Re: LGPL vs. GPL

2008-07-20 Thread Ciaran O'Riordan

Encouraging contributions isn't usually a motivation to switch to LGPL.  The
writers of proprietary software will generally keep the most useful
functionality in their application code (rather than in your library) and
will contribute as little as possible.

A permissive licence (such as the LGPL) can be good if you want your
application to define an open standard.  For example, the Ogg Vorbis library
for playing that audio format is under a very permissive licence because the
goal is to make Ogg a widely used standard (so that free software developers
can work with an open, patent-free standard instead of the possibly patented
mp3 format).

The LGPL can also be good if you think that your field will naturally be
dominated by a single software package and you think you might loose a
head-to-head competition with some proprietary rival.  This is the case for
the GNU standard C library (glibc).  It makes technical sense for all
GNU/Linux operating systems to use the same libc, and if the developers of
proprietary software for GNU/Linux wanted to write their own libc, they
probably could.  So to ensure that they don't feel a need to do that, glibc
was released under the LGPL.

So unless you find yourself in either of those rare situations, then it's
probably best to stay with the GPL.

You've probably read this, but just in case:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html

Hope that helps.

P.S. This mailing list has lots of trolls.  Please ignore inflammatory
emails.
-- 
Ciarán O'Riordan, +32 477 36 44 19, http://ciaran.compsoc.com/

Support free software, join FSFE's Fellowship: http://fsfe.org

Recent blog entries:

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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread rjack

Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
In the last three years, Moglen and Ravicher together have received over 
$1,000,000 in compensation from public charitable contributions as S.F.L.C. 
officers.


Good for them!  I hope they get more.

I know enough about causation to conclude that this will cause pockets to 
grow fat.


Ah, now we know why you are so passionated about this, you are simply jealous
 and cannot tolerate others getting lots of cash.  So instead of being 
productive, and I dunno... work for a living; you troll from the basement of

 your parents house.

Cheers!


Hey! No jealousy here Alfred! Grab the money and run!

Just make sure there's no grease under the fingernails on the hand that grabs
the money. It is the hypocrisy factor that I object to. You "Free Software"
folks would like the world to believe that the S.F.L.C. is staffed full of
dedicated pro bono folks saving the world from capitalism. To wit:

“SFLC provides pro bono legal services to non-profit Free and Open Source
Software developers and also helps the general public better understand the
legal aspects of Free and Open Source Software.”
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061215131844340&query=pro+bono

The term “pro bono” is used to describe professional work undertaken voluntarily
and without payment as a public service. The socialist "Free Software" agenda
includes lining its advocates pockets just like any other for-profit (think
Microsoft) lobbying effort.

Sincerely,
Rjack


-- The hardest part of fleecing a sucker is convincing him to show his gratitude
for getting screwed --








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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread James Kanze
On Jul 19, 11:25 am, terminator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jul 18, 11:24 pm, Tim Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:

> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >  Wolfgang Draxinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > > Well, I know only the comments Linus Torvalds made about the
> > > implications of using C++ to develop a kernel. And I totally
> > > agree with him in his statements. Programming a kernel you want
> > > to control every bit of the program (yes I know, that this
> > > sentence can be interpreted in many ways, and each way totaly
> > > matches what I mean).

> > > A languages like C++, that hides (some) vital aspects of the
> > > underlying mechanisms can break things at such a low level
> > > application. I'm thinking mainly about the way, polymorphism is
> > > implemented (there's no standard about that in current C++), how
> > > name mangling is performed (dito), calling conventions if
> > > objects are passed by reference (dito). Another problem is, that
> > > the use of some C++ features (I'm looking at templates here)
> > > will start a chain reaction in which code is created generically
> > > w/o having any influence on the exact outcome. This is not the
> > > same like using macros to create a similair effect; doing it
> > > with a macro one must exactly know what's going on.

> > I have yet to encounter a C++ compiler that will refuse to compile a
> > program if it does not use polymorphism, passing objects by reference,
> > and templates.  There is nothing forcing someone who writes a kernel in
> > C++ to do those (possibly) questionable things.

