Re: Have suggestions for a "roll your own file server"?

[jonhall80]

I forgot one thing:

Set up a shell script to do a simple diagnostic on both systems to detect a 
failed or failing system.  Run two or three times a day.

md

> On 03/08/2021 9:56 PM jonhal...@comcast.net wrote:
>  
>  
> I will suggest something and let people rip it apart:
> 
> Get two RPis that have at least USB 2.0  Attach two large capacity disks 
> to each one in a RAID-1 configuration (also known as "mirroring") to keep it 
> simple.  If one disk fails the other will still keep working (but you should 
> replace it as soon as possible).
> 
> Put all of your data on both systems.
> 
> Take one of your systems to a friends or relatives house who you trust 
> that has relatively good WiFi.  Make sure the friend is relatively close, but 
> is not in the same flood plain or fire area you are.
> 
> Do an rsync every night to keep them in sync.
> 
> Help your friend/relative do the same thing, keeping a copy of their data 
> in your house.   If your disks are big enough you could share systems and 
> disks.
> 
> Use encryption as you wish.
> 
> Disk failure?   Replace the disk and the data will be replicated.
> Fire, theft, earthquake?   Take the replaced system over to your 
> friends/relatives and copy the data at high speed, then take the copied 
> system back to your house and start using it again.
> 
> You would need three disks to fail at relatively the same time to lose 
> your data.   Or an asteroid crashing that wipes out all life on the planet.  
> Unlikely.
> 
> Realize that nothing is forever.
> 
> md
> 
> > > On 03/08/2021 7:33 PM Bruce Labitt  
> wrote:
> >  
> >  
> > For the second time in 3 months I have had a computer failure.  
> > Oddly, it was a PS on the motherboard both times.  (Two different MB's.)  
> > Fortunately the disks were ok.  I'm living on borrowed time.  Next time, I 
> > may not be that lucky.  
> >  
> > Need a file server system with some sort of RAID redundancy.  I 
> > want to backup 2 main computers, plus photos.  Maybe this RPI4 too, since 
> > that's what I'm running on, due to the second failure.  If this SSD goes, 
> > I'm gonna be a sad puppy.  This is for home use, so we are not talking 
> > Exabytes.  I'm thinking about 2-4TB of RAID.  Unless of course, RAID is 
> > obsolete these days.  Honestly, I find some of the levels of RAID 
> > confusing.  I want something that will survive a disk failure (or two) out 
> > of the array.  Have any ideas, or can you point me to some place that 
> > discusses this somewhat intelligently?
> >  
> > Are there reasonable systems that one can put together oneself 
> > these days?  Can I repurpose an older PC for this purpose?  Or an RPI4?  
> > What are the gotchas of going this way?
> >  
> > I want to be able to set up a daily rsync or equivalent so we will 
> > lose as little as possible.  At the moment, I'm not thinking about 
> > surviving fire or disaster.  Maybe I should, but I suspect the costs 
> > balloon considerably.  I do not want to backup to the cloud because, plain 
> > and simple, I don't trust it to be fully secure.
> >  
> > Thanks for any and all suggestions.  
> > ___
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> > gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
> > 
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Re: Have suggestions for a "roll your own file server"?

[jonhall80]

I will suggest something and let people rip it apart:

Get two RPis that have at least USB 2.0  Attach two large capacity disks to 
each one in a RAID-1 configuration (also known as "mirroring") to keep it 
simple.  If one disk fails the other will still keep working (but you should 
replace it as soon as possible).

Put all of your data on both systems.

Take one of your systems to a friends or relatives house who you trust that has 
relatively good WiFi.  Make sure the friend is relatively close, but is not in 
the same flood plain or fire area you are.

Do an rsync every night to keep them in sync.

Help your friend/relative do the same thing, keeping a copy of their data in 
your house.   If your disks are big enough you could share systems and disks.

Use encryption as you wish.

Disk failure?   Replace the disk and the data will be replicated.
Fire, theft, earthquake?   Take the replaced system over to your 
friends/relatives and copy the data at high speed, then take the copied system 
back to your house and start using it again.

You would need three disks to fail at relatively the same time to lose your 
data.   Or an asteroid crashing that wipes out all life on the planet.  
Unlikely.

Realize that nothing is forever.

md

> On 03/08/2021 7:33 PM Bruce Labitt  wrote:
>  
>  
> For the second time in 3 months I have had a computer failure.  Oddly, it 
> was a PS on the motherboard both times.  (Two different MB's.)  Fortunately 
> the disks were ok.  I'm living on borrowed time.  Next time, I may not be 
> that lucky.  
>  
> Need a file server system with some sort of RAID redundancy.  I want to 
> backup 2 main computers, plus photos.  Maybe this RPI4 too, since that's what 
> I'm running on, due to the second failure.  If this SSD goes, I'm gonna be a 
> sad puppy.  This is for home use, so we are not talking Exabytes.  I'm 
> thinking about 2-4TB of RAID.  Unless of course, RAID is obsolete these days. 
>  Honestly, I find some of the levels of RAID confusing.  I want something 
> that will survive a disk failure (or two) out of the array.  Have any ideas, 
> or can you point me to some place that discusses this somewhat intelligently?
>  
> Are there reasonable systems that one can put together oneself these 
> days?  Can I repurpose an older PC for this purpose?  Or an RPI4?  What are 
> the gotchas of going this way?
>  
> I want to be able to set up a daily rsync or equivalent so we will lose 
> as little as possible.  At the moment, I'm not thinking about surviving fire 
> or disaster.  Maybe I should, but I suspect the costs balloon considerably.  
> I do not want to backup to the cloud because, plain and simple, I don't trust 
> it to be fully secure.
>  
> Thanks for any and all suggestions.  
> ___
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
> 
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[jonhall80]

It was 1974 and the IBM 360 had an unsigned 64 bit clock that updated (I 
believe) every ten milliseconds.

