Re: [Goanet]Death from malaria
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## This commentary from Frederick Noronha aptly illustrates the kind of "moderation" he exercises in this forum. And to think that he is ever so ready to call on others to behave, in his capacity as "list moderator"! What a joke... Rui Collaço From: "Frederick Noronha(FN)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, Bernado Colaco wrote: Was it malaria or plague or was it Pombal with other ideas to move to Pangim? BTW and according to Dr. Floirano de Mello malaria was defended against before 61. Let ignorance not partake this precious list! Of course it wasn't malaria, and surely not plague. How could anyone even conceive anything negative happening in pre-1961 Goa? FN _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/
RE: [Goanet]Goan presence in Portugal
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Vivian, the history of Goan presence and achievement in portugal is a long and brilliant one. Many goans are not aware of this at all, and it would be great if someone someday set out to research this theme. I only mentioned a few names that I could recall instantly, but there are many examples of successful Goans in the 20th century. In fact, I think the early Goans in Portugal made such a good mark here that they created an enduring and prestigious image for Goans. Even today, some people have a high regard for you if you are a Goan, irrespective of what you are and what you do. Tony Barro's article on East Africa is a most interesting one. I would like to get back to that, and add my own account about Mozambique, if and when I find the time. I do not think the Portuguese policies had any influence on British attitudes. Quite on the contrary, it was British / Anglo-saxon influence via neighbouring Rodhesia and South Africa that explained some racism that existed in colonial Mozambique, and which by all accounts was not noticeable in Angola. There is one instance however, worth mentioning. When, in the 80's, the UK and Portugal were negotiating with China, for returning HK and Macau to Chinese sovereignty, the British Govt.(Margaret Tatcher) put a lot of pressure on Portugal not to grant Portuguese citizenship to the people of Macau, fearing that they would flock to the UK.There was some friction between the two countries at the time, bu the Port. Govt. did not budge and stood on principle. Which is why there are more than a 100.000 people in Macau with Portuguese nationality (all those who were born there under Portuguese rule). They have the right to live in Portugal and some did just that, but the majority remained in Macau. The UK created the infamous Nationality Bill instead, which made Hong-Kong British nationals second-class citizens, without the right to reside in the UK. The Hong-kong civic and democratic leaders at the time praised the portuguese attitude and held it as an example before the British colonial administration, demanding equal rights with the people of Macau, apparently without success. Rui Collaço From: Vivian D'Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]Rui Collaco's posting on Goan achievers in Portugal Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Glad to hear that so many Goans achieved so much in Portugal. This was probably a testament to the Portuguese people and the Portuguese government which was not as color conscious and racist as the British were particularly in the colonial days. Tony Barros's reference to the achievements of Dr. Paes is due to his having lived in British East Africa where Goans while highly regarded, were still kept in place by the British. During Colonial days in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, there was a hospital known as the European Hospital, later re-named Ocean Road Hospital, and another hospital called the Sewa Haji Hospital. The European hospital catered to Europeans and the Sewa Haji Hospital was for Asians and Africans. However, there was a special Goan ward at the European hospital. The birth certificate of those of us born in Dar es Salaam showed the place of birth as at the European Hospital. Clearly the European Hospital had better facilities as this was the era of racism and segregation. Did the Portuguese Government because of its enlightened policies push the British Government for this arrangement for all its citizens, irrespective of race ? _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
RE: [Goanet] England the best team???
