optimized for (and packages selected for) Win95/Win98 era hardware. If and when I reclaim an old Win98 box here, I'll try Xubuntu and "Damn Small Linux", Vector, Puppy. A review of other distros for old hardware was recently posted http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/02/13/1854251 and you can get more information on the individual distros at http://distrowatch.com/ The installation steps vary depending just HOW old your hardware is. Most Gnu/Linux Distros install from a bootable CDrom. If you can set the BIOS to boot from the CDrom, you can install straight from the CD. (When booting, there's probably a message that flashes by early on that says something about hit some F-key (possibly in combination) to adjust/edit BIOS or CMOS or boot options. Just be sure the CD is before the hard-drive in boot order. And follow instructions on how to save before exiting setup. And don't change anything you don't need to.) If your old laptop can't boot from CDrom, you'll need either a runs-from-DOS installer or a boot-CD mini-installer, same as for Windows-98. Some distros have one, some the other, some may not support either. Good luck, -- Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages
On Monday 05 June 2006 08:35 am, Paul Lussier wrote: > By what measurement do you determine that Java is slow, and compared > to what? Is it slower for developement, or just running it? Is it > slow compared to C, or Lisp, or Visual Basic? Are you doing systems > programming with it or distributed systems application development? > > To say X is slow is not only misleading, but actually a useless and > baseless charge without any context or reference. I'm guessing he says it's slow to use. And no, it's not that Java is slow... but that everything you need to run Java is slow. I always hear people complain that Java isn't slow anymore, but have yet to see it. I don't run the most modern hardware these days, but it was fast a few years ago and I hate whenever I get around to starting up a Java applet or something or other. The JVM takes forever to load and everything else will run dog slow while it is there. I may be wrong and maybe I'm just an idiot when it comes to running my own systems... but I get a little annoyed when every time this topic comes up, someone chimes in and says Java isn't slow without providing any pointer to the apparently simple option I must be missing that makes a JVM kick into gear and run like other stuff. It has its merits, but speed never has been one of them. -N ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages
On 6/4/06, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've got an old Gateway Solo 2100 laptop with 150 MHz Pentium processor, 40MB RAM and 1.34 GB hard vdrive. It's been sitting in the corner collecting dust, and still contains Windows-98. Some of my son's friends have decided to learn Java this summer, so I was hoping I could install a "small" Linux on this, and let them use it as a test system.Hmm, I used to run Mandrake 7.2/Redhat 7.x on a P150 w/ 80MB and 1.3GB. I was able to use a cable to get the floppy to boot 1st and then use the CD. If it can boot from CD, you're all set. You could try an NFS or FTP install. You need a machine to serve NFS/FTP though.
Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages
Peggy Harris wrote: Thanks for the feedback I'm assuming that it won't boot off the CD, since I remember the complicated way I had to get Windows on it way back when I actively used this machine. But, I'll try the kit I just built and let you know. Also, I appreciate the pointer to the distributions that work well on old machines... I think I may try DSL once I figure out the best way to get this system loaded. Another option, which I've used in a past similar circumstance, was to remove the hard drive from the laptop, connect it to a standard desktop using a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adaptor, install on the desktop, reinstall the harddrive back in the laptop and then redetect the hardware configuration there. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Monadnock Linux User Group - June 8th
The next meeting of the Monadnock Linux User Group (MonadLUG) will be this Thursday, June 8th, 7:00pm, at the SAU 1 Superintendent's Office behind South Meadow School in Peterborough. For directions and other information, visit http://wiki.gnhlug.org/twiki2/bin/view/Www/MonadLUG AGENDA 1. Announcements. 2. Tim Lind presents on AsteriskT - the Open Source PBX! Asterisk is a complete PBX in software. It runs on Linux, BSD and MacOSX and provides all of the features you would expect from a PBX and more. Asterisk does voice over IP in many protocols, and can interoperate with almost all standards-based telephony equipment using relatively inexpensive hardware. * We're also looking for topics for future meetings. If you have a suggestion or would like to present a topic yourself, please contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please forward this announcement to anyone you think may be interested in attending. Thank you, Guy Pardoe MonadLUG Coordinator ___ gnhlug-announce mailing list gnhlug-announce@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-announce ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages
Context is unnecessary if, for example, Java is unbearably slow compared to nearly everything. The only things I've seen that are slower than (aggregate of all Java apps I've seen and used) are e.g. field simulators or modal analysis simulation tools... and since they're doing a lot of hardcore math it's not unexpected. I *am* a bit confused, however, since if I search for "Java benchmark" I get lots of pages saying something along the lines of "Java used to be slow but now it isn't." Contrairwise, I personally use a few Java applets for which I also have non-Java equivalents, and several of our competitors have products similar to ours (but with beefier processors) and run Java front ends... and in every case the Java production code is much, much slower than the non-Java code. (The other code is, variously, in PHP, mod_perl, and C.) I hear the peanut gallery waiting to say "but you can't compare different apps/implementations" - bollocks I can't. Toyotas and Fords are wildly different implementations of objects of type "car", yet it is both useful and accepted to make blanket statements about them. :-) You are welcome to disagree, but unless you plan on rewriting all the Java apps that turn out to be slower than I expect them to be based on my experiences with similar non-Java apps, you are unlikely to change my opinion. Flame away... --DTVZ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages
A lot of the claims to the effect of "Java is much faster nowadays" are based on the fact that typical Java implementations nowadays include much better JIT (Just In Time) compilers. Translating an application's interpreted Java bytecode into native machine code can yield some very large performance gains. I'm not sure what the current state of the art is with Java *applets* is, however. I wouldn't be surprised if these things did not get run through the JIT compiler. It is also very possible that JVM's that run on Windows are more efficient than those that you typically see under Linux -- this is where most of the brainpower in this space is concentrated. YMMV. --kevin -- GnuPG ID: B280F24E And the madness of the crowd alumni.unh.edu!kdc Is an epileptic fit -- Tom Waits ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Speed of Java (was: Linux on old laptop in two stages)
On 6/5/06, Kevin D. Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It is also very possible that JVM's that run on Windows are more efficient than those that you typically see under Linux ... My personal experience is that the Sun Java VM is just as slow under Windows as it is under Linux, so I don't think that's it. Again, FWIW, IME, IMO, YMMV, TLA, ETLA, TMA, etc. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Speed of Java (was: Linux on old laptop in two stages)
Ben Scott wrote: > My measurement is qualitative, not quantitative. Everything that > uses Java that I've ever encountered on any machine takes a long time > to start and uses up gobs and gobs of memory, regardless of how > trivial the program. Interactive programs all have a somewhat > unresponsive UI, and go non-responsive for seconds at a time at > seemingly random intervals. I use Oracle JDeveloper (free as in beer: http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/index.html) quite a bit and I've not noticed the problems that you have other than taking a 'long time' to start, maybe... Certainly no more than any other very large and sophisticated IDE. JDeveloper is written in Java. JDeveloper includes a code profiler that will help you write better Java code. When the developers finished the code profiler they ran the JDeveloper product code through the profiler and got a pretty noticeable improvement in performance. There are more than 6000 Oracle Applications (Oracle Applications, Siebel, PeopleSoft, and a bunch of other companies we've acquired over the years) developers at Oracle who are using JDeveloper and they all want their tools to run fast. They wouldn't be happy with the kind of performance that you describe below. Not only that, but the developers who write the other tools at Oracle (Portal, XML Publisher, BPEL Designer, etc.) all use JDeveloper, many on Linux. My own personal experience: I've got a 1.6GHz Pentium laptop with 2GB of ram and I'm able to run the below in quite a usable manner: Windows XP Professional base operating system VMWare image with the following: Windows XP Professional OS Oracle Enterprise Edition 10g Oracle Application Server Enterprise Edition 10g Oracle BPEL Process Manager Oracle JDeveloper That's a LOT of software to run on a 2GB machine. I've also run JDeveloper on a Linux VM running X and didn't notice the kind of performance you are describing below. JDeveloper is a great big huge Java program that you can download for free... Want to give it a try and let us know what you think? Rich ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Speed of Java (was: Linux on old laptop in two stages)