The operator booted the online transactional system and mistakenly typed in the 
next day's date.   They IMMEDIATELY realized the error, shut the machine down 
and brought it up again typing in the right datebut it was too late.

*One* transaction had been entered into the system on the "next day".

After the math was done that ONE transaction offset 400,000 other transactions 
that day that would normally have an average calculated value of being two to 
three days in the system to create an AVERAGE "in system" transaction time of 
three or four hundred years (I can not remember exactly what we calculated).

Our reports could not even print out the number, it was too large for the field.

md
> On 03/08/2021 7:45 PM r...@mrt4.com wrote:
> 
>  
> Here's my story about time...
> 
> I had an old computer I was using as an email server and I just configured 
> the time to sync once a day, which seemed often enough for email. The clock 
> started to go bad, drifting several minutes a day (I don't remember now if it 
> was forward or backward because I'm getting pretty old myself), and when it 
> resynced each day, well, I couldn't understand why my logs kept indicating 
> that the system was violating causality...
> 
> > You could plan a vacation in Switzerland in 2030, but if an asteroid
> > obliterates Switzerland in 2028, your vacation plans become null and void.
> > It's not a contingency you need to plan for when making your vacation
> > plans.
> > 
> 
> Depends on the size of the asteroid. (apocalypse humor)
> 
> Ronald
> r...@mrt4.com
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Jerry Feldman]

128 bits 😀

--
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Mar 8, 2021, 6:21 PM Curt Howland  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On Monday 08 March 2021, Joshua Judson Rosen was heard to say:
> >   What's the likelihood that this date is going to pass through a
> > computer where time_t is not wider than 32 bits before then?
>
> Hehehehe.
>
> Tovalds was asked about the 2038 problem would be a problem. From
> memory, he said, "It's nothing more difficult than changing the
> counter from 32 bits to 64 bits, and a recompile. I hope people are
> using something better than Linux by then."
>
>
> - --
> You may my glories and my state dispose,
> But not my griefs; still am I king of those.
>  --- William Shakespeare, "Richard II"
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>
> iHUEAREIAB0WIQTaYVhJsIalt8scIDa2T1fo1pHhqQUCYEaxTwAKCRC2T1fo1pHh
> qVMAAP9a5zgkthHz+iwg4p6jaxZl8gqLcmcWns1bv6F/h+ncQAD+Kl5CiRLPSIE9
> DvCrglbqU+DSLsRyhqAJF8YII2cpkik=
> =4Xor
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: Have suggestions for a "roll your own file server"?

[jsf]

I know this is not really an answer to the question but I've spun up a
small server on AWS with some storage that I snapshot every 6 hours.. i
installed 'owncloud' on the server and i have an owncloud client on my
laptop and my iphone.. really happy with it.. share the space with the
whole family.  I prepaid for the server on AWS greatly reducing the cost of
running it..

Happy to provide more info on request.

J.

On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 8:10 PM bruce.lab...@myfairpoint.net <
bruce.lab...@myfairpoint.net> wrote:

> Nuts, what I meant was NAS.  There's open media vault, are there others
> that "easy enough" for relative beginners?
>
> Get BlueMail for Android 
> On Mar 8, 2021, at 7:35 PM, Bruce Labitt  wrote:
>>
>> For the second time in 3 months I have had a computer failure.  Oddly, it
>> was a PS on the motherboard both times.  (Two different MB's.)  Fortunately
>> the disks were ok.  I'm living on borrowed time.  Next time, I may not be
>> that lucky.
>>
>> Need a file server system with some sort of RAID redundancy.  I want to
>> backup 2 main computers, plus photos.  Maybe this RPI4 too, since that's
>> what I'm running on, due to the second failure.  If this SSD goes, I'm
>> gonna be a sad puppy.  This is for home use, so we are not talking
>> Exabytes.  I'm thinking about 2-4TB of RAID.  Unless of course, RAID is
>> obsolete these days.  Honestly, I find some of the levels of RAID
>> confusing.  I want something that will survive a disk failure (or two) out
>> of the array.  Have any ideas, or can you point me to some place that
>> discusses this somewhat intelligently?
>>
>> Are there reasonable systems that one can put together oneself these
>> days?  Can I repurpose an older PC for this purpose?  Or an RPI4?  What are
>> the gotchas of going this way?
>>
>> I want to be able to set up a daily rsync or equivalent so we will lose
>> as little as possible.  At the moment, I'm not thinking about surviving
>> fire or disaster.  Maybe I should, but I suspect the costs balloon
>> considerably.  I do not want to backup to the cloud because, plain and
>> simple, I don't trust it to be fully secure.
>>
>> Thanks for any and all suggestions.
>>
>> --
>>
>> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
>> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
>> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>>
>> ___
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>


