Re: [Gnustep-cvs] r23393 - in /apps/projectcenter/branches/UNSTABLE_0_5: ./ Documentation/ Headers/ProjectCenter/ Headers/Protocols/ Library/ Library/Resources/FileAttributes.gorm/ Library/Resources/P

[Sergii Stoian]

Hi, Adam.On 9/5/06, Adam Fedor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Can you also put in a svn log and/or ChangeLog of what you did?  It'shelpful for other people working on the project.  I usually theChangeLog as the svn log entry so they are the same.Once I bring PC with new features into some useable shape I'll do it. Thank you.
BTW, I've updated my e-mail on savannah as well as on gna.org.-- Sergii Stoian, ProjectCenter maintainer 
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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Dennis Leeuw]

Adam Fedor wrote:


On Sep 9, 2006, at 11:49 PM, Gregory John Casamento wrote:


Adam,

Is it an ad for new developers or an ad urging end-users to try GNUstep?

It's more of an add to get more help, but I think getting more users 
would provide the same benefit.



Maybe the best way to promote the GNUstep project is to set goals.
Create an overview of the current state and the milestones.
Give developers triggers where they can make contributions and what is 
in it for them.


We all know GNUstep can be the best desktop environment around and we 
can beat everything that was (maybe even that will be). The trick is to 
get people in. So tell honestly what is missing, where they can make 
their hands dirty (cairo integration springs to mind).


Just my 2 cents.

Dennis





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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Markus Hitter]

Am 10.09.2006 um 22:09 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


I dont want to make a 'gnustep application', but an 'application
using gnustep' ;-)
Actually i want to make a tiny 3D game in objective C.


Did you have a look at Oolite  ?



Markus

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter
http://www.jump-ing.de/






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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Markus Hitter]

Am 10.09.2006 um 22:00 schrieb Philippe C.D. Robert:


[...] to focus on the desktop paradigm for X11 based Unices.


Good for advertisement as long as you leave out the emphasis on  
"X11" ... there's a Cairo backend already and an X11 requirement  
would be a showstopper for many Mac developers as well.



Markus

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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http://www.jump-ing.de/






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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Fred Kiefer]

I would agree with Adams answer, go for a dummy graphics backend.
Perhaps we could even rewrite the back makefile to have gsc usable as such?
As I understand it you will need a window, or rather event server based
on SDL. Put that into back and perhaps somebody may later add code to
make this a full backend. I love to see huge things being build up by
people only requiring small parts of it.

Fred

Adam Fedor schrieb:
> As long as you don't call [NSApplication sharedApplication] (or, in
> fact, initialize NSApplication at all), you can use classes in the gui
> without a backend.  But you have to be careful not to use any
> classes/methods that cause any display or drawing.  Also you could
> create a dummy backend (something like gsc in gnustep-back). That does
> nothing or does what you want it (see documentation for GSDisplayServer
> and NSGraphicsContext).
> 
> 
> On Sep 10, 2006, at 2:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>>
>> Gregory,
>>
>> Thanks for your answer.
>>
>> I dont want to make a 'gnustep application', but an 'application
>> using gnustep' ;-)
>> Actually i want to make a tiny 3D game in objective C. You may see
>> that as a training (for me) and a test of the efficiency of
>> objective c for that kind of application. SDL is imho a good choice
>> for a game, and gnustep is a good choice for objective C.
>>
>> Basically i need a simple cross-platform multimedia library, with
>> _joystick_support_, fullscreen display, custom resolution... Gnustep
>> cant do that, but can do many other useful things. And I'd like to
>> write some code that might be run/resuse later on a full gnustep
>> system, and then i have to write some NS-compatible classes.
>> In brief I need something like a NSApplication class that does not
>> need any NSWindow object. I could (try to) write it from scratch,
>> but i'd prefer reuse gnustep classes if i can : they are better than
>> anything i could make...
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> Xavier
>>
>> Selon Gregory John Casamento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>
>>> Xavier,
>>>
>>> You've given little information about what you're actually trying to do.
>>> Your email details how you would like to solve the issue, but doesn't
>>> clearly
>>> define what the issue is.
>>>
>>> Based on the fact that you briefly mention OpenGL, I assume you
>>  want to make
>>> a GNUstep application which displays OpenGL graphics.  GNUstep has an
>>> implementation of NSOpenGLView which allows OpenGL to be directly
>>> displayed
>>> in the view.   GNUstep does this by creating an OpenGL window and
>>> reparenting
>>> it to the view, thus not incurring any overhead.
>>>
>>> Is there some issue with using this?
>>>
>>> Later, GJC
>>>
>>> --Gregory Casamento
>>>
>>> - Original Message 
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> To: gnustep-dev@gnu.org
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 11:59:00 AM
>>> Subject: question to backend/gui guru...
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello
>>>
>>> I intend to write a SDL+OpenGL application based on gnustep.
>>>
>>> I can use gnustep-base without problem, but i'd like to use some
>>> parts of
>>> gnustep-gui (event management, ...) without any graphic or window
>>> class/function.
>>>
>>> SDL dont provides any graphic function, and I dont want to write à full
>>> SDL+OpenGL backend !!
>>> I dont want to rewrite gnustep in any way. I only want to compile the
>>> classes
>>> i
>>> need in gnustep-gui. But I understand I would have to write a partial
>>> backend,
>>> a "SDL-server", like "win32" or "X11" ones (i hope i can do that...)
>>>
>>> I wonder if it would be easy (or at least feasible) to split/compile
>>> gnustep-back and gnustep-gui in two parts : "server" and "system" on one
>>> side,
>>> and "graphics" and "gui" on the other side.
>>> (and then use only (SDL-)server/system)
>>> Any informations about dependances between classes will be welcome ! Its
>>> quite
>>> obscur for me... :o\
>>>
>>> In brief : feasible or not ?  thnks in advance !
>>>