On 6/5/06, Richard Soule <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've got a 1.6GHz Pentium laptop with 2GB of ram and I'm able to run the below in quite a usable manner: Keep in mind the context of the original post was a 100 MHz laptop with 40 MB of RAM. Your video subsystem prolly has more RAM then that whole laptop. My own experience is mainly on PCs with 128 MB or 256 MB of RAM, in the 1 GHz range. The fact that an IDE runs well on a machine with more RAM then the capacity of my first four hard drives combined doesn't really impress me much. :-) JDeveloper is a great big huge Java program that you can download for free... Want to give it a try and let us know what you think? Not in the least. :-) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
OT: Porkfest
I'll be going to the FSP Pork Fest event in a couple weeks... driving up from Manchester. Anyone else planning to be there? Jared ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: OT: PorCfest
Me me me... and it's Porc Fest (as opposed to Ham Fest, aka Hosstraders) as in Porcupine. See you there! Seth On 6/5/06, Jared Watkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'll be going to the FSP Pork Fest event in a couple weeks... driving up from Manchester. Anyone else planning to be there? Jared -- Liberty in our Lifetime: http://www.freestateproject.org 20K freedom activists all working toward self-responsibility ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Speed of Java
"Ben Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On 6/5/06, Kevin D. Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> It is also very possible that JVM's that run on Windows are more >> efficient than those that you typically see under Linux ... > > My personal experience is that the Sun Java VM is just as slow under > Windows as it is under Linux, so I don't think that's it. We use the IBM JVm for our development of a distributed systems application, and, while I'm not one of the developers, I've not heard them complain about it being slow. Actually, the reason we use the IBM JVM is specifically because it's faster than the Sun JVM. This is all on Debian, btw. -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Speed of Java
Paul Lussier wrote: > We use the IBM JVm for our development of a distributed systems > application, and, while I'm not one of the developers, I've not heard > them complain about it being slow. Actually, the reason we use the > IBM JVM is specifically because it's faster than the Sun JVM. > > This is all on Debian, btw. Last time I looked at IBM Jikes, which was a long time ago, it was still based on Java 1.1.x. Is that still the case? If so, aren't there version compatibility issues when using third-party java code that was written in the context of 1.4.x or 1.5.x? -- John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix ICQ 28611923 / AIM abreauj / JABBER [EMAIL PROTECTED] / YAHOO abreauj Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0xD5C7B5D9 PGP-Key-Fingerprint 72 FB 39 4F 3C 3B D6 5B E0 C8 5A 6E F1 2C BE 99 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
Well.. to my surprise, I WAS able to boot from the CD. I started up the Ubunu install, but it got caught up at: ACPI: Unable to locate RSDP If I did my googling right, that means it can't find a "Root System Description Pointer" for the "Advanced Configuration & Power Interface"... which I'm guessing this system is too old to know about. I found some reference to turning this off via a kernel parameter, but since I'm not yet installed, I can't figure out how to do that. Unless someone has a suggestion on how to get past this, I think I'll try DSL next. Peg - Original Message - From: "Bill Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tech Writer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "GNHLUG User Group" Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:57 PM Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages Ubuntu is a great desktop Linux distro, but I'd suspect it's not going to perform nicely on an older laptop like that. There's a new "Xubuntu" derivative that is using Xfce windowing for older hardware, will supposedly give you the best of both worlds -- light weight distro with the Ubuntu elan and bug-fixes, but optimized for (and packages selected for) Win95/Win98 era hardware. If and when I reclaim an old Win98 box here, I'll try Xubuntu and "Damn Small Linux", Vector, Puppy. A review of other distros