-- 
new email:  jfree...@hey.com
https://about.me/joshuafreeman
https://joshuasfreeman.me

[image: View Joshua S. Freeman's profile on LinkedIn]

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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Bruce Labitt]

Yet you might think that since many, many people pay off mortgages or pay
off mortgages on sales of property every single year that they might have
it down to a science by now.   It is not like I am the first mortgage that
has been paid off in the past 30 years..

Maddog, I totally agree with you.  I was astonished and more than a little
annoyed that it took so long.  You'd think it was the first time (every
time!).  Apparently the banks aren't too innovative in this respect...
-Bruce

On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 7:45 PM  wrote:

> Here's my story about time...
>
> I had an old computer I was using as an email server and I just configured
> the time to sync once a day, which seemed often enough for email. The clock
> started to go bad, drifting several minutes a day (I don't remember now if
> it was forward or backward because I'm getting pretty old myself), and when
> it resynced each day, well, I couldn't understand why my logs kept
> indicating that the system was violating causality...
>
> > You could plan a vacation in Switzerland in 2030, but if an asteroid
> > obliterates Switzerland in 2028, your vacation plans become null and
> void.
> > It's not a contingency you need to plan for when making your vacation
> > plans.
> >
>
> Depends on the size of the asteroid. (apocalypse humor)
>
> Ronald
> r...@mrt4.com
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Re: Have suggestions for a "roll your own file server"?

[bruce.lab...@myfairpoint.net]

Nuts, what I meant was NAS.  There's open media vault, are there others that 
"easy enough" for relative beginners?

⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​

On Mar 8, 2021, 7:35 PM, at 7:35 PM, Bruce Labitt  wrote:
>For the second time in 3 months I have had a computer failure.  Oddly,
>it
>was a PS on the motherboard both times.  (Two different MB's.)
>Fortunately
>the disks were ok.  I'm living on borrowed time.  Next time, I may not
>be
>that lucky.
>
>Need a file server system with some sort of RAID redundancy.  I want to
>backup 2 main computers, plus photos.  Maybe this RPI4 too, since
>that's
>what I'm running on, due to the second failure.  If this SSD goes, I'm
>gonna be a sad puppy.  This is for home use, so we are not talking
>Exabytes.  I'm thinking about 2-4TB of RAID.  Unless of course, RAID is
>obsolete these days.  Honestly, I find some of the levels of RAID
>confusing.  I want something that will survive a disk failure (or two)
>out
>of the array.  Have any ideas, or can you point me to some place that
>discusses this somewhat intelligently?
>
>Are there reasonable systems that one can put together oneself these
>days?
>Can I repurpose an older PC for this purpose?  Or an RPI4?  What are
>the
>gotchas of going this way?
>
>I want to be able to set up a daily rsync or equivalent so we will lose
>as
>little as possible.  At the moment, I'm not thinking about surviving
>fire
>or disaster.  Maybe I should, but I suspect the costs balloon
>considerably.  I do not want to backup to the cloud because, plain and
>simple, I don't trust it to be fully secure.
>
>Thanks for any and all suggestions.
>
>
>
>
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[r270]

Here's my story about time...

I had an old computer I was using as an email server and I just configured the 
time to sync once a day, which seemed often enough for email. The clock started 
to go bad, drifting several minutes a day (I don't remember now if it was 
forward or backward because I'm getting pretty old myself), and when it 
resynced each day, well, I couldn't understand why my logs kept indicating that 
the system was violating causality...

> You could plan a vacation in Switzerland in 2030, but if an asteroid
> obliterates Switzerland in 2028, your vacation plans become null and void.
> It's not a contingency you need to plan for when making your vacation
> plans.
> 

Depends on the size of the asteroid. (apocalypse humor)

Ronald
r...@mrt4.com
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Have suggestions for a "roll your own file server"?

[Bruce Labitt]

For the second time in 3 months I have had a computer failure.  Oddly, it
was a PS on the motherboard both times.  (Two different MB's.)  Fortunately
the disks were ok.  I'm living on borrowed time.  Next time, I may not be
that lucky.

Need a file server system with some sort of RAID redundancy.  I want to
backup 2 main computers, plus photos.  Maybe this RPI4 too, since that's
what I'm running on, due to the second failure.  If this SSD goes, I'm
gonna be a sad puppy.  This is for home use, so we are not talking
Exabytes.  I'm thinking about 2-4TB of RAID.  Unless of course, RAID is
obsolete these days.  Honestly, I find some of the levels of RAID
confusing.  I want something that will survive a disk failure (or two) out
of the array.  Have any ideas, or can you point me to some place that
discusses this somewhat intelligently?

Are there reasonable systems that one can put together oneself these days?
Can I repurpose an older PC for this purpose?  Or an RPI4?  What are the
gotchas of going this way?