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Separate debug symbols

[Jeremy Bettis]

Someone mentioned that gdb can separate the symbols from the 
executables, as a motivating factor for removing debug=yes and debug=no.


How do you do this?  I cannot find a gcc command to write the symbols to 
a different file, and the support for reading the separate symbol files 
in gdb seems clunky.


Here is what I have found so far. 


1) Strip can remove debug symbols, and write them to a separate file:
strip shared_debug_obj/app.exe -o app.exe
strip shared_debug_obj/app.exe --only-keep-debug -o app.dbg
strip shared_debug_obj/lib.dll -o lib.dll
strip shared_debug_obj/lib.dll --only-keep-debug -o lib.dbg

2) gdb can read the separate symbol files, but only if you tell it too:
add-symbol-file app.dbg
add-symbol-file lib.dbg

3) gdb is ok with add-symbol-file on dynamic libraries before they have 
been loaded.


If gdb would automatically look for the symbol files by some algorithm, 
that would be wonderful.  The appeal of being able to ship a stripped 
version of my software and then being able to drop in the symbol files 
and start debugging, is almost too good to resist.




smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[xavier . glattard]

Selon Fred Kiefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I would agree with Adams answer, go for a dummy graphics backend.
> Perhaps we could even rewrite the back makefile to have gsc usable as such?
> As I understand it you will need a window, or rather event server based
> on SDL. Put that into back and perhaps somebody may later add code to
> make this a full backend. I love to see huge things being build up by
> people only requiring small parts of it.
>
> Fred
>
> Adam Fedor schrieb:
> > As long as you don't call [NSApplication sharedApplication] (or, in
> > fact, initialize NSApplication at all), you can use classes in the gui
> > without a backend.  But you have to be careful not to use any
> > classes/methods that cause any display or drawing.  Also you could
> > create a dummy backend (something like gsc in gnustep-back). That does
> > nothing or does what you want it (see documentation for GSDisplayServer
> > and NSGraphicsContext).

I take some time to look inside NSApplication code. This class highly depends
on graphic display. It seems to me that it would be easier to write a
SDLApplication class with a partial NS-like interface, and then use the only
AppKit classes that dont need any display output (not so easy to find :-\ )
And i will follow your advice and create a scaledown SDL backend that will
only handle events.
I might also need a SDLWindow class (singleton!) to receive window specific
events (iconify, expose...), and maybe a SDLOpenGLView class...

I have look at OOlite (thanks Markus !). They dont use NSApplication but they
have created a GameController class based on SDL and other SDL companion libs.
I think they dont use much of AppKit.

Thanks again for your help

Xavier


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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Philippe C.D. Robert]

On 10.09.2006, at 22:43, Helge Hess wrote:

On Sep 10, 2006, at 22:00, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote:
Well, for the advertisement. What would you say, _why_ is GNUstep  
good for that? :-)


Eg Ruby tries to get into that market by allowing the user to  
contruct flashy web 2.0 apps in a few minutes (and they do not  
seem to succeed). Do we have a similiar unique feature which  
could drive enterprise people to try GNUstep?


These people are not exactly waiting for yet another cross- 
platform framework. IMO the only chance for GNUstep to get some  
wider adoption is to focus on the desktop paradigm for X11 based  
Unices. But then again, we had this discussion for a very long  
time...