Anyone who codes a kernel without using polymorphism just has to
reimplement it by hand.  Ditto passing objects by reference.
And I fail to see any problem with templates, although given
that most of the data structures in a kernel are very
customized, they'll probably be used less than in the
intermediate layers.

> you can call it C++ code but without them you are just codding in C
> and the trouble is that many high level featuers do not always suit to
> kernel programming,

Some (like exceptions) don't, but most do.

> on the other hand C++ is not high level enough for
> some tasks such as web programming,multithreading ...

Funny, I use it for that, with no problem.  (Well, I'm not sure
what you consider web programming, but Firefox is written mainly
in C++.  But maybe you don't consider that web programming.)

> In short words today`s C++ cannot be considered as general
> purpose as C used to be in good old days.

C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
example.

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Alf P. Steinbach

* James Kanze:


C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
example.


I'm not sure that statement is valid.

It would be very surprising, to say the least, if no or just a very few 
commercial applications were written in C.


A quick Google search did not, however, help me find commercial software written 
in any specific language (yes, I'm aware of Bjarne's old list for C++).



Cheers,

- Alf

--
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A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Alf P. Steinbach

* Alf P. Steinbach:

* James Kanze:


C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
example.


I'm not sure that statement is valid.

It would be very surprising, to say the least, if no or just a very few 
commercial applications were written in C.


A quick Google search did not, however, help me find commercial software 
written in any specific language (yes, I'm aware of Bjarne's old list 
for C++).


Oh, sorry, I've been on a medium large C project for client, this was late 90's, 
and I think that qualifies as commercial software. It was mainly C, but also 
some Cobol and SQL and stuff. It was a mess, years over deadline (I don't know 
how they convinced the client to continue), using a GUI framework the company 
had developed years back, in C. I recall the project leader being a bit angry 
with me when I cautioned against trying to sell in another project based on same 
technology. It seems to me that people advance to leadership positions based 
solely on lack of ethical circuits.



Cheers,

- Alf

--
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Flash Gordon

James Kanze wrote, On 20/07/08 09:23:

On Jul 19, 11:25 am, terminator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:





In short words today`s C++ cannot be considered as general
purpose as C used to be in good old days.


C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
example.


The company I currently work for was initially built on selling SW 
written in C to large UK corporations. We still do a lot of business 
with that old SW which is still mostly written in C.

--
Flash Gordon
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Richard Heathfield
James Kanze said:


 
> C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
> never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
> example.

So MS Windows is not commercial software? Interesting.

(Early versions of MS Windows were written almost entirely in C.)

-- 
Richard Heathfield 
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
Google users: 
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread peter koch
On 20 Jul., 10:23, James Kanze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jul 19, 11:25 am, terminator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
> never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
> example.

This is not correct. My guess would be that there is loads of C-based
software around. Speaking for myself, I have been developing
commercial software in C from the days before C++ became popular. The
software was a financial package which is still today very
successfull.
I was one of the programmers evaluating C++ as a replacement and even
though I liked it very much, I had to reject it: we programmed for a
segmented  architecture (yes - it was so long ago!), and the current C+
+ compilers we found did not have sufficiently good support for that.
Had the compiler given us suficient support for the architecture, I
would certainly have recommended C++.
Also many of the database-products out there (e.g. Oracle) are written
mostly or entirely in C.

/Peter
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Richard Heathfield
[followups set to clc]

peter koch said:



> My guess would be that there is loads of C-based
> software around. Speaking for myself, I have been developing
> commercial software in C from the days before C++ became popular. The
> software was a financial package which is still today very
> successfull.
> I was one of the programmers evaluating C++ as a replacement and even
> though I liked it very much, I had to reject it: we programmed for a
> segmented  architecture (yes - it was so long ago!), and the current C+
> + compilers we found did not have sufficiently good support for that.
> Had the compiler given us suficient support for the architecture, I
> would certainly have recommended C++.
> Also many of the database-products out there (e.g. Oracle) are written
> mostly or entirely in C.