I want to be able to set up a daily rsync or equivalent so we will lose as
little as possible.  At the moment, I'm not thinking about surviving fire
or disaster.  Maybe I should, but I suspect the costs balloon
considerably.  I do not want to backup to the cloud because, plain and
simple, I don't trust it to be fully secure.

Thanks for any and all suggestions.
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[jonhall80]

Bruce,

Yes, you are probably right.   I know enough how banks bundle up mortgages, to 
agree that might be part of the problem.

Yet you might think that since many, many people pay off mortgages or pay off 
mortgages on sales of property every single year that they might have it down 
to a science by now.   It is not like I am the first mortgage than has been 
paid off in the past 30 years..

>From my viewpoint the person at the bank should just push the button on the 
>desk and get a diet coke delivered to them..oh, waitthat is someone 
>else.

> On 03/08/2021 7:03 PM Bruce Labitt  wrote:
>  
>  
> If my experience is a guide, you have a few more months to go.  Once we 
> paid off our mortgage it took almost 6 months to clear everything up.  (That 
> was in late 2018)  What you probably aren't realizing is that they have to 
> hunt down your paperwork.  Your note was probably transferred to dozens of 
> investors who bought and sold paper.  They are tracking it down by going 
> through the chain of possession.  The days of your bank holding your mortgage 
> papers in the local vault are gone forever.  
>  
> But yeah, late a day, they'd call you...  
> 
> On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 6:21 PM < jonhal...@comcast.net 
> mailto:jonhal...@comcast.net > wrote:
> 
> > > I paid off my 30 year mortgage on November 29th, 2020 (two years 
> early) thinking that it would be better not to carry any of it over to the 
> next year.
> > 
> > Then I waited for all of the associated paperwork (escrow payment 
> > refunds for property tax, deed, etc.)  At the end of January I called the 
> > bank.
> > 
> > "Oh yes, it appears you have paid it off.   Well, it takes a little 
> > time."
> > 
> > Then the end of February I called again.
> > 
> > "Oh, yes, we can see the zero principal back in Decemberyes, 
> > you are right...any day now"
> > 
> > Here it is, March 8th, 2021.
> > 
> > If I was two days late on a payment, they hounded me.
> > 
> > They are not using a computer.   They are using quill pens and 
> > parchment.
> > 
> > md
> > > On 03/08/2021 4:08 PM Joshua Judson Rosen < 
> > roz...@hackerposse.com mailto:roz...@hackerposse.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > On 3/8/21 2:16 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> > > > I love this discussion. I've been involved with computer time 
> > since the early 1970s. While at burger King I wrote a standardized set of 
> > time utilities in cobol. Later at Digital I was responsible for the utmp 
> > libraries, and the standard test failed. The issue was that the
> > > > standard test used a future time beyond 2035. Back then tine_t 
> > was a signed 32 bit integer
> > >
> > > I bought a house with a 30-year mortgage in late 2008. My first 
> > house, actually.
> > >
> > > All of the things that people talk about being afraid of with 
> > being a new home-buyer...,
> > > well..., none of them compared to the sense of dread that I felt 
> > when I looked at
> > > the end-date on the mortgage and asked myself:
> > >
> > >   What's the likelihood that this date is going to pass 
> > through a computer
> > >   where time_t is not wider than 32 bits before then?
> > >
> > > So I pay a little extra each month.
> > > Hopefully I can have the account closed and expunged before that 
> > point ;p
> > >
> > > --
> > > Connect with me on the GNU social network: < 
> > https://status.hackerposse.com/rozzin>
> > > Not on the network? Ask me for an invitation to a social hub!
> > > ___
> > > gnhlug-discuss mailing list
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Bruce Labitt]

If my experience is a guide, you have a few more months to go.  Once we
paid off our mortgage it took almost 6 months to clear everything up.
(That was in late 2018)  What you probably aren't realizing is that they
have to hunt down your paperwork.  Your note was probably transferred to
dozens of investors who bought and sold paper.  They are tracking it down
by going through the chain of possession.  The days of your bank holding
your mortgage papers in the local vault are gone forever.

But yeah, late a day, they'd call you...

On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 6:21 PM  wrote:

