Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Drew Van Zandt]

That's basically what a Drobo (http://www.drobo.com/products/drobo.php) is,
only they already considered all of those performance questions for you.

--DTVZ

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Neil Joseph Schelly wrote:

> I'm looking to build a small Shuttle barebone machine into a NAS running
> Linux.  The intent of the machine is to be a networked PC with lots of
> storage in a RAID array, made available over the gigabit network interface
> via Samba, NFS, and maybe iSCSI protocols.  I'm curious what experience
> others have with this sort of stuff in general, but two immediate questions
> come to mind about processor and memory performance.
>
> I can go the low-power, low-heat route and get a single-core processor and
> a
> single memory stick of minimal quantity.  Or I can upgrade a bit, get a
> dual-core processor with 2 sticks of dual-channel memory.  Or something in
> between.  What I don't know is how much impact processor speed, multiple
> cores, memory capacity, and dual-channel memory has on disk I/O, network
> I/O,
> software RAID processing, etc.
>
> I like the idea of a small low-power, low-heat appliance, but will going
> too
> low on those negatively impact performance much?  The cost difference
> between
> a single-core processor with 1GB of memory and a dual-core processor with 2
> sticks of 1GB dual-channel memory is insignificant, so that's not much of a
> concern.
> -N
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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Tom Buskey]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Neil Joseph Schelly wrote:

> I'm looking to build a small Shuttle barebone machine into a NAS running
> Linux.  The intent of the machine is to be a networked PC with lots of
> storage in a RAID array, made available over the gigabit network interface
> via Samba, NFS, and maybe iSCSI protocols.  I'm curious what experience
> others have with this sort of stuff in general, but two immediate questions
> come to mind about processor and memory performance.
>
> I can go the low-power, low-heat route and get a single-core processor and
> a
> single memory stick of minimal quantity.  Or I can upgrade a bit, get a
> dual-core processor with 2 sticks of dual-channel memory.  Or something in
> between.  What I don't know is how much impact processor speed, multiple
> cores, memory capacity, and dual-channel memory has on disk I/O, network
> I/O,
> software RAID processing, etc.
>
> I like the idea of a small low-power, low-heat appliance, but will going
> too
> low on those negatively impact performance much?  The cost difference
> between
> a single-core processor with 1GB of memory and a dual-core processor with 2
> sticks of 1GB dual-channel memory is insignificant, so that's not much of a
> concern.
> -N
>
>
I'm running OpenSolaris on an AMD dual core 165 cpu on a 939 motherboard
with 3 GB of RAM.  It keeps up with gigabit.

I used to run Linux on a Dual PIII 500MHz with 512MB.  It maxed out at 30
MB/s.  The disks and SATA cards got put onto the current system,

It doesn't really answer your question, does it?  There is a threshhold for
matching gigabit ethernet speed though.

What's the power savings a single core will give you vs dual core?  How much
does your electricity cost?
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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Alan Johnson]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Neil Joseph Schelly wrote:

> I'm looking to build a small Shuttle barebone machine into a NAS running
> Linux.  The intent of the machine is to be a networked PC with lots of
> storage in a RAID array, made available over the gigabit network interface
> via Samba, NFS, and maybe iSCSI protocols.  I'm curious what experience
> others have with this sort of stuff in general, but two immediate questions
> come to mind about processor and memory performance.
>
> I can go the low-power, low-heat route and get a single-core processor and
> a
> single memory stick of minimal quantity.  Or I can upgrade a bit, get a
> dual-core processor with 2 sticks of dual-channel memory.  Or something in
> between.  What I don't know is how much impact processor speed, multiple
> cores, memory capacity, and dual-channel memory has on disk I/O, network
> I/O,
> software RAID processing, etc.
>
> I like the idea of a small low-power, low-heat appliance, but will going
> too
> low on those negatively impact performance much?  The cost difference
> between
> a single-core processor with 1GB of memory and a dual-core processor with 2
> sticks of 1GB dual-channel memory is insignificant, so that's not much of a
> concern.
> -N
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>

Any modern processor will be bored for these services, even if you use an
encrypted and compressed file system.  Single core will be plenty, but I
don't know how much it will save you on power.  Focus first on low power
design and then on number of cores.  You may find some multi-cores do better
then some singles.  The Intel Atom is probably your best bet and should
still have plenty of spare processing power.
OK, so MAYBE and Atom won't keep up with GigE if you use compression and
encryption.  It probably depends on the compression and encryption
algorithms. I don't really know, but I bet you will be fine.

Disk IO and then network are going to be your bottlenecks.  More RAM will
help disk IO via the OS's disk cache depending on the usage patterns of the
data store, but most NAS appliances only have a couple hundred MB if you are
lucky.  If you are just using it for backups for steaming media, you can run
very happily with as little as 64MB (assuming no GUI), but you may need more
than that just to install the OS, depending on the distro.  Higher RPM on
disks will of course help IO, but not the power consumption.  SSD will help
both, but not your wallet.  I like the Western Digital Green drives for this
purpose as the only spin at 5400 RPM when they can get away with it and jump
to 7200 RPM when the demand requires it.  Compression will also help disk IO
in most cases, and if you expect a lot of concurrent requests, play around
with ionice on some of your NAS services.

BTW, you might want to check out the FreeNAS project.  From what I
understand, there is nothing in there you can't get in another distro, but
they keep it pretty lean while providing all the services you mentioned on a
fresh install.  Don't take my word for it though.  It has been while since I
looked into it.

Ubuntu Server does a very lean install as well.  Not quite as lean as Debian
(and others), but even at the command line, I find Ubuntu is more friendly.
I think there might have been a file server option on the Jaunty Server
installer, but I don't pay much attention to such things as I like to to a
bare install on a Server and pick the packges I want myself.  Definitely a
Samba option at install, but again, you might bet more than you need or want
that way.  SSH is a good option at install.

You might also consider webmin if you are not hardcore on the command line.
It will ask you if you want to install the relevant packages if it can't
find a service when you access the module, so it makes a nice add on to a
bare Ubuntu Server install.  To install, use "dpkg -i webmin*.deb" then do
an "apt-get -f install" when dpkg fails and apt-get will go fetch the
dependancies and finish up the webmin install.  Once webmin is running, you
need not the command line any more.

I have also heard very good things about ebox (Ubuntu only last I knew) but
I have not been able to access it on my home server yet because the browser
is puking on the cert for some reason and I have not cared to fight with it
yet.

That's my $1.37 (2 cents with inflation).

-- 
Alan Johnson
a...@datdec.com
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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[H. Kurth Bemis]

On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 17:59 -0400, Alan Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Neil Joseph Schelly
>  wrote:
> I'm looking to build a small Shuttle barebone machine into a
> NAS running
> Linux.  The intent of the machine is to be a networked PC with
> lots of
> storage in a RAID array, made available over the gigabit
> network interface
> via Samba, NFS, and maybe iSCSI protocols.  I'm curious what
> experience
> others have with this sort of stuff in general, but two
> immediate questions
> come to mind about processor and memory performance.
> 
> I can go the low-power, low-heat route and get a single-core
> processor and a
> single memory stick of minimal quantity.  Or I can upgrade a
> bit, get a
> dual-core processor with 2 sticks of dual-channel memory.  Or
> something in
> between.  What I don't know is how much impact processor
> speed, multiple
> cores, memory capacity, and dual-channel memory has on disk
> I/O, network I/O,
> software RAID processing, etc.
> 
> I like the idea of a small low-power, low-heat appliance, but
> will going too
> low on those negatively impact performance much?  The cost
> difference between
> a single-core processor with 1GB of memory and a dual-core
> processor with 2
> sticks of 1GB dual-channel memory is insignificant, so that's
> not much of a
> concern.
> -N
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> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
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> 
> Any modern processor will be bored for these services, even if you use
> an encrypted and compressed file system.  Single core will be plenty,
> but I don't know how much it will save you on power.  Focus first on
> low power design and then on number of cores.  You may find some
> multi-cores do better then some singles.  The Intel Atom is probably
> your best bet and should still have plenty of spare processing
> power.  
> OK, so MAYBE and Atom won't keep up with GigE if you use compression
> and encryption.  It probably depends on the compression and encryption
> algorithms. I don't really know, but I bet you will be fine.
> 
> Disk IO and then network are going to be your bottlenecks.  More RAM
> will help disk IO via the OS's disk cache depending on the usage
> patterns of the data store, but most NAS appliances only have a couple
> hundred MB if you are lucky.  If you are just using it for backups for
> steaming media, you can run very happily with as little as 64MB
> (assuming no GUI), but you may need more than that just to install the
> OS, depending on the distro.  Higher RPM on disks will of course help
> IO, but not the power consumption.  SSD will help both, but not your
> wallet.  I like the Western Digital Green drives for this purpose as
> the only spin at 5400 RPM when they can get away with it and jump to
> 7200 RPM when the demand requires it.  Compression will also help disk
> IO in most cases, and if you expect a lot of concurrent requests, play
> around with ionice on some of your NAS services.
> 
> BTW, you might want to check out the FreeNAS project.  From what I
> understand, there is nothing in there you can't get in another distro,
> but they keep it pretty lean while providing all the services you
> mentioned on a fresh install.  Don't take my word for it though.  It
> has been while since I looked into it.
> 
> Ubuntu Server does a very lean install as well.  Not quite as lean as
> Debian (and others), but even at the command line, I find Ubuntu is
> more friendly.  I think there might have been a file server option on
> the Jaunty Server installer, but I don't pay much attention to such
> things as I like to to a bare install on a Server and pick the packges
> I want myself.  Definitely a Samba option at install, but again, you
> might bet more than you need or want that way.  SSH is a good option
> at install.
> 
> You might also consider webmin if you are not hardcore on the command
> line.  It will ask you if you want to install the relevant packages if
> it can't find a service when you access the module, so it makes a nice
> add on to a bare Ubuntu Server install.  To install, use "dpkg -i
> webmin*.deb" then do an "apt-get -f install" when dpkg fails and
> apt-get will go fetch the dependancies and finish up the webmin
> install.  Once webmin is running, you need not the command line any
> more.
> 
> I have also heard very good things about ebox (Ubuntu only last I
> knew) but I have not been able to access it on my home server yet
> because the browser is puking on the cert for some reason and I have
> not cared to fight with it yet.
> 
> That's my $1.37 (2 cents with inflation).
> 
> -- 

Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Neil Joseph Schelly]

On Thursday 17 September 2009 05:59:34 pm Alan Johnson wrote:
> Any modern processor will be bored for these services, even if you use an
> encrypted and compressed file system.  Single core will be plenty, but I
> don't know how much it will save you on power.  

Single-core processor: $40 (35W)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116039
Dual-core processor: $50 (65W)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116075

30W is decent savings.

> Ubuntu Server does a very lean install as well.  Not quite as lean as
> Debian (and others), but even at the command line, I find Ubuntu is more
> friendly. 

I'm a Debian guy.  It's my intent to build it with Debian rather than a 
specific NAS distro.  I prefer turning Debian boxes into what I want than 
letting someone else do it for me.

Thanks...
-N
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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Alex Hewitt]

Drew Van Zandt wrote:
> That's basically what a Drobo 
> (http://www.drobo.com/products/drobo.php) is, only they already 
> considered all of those performance questions for you.
>
> --DTVZ
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Neil Joseph Schelly 
> mailto:n...@jenandneil.com>> wrote:
>
> I'm looking to build a small Shuttle barebone machine into a NAS
> running
> Linux.  The intent of the machine is to be a networked PC with lots of
> storage in a RAID array, made available over the gigabit network
> interface
> via Samba, NFS, and maybe iSCSI protocols.  I'm curious what
> experience
> others have with this sort of stuff in general, but two immediate
> questions
> come to mind about processor and memory performance.
>
> I can go the low-power, low-heat route and get a single-core
> processor and a
> single memory stick of minimal quantity.  Or I can upgrade a bit,
> get a
> dual-core processor with 2 sticks of dual-channel memory.  Or
> something in
> between.  What I don't know is how much impact processor speed,
> multiple
> cores, memory capacity, and dual-channel memory has on disk I/O,
> network I/O,
> software RAID processing, etc.
>
> I like the idea of a small low-power, low-heat appliance, but will
> going too
> low on those negatively impact performance much?  The cost
> difference between
> a single-core processor with 1GB of memory and a dual-core
> processor with 2
> sticks of 1GB dual-channel memory is insignificant, so that's not
> much of a
> concern.
> -N
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>
>
> 
>
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>   
There seem to be a lot of unhappy Drobo users if Newegg's customer 
reviews are anything to go buy. Take a look here:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822240010

I have learned the hard way to be very mindful of the customer reviews 
on Newegg. If the unhappy customers get to the 20% or higher level you 
need to make sure their complaints don't apply to your situation.

-Alex





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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Jerry Feldman]

My boss bought a Western Digital MyBook World Edition with 4TB (2TB in
RAID1) for use as a backup device so we can free up some of our
expensive SCSI drives. For $600, this is a decent buy. While it is set
up for Windows, it runs Linux and has sshd set up so you can enable it
via the web interface. While rsync v3 is installed, some other utilities
are not, so it is best to install optware to get things like rsnapshot,
sudo, and a decent cron. However, it is slow. I am seeing about 6GB/HR,
so it works fine as a backup device because rsnapshot uses rsync with
the --link-dest flag, so subsequent backups transfer only incrementals.
However, I would NOT recommend it as an NFS or SAMBA server unless you
really want to enforce speed limits on your network :-)

On 09/17/2009 04:09 PM, Neil Joseph Schelly wrote:
> I'm looking to build a small Shuttle barebone machine into a NAS running 
> Linux.  The intent of the machine is to be a networked PC with lots of 
> storage in a RAID array, made available over the gigabit network interface 
> via Samba, NFS, and maybe iSCSI protocols.  I'm curious what experience 
> others have with this sort of stuff in general, but two immediate questions 
> come to mind about processor and memory performance.
>
> I can go the low-power, low-heat route and get a single-core processor and a 
> single memory stick of minimal quantity.  Or I can upgrade a bit, get a 
> dual-core processor with 2 sticks of dual-channel memory.  Or something in 
> between.  What I don't know is how much impact processor speed, multiple 
> cores, memory capacity, and dual-channel memory has on disk I/O, network I/O, 
> software RAID processing, etc.
>
> I like the idea of a small low-power, low-heat appliance, but will going too 
> low on those negatively impact performance much?  The cost difference between 
> a single-core processor with 1GB of memory and a dual-core processor with 2 
> sticks of 1GB dual-channel memory is insignificant, so that's not much of a 
> concern.
> -N
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>
>   


-- 
Jerry Feldman 
Boston Linux and Unix
PGP key id: 537C5846
PGP Key fingerprint: 3D1B 8377 A3C0 A5F2 ECBB  CA3B 4607 4319 537C 5846




signature.asc
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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Alan Johnson]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 6:17 PM, H. Kurth Bemis wrote:

> (Alan - I knew you had to get a plug for webmin in somewhere! :])
>

When the only tool you have is a hammer...  ;-)  Speaking of plugs for
webmin, have I mentioned how pluggable it is?  w!  ;-p