Hm, the response is slightly out of context, no? :-) Please don't  
turn it into the discussion "we had a for a very long time", we all  
know that :-) The initial point was an agreement that as a desktop  
we have nothing to advertise successfully _right now_ and the  
question what we _could_ advertise w/o disappointing people.


Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the message  
behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet) and never  
will because some project members don't want GNUstep to become a  
desktop in the first place. This is legitimate, but I am convinced  
this has negative impacts on the "progress" of the entire project.


Nicola correctly said that the best thing about GNUstep is the  
Foundation library. Though I have a few issues (eg bad out-of-the- 
box FHS support) it can certainly be considered finished.

Now the question is whether we can somehow advertise this fact?


So the question is whether gstep-base could be interesting for  
people and why. Can we put that into an ad which triggers someone?


Why do you think do we have "nothing to advertise successfully" after  
all those years? Do you really believe it is sufficient to advertise  
solely GNUstep base in some form or another in these days? Even  
though it is possible to do good marketing w/o having any product, it  
won't actually be easy to successfully promote GNUstep in the  
enterprise world in these days... Also, what exactly is the purpose  
of the amazing Gorm application when there is no usable UI  
environment (exaggerating, I know)? The real strength of OpenStep/ 
Cocoa is IMO the AppKit in conjunction with IB/Gorm, hence this is  
what we should focus on (and advertise), even if it's not yet 100%  
there! Of course this will again trigger the discussion wrt a real  
GNUstep desktop environment, I am afraid ;-)


Anyway, what would be your proposal?

-Phil
--
Philippe C.D. Robert
http://www.nice.ch/~phip




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Re: question to backend/gui guru...

[Philippe C.D. Robert]

On 11.09.2006, at 20:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I take some time to look inside NSApplication code. This class  
highly depends

on graphic display. It seems to me that it would be easier to write a
SDLApplication class with a partial NS-like interface, and then use  
the only
AppKit classes that dont need any display output (not so easy to  
find :-\ )
And i will follow your advice and create a scaledown SDL backend  
that will

only handle events.
I might also need a SDLWindow class (singleton!) to receive window  
specific

events (iconify, expose...), and maybe a SDLOpenGLView class...


What are you actually trying to come up with? And what AppKit classes  
would you need exactly in your code? SDL already gives you a lot of  
this functionality you mention. So it might be easier to just use  
gnustep-base + SDL for what you have in mind? This is straight  
forward today, when I did it years ago I had to cleanup the SDL  
source first, removing all the variables called 'id' ;-)


-Phil
--
Philippe C.D. Robert
http://www.nice.ch/~phip




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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf]

Am 11.09.2006 um 05:00 schrieb Adam Fedor:



On Sep 9, 2006, at 11:49 PM, Gregory John Casamento wrote:


Adam,

Is it an ad for new developers or an ad urging end-users to try  
GNUstep?


It's more of an add to get more help, but I think getting more  
users would provide the same benefit.


O.k. then we should try to get developers who have both Windows and  
Unix experience to advance the Windows port of gnustep (esp. GNUstep  
GUI) IMHO. From what I have perceived from the mailing lists it's  
that kind of people we lack most.






regards, Lars


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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Richard Frith-Macdonald]

On 11 Sep 2006, at 20:07, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote:


On 10.09.2006, at 22:43, Helge Hess wrote:

On Sep 10, 2006, at 22:00, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote:
Well, for the advertisement. What would you say, _why_ is  
GNUstep good for that? :-)


Eg Ruby tries to get into that market by allowing the user to  
contruct flashy web 2.0 apps in a few minutes (and they do not  
seem to succeed). Do we have a similiar unique feature which  
could drive enterprise people to try GNUstep?


These people are not exactly waiting for yet another cross- 
platform framework. IMO the only chance for GNUstep to get some  
wider adoption is to focus on the desktop paradigm for X11 based  
Unices. But then again, we had this discussion for a very long  
time...


Hm, the response is slightly out of context, no? :-) Please don't  
turn it into the discussion "we had a for a very long time", we  
all know that :-) The initial point was an agreement that as a  
desktop we have nothing to advertise successfully _right now_ and  
the question what we _could_ advertise w/o disappointing people.


Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the  
message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet)  
and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to  
become a desktop in the first place. This is legitimate, but I am  
convinced this has negative impacts on the "progress" of the entire  
project.