> I paid off my 30 year mortgage on November 29th, 2020 (two years early)
> thinking that it would be better not to carry any of it over to the next
> year.
>
> Then I waited for all of the associated paperwork (escrow payment refunds
> for property tax, deed, etc.)  At the end of January I called the bank.
>
> "Oh yes, it appears you have paid it off.   Well, it takes a little time."
>
> Then the end of February I called again.
>
> "Oh, yes, we can see the zero principal back in Decemberyes, you are
> right...any day now"
>
> Here it is, March 8th, 2021.
>
> If I was two days late on a payment, they hounded me.
>
> They are not using a computer.   They are using quill pens and parchment.
>
> md
> > On 03/08/2021 4:08 PM Joshua Judson Rosen 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 3/8/21 2:16 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> > > I love this discussion. I've been involved with computer time since
> the early 1970s. While at burger King I wrote a standardized set of time
> utilities in cobol. Later at Digital I was responsible for the utmp
> libraries, and the standard test failed. The issue was that the
> > > standard test used a future time beyond 2035. Back then tine_t was a
> signed 32 bit integer
> >
> > I bought a house with a 30-year mortgage in late 2008. My first house,
> actually.
> >
> > All of the things that people talk about being afraid of with being a
> new home-buyer...,
> > well..., none of them compared to the sense of dread that I felt when I
> looked at
> > the end-date on the mortgage and asked myself:
> >
> >   What's the likelihood that this date is going to pass through a
> computer
> >   where time_t is not wider than 32 bits before then?
> >
> > So I pay a little extra each month.
> > Hopefully I can have the account closed and expunged before that point ;p
> >
> > --
> > Connect with me on the GNU social network: <
> https://status.hackerposse.com/rozzin>
> > Not on the network? Ask me for an invitation to a social hub!
> > ___
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Monday 08 March 2021, Joshua Judson Rosen was heard to say:
>   What's the likelihood that this date is going to pass through a
> computer where time_t is not wider than 32 bits before then?

Hehehehe.

Tovalds was asked about the 2038 problem would be a problem. From 
memory, he said, "It's nothing more difficult than changing the 
counter from 32 bits to 64 bits, and a recompile. I hope people are 
using something better than Linux by then."


- -- 
You may my glories and my state dispose,
But not my griefs; still am I king of those.
 --- William Shakespeare, "Richard II"

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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[jonhall80]

I paid off my 30 year mortgage on November 29th, 2020 (two years early) 
thinking that it would be better not to carry any of it over to the next year.

Then I waited for all of the associated paperwork (escrow payment refunds for 
property tax, deed, etc.)  At the end of January I called the bank.

"Oh yes, it appears you have paid it off.   Well, it takes a little time."

Then the end of February I called again.

"Oh, yes, we can see the zero principal back in Decemberyes, you are 
right...any day now"

Here it is, March 8th, 2021.

If I was two days late on a payment, they hounded me.

They are not using a computer.   They are using quill pens and parchment.

md
> On 03/08/2021 4:08 PM Joshua Judson Rosen  wrote:
> 
>  
> On 3/8/21 2:16 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> > I love this discussion. I've been involved with computer time since the 
> > early 1970s. While at burger King I wrote a standardized set of time 
> > utilities in cobol. Later at Digital I was responsible for the utmp 
> > libraries, and the standard test failed. The issue was that the 
> > standard test used a future time beyond 2035. Back then tine_t was a signed 
> > 32 bit integer
> 
> I bought a house with a 30-year mortgage in late 2008. My first house, 
> actually.
> 
> All of the things that people talk about being afraid of with being a new 
> home-buyer...,
> well..., none of them compared to the sense of dread that I felt when I 
> looked at
> the end-date on the mortgage and asked myself:
> 
>   What's the likelihood that this date is going to pass through a computer
>   where time_t is not wider than 32 bits before then?
> 
> So I pay a little extra each month.
> Hopefully I can have the account closed and expunged before that point ;p
> 
> -- 
> Connect with me on the GNU social network: 
> 
> Not on the network? Ask me for an invitation to a social hub!
> ___
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Jerry Feldman]

 Banks and other financial institutions have long used math packages that
made 2035 moot. Loans and risk computations frequently go 50 years or
longer. I worked for algorithmics for 10 years. We had a C++ customized
package.

--
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Mar 8, 2021, 4:09 PM Joshua Judson Rosen 
wrote:

> On 3/8/21 2:16 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> > I love this discussion. I've been involved with computer time since the
> early 1970s. While at burger King I wrote a standardized set of time
> utilities in cobol. Later at Digital I was responsible for the utmp
> libraries, and the standard test failed. The issue was that the
> > standard test used a future time beyond 2035. Back then tine_t was a
> signed 32 bit integer
>
> I bought a house with a 30-year mortgage in late 2008. My first house,
> actually.
>
> All of the things that people talk about being afraid of with being a new
> home-buyer...,
> well..., none of them compared to the sense of dread that I felt when I
> looked at
> the end-date on the mortgage and asked myself:
>
> What's the likelihood that this date is going to pass through a
> computer
> where time_t is not wider than 32 bits before then?
>
> So I pay a little extra each month.
> Hopefully I can have the account closed and expunged before that point ;p
>
> --
> Connect with me on the GNU social network: <
> https://status.hackerposse.com/rozzin>
> Not on the network? Ask me for an invitation to a social hub!
> ___
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> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Joshua Judson Rosen]

On 3/8/21 2:16 PM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
> I love this discussion. I've been involved with computer time since the early 
> 1970s. While at burger King I wrote a standardized set of time utilities in 
> cobol. Later at Digital I was responsible for the utmp libraries, and the 
> standard test failed. The issue was that the 
> standard test used a future time beyond 2035. Back then tine_t was a signed 
> 32 bit integer

I bought a house with a 30-year mortgage in late 2008. My first house, actually.

All of the things that people talk about being afraid of with being a new 
home-buyer...,
well..., none of them compared to the sense of dread that I felt when I looked 
at
the end-date on the mortgage and asked myself:

What's the likelihood that this date is going to pass through a computer
where time_t is not wider than 32 bits before then?