for old hardware was recently posted http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/02/13/1854251 and you can get more information on the individual distros at http://distrowatch.com/ The installation steps vary depending just HOW old your hardware is. Most Gnu/Linux Distros install from a bootable CDrom. If you can set the BIOS to boot from the CDrom, you can install straight from the CD. (When booting, there's probably a message that flashes by early on that says something about hit some F-key (possibly in combination) to adjust/edit BIOS or CMOS or boot options. Just be sure the CD is before the hard-drive in boot order. And follow instructions on how to save before exiting setup. And don't change anything you don't need to.) If your old laptop can't boot from CDrom, you'll need either a runs-from-DOS installer or a boot-CD mini-installer, same as for Windows-98. Some distros have one, some the other, some may not support either. Good luck, -- Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Liquid Cooling
I notice that Radio Shack is now carrying stock for 'case modder' geeks. Among the inventory I saw today (Westford MA Radio Shack) are some things for liquid cooling. I saw a heat exchanger with a mounted fan, bottles of some kind of liquid for the cooling system and heatsinks etc. They also have cables and fans with built in illumination to provide additional load for your power supply. It is interesting to look at. reminds me of those things I wanted for my car when I was a kid; chrome plated air cleaners etc. -Andrew Gaunt ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
On 6/5/06, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I started up the Ubunu install, but it got caught up at: ACPI: Unable to locate RSDP If I did my googling right, that means ... Yah. In short, ACPI isn't there or is really broken. This is not unusual. What is ACPI, you ask? It's a way for the OS to interface with machine feature like resource configuration and power management. Prior to ACPI, we had to deal with buggy BIOSes, broken implementations of APM, and manufacturer-specific quirks. With ACPI, we have to deal with buggy BIOSes, broken implementations of ACPI, manufacturer-specific quirks, and a bloated management framework. I'm told this is progress. I found some reference to turning this off via a kernel parameter ... Yes. I think the syntax is "acpi=off". ... but since I'm not yet installed, I can't figure out how to do that. When the CD first boots (within the first few seconds), is should give you some kind of message about how to get more information, and tell you to press [ENTER] to boot if you don't care. You care. There should be an option to append kernel command line options. This might mean typing something like: linux acpi=off but the details are specific to each distribution and release. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Liquid Cooling
On 6/5/06, Andrew W. Gaunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It is interesting to look at. reminds me of those things I wanted for my car when I was a kid; chrome plated air cleaners etc. Same target market. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Speed of Java
John Abreau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Last time I looked at IBM Jikes, which was a long time ago, it was > still based on Java 1.1.x. Is that still the case? Not to my knowledge. apt-cache search on one of our test systems shows: $ apt-cache search ibm ibm-java2-jre - IBM Java2 1.4.2 SR4-1 Java Runtime Environment. ibm-java2-sdk - IBM Java2 1.4.2 SR4-1 Software Development Kit. > If so, aren't there version compatibility issues when using > third-party java code that was written in the context of 1.4.x or > 1.5.x? Perhaps, but, as the doctor says, "If it hurts when you do that, don't do that!" So, we don't, I'm sure :) -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
"Ben Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> I found some reference to turning this off via a kernel parameter ... > > Yes. I think the syntax is "acpi=off". We've got grub kernel params of 'noapic', is there also a noacpi? A quick googling for noacpi yields 'pci=noacpi' references. -- Seeya, Paul ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
On 6/5/06, Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 6/5/06, Tech Writer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> I started up the Ubunu install, but it got caught up at:> ACPI: Unable to locate RSDP>> If I did my googling right, that means ... Yah. In short, ACPI isn't there or is really broken. This is not unusual.My Fedora 4 system disables ACPI checking on a pre 1999 BIOS. I imagine a P150 laptop is 1997 era.I'd say Ubuntu needs a much more modern system with more power/ram/disk. What modern distributions will work well on P150 systems?Is it better to go retro w/ Redhat 7 era distributions?