I happen to think that's completely wrong ... as I don't know of  
anyone who doesn't want GNUstep to become a desktop (in the sense of  
being opposed to it), and even if some people were opposed to it that  
doesn't mean they would be able to prevent it ... as there are  
certainly no such people among the core developers.
My strong feeling is that most developers ideally want GNUstep to be  
an entire system!


Nicola correctly said that the best thing about GNUstep is the  
Foundation library. Though I have a few issues (eg bad out-of-the- 
box FHS support) it can certainly be considered finished.

Now the question is whether we can somehow advertise this fact?


So the question is whether gstep-base could be interesting for  
people and why. Can we put that into an ad which triggers someone?


Why do you think do we have "nothing to advertise successfully"  
after all those years? Do you really believe it is sufficient to  
advertise solely GNUstep base in some form or another in these  
days? Even though it is possible to do good marketing w/o having  
any product, it won't actually be easy to successfully promote  
GNUstep in the enterprise world in these days... Also, what exactly  
is the purpose of the amazing Gorm application when there is no  
usable UI environment (exaggerating, I know)? The real strength of  
OpenStep/Cocoa is IMO the AppKit in conjunction with IB/Gorm, hence  
this is what we should focus on (and advertise), even if it's not  
yet 100% there! Of course this will again trigger the discussion  
wrt a real GNUstep desktop environment, I am afraid ;-)


Anyway, what would be your proposal?


In the absence of a complete environment ... we need to attract  
people to do two things ...
1. make the gui smoothly compatible with gnome/kde as a transitional  
thing and to attract developers who want to use the API and Gorm, but  
also want to write apps the rest of the free software community can use.

2. build the new apps ... so we will have a complete environment.

So I agree that advertising the ease of use of Gorm and the gui API  
would probably be a very good thing.





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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Helge Hess]

On Sep 11, 2006, at 21:07, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote:
Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the  
message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet)  
and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to  
become a desktop in the first place.


I didn't say that your writing was wrong or that the phrasing was  
suboptimal. I just think that you put things out of context.


Why do you think do we have "nothing to advertise successfully"  
after all those years?



I'm not quite sure whether you read my mail. All your points are good  
but thats a different thread, and one which I'm not very motivated to  
discuss again ;-) In fact thats what I liked about Nicola's proposal,  
it suggests to do something with the things we actually do have,  
right now, instead of arguing about what GNUstep could be.



Anyway, what would be your proposal?


I've no proposal which is why I _asked_ for suggestions on how it  
would be possible to turn Nicola's idea into something which can be  
advertised. I'm kinda confused why you reask the same question to me.


Helge
--
Helge Hess
http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/helge/




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Re: Debug as default...

[Riccardo]

Hey,

On Sunday, September 10, 2006, at 07:40 AM, Gregory John Casamento wrote:

I'm mentioning this again in order to start a discussion on the 
pros/cons of doing this.


since I find that lately gnustep is sluggish enough by itself and swaps 
wildly while loading... I'd vote against that.
A reasonable setup would be to have it on for the svn version, but 
disabled in the release tarballs?

Or should be more seriously speak about stable and unstable releases?
O just enable -g with "make debug=yes" it makes more sense to me than 
"strip=yes"


-R



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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Riccardo]

Hey,

On Sunday, September 10, 2006, at 02:33 PM, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote:

Personally I would integrate Etoilé into GNUstep (granted the authors  
agree), update the GNUstep website to reflect this new "GNUstep  
paradigm"  ("GNUstep" being a GNU desktop for X11 based Unices) and  
then advertise this as "GNUstep Alpha" or so (the frameworks/ libraries 
can still be used as cross-platform API, of course).


I would not integrate etoile' at all!
also the new website should advertise the new paradigm, but not forget 
the old one, which remains perfectly valid.


Also, gnustep... starts to be a bit usable on windows... several 
programs work reasonably well. This is a very nice thing and goes beyond 
the "DE scope"


Tos um up, I would definitively accept advertising, we need that, but 
care has to be taken in what to advertise.
I would NOT use the term Desktop Environment AT ALL. It is something too 
closely related to GNOME, KDE. As I mentioned earlier, many people would 
fail to accept older macos 10.0/10.1 or even MS windows 2000 as a viable 
DE.


my personal idea, very vaguely, would be to stress
-overall user experience ("hinting at a desktop with other terms) and 
thus pointing at our unusual but interesting UI style (not just the 
widgets, the programs them selves)
-the ease of coding and developing (even in NeXT time this was a major 
seller)


On the website itself, I would put a better emphasis on related projects 
like backbone, GAP and etoile, but would not mention them in our 
advertising.


the ideas here are by no means complete!

-R



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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Nicola Pero]

> Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the message
> behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet) and never
> will because some project members don't want GNUstep to become a
> desktop in the first place. This is legitimate, but I am convinced
> this has negative impacts on the "progress" of the entire project.

Just in case you're referring to me, I do want a GNUstep desktop :-)

I don't personally use a desktop myself (unless you call a barebone
WindowMaker + xterm a 'desktop'), but a complete GNUstep desktop
that provides a free implementation of a NeXTstep/Apple Mac OS X
type desktop is/would be a fantastic thing to have! ;-)

Thanks





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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Philippe C.D. Robert]

On 11.09.2006, at 22:06, Helge Hess wrote:

On Sep 11, 2006, at 21:07, Philippe C.D. Robert wrote:
Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the  
message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet)  
and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to  
become a desktop in the first place.


I didn't say that your writing was wrong or that the phrasing was  
suboptimal. I just think that you put things out of context.


Why do you think do we have "nothing to advertise successfully"  
after all those years?



I'm not quite sure whether you read my mail. All your points are  
good but thats a different thread, and one which I'm not very  
motivated to discuss again ;-) In fact thats what I liked about  
Nicola's proposal, it suggests to do something with the things we  
actually do have, right now, instead of arguing about what GNUstep  
could be.


Yes, I tend to read the emails I reply to. Anyway, we do have Gorm  
right now, we also have GWorkspace, we have a good Mail app and so  
on ;-)


I guess I simply doubt the importance of gstep-base as a promoter for  
the GNUstep project. Moreover, regarding the enterprise business as a  
potential option to advertise GNUstep, I am just not sure it will  
work because it did not work for the last decade or so.



Anyway, what would be your proposal?


I've no proposal which is why I _asked_ for suggestions on how it  
would be possible to turn Nicola's idea into something which can be  
advertised. I'm kinda confused why you reask the same question to me.


Well, probably because I am curious to hear whether you have an idea  
yourself? ;-)


-Phil
--
Philippe C.D. Robert
http://www.nice.ch/~phip




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Re: Advertisement for gnustep

[Philippe C.D. Robert]

On 11.09.2006, at 21:44, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
Well, maybe was the phrasing slightly suboptimal, but not the  
message behind it ... ;-) Besides, we don't have a desktop (yet)  
and never will because some project members don't want GNUstep to  
become a desktop in the first place. This is legitimate, but I am  
convinced this has negative impacts on the "progress" of the  
entire project.


I happen to think that's completely wrong ... as I don't know of  
anyone who doesn't want GNUstep to become a desktop (in the sense  
of being opposed to it), and even if some people were opposed to it  
that doesn't mean they would be able to prevent it ... as there are  
certainly no such people among the core developers.
My strong feeling is that most developers ideally want GNUstep to  
be an entire system!


You are correct, sorry if I was not precise. It's not about nobody  
wants GNUstep to become a desktop, it is about priorities. Should  
GNUstep be promoted/pushed as a (Unix) desktop environment or should  
it be a pure (cross-platform) framework which can then be used to  
write a desktop or whatever. Whenever this discussion came up many  
valuable contributors expressed their sympathy for the latter option.  
Now again, this is legitimate, but it has - obviously - strong  
influences on the project itself.


-Phil
--
Philippe C.D. Robert
http://www.nice.ch/~phip




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Re: Debug as default...

[Gregory John Casamento]

Riccardo,

Could you be more specific about what architectures, how much memory, what 
operating system you are seeing the sluggishness on?   If there are performance 
bottlenecks in GNUstep, this information would be extremely helpful in rooting 
out any problems which might exist.

On both of my intel machines, a 700 MHz Pentium III and a 3.2GHz Dual P4, 
GNUstep is quite fast.   Additionally, it works very well on my SPARC5 under 
Solaris.   Which machines are you seeing a problem on? 

Later,

--Gregory Casamento

- Original Message 
From: Riccardo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Gregory John Casamento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: GNUstep Developers 
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 5:43:21 PM
Subject: Re: Debug as default...

Hey,

On Sunday, September 10, 2006, at 07:40 AM, Gregory John Casamento wrote:

> I'm mentioning this again in order to start a discussion on the 
> pros/cons of doing this.

since I find that lately gnustep is sluggish enough by itself and swaps 
wildly while loading... I'd vote against that.
A reasonable setup would be to have it on for the svn version, but 
disabled in the release tarballs?
Or should be more seriously speak about stable and unstable releases?
O just enable -g with "make debug=yes" it makes more sense to me than 
"strip=yes"

-R







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