Re-post (as far as I'm aware, I first posted this back in 2006):

An Oracle programmer (a very good one, I hasten to add) once told me of a
chap who came to his place of work in the early 1990s, attempting to
persuade them to convert from C to C++. The poor chap spent an hour or so
presenting an object-oriented database methodology to the Oracle guys. He'd
obviously worked very hard on it. As he was winding up his presentation and
heading rapidly towards "are there any questions?", he suddenly noticed
that just about everybody in the room was regarding him with utter
astonishment. He panicked, and said "What's the matter? Have I got
something wrong?" Came the reply, "No, no, maybe one or two bits could be
improved here or there... it's broadly okay though... but - we did all this
*years* ago! And you want us to write it *again*?"

-- 
Richard Heathfield 
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
Google users: 
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Hyman Rosen

rjack wrote:
The term “pro bono” is used to describe professional work undertaken 
voluntarily and without payment as a public service.


Wikipedia  says
"A judge may occasionally determine that the loser should
 compensate a winning pro bono counsel."
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Hyman Rosen

rjack wrote:
Every time (with 100% correlation) when the S.F.L.C. files a plaintiff's 
GPL case in the S.D.N.Y., this action causes the plaintiff to voluntarily 
dismiss his pointless lawsuit without the court ever reviewing the legal

> status of the GPL or any of plaintiff's copyright claims.


In the last three years, Moglen and Ravicher together have received over
$1,000,000 in compensation from public charitable contributions as S.F.L.C.
officers.


You have not provide an instance where after the SFLC ended a
case the source for the GPLed software failed to be provided.

The SFLC continues to file cases on behalf of their clients,
who can therefore be assumed to be satisfied with the service
they are receiving.

The SFLC also receives enough money from its settlements that
its attorneys are reasonably well compensated and therefore
want to continue what they are doing.

So everyone involved, except for the code grabbers, is happy.
GPLed sources are made available, code grabbers are chastened,
attorneys are paid. I guess you're unhappy too, but that's just
an extra bonus.
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Hyman Rosen

rjack wrote:

Each time the SFLC has filed a suit, GPL'd source code has appeared.

> This correlation proves your hypothesis


Every day an SFLC suit was filed, little children died in the Sudan.

> This correlation proves the SFLC is killing little children.

It is reasonable to believe that when a court action is filed
to accomplish a specific purpose, and when the court action is
over, that purpose has been accomplished, that the court action
was instrumental in accomplishing the purpose.

It is fine if you choose not to believe that, but you will find
it difficult to convince anyone else.
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Hyman Rosen

Alexander Terekhov wrote:

Man oh man. Hyman Rosen managed to find out that SFLC wants scripts...
yet "PRAYER FOR RELIEF" doesn't mention scripts.


Of course not. The prayer for relief is simply asking the
defendant to stop illegally distributing the plaintiff's
software, and to compensate everyone for having done so.

The only license the defendant has for distributing this
software requires that sources, including scripts, be
distributed or made available with it. Since the defendant
is not doing that, he is not distributing under this license,
and therefore is distributing illegally.
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Hyman Rosen

Alexander Terekhov wrote:
Release Date Filename 
11/27/2007 actiontec_opensrc_mi424wr.tar.gz 

Hmmm... looks like Actiontec is at least attempting to honor the 
license. I haven't researched what's in the tarball, but at least it's 
there. 


So, again, why is SFLC suing Verizon?


Actiontec and Verizon spent at least most of a year illegally
distributing copyrighted software without a license. Why shouldn't
the SFLC have sued them?

As I said before, it appears that Actiontec's compliance and the
SFLC's suit happened very close together, and a reasonable
interpretation (which, of course, will not be yours) is that the
two events crossed. This is also the reasonable interpretation of
why the SFLC then quickly dismissed the suit.
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread rjack

Hyman Rosen wrote:

rjack wrote:
Every time (with 100% correlation) when the S.F.L.C. files a 
plaintiff's GPL case in the S.D.N.Y., this action causes the plaintiff 
to voluntarily dismiss his pointless lawsuit without the court ever 
reviewing the legal

 > status of the GPL or any of plaintiff's copyright claims.


In the last three years, Moglen and Ravicher together have received over
$1,000,000 in compensation from public charitable contributions as 
S.F.L.C.

officers.


You have not provide an instance where after the SFLC ended a
case the source for the GPLed software failed to be provided.

The SFLC continues to file cases on behalf of their clients,
who can therefore be assumed to be satisfied with the service
they are receiving.

The SFLC also receives enough money from its settlements that
its attorneys are reasonably well compensated and therefore
want to continue what they are doing.



U. What settlements. The imaginary ones?


So everyone involved, except for the code grabbers, is happy.
GPLed sources are made available, code grabbers are chastened,
attorneys are paid. I guess you're unhappy too, but that's just
an extra bonus.

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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread David Kastrup
Richard Heathfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> James Kanze said:
>
> 
>  
>> C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
>> never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
>> example.
>
> So MS Windows is not commercial software? Interesting.

Last time I looked, UNIX was not particularly uncommercial either.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
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Re: LGPL vs. GPL

2008-07-20 Thread JohnF
Ciaran O'Riordan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Encouraging contributions isn't usually a motivation to switch to LGPL.  The
> writers of proprietary software will generally keep the most useful
> functionality in their application code (rather than in your library) and
> will contribute as little as possible.
> 
> A permissive licence (such as the LGPL) can be good if you want your
> application to define an open standard.  For example, the Ogg Vorbis library
> for playing that audio format is under a very permissive licence because the
> goal is to make Ogg a widely used standard (so that free software developers
> can work with an open, patent-free standard instead of the possibly patented
> mp3 format).
> 
> The LGPL can also be good if you think that your field will naturally be
> dominated by a single software package and you think you might loose a
> head-to-head competition with some proprietary rival.  This is the case for
> the GNU standard C library (glibc).  It makes technical sense for all
> GNU/Linux operating systems to use the same libc, and if the developers of
> proprietary software for GNU/Linux wanted to write their own libc, they
> probably could.  So to ensure that they don't feel a need to do that, glibc
> was released under the LGPL.
> 
> So unless you find yourself in either of those rare situations, then it's
> probably best to stay with the GPL.
> 
> You've probably read this, but just in case:
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html
> 
> Hope that helps.

Thanks, Ciaran, for the discussion and very useful information.
It indeed helps, and pretty much coincides with (and clarifies)
my original thinking -- not much reason (for me) to use the lgpl.
I hadn't seen why-not-lgpl.html before, but have read it now.
And I've replied to the email lgpl request, informing him
that mimetex will remain gpl'ed.  Thanks again,
-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  where j=john and f=forkosh )
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread David Kastrup
rjack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>
>> The proof will be, once the case is over, whether the defendants
>> properly make available the sources of the GPLed software that they
>> are distributing.  That most likely will be the case, because quoting
>> from the complaint:
>
> Each time the SFLC has filed a suit, GPL'd source code has
> appeared. This correlation proves your hypothesis Hymen.
>
> Every day an SFLC suit was filed, little children died in the
> Sudan. This correlation proves the SFLC is killing little children.

And I have no doubt that Terekhov and you would hail anybody suing the
SFLC for murder, and be calling any judge thinking otherwise "drunk",
"mad" or similar.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread rjack

Hyman Rosen wrote:

rjack wrote:
Every time (with 100% correlation) when the S.F.L.C. files a 
plaintiff's GPL case in the S.D.N.Y., this action causes the plaintiff 
to voluntarily dismiss his pointless lawsuit without the court ever 
reviewing the legal

 > status of the GPL or any of plaintiff's copyright claims.


In the last three years, Moglen and Ravicher together have received over
$1,000,000 in compensation from public charitable contributions as 
S.F.L.C.

officers.


You have not provide an instance where after the SFLC ended a
case the source for the GPLed software failed to be provided.



That's right. I'm gonna' let *you* provide the *verifiable evidence* for *your* 
claims of settlements.



The SFLC continues to file cases on behalf of their clients,
who can therefore be assumed to be satisfied with the service
they are receiving.



Ah yes, "assumed".  "Ass-u-me" will make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".


The SFLC also receives enough money from its settlements that
its attorneys are reasonably well compensated and therefore
want to continue what they are doing.


If you are privy to these "settlements" pray tell post them so all may see and
verify.



So everyone involved, except for the code grabbers, is happy.
GPLed sources are made available, code grabbers are chastened,
attorneys are paid. I guess you're unhappy too, but that's just
an extra bonus.


I'm not unhappy 'cause I'm having fun exposing your unverifiable, self-serving 
claims.


Sincerely,
Rjack

-- The hardest part of fleecing a sucker is convincing him to show his gratitude
for getting screwed --







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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Linonut
* Hyman Rosen peremptorily fired off this memo:

> rjack wrote:
>> Every time (with 100% correlation) when the S.F.L.C. files a plaintiff's 
>> GPL case in the S.D.N.Y., this action causes the plaintiff to voluntarily 
>> dismiss his pointless lawsuit without the court ever reviewing the legal
> > status of the GPL or any of plaintiff's copyright claims.
>> 
>> In the last three years, Moglen and Ravicher together have received over
>> $1,000,000 in compensation from public charitable contributions as S.F.L.C.
>> officers.

Wow, $170K/year.  Not a bad salary.

Unless you compare it to, say, Gates and Ballmer.

> So everyone involved, except for the code grabbers, is happy.
> GPLed sources are made available, code grabbers are chastened,
> attorneys are paid. I guess you're unhappy too, but that's just
> an extra bonus.

Of course he's happy, he don't get jack.

-- 
Cold, adj.:
When the politicians walk around with their hands in their own pockets.
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Moshe Goldfarb.
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:27:09 -0400, Hyman Rosen wrote:


> You have not provide an instance where after the SFLC ended a

Hyman,
Are you related to Moses Rosen?
I had a friend with that name who I believe had a son named Hyman and a
daughter named Hedy.

Just asking.
Shalom!

-- 
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Hyman Rosen

rjack wrote:

U. What settlements. The imaginary ones?


The settlements it reaches in its cases.
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Hyman Rosen

rjack wrote:

That's right. I'm gonna' let *you* provide the *verifiable evidence*

> for *your* claims of settlements.

I'm not going to do that. It's enough for me to provide reasonable
inferences to counter the absurd claims that you and Terekhov make.
There's no chance that either of you will change your minds. The
point is to prevent lurkers, assuming that there still are any, from
taking your statements at face value.

It's also obvious that should there have been such an instance, you
and Terekhov would be trumpeting it all over the place, as he tries
a bit with the Verizon case.
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread rjack

Hyman Rosen wrote:

rjack wrote:

That's right. I'm gonna' let *you* provide the *verifiable evidence*

 > for *your* claims of settlements.

I'm not going to do that.


That's right neither you nor the S.F.L.C. have ever produced any verifiable
evidence for any legal claims and you never will.

The upcoming appellate decision concerning Jacobsen v. Katzer in the Court of 
Appeals for the Federal Circuit will end the question of GPL enforceability once 
and for all. Until then blather and bluster as you will. I suppose there are 
still a few gullible souls out there.



It's enough for me to provide reasonable
inferences to counter the absurd claims that you and Terekhov make.
There's no chance that either of you will change your minds. The
point is to prevent lurkers, assuming that there still are any, from
taking your statements at face value.

It's also obvious that should there have been such an instance, you
and Terekhov would be trumpeting it all over the place, as he tries
a bit with the Verizon case.


Sincerely,
Rjack :)

Have a nice day!
  _ _
 |_|   |_|
 | | /^^^\ | |
_| |_  (| "o" |)  _| |_
  _| | | | _(_---_)_ | | | |_
 | | | | |' |_| |_| `| | | | |
 |  |   / \   |  |
  \/  / /(. .)\ \  \/
\/  / /  | . |  \ \  \/
  \  \/ /||Y||\ \/  /
   \__/  || ||  \__/
 () ()
 || ||
ooO Ooo
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Linonut
* rjack peremptorily fired off this memo:

>_ _
>  |_|   |_|
>  | | /^^^\ | |
>  _| |_  (| "o" |)  _| |_
>_| | | | _(_---_)_ | | | |_
>  | | | | |' |_| |_| `| | | | |
>  |  |   / \   |  |
>\/  / /(. .)\ \  \/
>  \/  / /  | . |  \ \  \/
>\  \/ /||Y||\ \/  /
> \__/  || ||  \__/
>   () ()
>  || ||
>  ooO Ooo

Your best argument yet.

-- 
acme-cannon (3.1415) unstable; urgency=low
  * Added safety to prevent operator dismemberment, closes: bug #98765,
bug #98713, #98714.
  * Added manpage. closes: #98725.
-- Wile E. Coyote <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Sun, 31 Jan 1999 
07:49:57 -0600
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread rjack

Linonut wrote:

* rjack peremptorily fired off this memo:


_ _ |_|   |_| | | /^^^\
| | _| |_  (| "o" |)  _| |_ _| | | | _(_---_)_ | | | |_ | |
| | |' |_| |_| `| | | | | |  |   / \   |  | \
/  / /(. .)\ \  \/ \/  / /  | . |  \ \  \/ \  \/ /||Y||
\ \/  / \__/  || ||  \__/ () () || || ooO Ooo


Your best argument yet.



Many thanks. Trolls need love too!

Sincerely,
Rjack :)

“The GPL is a License, Not a Contract, Which is Why the Sky Isn't Falling”,
Sunday, December 14 2003 @ 09:06 PM EST -- Pamela Jones at Groklaw
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread lawrence . jones
Alf P. Steinbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> It would be very surprising, to say the least, if no or just a very few 
> commercial applications were written in C.

All of my company's major commercial applications are written
predominantly in C, including one that's completely object oriented
but predates C++ by about a decade.
-- 
Larry Jones

These child psychology books we bought were such a waste of money.
-- Calvin's Mom
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Lorenzo Villari

"James Kanze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Funny, I use it for that, with no problem.  (Well, I'm not sure
> what you consider web programming, but Firefox is written mainly
> in C++.  But maybe you don't consider that web programming.)

I'm maybe wrong, but I was under the impression that for Firefox they use
gtk+, which is written in C...









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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Tim Smith
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
 Hyman Rosen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The SFLC continues to file cases on behalf of their clients,
> who can therefore be assumed to be satisfied with the service
> they are receiving.

What's puzzling is that rjack appears to be right about one very 
important thing, though.  Doing a search of copyright registrations, I 
can't find one for Busybox (or for anything else by the people listed in 
the lawsuits as the copyright owners).

It also doesn't appear the Busybox counts as a non-US Berne work, and so 
registration is a prerequisite to suit.

Can anyone explain what is going on here?  Is the search at 
www.copyright.gov not up to date?  Are the defendants not bothering to 
check because they just assume the work must have been registered?  Is 
Busybox actually a non-US Berne work?



-- 
--Tim Smith
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread James Kanze
On Jul 20, 10:50 am, "Alf P. Steinbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> * James Kanze:
> > C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
> > never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
> > example.

> I'm not sure that statement is valid.

> It would be very surprising, to say the least, if no or just a
> very few commercial applications were written in C.

There are certainly a few.  Way back when, however, the X/Open
group proposed standardizing a form of Cobol (under Unix!)
because C was felt to be unusable for business applications.

At least certain types of business applications require some
sort of decimal type.  If the language doesn't have it built in
(as Cobol and PL-1 did), and it doesn't have operator
overloading, expressions quickly become unreadable.  For those
applications, at least, if the language doesn't have a built-in
decimal type, and it doesn't have operator overloading, then
it's really unusable for those applications (although you'll
doubtlessly find some masocists doing it).

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
   Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread James Kanze
On Jul 20, 1:51 pm, Richard Heathfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> James Kanze said:

> 

> > C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
> > never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
> > example.

> So MS Windows is not commercial software? Interesting.

Yes.  Commercial can be used in several senses (and I'm not sure
of the usual English usage here).  There's a lot of software
written in C that is commercial in the sense that it is sold
(i.e. commercial as opposed to free software).  What I was
talking about, however, was the application domain.  You can't
really do accounting in C, for example, because it has neither a
built in decimal type (like Cobol), nor operator overloading on
user defined types (like C++).  More generally, C is pretty bad
for text handling as well.

Of course, a lot of early Unix systems only had C, and between C
and assembler, you used C, even if it wasn't the ideal language
for the job.  (Although the old X/Open group did try to
standardize a Cobol dialect for Unix.)

--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
   Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread David Kastrup
rjack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Hyman Rosen wrote:
>> rjack wrote:
>>> That's right. I'm gonna' let *you* provide the *verifiable evidence*
>>  > for *your* claims of settlements.
>>
>> I'm not going to do that.
>
> That's right neither you nor the S.F.L.C. have ever produced any
> verifiable evidence for any legal claims and you never will.
>
> The upcoming appellate decision concerning Jacobsen v. Katzer in the
> Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit will end the question of GPL
> enforceability once and for all.

Pffft.  Like all previous decisions did.  I don't expect anything new.
You trumpet about the inevitability of the outcomes all the time, and
then bluster about incompetence of the judges afterwards.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread peter koch
On 20 Jul., 21:59, James Kanze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Jul 20, 10:50 am, "Alf P. Steinbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > * James Kanze:
> > > C was never really a good general purpose language.  It was
> > > never used (nor even usable) in commercial software, for
> > > example.
> > I'm not sure that statement is valid.
> > It would be very surprising, to say the least, if no or just a
> > very few commercial applications were written in C.
>
> There are certainly a few.  Way back when, however, the X/Open
> group proposed standardizing a form of Cobol (under Unix!)
> because C was felt to be unusable for business applications.
>
> At least certain types of business applications require some
> sort of decimal type.  If the language doesn't have it built in
> (as Cobol and PL-1 did), and it doesn't have operator
> overloading, expressions quickly become unreadable.  For those
> applications, at least, if the language doesn't have a built-in
> decimal type, and it doesn't have operator overloading, then
> it's really unusable for those applications (although you'll
> doubtlessly find some masocists doing it).
>
That was the case for "my" financial application. It had decimal-based
arithmetic, and writing expressions in C was
add(multiply(a,b),divide(c,d)) instead of a*b+ c/d. But as a lot of
the high-level code was written in our own, interpreted language
anyway it did not matter so much.

/Peter
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread Moshe Goldfarb.
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 12:45:59 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>  Hyman Rosen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> The SFLC continues to file cases on behalf of their clients,
>> who can therefore be assumed to be satisfied with the service
>> they are receiving.
> 
> What's puzzling is that rjack appears to be right about one very 
> important thing, though.  Doing a search of copyright registrations, I 
> can't find one for Busybox (or for anything else by the people listed in 
> the lawsuits as the copyright owners).
> 
> It also doesn't appear the Busybox counts as a non-US Berne work, and so 
> registration is a prerequisite to suit.
> 
> Can anyone explain what is going on here?  Is the search at 
> www.copyright.gov not up to date?  Are the defendants not bothering to 
> check because they just assume the work must have been registered?  Is 
> Busybox actually a non-US Berne work?

I'm surprised Fisher Price hasn't squawked about the name.
Their's is Busy Box (2 words) though I think?

-- 
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
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Re: SFLC's GPL court enforcement -- track record

2008-07-20 Thread rjack

Tim Smith wrote:

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Hyman Rosen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The SFLC continues to file cases on behalf of their clients, who can
therefore be assumed to be satisfied with the service they are receiving.


What's puzzling is that rjack appears to be right about one very important
thing, though.  Doing a search of copyright registrations, I can't find one
for Busybox (or for anything else by the people listed in the lawsuits as the
copyright owners).

It also doesn't appear the Busybox counts as a non-US Berne work, and so 
registration is a prerequisite to suit.


Can anyone explain what is going on here?  Is the search at www.copyright.gov
not up to date?  Are the defendants not bothering to check because they just
assume the work must have been registered?  Is Busybox actually a non-US
Berne work?




From the S.F.L.C. suits:

"6. Plaintiffs are authors and developers of the BusyBox computer program, and
the owners of copyrights in that computer program."


Here is a list of BusyBox developers from the BusyBox site. Who owns what
copyrights in the BusyBox source code?
___

The following login accounts currently exist on busybox.net. (I.E. these people
can commit patches into subversion for the BusyBox, uClibc, and buildroot 
projects.)
aldot :Bernhard Fischer
andersen  :Erik Andersen  - uClibc and BuildRoot maintainer.
bug1  :Glenn McGrath
davidm:David McCullough
gkajmowi  :Garrett Kajmowicz  - uClibc++ maintainer
jbglaw:Jan-Benedict Glaw
jocke :Joakim Tjernlund
landley   :Rob Landley- BusyBox maintainer
lethal:Paul Mundt
mjn3  :Manuel Novoa III
osuadmin  :osuadmin
pgf   :Paul Fox
pkj   :Peter Kjellerstedt
prpplague :David Anders
psm   :Peter S. Mazinger
russ  :Russ Dill
sandman   :Robert Griebl
sjhill:Steven J. Hill
solar :Ned Ludd
timr  :Tim Riker
tobiasa   :Tobias Anderberg
vapier:Mike Frysinger

The following accounts used to exist on busybox.net, but don't anymore so I
can't ask /etc/passwd for their names. Rob Wentworth asked Google and recovered
the names:

aaronl   :Aaron Lehmann
beppu:John Beppu
dwhedon  :David Whedon
erik :Erik Andersen
gfeldman :Gennady Feldman
jimg :Jim Gleason
kraai:Matt Kraai
markw:Mark Whitley
miles:Miles Bader
proski   :Pavel Roskin
rjune:Richard June
tausq:Randolph Chung
vodz :Vladimir N. Oleynik

http://busybox.net/FAQ.html#who
_


How does one untangle all the interwoven source code from literally years of
derivative and collective patches submitted by over thirty different
programmers? The plaintiffs must identify only their own original works of
authorship in the BusyBox source code in order to claim ownership of the
copyrights.

Sincerely,
Rjack :)

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or
the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
-- John Adams, 'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre
Trials,' December 1770
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Richard Heathfield
[followups set to clc]

James Kanze said:



> You can't really do accounting in C, for example,

Really? How strange. I've done loads of accounting in C. (But then I've 
always been good at doing the impossible.)

> because it has neither a
> built in decimal type (like Cobol), nor operator overloading on
> user defined types (like C++).

You don't need either of those to do accounting.

> More generally, C is pretty bad for text handling as well.

It's easily good enough, given that just about the first thing most people 
do in C is start work on their text-handling libraries.

-- 
Richard Heathfield 
Email: -http://www. +rjh@
Google users: 
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Sherman Pendley
"Lorenzo Villari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I'm maybe wrong, but I was under the impression that for Firefox they use
> gtk+, which is written in C...

Gtk+ is indeed written in C, but it's object-oriented and has bindings
for a number of languages, including C++.

sherm--

-- 
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Wolfgang Draxinger
Sherman Pendley wrote:

> "Lorenzo Villari" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>> I'm maybe wrong, but I was under the impression that for
>> Firefox they use gtk+, which is written in C...
> 
> Gtk+ is indeed written in C, but it's object-oriented

And?!

Coding something in C doesn't mean you must abandon using OOP
methods. It just means, that things are going to be a bit more
verbose (i.e. you've to maintain everything yourself).

Wolfgang Draxinger
-- 
E-Mail address works, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ: 134682867

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Re: C++ equivalent to spaghetti code

2008-07-20 Thread Willem
James Kanze wrote:
) Yes.  Commercial can be used in several senses (and I'm not sure
) of the usual English usage here).  There's a lot of software
) written in C that is commercial in the sense that it is sold
) (i.e. commercial as opposed to free software).  What I was
) talking about, however, was the application domain.  You can't
) really do accounting in C, for example, because it has neither a
) built in decimal type (like Cobol), nor operator overloading on
) user defined types (like C++).  More generally, C is pretty bad
) for text handling as well.

In other words: There cannot be any commercial applicaiton written in C,
because in your view it is not well suited to one or two application
types you can think of.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed in two entirely separate, both
equally valid ways.

- That it is not the most well suited does not imply that it is impossible
  that commercial software is written in it.
- There are many more commercial application types than the few you
  mentioned.


It may be that you're trolling though.  It is a very nice blanket statement
you made, one that will rile many people, and with a lot of wiggle room.


SaSW, Willem
-- 
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
made in the above text. For all I know I might be
drugged or something..
No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT
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