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
Last place I worked we had some kernels that (counterintuitively) needed to be booted with both of these: noacpi acpi=off ...and "Didn't you mean noapic?" was definitely an FAQ. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
I've run Debian recently on a 586/133 (AMD of some sort?) with 64 MB of RAM, and it was fine once I trimmed out a little of the extra crud... in particular switching to a low-demand X window manager helped. I can't remember which I ended up using, unfortunately, but it was based on googling for something pretty straightforward like "x window manager embedded" --DTVZ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
Drew Van Zandt wrote: > I've run Debian recently on a 586/133 (AMD of some sort?) with 64 MB > of RAM, and it was fine once I trimmed out a little of the extra > crud... in particular switching to a low-demand X window manager > helped. I can't remember which I ended up using, unfortunately, but > it was based on googling for something pretty straightforward like "x > window manager embedded" > Looks like Matchbox is the favorite embedded WM, according to google. http://projects.o-hand.com/matchbox/ -- John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix ICQ 28611923 / AIM abreauj / JABBER [EMAIL PROTECTED] / YAHOO abreauj Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0xD5C7B5D9 PGP-Key-Fingerprint 72 FB 39 4F 3C 3B D6 5B E0 C8 5A 6E F1 2C BE 99 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
CDrom boot works, excellent. The "Xubuntu" CD is supposed to be better for old hardware than Ubuntu, you could try that. DSL will download quicker, it's *small* -- Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
On 6/5/06, John Abreau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Looks like Matchbox is the favorite embedded WM, according to google. http://projects.o-hand.com/matchbox/ The screen shots seem to imply that it's designed for PDAs, cellphones, and the like. Might not be the best choice for a regular PC (even an old one). There are more "traditional" WMs which have varying degrees of lightweightness[1]. Anything from FVWM [2] to evilwm [3] might work. Footnotes - [1] Not an actual word. [2] http://www.fvwm.org [3] http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/ -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Java Re: Linux on old laptop in two stages
Yes, Java's recent speed comes from (a) JIT compilation (b) real static native compilation with optimization (e.g., JRocket) (c) running on really hot hardware. (And I do mean hot ... the 3.7GHz chips have more Watts per square inch than a hot plate! There's a reason you won't see commercial 4GHz chips in volume production ...) Applets running in a browser would be able to benefit from JIT if the browser plugin includes that feature. I haven't checked to see if they do. But for learning Java, the speed may not matter as long as the program (and debugger) _runs_ . Assuming they don't want to use Commandline-only Linux, that probably mean Fluxbox or Xfce or one of the other lightweight alternative desktops instead of heavyweight Gnome and KDE, with a Distro optimized for old hardware (Xubuntu, DSL, Puppy, Vector, ..). I'm worried Eclipse won't fit on that laptop ... they'll may need to learn commandline tools and standalone lightweight editors (but pick one with syntax highlighting at least). -- Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
I'm getting further with the Ubuntu CD boot onto my old Gateway 2000, but still not quite there... Quick status for those of you who have provided feedback so far... When the Ubuntu CD is booted up, there are five choices: Start or install Ubuntu Start Ubuntu in safe graphics mode Check CD for defects Memory test Boot from first hard diskWhile the "Start or install Ubuntu" is highlighted, I can press "F5 Accessibility", to see the boot options listed as follows: Boot Options ._size=1048576 root=/dev/ram rw quiet splash --I edited this to add acpi=off, and removed "quiet" (not sure what "splash" is). The result is: Boot Options ._size=1048576 root=/dev/ram acpi=off rw splash --I get further now... I see a clean window with the ubuntu banner, and a status bar, followed by these messages:Loading essential drivers OKRunning ./scripts/init-premount OKMounting root file system...Running ./scripts/casper-premount OKRunning ./scripts/casper-bottomMoving mount points... OKAdding live CD userThen, the system seems to just start spinning the disk (lights for both CD and hard drive continue to randomly flash). This continues for a while, then the clean display disappears, and I get rough text spitting out boot messages, the last few being...Begin: Loading essential drivers...Done.Begin: Running /scripts/init-premount ...Done.Begin: Mounting root file system... ...At this point, I just hear a lot of disk spinning for MANY MANY minutes... then the screen clears, and still more disk spinning... but nothing appears to be happening... eventually, it all just stops. Fortunately, this is going on to the side of me, while I'm getting more productive work done elsewhere... otherwise, instead of being an interesting learning experience, this would pretty frustrating. I'm going to try a couple more things, and then probably move on to another flavor. I gave DSL a quick try, and it booted from the CD okay. But, it's pretty rough, so I want to see if I can get something with more bang, if possible. Peg - Original Message - From: "Bill Ricker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tech Writer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "GNHLUG User Group"; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying... > CDrom boot works, excellent.