-- 
Alan Johnson
a...@datdec.com
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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Alan Johnson]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Neil Joseph Schelly wrote:

> Single-core processor: $40 (35W)
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116039
> Dual-coreprocessor:
>  $50 (65W)
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116075
>
> 30W is decent savings.
>

Yes, but keep in mind those numbers are the Thermal Design Power of the
chips, which is the maximum heat dissipation.  If the cores are the exact
same technology, then yes, you will get better power performance out of the
single core.  However, if that the 65W TDP chip is well designed and has a
more efficient cores, one of them will essentially be off and draw almost no
power, while the other core averages much less power do the same amount of
processing than the single core.

I don't know if this is the case with these, but you might look at some
thing a little nicer than a Celeron with a similar TDP so that the average
processing power use is kept lower.  Does that make sense?  Maybe Celerons
are nicer now, but I was turned off of that brand when I found a 1.8 Ghz
Athlon was ararbitrarily more capable than a 2.8Ghz Celeron.  I also found
using a power meter that use much less kWh to do the same amount of work,
but I really don't think that old 2.8Ghz Celeron had a TDP anywhere near as
low as 35W.


>
> > Ubuntu Server does a very lean install as well.  Not quite as lean as
> > Debian (and others), but even at the command line, I find Ubuntu is more
> > friendly.
>
> I'm a Debian guy.  It's my intent to build it with Debian rather than a
> specific NAS distro.  I prefer turning Debian boxes into what I want than
> letting someone else do it for me.
>

Rock on.  Nothing wrong with that in my book.  If you are a Debian guy, then
I expect you don't need webmin either. =)

-- 
Alan Johnson
a...@datdec.com
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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Ted Roche]

On 09/17/2009 07:32 PM, Neil Joseph Schelly wrote:
> Single-core processor: $40 (35W)
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116039
> Dual-core processor: $50 (65W)
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116075
>
> 30W is decent savings.
>

How about a further step down, to the Atom? Supposedly, this entire mobo 
runs at 40W

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153122

(No direct experience with this mobo, just a "for-example".) I note some 
of the "Windows Home Servers" from Asus (and maybe HP?) are running Atoms.

-- 
Ted Roche
Ted Roche&  Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com

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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Neil Joseph Schelly]

On Thursday 17 September 2009 06:17:39 pm H. Kurth Bemis wrote:
> Take a look at LogicSupply (logicsupply.com).  They have a pretty good
> selection of compact systems.  Atom based systems too.

I was looking at Intel Core-based architectures and processors because I aim 
to use an ideal little Shuttle box for this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101070

It's got room for 4 SATA drives, no display card (it'll run headless), and 2 
PCI-x and 2 eSATA connectors for further expansion.  A lot of the other 
barebones boxes, like at logicsupply.com, don't have room for many or any 
drives.
-N
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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Alex Hewitt]

Neil Joseph Schelly wrote:
> On Thursday 17 September 2009 06:17:39 pm H. Kurth Bemis wrote:
>   
>> Take a look at LogicSupply (logicsupply.com).  They have a pretty good
>> selection of compact systems.  Atom based systems too.
>> 
>
> I was looking at Intel Core-based architectures and processors because I aim 
> to use an ideal little Shuttle box for this:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101070
>
> It's got room for 4 SATA drives, no display card (it'll run headless), and 2 
> PCI-x and 2 eSATA connectors for further expansion.  A lot of the other 
> barebones boxes, like at logicsupply.com, don't have room for many or any 
> drives.
> -N
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>   

Another alternative that I have had some experience with is Aopen's Mini 
PC MP945-VX. I've got 4 of these systems running with almost excellent 
reliability. The systems I built had Intel dual core CPUs, 120 GB SATA 
2.5 inch hard drives and 1 GB of RAM. After two years one system lost 
it's hard drive which I was able to RMA to Seagate and replace. The 
systems run quite cool and have plenty of punch. The systems I installed 
also had blue tooth/802.11b/g adapters.  Another alternative of course 
is Apple's Mac Mini running Windows.

-Alex


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Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Drew Van Zandt]

FYI, a friend of mine who's Our Sort (IT professional) has a Drobo at home,
and had a few things to say about it:
1) It rocks, especially lately when he's been experiencing regular
brownouts.
2) It's Linux underneath the shiny custom box, and not difficult to get ssh,
Perl, and userland NFS running.
3) It's as fast as he'd expect a modest home Linux system doing the same
thing to be.

--DTVZ

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 8:21 PM, Alex Hewitt wrote:

> Drew Van Zandt wrote:
> > That's basically what a Drobo
> > (http://www.drobo.com/products/drobo.php) is, only they already
> > considered all of those performance questions for you.
> >
> > --DTVZ
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Neil Joseph Schelly
> > mailto:n...@jenandneil.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I'm looking to build a small Shuttle barebone machine into a NAS
> > running
> > Linux.  The intent of the machine is to be a networked PC with lots
> of
> > storage in a RAID array, made available over the gigabit network
> > interface
> > via Samba, NFS, and maybe iSCSI protocols.  I'm curious what
> > experience
> > others have with this sort of stuff in general, but two immediate
> > questions
> > come to mind about processor and memory performance.
> >
> > I can go the low-power, low-heat route and get a single-core
> > processor and a
> > single memory stick of minimal quantity.  Or I can upgrade a bit,
> > get a
> > dual-core processor with 2 sticks of dual-channel memory.  Or
> > something in
> > between.  What I don't know is how much impact processor speed,
> > multiple
> > cores, memory capacity, and dual-channel memory has on disk I/O,
> > network I/O,
> > software RAID processing, etc.
> >
> > I like the idea of a small low-power, low-heat appliance, but will
> > going too
> > low on those negatively impact performance much?  The cost
> > difference between
> > a single-core processor with 1GB of memory and a dual-core
> > processor with 2
> > sticks of 1GB dual-channel memory is insignificant, so that's not
> > much of a
> > concern.
> > -N
> > ___
> > gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> > gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org  gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org>
> > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > ___
> > gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> > gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
> >
> There seem to be a lot of unhappy Drobo users if Newegg's customer
> reviews are anything to go buy. Take a look here:
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822240010
>
> I have learned the hard way to be very mindful of the customer reviews
> on Newegg. If the unhappy customers get to the 20% or higher level you
> need to make sure their complaints don't apply to your situation.
>
> -Alex
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Webmin, was: Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Brian]

Alan Johnson wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 6:17 PM, H. Kurth Bemis   > wrote:
> 
> (Alan - I knew you had to get a plug for webmin in somewhere! :])
> 
> 
> When the only tool you have is a hammer...  ;-)  Speaking of plugs
> for webmin, have I mentioned how pluggable it is?  w!  ;-p

As Alan knows, I also love Webmin

...but speaking of pluggable, anyone try Usermin yet?

http://www.webmin.com/usermin.html

>From the web site:

> Usermin is a web-based interface for webmail, password changing, mail
> filters, fetchmail and much more. It is designed for use by regular
> non-root users on a Unix system, and limits them to tasks that they
> would be able to perform if logged in via SSH or at the console.

If you've got non-techie users on your *nix system, this might be handy.

Brian

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Re: Webmin, was: Re: Linux as a NAS performance questions

[Derek Atkins]

Brian  writes:

> ...but speaking of pluggable, anyone try Usermin yet?
>
> http://www.webmin.com/usermin.html

I have it installed; I use it so that users can remotely change their
password.  (I've disabled all other plugins).  However it seems to have
a problem with the SSL certificate.  It was working for a while but
somehow the cert got mangled and now says it's for "*" instead of the
domain name in question.  I haven't had the time to look into it or try
to fix it.  *shrugs*

-derek

-- 
   Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
   Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
   URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH
   warl...@mit.eduPGP key available
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