So I pay a little extra each month.
Hopefully I can have the account closed and expunged before that point ;p

-- 
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Jerry Feldman]

In 2005 bush extended DST to the current dates, but we had DST for many
years before that.

--
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Mar 8, 2021, 2:59 PM Curt Howland  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On Monday 08 March 2021, Joshua Judson Rosen was heard to say:
> > On 3/6/21 9:17 PM, Curt Howland wrote:
> > > I mean, how silly can one be to object to it being dark when you
> > > wake up, and then demanding that everyone else change the time on
> > > their clocks so it's light at 7am the way you want it to be?
> >
> > Isn't that pretty much exactly the _opposite_ of what DST does?
>
> Yes. That is given as a reason to change the clocks. Back during the
> wave of "energy saving measures" in the early 1970s, staying on DST
> through the year was objected to because, and I quote, "Children were
> waiting for the bus in the dark."
>
> It was utterly inconceivable to start school later, to adapt to local
> conditions. No, everyone _else_ had to be changed.
>
> > And I guess
> > by the time *spring* rolls in they've forgot that `winter' even was
> > ever a thing
>
> Just like everyone forgets how to drive in snow over the summer.
>
> - --
> You may my glories and my state dispose,
> But not my griefs; still am I king of those.
>  --- William Shakespeare, "Richard II"
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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> Vh4G+HQLPH4F5qdH3Q3ZB1hDPWPMseQ=
> =AYrj
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Curt Howland]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Monday 08 March 2021, Joshua Judson Rosen was heard to say:
> On 3/6/21 9:17 PM, Curt Howland wrote:
> > I mean, how silly can one be to object to it being dark when you
> > wake up, and then demanding that everyone else change the time on
> > their clocks so it's light at 7am the way you want it to be?
>
> Isn't that pretty much exactly the _opposite_ of what DST does?

Yes. That is given as a reason to change the clocks. Back during the 
wave of "energy saving measures" in the early 1970s, staying on DST 
through the year was objected to because, and I quote, "Children were 
waiting for the bus in the dark."

It was utterly inconceivable to start school later, to adapt to local 
conditions. No, everyone _else_ had to be changed.

> And I guess 
> by the time *spring* rolls in they've forgot that `winter' even was
> ever a thing

Just like everyone forgets how to drive in snow over the summer.

- -- 
You may my glories and my state dispose,
But not my griefs; still am I king of those.
 --- William Shakespeare, "Richard II"

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Vh4G+HQLPH4F5qdH3Q3ZB1hDPWPMseQ=
=AYrj
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Jerry Feldman]

I think DST has outlived its usefulness. There was a proposal to move MA to
the Atlantic Time Zone. There was a more recent proposal for CT to move,
but it makes no sense without NH and ME. I think stability is more
important.

--
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Mar 8, 2021, 2:44 PM Joshua Judson Rosen 
wrote:

> On 3/6/21 9:17 PM, Curt Howland wrote:
> > On Saturday 06 March 2021, Ben Scott was heard to say:
> >> Even that's not enough, because the stupid humans keep changing
> >> what the time zones mean.
> >
> > With GMT as the standard time stamp, one can at least know relative
> > times of files, even if one does not know such real-world details.
> >
> > I've gotten into a couple of heated arguments for/against the idea of
> > using GMT for everything, and then adapting what time things happen
> > to local conditions. The reactions to that idea have been
> > fascinating. Much like the arguments about Daylight Saving.
> >
> > I mean, how silly can one be to object to it being dark when you wake
> > up, and then demanding that everyone else change the time on their
> > clocks so it's light at 7am the way you want it to be?
>
> Isn't that pretty much exactly the _opposite_ of what DST does?
>
> Every Spring, I get delighted that the sun is finally rising early enough
> to make it easy to get up at what's supposed to be `a reasonable time' in
> the morning,
> and I then DST comes in and makes the sun not rise for another hour.
> Ha-ha! Early April Fools'! Another month of dark mornings!
>
> And then all of the news channels are flooded with people opining about
> how much `better' it would be `if we just had DST all year' because
> all they care about is having daylight-fun hours at the _tail end of the
> day_,
> because..., I don't know--they're all unemployed? Or by the end of the day
> they've forgotten how hard it was to get out of the bed and be useful
> that morning? And I guess by the time *spring* rolls in they've forgot
> that `winter' even was ever a thing
>
> --
> Connect with me on the GNU social network: <
> https://status.hackerposse.com/rozzin>
> Not on the network? Ask me for an invitation to a social hub!
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Joshua Judson Rosen]

On 3/6/21 9:17 PM, Curt Howland wrote:
> On Saturday 06 March 2021, Ben Scott was heard to say:
>> Even that's not enough, because the stupid humans keep changing
>> what the time zones mean.
> 
> With GMT as the standard time stamp, one can at least know relative
> times of files, even if one does not know such real-world details.
> 
> I've gotten into a couple of heated arguments for/against the idea of
> using GMT for everything, and then adapting what time things happen
> to local conditions. The reactions to that idea have been
> fascinating. Much like the arguments about Daylight Saving.
> 
> I mean, how silly can one be to object to it being dark when you wake
> up, and then demanding that everyone else change the time on their
> clocks so it's light at 7am the way you want it to be?