> > The "Xubuntu" CD is supposed to be better for old hardware than> Ubuntu, you could try that. DSL will download quicker, it's *small*> > -- > Bill> [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___> gnhlug-discuss mailing list> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
Try SLAX, it's another small one but really optimized for Pretty. --DTVZ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 21:06 -0400, Tech Writer wrote: > At this point, I just hear a lot of disk spinning for MANY MANY > minutes... then the screen clears, and still more disk spinning... but > nothing appears to be happening... eventually, it all just stops. I just installed Ubuntu (on a much larger system) and I saw something that suggested a minimum of 192Mb to install. I doubt you really want Ubuntu on a system with that little RAM; it might work if you install the "server" variant, which installs a relatively minimal system, but I suspect that DSL or one of the other small Linux systems would be a whole lot better. HTH, > -- Stephen Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Center for Educational Outcomes ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
I'm beginning to see the same thing... For example, I looked at the Xubuntu kit, and it requires 128MB for a Hard Drive install. Peg - Original Message - From: "Stephen Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying... On Mon, 2006-06-05 at 21:06 -0400, Tech Writer wrote: At this point, I just hear a lot of disk spinning for MANY MANY minutes... then the screen clears, and still more disk spinning... but nothing appears to be happening... eventually, it all just stops. I just installed Ubuntu (on a much larger system) and I saw something that suggested a minimum of 192Mb to install. I doubt you really want Ubuntu on a system with that little RAM; it might work if you install the "server" variant, which installs a relatively minimal system, but I suspect that DSL or one of the other small Linux systems would be a whole lot better. HTH, -- Stephen Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Center for Educational Outcomes ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
I'm beginning to see the same thing... For example, I looked at the Xubuntu kit, and it requires 128MB for a Hard Drive install. Is that Xubuntu's RAM requirement or Drive requirement? Yes, compare the minimums of each distro against what you've got, it's easier than trying it. -- Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: Linux on old laptop - still trying...
RAM I've got 40MB, so I'm way below this requirement. Ouch, I missed focusing on that number on your first message. That tightens things significantly. That will be a problem for pretty much any graphical desktop that isn't really lean. DSL says 16MB 486 is ok. I don't know what else can work with your Pentium (1? Pro? 2?) 40MB. Folks have gotten Xwindows running with DSL on 32MB laptops, so you've got a good chance. One poster used FluxBox with a P120 Solo 2100 with only 24MB, but couldn't use 256 color mode, only 4-bit color. You might hit that also. Examples courtesy of googling site:damnsmalllinux.org ... www.damnsmalllinux.org/f/topic-3-10-8309-0.html SOLO 2100, P120/24MB www.damnsmalllinux.org/f/topic-3-26-10870-0.html VAIO PGC505(FX) w/32Mbwww.damnsmalllinux.org/f/topic-3-15-5647-0.html P133 40MB While the DSL FF build _might_ be light enough to work with Fluxbox in 40MB, you may need to use Opera or Dillo for a browser. You will NOT be able to run a modern Java Integrated Development Environment like Eclipse. I'm not sure how satisfying it will be as a Java tutoring station. My rules about small tools ... Rule 1) If there isn't a matter of safety, buy a cheap tool. If it breaks or wears out or just doesn't work, buy the good one. If it works fine, doesn't break, or never gets used, you saved money. Rule 2) If it's safety, buy the good one first. People cost more than tools. If the lads can show they've hit the old P150/40MB laptop's limits and need more for their project, that would be something. Worst case, it can be a remote console for the server they build for their website when they're done ! I hope they're having some of the fun with the Linux installs ... that's part of the learning here. (Maybe you need to try it first so you can teach them.) -- Bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss