Should we really translate legal notices?
Hello! I'd like to raise a question which was already discussed in gnome-i18n with no end result [1] in legal-l...@gnome.org hence this email. Recently one of Gnome localizers, Andika Triwidada, asked in gnome-i18n if we should really translate legal notices found in Gnome software translation catalogues. He stated that there is a policy for this in Fedora Project [2] which states that asks translators not to translate legal notices since such translations are risky if not approved by professional lawyers (which is of course not the case for 99% of Gnome translations). Localization participants tried to find any related policy on Gnome Wiki pages with no success. Some translators stated that they translate everything put in translation catalogues, legal notices included. It would be great if Gnome legal experts will discuss this problem in more detail and end up with final policy for translators. Below are some examples of such translation messages. They are quite common in Gnome applications translation catalogues. #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1153 msgid "" "Brasero is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the " "terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software " "Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later " "version." msgstr "" #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1158 msgid "" "Brasero is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY " "WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS " "FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more " "details." msgstr "" #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1163 msgid "" "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with " "Brasero; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin " "Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA" msgstr "" [1]: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2010-April/msg00193.html [2]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/FAQ#Should_I_translate_legal_notices.3F ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
I will look into this; thank you for bringing it up. Luis On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Ihar Hrachyshka wrote: > Hello! > > I'd like to raise a question which was already discussed in gnome-i18n > with no end result [1] in legal-l...@gnome.org hence this email. > > Recently one of Gnome localizers, Andika Triwidada, asked in gnome-i18n > if we should really translate legal notices found in Gnome software > translation catalogues. He stated that there is a policy for this in > Fedora Project [2] which states that asks translators not to translate > legal notices since such translations are risky if not approved by > professional lawyers (which is of course not the case for 99% of Gnome > translations). > > Localization participants tried to find any related policy on Gnome Wiki > pages with no success. Some translators stated that they translate > everything put in translation catalogues, legal notices included. > > It would be great if Gnome legal experts will discuss this problem in > more detail and end up with final policy for translators. > > Below are some examples of such translation messages. They are quite > common in Gnome applications translation catalogues. > > #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1153 > msgid "" > "Brasero is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the > " > "terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software " > "Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later " > "version." > msgstr "" > > #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1158 > msgid "" > "Brasero is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY " > "WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS " > "FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more " > "details." > msgstr "" > > #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1163 > msgid "" > "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with > " > "Brasero; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin " > "Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA" > msgstr "" > > [1]: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2010-April/msg00193.html > [2]: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/FAQ#Should_I_translate_legal_notices.3F > > ___ > legal-list mailing list > legal-l...@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/legal-list > ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
I am no expert but the first thing that comes to mind is adding an extra disclaimer, which states, that in cases where translation differs from the original, the original superseedes any translation. Mattias Ühel kenal päeval, T, 2010-05-04 kell 14:41, kirjutas Ihar Hrachyshka: > Hello! > > I'd like to raise a question which was already discussed in gnome-i18n > with no end result [1] in legal-l...@gnome.org hence this email. > > Recently one of Gnome localizers, Andika Triwidada, asked in gnome-i18n > if we should really translate legal notices found in Gnome software > translation catalogues. He stated that there is a policy for this in > Fedora Project [2] which states that asks translators not to translate > legal notices since such translations are risky if not approved by > professional lawyers (which is of course not the case for 99% of Gnome > translations). > > Localization participants tried to find any related policy on Gnome Wiki > pages with no success. Some translators stated that they translate > everything put in translation catalogues, legal notices included. > > It would be great if Gnome legal experts will discuss this problem in > more detail and end up with final policy for translators. > > Below are some examples of such translation messages. They are quite > common in Gnome applications translation catalogues. > > #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1153 > msgid "" > "Brasero is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the > " > "terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software " > "Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later " > "version." > msgstr "" > > #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1158 > msgid "" > "Brasero is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY " > "WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS " > "FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more " > "details." > msgstr "" > > #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1163 > msgid "" > "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with > " > "Brasero; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin " > "Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA" > msgstr "" > > [1]: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2010-April/msg00193.html > [2]: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/FAQ#Should_I_translate_legal_notices.3F > > ___ > gnome-i18n mailing list > gnome-i18n@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
That is exactly the way to go, this is used also for international contracts. The original language is the one that has legal binding, the other one is to be seen as an "informative translation". Sabine On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Mattias Põldaru wrote: > I am no expert but the first thing that comes to mind is adding an extra > disclaimer, which states, that in cases where translation differs from > the original, the original superseedes any translation. > > Mattias > > ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Fo now, we have translated disclaimer/notice only while using localized interface. On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 09:20 +0200, Sabine Cretella wrote: > That is exactly the way to go, this is used also for international > contracts. The original language is the one that has legal binding, > the other one is to be seen as an "informative translation". > > Sabine > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Mattias Põldaru > wrote: > I am no expert but the first thing that comes to mind is > adding an extra > disclaimer, which states, that in cases where translation > differs from > the original, the original superseedes any translation. > > Mattias > > ___ > gnome-i18n mailing list > gnome-i18n@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
2010/5/5 Ihar Hrachyshka : > Fo now, we have translated disclaimer/notice only while using localized > interface. > > On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 09:20 +0200, Sabine Cretella wrote: >> That is exactly the way to go, this is used also for international >> contracts. The original language is the one that has legal binding, >> the other one is to be seen as an "informative translation". >> >> Sabine >> >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Mattias Põldaru >> wrote: >> I am no expert but the first thing that comes to mind is >> adding an extra >> disclaimer, which states, that in cases where translation >> differs from >> the original, the original superseedes any translation. >> >> Mattias In our team we do translate legal notices, because we want to rise awarness about them. If we don't, I think we wouldn't be better than Microsoft which writes such nonsense in EULA. I want people to know their freedoms to use open source and free software. You'll never know if people read them or not, or do they care or not. Cheers, Peter. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
p.s. we finansed legal translation of GPL license. Just my two cents, Peter. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Hi! > That is exactly the way to go, this is used also for international > contracts. The original language is the one that has legal binding, the > other one is to be seen as an "informative translation". How could this be solved practically? The untranslated notice is not available to the user in the translated user interface unless he does dirty hacks like starting the application with LANG=C. Johannes ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
We could possibly put both English and localized texts in About dialog. Then we should make sure About dialog still looks ok and English locale users don't see two identical texts there. On Wed, 2010-05-05 at 09:18 +, j...@jsschmid.de wrote: > Hi! > > > That is exactly the way to go, this is used also for international > > contracts. The original language is the one that has legal binding, the > > other one is to be seen as an "informative translation". > > How could this be solved practically? The untranslated notice is not > available to the user in the translated user interface unless he does > dirty hacks like starting the application with LANG=C. > > Johannes > > ___ > gnome-i18n mailing list > gnome-i18n@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Hello, I agree with "not to translate"! But there should be a string in every translation with a link to the site, where professionally translated document is updated by approved translators. There is such a site in Slovenian language! M! On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Ihar Hrachyshka wrote: > Hello! > > I'd like to raise a question which was already discussed in gnome-i18n > with no end result [1] in legal-l...@gnome.org hence this email. > > Recently one of Gnome localizers, Andika Triwidada, asked in gnome-i18n > if we should really translate legal notices found in Gnome software > translation catalogues. He stated that there is a policy for this in > Fedora Project [2] which states that asks translators not to translate > legal notices since such translations are risky if not approved by > professional lawyers (which is of course not the case for 99% of Gnome > translations). > > Localization participants tried to find any related policy on Gnome Wiki > pages with no success. Some translators stated that they translate > everything put in translation catalogues, legal notices included. > > It would be great if Gnome legal experts will discuss this problem in > more detail and end up with final policy for translators. > > Below are some examples of such translation messages. They are quite > common in Gnome applications translation catalogues. > > #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1153 > msgid "" > "Brasero is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the > " > "terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software " > "Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later " > "version." > msgstr "" > > #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1158 > msgid "" > "Brasero is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY " > "WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS " > "FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more " > "details." > msgstr "" > > #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1163 > msgid "" > "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with > " > "Brasero; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin " > "Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA" > msgstr "" > > [1]: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2010-April/msg00193.html > [2]: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/FAQ#Should_I_translate_legal_notices.3F > > ___ > gnome-i18n mailing list > gnome-i18n@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n > ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
W dniu 04.05.2010 13:41, Ihar Hrachyshka pisze: Recently one of Gnome localizers, Andika Triwidada, asked in gnome-i18n if we should really translate legal notices found in Gnome software translation catalogues. He stated that there is a policy for this in Fedora Project [2] which states that asks translators not to translate legal notices since such translations are risky if not approved by professional lawyers (which is of course not the case for 99% of Gnome translations). Fedora Project has no such policy. We translate legal notices like GPL notice in About dialogs, as every other FLOSS project do. This FAQ entry might be misleading, because it not defines "legal notice", which I believe in this case is actually just [1] and nothing more. I'm sorry for any possible confusion. [1] http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora#export-regulations -- Piotr Drąg Fedora Localization Steering Committee Member http://raven.pmail.pl ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Hallo All In the Danish team we have translated legal notices under the assumption that if it came to legal disputes the legal system would automatically default to the original text. If that is not the case, then we need another solution. My opinion on the matter is this: I think these legal texts should be translated, because the licenses are so incredibly important for the nature of free software I think non-english speaking people should be able to read them. I think someone already mentioned in the other thread, that FSF already has a little piece of text that we should add to the legal text that explains that translations are for informative purposes only and that in legal matters only the original text apply. So in my mind we should simply add that extra bit of text in all the appropriate strings (off course no more than once per application)* and that would be it. If some localization teams don't want to translate them, they are free to, and that ones that want to can do it right. Concerning Johannes comment about the availability of the original text to the users, I will remind you that the GPL legals notices already have information that explains to you how you can get your hands on the original text.: "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with " "this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple " "Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA." So if you really NEED to get the original text, then you should be able to find it in the source package, and if that is not the case simply send a letter to the FSF (it is off course way easier to look up on the internet, but the point is that if you really NEED it, i.e. because you are considering suing someone, you should be able to find it.) Regards Kenneth Nielsen * On a more technical note: That will automatically make the strings fuzzy and hence alleviate the situation of possible doing something wrong immediately. After asking module maintainers to do this on their own, we should quite easily be able to make a script that can locate modules where this has not been updated and clean up the remaining strings. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Hi all! I have a technical question: is it possible to make all GNOME modules to use uniform legal notice message strings located somewhere in common library (gtk? libgnome?) I mean those messages found in About dialog. They are quite pretty the same (just subtitute program name with %s) and it will reduce module catalogs a little. It will also give us a single way to update all these messages at once. F.e. we had situation in the past when FSF address was changed, and we needed every module maintainer to update the info in his own space rather than update it in single common place. Is there a chance to see it sometime in the future? On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 11:59 +0200, Kenneth Nielsen wrote: > Hallo All > > In the Danish team we have translated legal notices under the > assumption that if it came to legal disputes the legal system would > automatically default to the original text. If that is not the case, > then we need another solution. > > My opinion on the matter is this: > > I think these legal texts should be translated, because the licenses > are so incredibly important for the nature of free software I think > non-english speaking people should be able to read them. I think > someone already mentioned in the other thread, that FSF already has a > little piece of text that we should add to the legal text that > explains that translations are for informative purposes only and that > in legal matters only the original text apply. > > So in my mind we should simply add that extra bit of text in all the > appropriate strings (off course no more than once per application)* > and that would be it. If some localization teams don't want to > translate them, they are free to, and that ones that want to can do it > right. > > Concerning Johannes comment about the availability of the original > text to the users, I will remind you that the GPL legals notices > already have information that explains to you how you can get your > hands on the original text.: > > "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with > " > "this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple > " > "Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA." > > So if you really NEED to get the original text, then you should be > able to find it in the source package, and if that is not the case > simply send a letter to the FSF (it is off course way easier to look > up on the internet, but the point is that if you really NEED it, i.e. > because you are considering suing someone, you should be able to find > it.) > > Regards Kenneth Nielsen > > * On a more technical note: That will automatically make the strings > fuzzy and hence alleviate the situation of possible doing something > wrong immediately. After asking module maintainers to do this on their > own, we should quite easily be able to make a script that can locate > modules where this has not been updated and clean up the remaining > strings. > ___ > gnome-i18n mailing list > gnome-i18n@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Yes, we'll reduce every module for about 4 strings in size + get higher quality of About dialogs translation since we can make sure it's consistent between different applications. On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 12:40 +0200, Fran Dieguez wrote: > O Mar, 18-05-2010 ás 13:13 +0300, Ihar Hrachyshka escribiu: > > Hi all! > > > > I have a technical question: is it possible to make all GNOME modules to > > use uniform legal notice message strings located somewhere in common > > library (gtk? libgnome?) > Oh! This could be very useful, at Galician translations we translate the > legal notices and there just a few differences between legal notices > (app name, and maybe version). > > > ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
O Mar, 18-05-2010 ás 13:13 +0300, Ihar Hrachyshka escribiu: > Hi all! > > I have a technical question: is it possible to make all GNOME modules to > use uniform legal notice message strings located somewhere in common > library (gtk? libgnome?) Oh! This could be very useful, at Galician translations we translate the legal notices and there just a few differences between legal notices (app name, and maybe version). ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Op dinsdag 18-05-2010 om 13:13 uur [tijdzone +0300], schreef Ihar Hrachyshka: > I have a technical question: is it possible to make all GNOME modules to > use uniform legal notice message strings located somewhere in common > library (gtk? libgnome?) > > I mean those messages found in About dialog. They are quite pretty the > same (just subtitute program name with %s) and it will reduce module > catalogs a little. It will also give us a single way to update all these > messages at once. F.e. we had situation in the past when FSF address was > changed, and we needed every module maintainer to update the info in his > own space rather than update it in single common place. > > Is there a chance to see it sometime in the future? Hi, I think this bug is relevant: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336225 — Wouter signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Luis Villa wrote: > I will look into this; thank you for bringing it up. My apologies for taking so long. After some thought, what I and our counsel would recommend from a legal perspective, at least for (L)GPL apps, is giving the following text twice, once in English and the other in the translated language: " Copyright (C) This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY. The program is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions. Click here for details. [link to license]" If the translated license exists on the FSF website, then 'link to license' should point at that. Translators should not translate the full license themselves- if they want to translate it, they should talk to the FSF and work with them to create an official translation. If there is no translated license, then the license link should be to the English license. I definitely recommend doing this through the toolkit so that the text remains consistent throughout the platform. Let me know if this makes sense or needs clarification- Luis > Luis > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Ihar Hrachyshka > wrote: >> Hello! >> >> I'd like to raise a question which was already discussed in gnome-i18n >> with no end result [1] in legal-l...@gnome.org hence this email. >> >> Recently one of Gnome localizers, Andika Triwidada, asked in gnome-i18n >> if we should really translate legal notices found in Gnome software >> translation catalogues. He stated that there is a policy for this in >> Fedora Project [2] which states that asks translators not to translate >> legal notices since such translations are risky if not approved by >> professional lawyers (which is of course not the case for 99% of Gnome >> translations). >> >> Localization participants tried to find any related policy on Gnome Wiki >> pages with no success. Some translators stated that they translate >> everything put in translation catalogues, legal notices included. >> >> It would be great if Gnome legal experts will discuss this problem in >> more detail and end up with final policy for translators. >> >> Below are some examples of such translation messages. They are quite >> common in Gnome applications translation catalogues. >> >> #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1153 >> msgid "" >> "Brasero is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under >> the " >> "terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software " >> "Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later " >> "version." >> msgstr "" >> >> #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1158 >> msgid "" >> "Brasero is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY " >> "WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS " >> "FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more " >> "details." >> msgstr "" >> >> #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1163 >> msgid "" >> "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along >> with " >> "Brasero; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin " >> "Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA" >> msgstr "" >> >> [1]: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2010-April/msg00193.html >> [2]: >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/FAQ#Should_I_translate_legal_notices.3F >> >> ___ >> legal-list mailing list >> legal-l...@gnome.org >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/legal-list >> > ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Il giorno mar, 08/06/2010 alle 20.13 -0700, Luis Villa ha scritto: > My apologies for taking so long. After some thought, what I and our > counsel would recommend from a legal perspective, at least for (L)GPL > apps, is giving the following text twice, once in English and the > other in the translated language: > > " Copyright (C) > This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY. The program is free > software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain > conditions. Click here for details. [link to license]" > > If the translated license exists on the FSF website, then 'link to > license' should point at that. Translators should not translate the > full license themselves- if they want to translate it, they should > talk to the FSF and work with them to create an official translation. > If there is no translated license, then the license link should be to > the English license. > > I definitely recommend doing this through the toolkit so that the text > remains consistent throughout the platform. Did someone yet filed a bug against gtk+/glib? ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Op donderdag 10-06-2010 om 13:08 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Luca Ferretti: > Il giorno mar, 08/06/2010 alle 20.13 -0700, Luis Villa ha scritto: > > I definitely recommend doing this through the toolkit so that the text > > remains consistent throughout the platform. > > Did someone yet filed a bug against gtk+/glib? Earlier in this thread (message from May 19) I referenced this bug: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336225 -- — Wouter signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
2010-06-09 05:13 keltezéssel, Luis Villa írta: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Luis Villa wrote: I will look into this; thank you for bringing it up. My apologies for taking so long. After some thought, what I and our counsel would recommend from a legal perspective, at least for (L)GPL apps, is giving the following text twice, once in English and the other in the translated language: Could you please elaborate on why is it necessary to have this short notice in two languages? I can not imagine why and how would be this good, I never saw anything like that - but this is probably just me being young and inexperienced :). Adding redundancy here does not seem to be useful... Regards Gabor Kelemen " Copyright (C) This program comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY. The program is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions. Click here for details. [link to license]" If the translated license exists on the FSF website, then 'link to license' should point at that. Translators should not translate the full license themselves- if they want to translate it, they should talk to the FSF and work with them to create an official translation. If there is no translated license, then the license link should be to the English license. I definitely recommend doing this through the toolkit so that the text remains consistent throughout the platform. Let me know if this makes sense or needs clarification- Luis Luis On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Ihar Hrachyshka wrote: Hello! I'd like to raise a question which was already discussed in gnome-i18n with no end result [1] in legal-l...@gnome.org hence this email. Recently one of Gnome localizers, Andika Triwidada, asked in gnome-i18n if we should really translate legal notices found in Gnome software translation catalogues. He stated that there is a policy for this in Fedora Project [2] which states that asks translators not to translate legal notices since such translations are risky if not approved by professional lawyers (which is of course not the case for 99% of Gnome translations). Localization participants tried to find any related policy on Gnome Wiki pages with no success. Some translators stated that they translate everything put in translation catalogues, legal notices included. It would be great if Gnome legal experts will discuss this problem in more detail and end up with final policy for translators. Below are some examples of such translation messages. They are quite common in Gnome applications translation catalogues. #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1153 msgid "" "Brasero is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the" "terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software" "Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later" "version." msgstr "" #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1158 msgid "" "Brasero is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY" "WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS" "FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more" "details." msgstr "" #: ../src/brasero-app.c:1163 msgid "" "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with" "Brasero; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin" "Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA" msgstr "" [1]: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2010-April/msg00193.html [2]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/FAQ#Should_I_translate_legal_notices.3F ___ legal-list mailing list legal-l...@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/legal-list ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Gabor Kelemen wrote: > 2010-06-09 05:13 keltezéssel, Luis Villa írta: >> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Luis Villa wrote: >> >>> >>> I will look into this; thank you for bringing it up. >>> >> >> My apologies for taking so long. After some thought, what I and our >> counsel would recommend from a legal perspective, at least for (L)GPL >> apps, is giving the following text twice, once in English and the >> other in the translated language: >> >> > > Could you please elaborate on why is it necessary to have this short notice > in two languages? > I can not imagine why and how would be this good, I never saw anything like > that - but this is probably just me being young and inexperienced :). Adding > redundancy here does not seem to be useful... The actual legal agreement people are agreeing to is in English, because that is what the authors have generally agreed to. (Obviously not ideal but that is the situation.) So putting the English version in makes it more clear that there is an underlying legal agreement in English and, in the worst case, allows us to ensure that someone can't claim that they didn't see the correct agreement. Luis ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Il giorno gio, 10/06/2010 alle 18.34 +0200, Wouter Bolsterlee ha scritto: > Op donderdag 10-06-2010 om 13:08 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Luca > Ferretti: > > Il giorno mar, 08/06/2010 alle 20.13 -0700, Luis Villa ha scritto: > > > I definitely recommend doing this through the toolkit so that the text > > > remains consistent throughout the platform. > > > > Did someone yet filed a bug against gtk+/glib? > > Earlier in this thread (message from May 19) I referenced this bug: > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336225 > Just a consideration. Then we should need 2 translatable messages: one in glib for console/terminal only application using "show c"/"show w" command reported earlier, one in gtk+ for GUI applications providing links. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
Hi! Luca Ferretti , Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:49:37 +0200: > Il giorno gio, 10/06/2010 alle 18.34 +0200, Wouter Bolsterlee ha > scritto: > > Op donderdag 10-06-2010 om 13:08 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Luca > > Ferretti: > > > Il giorno mar, 08/06/2010 alle 20.13 -0700, Luis Villa ha scritto: > > > > I definitely recommend doing this through the toolkit so that the > > > > text remains consistent throughout the platform. > > > > > > Did someone yet filed a bug against gtk+/glib? > > > > Earlier in this thread (message from May 19) I referenced this bug: > > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336225 > > > > Just a consideration. Then we should need 2 translatable messages: one > in glib for console/terminal only application using "show c"/"show w" > command reported earlier, one in gtk+ for GUI applications providing > links. For what it's worth, I'm afraid that there is more to that... Note that legal texts/notices also appear accross the GNOME documentation, and there are even modules with translation set up for free software licenses. Obviously, I'm talking about the gnome-desktop module: http://l10n.gnome.org/module/gnome-desktop/ I don't have any idea on how many of those license translations have been prepared by legal experts, but I'd rather guess it's mostly a community work, so quite problematic with regard to the legal topic. I assume that the safest approach from a legal point of view would be to drop these community translations and use the English original instead. And something similar should probably be recommended for any legal text or notice out there, unless translation team can be provided with expert translations. Having said that, I'm not sure whether using two legal notices, one in English and one localized, is feasible with regard to UI design & usability. My 5 kreutzers, Petr Kovar ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Should we really translate legal notices?
On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Petr Kovar wrote: > Hi! > > Luca Ferretti , Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:49:37 +0200: > >> Il giorno gio, 10/06/2010 alle 18.34 +0200, Wouter Bolsterlee ha >> scritto: >> > Op donderdag 10-06-2010 om 13:08 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Luca >> > Ferretti: >> > > Il giorno mar, 08/06/2010 alle 20.13 -0700, Luis Villa ha scritto: >> > > > I definitely recommend doing this through the toolkit so that the >> > > > text remains consistent throughout the platform. >> > > >> > > Did someone yet filed a bug against gtk+/glib? >> > >> > Earlier in this thread (message from May 19) I referenced this bug: >> > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=336225 >> > >> >> Just a consideration. Then we should need 2 translatable messages: one >> in glib for console/terminal only application using "show c"/"show w" >> command reported earlier, one in gtk+ for GUI applications providing >> links. > > For what it's worth, I'm afraid that there is more to that... Note that > legal texts/notices also appear accross the GNOME documentation, and there > are even modules with translation set up for free software licenses. > Obviously, I'm talking about the gnome-desktop module: > > http://l10n.gnome.org/module/gnome-desktop/ > > I don't have any idea on how many of those license translations have been > prepared by legal experts, but I'd rather guess it's mostly a community > work, so quite problematic with regard to the legal topic. Nothing more than that basic string should be being translated by GNOME translators. That said, certainly if the GNOME folks have contacts with FSF translators, perhaps they could work on something like http://creativecommons.org/licenses/GPL/2.0/ for LGPL and (L)GPL 3, and then work with us to use them? > And something similar should probably be recommended for any legal text or > notice out there, unless translation team can be provided with expert > translations. Having said that, I'm not sure whether using two legal > notices, one in English and one localized, is feasible with regard to UI > design & usability. I don't like the solution either, but the options are not ideal. Luis ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