Isn't that pretty much exactly the _opposite_ of what DST does?

Every Spring, I get delighted that the sun is finally rising early enough
to make it easy to get up at what's supposed to be `a reasonable time' in the 
morning,
and I then DST comes in and makes the sun not rise for another hour.
Ha-ha! Early April Fools'! Another month of dark mornings!

And then all of the news channels are flooded with people opining about
how much `better' it would be `if we just had DST all year' because
all they care about is having daylight-fun hours at the _tail end of the day_,
because..., I don't know--they're all unemployed? Or by the end of the day
they've forgotten how hard it was to get out of the bed and be useful
that morning? And I guess by the time *spring* rolls in they've forgot
that `winter' even was ever a thing

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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Jerry Feldman]

I love this discussion. I've been involved with computer time since the
early 1970s. While at burger King I wrote a standardized set of time
utilities in cobol. Later at Digital I was responsible for the utmp
libraries, and the standard test failed. The issue was that the standard
test used a future time beyond 2035. Back then tine_t was a signed 32 bit
integer

--
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix http://www.blu.org
PGP key id: 6F6BB6E7
PGP Key fingerprint: 0EDC 2FF5 53A6 8EED 84D1  3050 5715 B88D 6F6
B B6E7

On Mon, Mar 8, 2021, 2:00 PM Joshua Judson Rosen 
wrote:

> On 3/6/21 7:46 PM, Ben Scott wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 9:57 PM Joshua Judson Rosen
> >  wrote:
> >> And as a general word of advice from someone whose been burnt way too
> many times:
> >> if you're going to put timestamps in your filenames, either just use UTC
> >> or explicitly indicate which timezone the timestamps are assuming.
> >
> > Even that's not enough, because the stupid humans keep changing what
> > the time zones mean.  Say you find a file that has a stored time of
> > 2007 MAR 31 17:00 UTC.  If that file was written before 2005, then the
> > offset to US Eastern is 5 hours.  If that file was written after 2005,
> > the offset is 4 hours.  Which did the human mean when they instructed
> > the computer to write the file?  No way of knowing, in the general
> > case.
>
> Well..., I _did_ say "either... or...". The general idea is just `don't
> assume
> that the reader will just know what scale/units you're using without it
> being declared'.
>
> But some things that I really neglected to mention were:
>
> 1) that "indicate which timezone" is itself actually multiple
> different approaches:
>hours offset from UTC, or the _symbolic_ timezone that
> automatically adjusts
>to changing politics.
> 2) if you want to use those stamps to actually _convey
> information_, then
>which one of _those_ you need depends on specifically what
> you're doing:
>sometimes you want to indicate an actual point on the general
> timeline,
>sometimes you want to indicate how something fits into the
> local schedule
>or relates to `solar time' (e.g.: as a _nerd_, I thought it'd
> be a great idea
>to set my digital cameras' clocks to UTC and just never deal
> with DST or
>any other timezone issues when traveling..., and then as a
> _photographer_ I realized
>what a lousy idea that could end up being...).
> 3) sometimes you need to indicate _both_
> 4) you might even need to give your symbolic timezone, your
> timezone offset, _and_ UTC..., _and_
>
> ... BUT: even if you only do any arbitrary one of those things, at least
> you won't end up
> mistakenly overwriting your records due to multiple distinct points in time
> end up generating the same filename.
>
> (the inverse issue, of whether you end up mistakenly _failing to generate
> collisions when you want to_
>   can also be a concern of course; but I'd rather leave that as an
> exercise to the reader..., or to Ben ;p)
>
> I *also* didn't even touch on how much all of this will annoy people who
> like nicely-sorting filenames... ;p
>
> Every once in a while, I go back to try to find a solution to all of the
> other problems that also
> fits in with _that_, and just fail. Basically..., whenever anyone asks me
> "what time is it?".
> And I think I've been at that for 10 years now
> ___
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Joshua Judson Rosen]

On 3/8/21 7:28 AM, John Abreau wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 7:48 PM Ben Scott  > wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 9:57 PM Joshua Judson Rosen
> mailto:roz...@hackerposse.com>> wrote:
>  > And as a general word of advice from someone whose been burnt way too 
> many times:
>  > if you're going to put timestamps in your filenames, either just use 
> UTC
>  > or explicitly indicate which timezone the timestamps are assuming.
> 
> Even that's not enough, because the stupid humans keep changing what
> the time zones mean.  Say you find a file that has a stored time of
> 2007 MAR 31 17:00 UTC.  If that file was written before 2005, then the
> offset to US Eastern is 5 hours.  If that file was written after 2005,
> the offset is 4 hours.  Which did the human mean when they instructed
> the computer to write the file?  No way of knowing, in the general
> case.
> 
> 
> I'd argue that this case does not matter, because the human is making a 
> reference to an event in the future, and it is impossible in principle to 
> anticipate unexpected future changes in such definitions.
> 
> You could plan a vacation in Switzerland in 2030, but if an asteroid 
> obliterates Switzerland in 2028, your vacation plans become null and void. 
> It's not a contingency you need to plan for when making your vacation plans.
Next: Opening the software toolbox,  Prev: File timestamps,  Up: Top

29 Date input formats
*

First, a quote:

  Our units of temporal measurement, from seconds on up to months,
  are so complicated, asymmetrical and disjunctive so as to make
  coherent mental reckoning in time all but impossible.  Indeed, had
  some tyrannical god contrived to enslave our minds to time, to make
  it all but impossible for us to escape subjection to sodden
  routines and unpleasant surprises, he could hardly have done better
  than handing down our present system.  It is like a set of
  trapezoidal building blocks, with no vertical or horizontal
  surfaces, like a language in which the simplest thought demands
  ornate constructions, useless particles and lengthy
  circumlocutions.  Unlike the more successful patterns of language
  and science, which enable us to face experience boldly or at least
  level-headedly, our system of temporal calculation silently and
  persistently encourages our terror of time.

  ... It is as though architects had to measure length in feet, width
  in meters and height in ells; as though basic instruction manuals
  demanded a knowledge of five different languages.  It is no wonder
  then that we often look into our own immediate past or future, last
  Tuesday or a week from Sunday, with feelings of helpless confusion.
  ...

  —Robert Grudin, ‘Time and the Art of Living’.

-Info: (coreutils)Date input formats, 50 lines --Top


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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[Joshua Judson Rosen]

On 3/6/21 7:46 PM, Ben Scott wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 9:57 PM Joshua Judson Rosen
>  wrote:
>> And as a general word of advice from someone whose been burnt way too many 
>> times:
>> if you're going to put timestamps in your filenames, either just use UTC
>> or explicitly indicate which timezone the timestamps are assuming.
> 
> Even that's not enough, because the stupid humans keep changing what
> the time zones mean.  Say you find a file that has a stored time of
> 2007 MAR 31 17:00 UTC.  If that file was written before 2005, then the
> offset to US Eastern is 5 hours.  If that file was written after 2005,
> the offset is 4 hours.  Which did the human mean when they instructed
> the computer to write the file?  No way of knowing, in the general
> case.

Well..., I _did_ say "either... or...". The general idea is just `don't assume
that the reader will just know what scale/units you're using without it being 
declared'.

But some things that I really neglected to mention were:

1) that "indicate which timezone" is itself actually multiple different 
approaches:
   hours offset from UTC, or the _symbolic_ timezone that automatically 
adjusts
   to changing politics.
2) if you want to use those stamps to actually _convey information_, 
then
   which one of _those_ you need depends on specifically what you're 
doing:
   sometimes you want to indicate an actual point on the general 
timeline,
   sometimes you want to indicate how something fits into the local 
schedule
   or relates to `solar time' (e.g.: as a _nerd_, I thought it'd be a 
great idea
   to set my digital cameras' clocks to UTC and just never deal with 
DST or
   any other timezone issues when traveling..., and then as a 
_photographer_ I realized
   what a lousy idea that could end up being...).
3) sometimes you need to indicate _both_
4) you might even need to give your symbolic timezone, your timezone 
offset, _and_ UTC..., _and_

... BUT: even if you only do any arbitrary one of those things, at least you 
won't end up
mistakenly overwriting your records due to multiple distinct points in time
end up generating the same filename.

(the inverse issue, of whether you end up mistakenly _failing to generate 
collisions when you want to_
  can also be a concern of course; but I'd rather leave that as an exercise to 
the reader..., or to Ben ;p)

I *also* didn't even touch on how much all of this will annoy people who like 
nicely-sorting filenames... ;p

Every once in a while, I go back to try to find a solution to all of the other 
problems that also
fits in with _that_, and just fail. Basically..., whenever anyone asks me "what 
time is it?".
And I think I've been at that for 10 years now
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Re: Kind of puzzled about timestamps

[John Abreau]

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 7:48 PM Ben Scott  wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 9:57 PM Joshua Judson Rosen
>  wrote:
> > And as a general word of advice from someone whose been burnt way too
> many times:
> > if you're going to put timestamps in your filenames, either just use UTC
> > or explicitly indicate which timezone the timestamps are assuming.
>
> Even that's not enough, because the stupid humans keep changing what
> the time zones mean.  Say you find a file that has a stored time of
> 2007 MAR 31 17:00 UTC.  If that file was written before 2005, then the
> offset to US Eastern is 5 hours.  If that file was written after 2005,
> the offset is 4 hours.  Which did the human mean when they instructed
> the computer to write the file?  No way of knowing, in the general
> case.
>

I'd argue that this case does not matter, because the human is making a
reference to an event in the future, and it is impossible in principle to
anticipate unexpected future changes in such definitions.

You could plan a vacation in Switzerland in 2030, but if an asteroid
obliterates Switzerland in 2028, your vacation plans become null and void.
It's not a contingency you need to plan for when making your vacation
plans.


-- 
John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix
Email j...@blu.org / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0x920063C6
PGP-Key-Fingerprint A5AD 6BE1 FEFE 8E4F 5C23  C2D0 E885 E17C 9200 63C6
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