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Typical "British" arrogance!!! The whole world was able to see which team played better football! Surely it wasn't England...they can go home now, so that our police takes a break! Rui Collaço Lisboa Well today is the day of reckoning, since no one has taken my offer I close the betting. May the best team win, surely the best team is England. cheers, Gabe. _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
RE: [Goanet]Re: Portuguese translation -- 100x , 1000x
The corrections aren't over yet: No Portuguese speaker would ever say "tantas vezes que for necessário". This is incorrect, bad Portuguese. "Tantas vezes quantas for necessário" would be the normal expression. Rui Manuel Collaço For me, "hundred times, or thousand times" continue to mean "as many times.. ", and Loiola Pereira's (cem vezes) or Jorge Abreu's (mil vezes) are as good as my "tantas vezes que for necessário". Teotonio R. de Souza _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Paedophilia
One should conclude that for this gentleman, paedophilia is a "whiteman's" (sic) curse, or in other words, there are no Indian paedophiles, or black or yellow ones, for that matter! As as have said before on this forum, there's no end to ridicule. And ridiculous statements should be exposed..to ridicule. I wonder what he means by white man. Men with white skin? Western men, but only the whites? All westerners, regardless of skin colour? His language is obviously outdated, he still sees the world in black and white, missing all the variousl colours of mankind, in this era of globalisation. His prejudiced words against the "white man" could just as easily have come from any of the RSS extremists / hindu fundamentalists that rule India at present. Rui Manuel Collaço From: Miguel Braganza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear Bernado, Perversion for the whiteman has gone well beyond ogling at midribs and belly buttons.Kids call it 'Philadelphia', the illiterate call it a 'pida' [curse] and the language-savvy call it paedophilia. You do not need help from compatriots for that . An impoverished,illiterate, unbathed, migrant child will do fine for the 'job'. It has been documented in a film called 'Bhaile' that has been screened in Lisboa on Goa Day. Ask those who have seen it or contact Constatine Hermans Xavier for a CD copy. _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Re: Japan
From: "Nagesh Bhatcar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Goanet]Re: Japan Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2004 16:26:26 + I>The Japanese might have been shocked into submission by the 2 atomic bombs in 1945, but are always known to consider themselves as superior to other races. The Germans are similar. Hitler and the Nazis are still revered by some. The truth of the matter, Mr. Bhatcar, is that both the Japanese and the Germans have a lot to be proud of. They are among the most powerful and prosperous nations of the world, and have risen to that status after having been destroyed in WW II. No small feat, I suppose. The problem sometimes is other peoples' sense of "inferiority", not their attitude. Yes, Hitler is still revered, by some (few) Germans. So what? At least their behaviour is closely watched by the authorities and anti-nazi laws are strictly enforced in Germany. I am far more worried about Advani and the RSS. His public utterances, warnings and threats are terrifying.The difference between Hitler and Advani is that the former had absolute power in his hands, the latter hasn't had it - yet. Both belong to the same category, and so do the Nazi party and the RSS. At this time, there is a fair amount of anti-Muslim sentiment in the US. White Supremacists, KKK and Neo-Nazis exist in the US and hate other races. You forgot to mention there is RSS in India, which hates Muslims and Christians. At this moment, there's a fair amount of anti-Muslim and anti-Christian sentiment in India, to the point of Muslims being massacred by the thousands (Gujarat), and Christian missionaries and followers being killed or persecuted or threatened. I don't expect religious bias or racism to ever go away from the face of this earth. I agree with you on this point, although I believe things are getting better, on the whole. Rui Collaço From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am aware that they are somewhat racist, but then all asian countries are far more racist than western countries. India is more racist than Japan, Indians just despise Africans, for example. But I maintain that Japan is the most civilised country in the world. When I was there I was treated like royalty, even by total strangers to me. One has to understand that Japan never had much exposure to the outside world, traditionally, it was a "closed" country until WW II. Until very recently, there were no foreigners living among the Japanese. All that is changing fast now. I do not think they have a caste system - that is unique to India. Japan has a rigidly hierarchical society, but one that is upwardly mobile, unlike the caste system. Rui Collaço _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Re: Japan
I am aware that they are somewhat racist, but then all asian countries are far more racist than western countries. India is more racist than Japan, Indians just despise Africans, for example. But I maintain that Japan is the most civilised country in the world. When I was there I was treated like royalty, even by total strangers to me. One has to understand that Japan never had much exposure to the outside world, traditionally, it was a "closed" country until WW II. Until very recently, there were no foreigners living among the Japanese. All that is changing fast now. I do not think they have a caste system - that is unique to India. Japan has a rigidly hierarchical society, but one that is upwardly mobile, unlike the caste system. Rui Collaço From: "Bosco - Goanet Volunteer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]Re: Any Goans in Japan? Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 20:02:08 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:19:59 + (GMT), CORNEL DACOSTA wrote: Rui, Japan is pretty civilized on the surface and for the brief visitor. Below the surface, the Japanese are invariably pretty racist. Ask the Koreans who have lived there for generations as well as other minorities, including Indians who have gone there to work, in recent years, because of labour shortages in areas the Japanese look at with disdain. This point is well researched and I am particularly intrigued that Japan has a caste structure focussed on the lowest 'out' group, not terribly different from what you find in Goa/India. Cornel _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Re:Translation into Portuguese
Pretty miserable attempt at translation. This is bad Portuguese! Rui Manuel Collaço -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Teotonio R. de Souza Sent: 04 March 2004 13:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]Re:Translation into Portuguese [Ramesh, é inteiramente culpa sua. Não devias ter casado com aquela mulher. "I will say it a hundred times- Tara is just like her mother." [Direi tantas vezes que seja for necessário - Tara é tal e qual a sua mãe] _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Loot & plunder! My reply
Mr. Nair, I will try to answer your questions: From: "Radhakrishnan Nair" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Rui Collaco wrote: Hehehe, there are no limits on ridicule by some people. Mr. Nair, would you kindly care to explain, to the benefit of all ignorant people, like myself, in what manner and in what measure were the Portuguese and the Goans who worked for their administration plundering India's wealth?) Mr Collaco, do you honestly think that the Portuguese were ruling Goa for charity -- doing us a favour by being our colonial masters? Honestly, I do not believe they were ruling Goa for charity - that's a silly idea. But any expert on the Portuguese empire will tell you that, for the most part of their 451-year rule, Goa was a burden for Portugal, not an asset. Portugal had large possessions in Africa to explore, Goa had just a symbolic and emotional value. As long as there was an empire, Goa had to remain part of it, for political reasons, but economically speaking Portugal had no interest whatsoever in Goa. Has anyone ever heard of a Portuguese company operating in Goa? I see that you have no knowledge about Goa's recent history and about the Portuguese in Goa, other than what you perhaps read in the textbooks, which is understandable since you are not from Goa. However, you would do well to get yourself informed and documented on these issues, before uttering your categoric statements on the Portuguese looting India, etc.You must also be aware that not all that you hear in Goa is factual, there's a lot of misinformation and plain anti-Portuguese brainwashing in the Goan media. That's ironic, because I don't find an equivalent anglophobia in the rest of India. (Rui Collaco: Of course, leave alone the Dempo, Chowgulle, Timblo and Salgaokar families. They were just patriotic Indians whom the Portuguese allowed to come to Goa, to earn a decent living from their sweat and toil!) Why drag the names of successful businessmen into this controversy? They got rich by exploiting the system and buttering the right side of the bread -- both Portuguese and Indian. Why didn't you succeed, Mr Collacco? No point in weeping over spilt milk! It is just a way of showing who got rich under the Portuguese, it was the ...Indians, and I can see your discomfort with this fact. You would be at a loss to find the name of a single white Portuguese who got rich in Goa in the 20th century. As for myself, well, I couldn't succeed, Mr. Nair, as I wasn't born yet when India invaded Goa. But, by european standards, I assure you I am successful in Portugal. I am not rich, but success in this country is not measured by the wealth you amass, it's got to do more with your standard of living. It appears that for you only millionaires are successful people! Perhaps that's part of the Indian psyche (Rui Collaco: Just to be brief on this pathethic issue, let me tell you Mr. Nair, the wealth of India is being plundered even as we exchange e-mails by your elected politicians and corrupt officials, massively!) I agree with you. Please suggest a way to stem the rot! Btw, don't your Portuguese politicians rob you people? Where there are humans, there is corruption. Of course we also have corrupt politicians and officials, but corruption is investigated and prosecuted in this country. Important people end up in jail, when proved guilty. In any case, its scale is not comparable to that of India, no way. Portugal is among the least corrupt countries, according to the international ranking by transparency International (please check www.transparency.org/corruption perception index CPI-2003). (Rui Collaco: If anyone amassed wealth during the Port. regime it was the Indian merchants and the local Goan elite before them, definitely not the Portuguese! It is easy for a serious person to find this out. But then again, getting rich honestly does not equate to "plundering India's wealth", except for some confused minds!) Are you sure that the Portuguese gained nothing from the nefarious activities of Indian merchants and the Goan elite? Then the Portuguese were an incompetent lot, no doubt about it. Please tell me how to find this out. There is absolutely no way to get fabulously rich "honestly", Mr Collacco -- except, maybe, by winning a mega lottery twice or thrice! Behind every dazzling wealth there's a crime -- maybe more than one crime. I've no confusion in my mind about it at all! Regards, RKN There's a lot you can read about the history of the Portuguese empire, written by experts, Indian, Portuguese and from many other nationalities. Your theory about getting rich is amazing! By your own assertion, the successful businessman of Goa are crooks and criminals. So are the Tatas and the Birlas and all the billionaires of India. Are things really that bad in India? In this country, some peo
RE: [Goanet]Re: Any Goans in Japan?
I know there was one Goan teaching Portuguese at a Tokyo University (Sofia university?), for many years. He is Marinho Álvares, from Loutulim, and is probably retired by now. When I was in Japan in 1999 I thought of looking for him, but my 10 days there were too busy for that. Wish you a nice stay, my wife and I enjoyed every moment of it, especially Kyoto, it's precious. I found Japan to be the most civilised country in the world. Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: Venantius J Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]Re: Any Goans in Japan? Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:39:38 -0500 Hello folks, We will be visiting Japan for a month starting March 4, and would like to meet any Goan residents in Kyoto, Hiroshima, Osaka, Nara, Kyushu-Fukuoka, Nagasaki & Kagoshima, Kochi; Hokkaido, Miyagi, Shizuoka, Kanagawa, Tokyo and places that maybe be nearby to these. Cecilia and I will be in Kyoto, Hiroshima and Tokyo for a few days where I will be studying some hanga carving/printing, sketching and the rest will be spent blitzing across on the Japan Rail pass. Our stays are planned. However, I am particularly keen on meeting people, sharing visual ideas and experiencing a Japanese tempered Goan-ness if one has indeed evolved. Any response will be much appreciated, Venantius J Pinto + Cecilia Castelino-Pinto 664 West 163 Street, #57 New York, NY 10032-4527 USA ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]History or fantasy?
Gilbert, do not expect me to carry out historical research for you. I am no historian, and that's not what I do in my free time. I prefer R&R. However, from my general knowledge, I can tell the difference between historical facts and attempts at revisionism, and I keep an eye on such developments. One good example is someone's claim, on TGF, that the portuguese "looted Goa's mineral wealth". Only in bad faith can anyone make such an outrageouly untrue statement. My opinions are always based on facts that I forward in my posts or that are only too evident. One example is the recent thread on "Goans in goa's administration". Much has been said about the IAS but, so far, nobody has denied that Goans are a minority in Goa's civil service, at the top ranks and probably in the entire civil service, at all ranks. And the fact is that under the Portuguese "colonialism", the vast majority of civil servants, including top ranking ones, were Goan, both Catholic and Hindu. In addition, Goans were employed in large numbers in the administration of the other Port. colonies and of mainland Portugal itself, and still are, in all sorts of positions, including judges, ambassadors, university professors, top officials, etc.. Rui Collaço History or fantasy? Rui Collaco: Inquisition as a land-grab? Thousands of Portuguese migrants pouring into Goa and taking up those lands? Boat-loads of Jews coming to Goa as "refugees" from...Portugal? And then getting killed in Goa? Sometimes I find it difficult to believe what I read on GoaNet... Gilbert responds: Thanks for following this thread. I think some of what you are saying may be true and I wish you had provided some statistics to your statements. Since you live in Portugal, you and your Goan friends can be a valuable source of factual/scientific information to this discussion. _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Plunder the wealth of India???
Hehehe, there are no limits on ridicule by some people. Mr. Nair, would you kindly care to explain, to the benefit of all ignorant people, like myself, in what manner and in what measure were the Portuguese and the Goans who worked for their administration plundering India's wealth? All the relevant facts will be welcome - objective situations, companies, persons, dates, amount of wealth plundered, etc. Of course, leave alone the Dempo, Chowgulle, Timblo and Salgaokar families. They were just patriotic Indians whom the Portuguese allowed to come to Goa, to earn a decent living from their sweat and toil! Just to be brief on this pathethic issue, let me tell you Mr. Nair, the wealth of India is being plundered even as we exchange e-mails by your elected politicians and corrupt officials, massively! If anyone amassed wealth during the Port. regime it was the Indian merchants and the local Goan elite before them, definitely not the Portuguese! It is easy for a serious person to find this out. But then again, getting rich honestly does not equate to "plundering India's wealth", except for some confused minds! Rui Collaço Lisboa (Rui Collaco: So why is it OK for Goans to be bossed over mostly by non-Goan officers? Just because they are brown-skinned, even though they may come from 2000 kms away? Do they know more about Goa than the handful of Portuguese officials and the thousands of Goans of all ranks who were part of the colonial administration? I doubt very much.) Someone should tell this Collaco that the "thousands of Goans" who were part of the Portuguese administration were basically helping that regime to plunder the wealth of India.> Best wishes, RKN _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet] Ogling at women
Am I mistaken? I don't think so. Indians prefer to ogle at Goan women and foreign female tourists because there's something in them to ogle at, in other words, they show part of their bodies (thank God, for beauty is to be seen and praised!). I don't see why and how they should ogle at their own women, dressed from head to toe as is the norm! You do not discriminate? Not quite so. Try talking to any African that has lived in India. He will say it is one of the most racist societies in the world. Not to speak of lower castes,harijans, tribes, etc. who endure all sorts of indignities, especially their women. Rui Collaço Lisboa From: halur rasho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Goanet]Goans in IAS? Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:24:29 -0800 (PST) < You are mistaken, Senhor, Indians ogle all women, regrdless of colour, nationality or ethinicity. We do not discriminate. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##I _ MSN Hotmail, o maior webmail do Brasil. http://www.hotmail.com ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Goans in IAS
Mr. Nair, I think I know the difference between a federal set-up and a colonial administration. One of the main differences is that in a genuine federation (India being a mockery of the federal concept) there is central/federal recruitment only for federal jobs (like the armed forces, foreign service, federal justice and federal agencies), state jobs are filled by locally recruited staff. This is the case with the USA. In a colonial administration, by contrast, people are centrally recruited on a much wider scale and deputed to the colonies. Looking at Goa today, it has a situation more akin to the latter description, rather than that of a federate state in a true federation! Most of its top civil service jobs are in the hands of the "feds" and most of the other jobs in the hands of outsiders. Rui Collaço Lisboa From: "Radhakrishnan Nair" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]Goans in IAS Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:08:56 +0530 (Rui Collaco: So why is it OK for Goans to be bossed over mostly by non-Goan officers? Just because they are brown-skinned, even though they may come from 2000 kms away? Do they know more about Goa than the handful of Portuguese officials and the thousands of Goans of all ranks who were part of the colonial administration? I doubt very much.) What's wrong with these Collaco/Colaco/Colaccos? They don't seem to know the basic difference between a federal set-up and a colonial administration. This Collaco is suggesting that the Portuguese administration was better because there were only a handful of Portuguese (white) officials and thousands of (black) Goans then, instead of the (brown) Indian bureaucracts who now "boss over" the poor, hapless Goenkars! What if the Mumbaikers felt that way when Julio Ribeiro was the Police Commissioner of Bombay? Or when Eduardo Faleiro was a federal Minister? Someone should tell this Collaco that the "thousands of Goans" who were part of the Portuguese administration were basically helping that regime to plunder the wealth of India. As for the absence of Goans in the Civil Services, I recall an incident in the eighties when the AIR, Panjim, invited applications for the post of Transmission Executives. Nearly 500 candidates appeared for a written test but not one of them cleared the test! Let the Goan youth equip themselves for competitive exams, and it's my firm belief that not one of them will be rejected on the ground that they are Goan. On the other hand, it's just impossible to recruit anyone to the Civil Services merely because he/she happens to be a Goan or Mallu or Kannadiga. India's reservation basket is already full and overflowing, but that's another issue. Best wishes, RKN _ Contact brides & grooms FREE! http://www.shaadi.com/ptnr.php?ptnr=hmltag Only on www.shaadi.com. Register now! ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Re: Goans in the IAS?
Frederick, I did not miss the point, I just did not find any point! You are always clear and reasoned when dwelling on other issues, specially on Portuguese colonialism, so why should you be so ambiguous and unassertive when the issue is related to Goa's current set-up? You mention "Goans' inability to form a shared understanding of their sense of history". Does this justify having Goa's administration colonised by non-Goans, from top to bottom? Those "hundreds of years of contradictions and bitterness between goans", is it the exclusive prerogative of Goans? Are you saying that there are no contradictions and bitterness, on a much wider scale, among Indians in general? What has this to do with the current state of affairs in Goa? Goans cannot unite, so non-Goans get a free ride, is that the implication? I may partially accept this, but not the rest. And I wish I could understand why you bring up the "caste-based battles" of yesteryears. We are talking about the staffing of Goa's civil service! Let me ask you, isn't India a caste-based society, even today, as much as its politicians and inteligentsia try to claim otherwise? Is there any community more caste-conscious than the Hindus, in India? Last but not least, I have not tried to portray things in a "good-guys vs bad-guys" manner. That's your insinuation. My turn to say that you missed my point. Non-Goan IAS officers can be very good ones, and Goan officers could be incompetent ones. Self-evident and unquestionable, as much as it is besides the point. And the point is this: does it make sense to you, educated and right-thinking Goans, to have ended Portuguese colonial rule, and rightly so, whose colonial administration was staffed mostly by Goans even at the highest echelons, and now find yourselves with an administration staffed mostly by non-Goans, at all levels? No contradiction here? Is this what the "liberation" is all about - replacing the Portuguese with Indians, on a massively increased scale, and give Goans only the spoils? Is this what the "freedom fighters" fought for? I don't think so! Rui Collaço Lisboa From: "Frederick Noronha (FN)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]Re: Goans in the IAS? Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:32:40 +0530 (IST) Rui, you missed the point I was making. Besides, when I say "many reasons have been given", I obviously don't buy the logic. My belief is that the inability of Goans (of all religions, regions and caste-groups) to form a shared understanding of their sense of history, geography, politics and culture, has fallen everyone costly. Not just on the IAS issues. I maintain too that the local = good and non-local = bad education is far too simplistic. Having IAS (or whatever) officers who care, however, would make a big difference. The same applies for journalists and even non-residents. Of course, we could always argue about what the term *care* means. FN PS: Apologies that my argument below doesn't fit into your categorisation of the good-guys and the bad-guys in post-1961 Goa. Rui Collaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:50:12 + It is very disappointing to watch how journalist Frederick Noronha tries to explain the unexplainable. For him, Goa's small size is the obstacle! Is India a union of big states or a union of states? Can anyone imagine... Rui Manuel Collac,o Lisbon >From: "Frederick Noronha (FN)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >That's true. Goa doesn't have its own IAS cadre. > >Many reasons have been given for this; primarily the state's small size. >My hunch is that the prime factor is that Goans don't trust each other >enough. We have hundreds of years of contradictions and bitterness among >ourselves to be still sorted out. It's no point blaming communalism alone, >because even when it wasn't around in its current form, we still had a lot >of caste-based battles which dominated Goa for much of the 20th century. > >Having said that, one would like to caution against a simplistic >categorisation of "Goan IAS = good" and "outside-state IAS = bad". We >have seen some fairly good IAS officers work in Goa during its Union >Territory days. I really have no answer of what has changed since, and >why. > >One could assume that a local officer might have more concern for 'getting >things right' in his or her home state. But this isn't always the case. >Does this logic work, say, for politicians? And many others who play a >crucial role in guiding the destiny of Goa? >
RE: [Goanet]No English medium schools in Goa???
Just to state that my father was sent from Mozambique to Goa to study in an English-medium school, in 1941, because he wanted to study in English! I believe he studied in what was then the "People's High School", in Panjim (forgive me if I am wrong, I did not check this with him). One more example of how inaccurate facts or outright lies pass as "information" in the Goan media! Even my grandfather did his schooling in English, in Goa, (and in Salcete, where he was born), before migrating to Mozambique in 1918. Rui Collaço Lisboa From: Jose Colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]Did you know.? New confident nonsense in the IGO! Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 22:18:36 -0800 (PST) http://www.rajannarayan.com/ Jan 24, 2004 In the article "GOAN GOING GONE" in the International Goan Observer, the following quote was noted:" Before liberation there were NO English medium schools or colleges in Goa" Based on the above confident nonsense, one would have to assume that Holy Cross Convent, Bastora; Holy Cross Convent, Siolim, St Thomas School, Aldona and Loyola School, Margao (to name a few) were in Pakistan! Alfred de Tavares..you have now been judged to have attented a NON-ENGLISH medium school in Goa! Thank you Rajan Narayanfor that Revision. You are getting there.in the company of the Revisionists alright jc Doesn't anyone check this categoric stuff before it goes to print? __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Goans in IAS?
It is very disappointing to watch how journalist Frederick Noronha tries to explain the unexplainable. For him, Goa's small size is the obstacle! Is India a union of big states or a union of states? Can anyone imagine Maharashtra's or Karnataka's or UP's state administrations being massively colonised by...Goan officers? No way! So why is it OK for Goans to be bossed over mostly by non-Goan officers? Just because they are brown-skinned, even though they may come from 2000 kms away? Do they know more about Goa than the handful of Portuguese officials and the thousands of Goans of all ranks who were part of the colonial administration? I doubt very much. Noronha's "soft" and almost apologetic approach to such a decisive issue for the future of goans sounds weird. His call for "deeper understanding of the issue" must be music to the ears of the Indian authorities. They can carry on with their high-handedness regarding Goa and Goans. They know that no reaction can be expected from them. Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Frederick Noronha (FN)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goans in IAS? Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:29:43 +0530 (IST) On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Daryl Martyris wrote: > I've been noticing that lot of directors and secretaries of government > departments are not Goans. I heard recently that the IAS still does not have > a Goa cadre. Is this true? Does anyone know why is this is so? Is it because > not enough Goans qualify for the IAS to deserve a seperate cadre? Does > anyone know if any Goan has ever joined the IAS? > I would think that not having a separate cadre is a tacit admission that > Goans lack the capacity to be good administrators. > > Of course this doesn't imply that governance will automatically become any > better if Goans head the departments, nor am I necessarily advocating a "Goa > for Goans" theme. I'm just curious. That's true. Goa doesn't have its own IAS cadre. Many reasons have been given for this; primarily the state's small size. My hunch is that the prime factor is that Goans don't trust each other enough. We have hundreds of years of contradictions and bitterness among ourselves to be still sorted out. It's no point blaming communalism alone, because even when it wasn't around in its current form, we still had a lot of caste-based battles which dominated Goa for much of the 20th century. Having said that, one would like to caution against a simplistic categorisation of "Goan IAS = good" and "outside-state IAS = bad". We have seen some fairly good IAS officers work in Goa during its Union Territory days. I really have no answer of what has changed since, and why. One could assume that a local officer might have more concern for 'getting things right' in his or her home state. But this isn't always the case. Does this logic work, say, for politicians? And many others who play a crucial role in guiding the destiny of Goa? One needs to recall that a number of recent chief ministers, including Manohar Parrikar, have had severe disagreements with the Chief Secretaries, with the later having had to ignomiously withdraw from Goa for political reasons. This is an issue which surely calls for a deeper understanding. FN ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Goans in IAS?
Daryl, if 42 years after the so-called "liberation" there has been no Goa cadre,why would it become an issue now? Only now have you noticed that there are few Goans in the the Goa administration? Don't you know that Goans are a minority in goa's administration, at all levels, from top to bottom? During the colonial administration, only a handful of civil servants were metropolitan Portuguese, the rest (the vast majority) were Goans. Today, I believe only a handful of jobs are occupied by Goans, the majority of posts are taken up by non-Goans. Recently I challenged goanet's Portugal-bashing club to counter this assertion and to provide figures on the percentage of Goans in the administration, but there was not a single reply. I believe the Tourism Dept. has not had a Goan heading it since 1961! This is how liberators treat the "liberated" people, while denouncing the evils of colonialism. Comes with the territory! How would you otherwise sell Goa's image as a land of "sussegad" people (to use Goa's corrupt version of a Portuguese word), easy women (that Indians come to ogle at), and alcohol-drinking Catholics? I am afraid it may be too late in the day to reverse some very serious developments that Goans did not notice over the years. If anyone thought that the "liberation" was an act of Indian "generosity", then it's time to wake up. "Liberation" came with a price. A price that is being paid by Goans, specially the Catholics, in increasing installments! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Daryl Martyris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Goans in IAS? Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:46:53 -0600 I've been noticing that lot of directors and secretaries of government departments are not Goans. I heard recently that the IAS still does not have a Goa cadre. Is this true? Does anyone know why is this is so? Is it because not enough Goans qualify for the IAS to deserve a seperate cadre? Does anyone know if any Goan has ever joined the IAS? I would think that not having a separate cadre is a tacit admission that Goans lack the capacity to be good administrators. Of course this doesn't imply that governance will automatically become any better if Goans head the departments, nor am I necessarily advocating a "Goa for Goans" theme. I'm just curious. best wishes, Daryl ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Re: Christians wanting things the easy way...
No, I do not believe Goan Christians want everything the easy way. I think they want everything the practical way, because they are forward-looking and, unlike most other Indians, they look beyond the borders of India. They Know only too well that the Devanagri script is as alien to them as Japanese or Arab script, and its knowledge will serve no pratical purpose in their lives. Devanagri was imposed on Goans by the "liberators" (just as Hindi was imposed), without the consent of the people, and ignoring the fact that at least the Christian population has no previous knowledge of it, at all. It´s not just the older generation that worries about the Roman script. I don't know any kid from Goa that does not grumble about Devanagri konkani and Hindi. Unfortunately they do not realise they are the victims of a massive campaign of forced "Indianisation" of Goans, which translates into efforts at forced assimilation into the culture of the majority, much as the Portuguese did in Goa 500 years ago. Christians in Goa should be able to be perfect citizens of India without having to be culturally assimilated into the mainstream, thus preserving what was their distinct identity (what has become of it anyway? Remember what Nehru promised?) ). As long as they go along without resisting this process they will go on loosing each and every feature of their erstwhile distinct identity, until they become undistinguishable from other Indians. That's the ultimate goal of the "liberators". And this is happening in the era of globalisation, of multiculturalism, of preservation of each and every difference! A time when Portuguese hindus sport their sarees in Lisbon, go to their temples (partly paid by taxpayer's money) and don't even care to speak Portuguese (some of them), even though living here for some decades now. Welcome to the real world! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Re: Konknni disappearing in Goa Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:24:43 + (Hora padrão de Greenwich) Dear Simon, We know that Roman script is still an important issue to older generations of Goan Christians, but we cannot confuse the script issue with strength or weakness of Konknni language today. Just because Roman script is failing, it is no proof that Konknni in Devanagri is not doing well and even flourishing But from the recent discussion about the use of sh or x in the writing of Konknni in Roman script it was clear how little interest is there on the part of Goan Christians to learn such rules of writing. Can we conclude that Goan Christians want everything the easy way? _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]Directory of Goans in Delhi
It is always nice to hear about a Portuguese citizen participating in an international Indian Ocean Conference! Now, I fail to see what's the usefulness of a Directory of Goans. I do not belong to any of the associations (the vast majority of Goans in Portugal do not feel the need for Goan associations), but I quite understand why there is no such thing. To me, it sounds as weird to have a Directory of Goans as it would be to have a directory of gays & lesbians. For what purpose? For the Goans of Delhi to feast their eyes upon, when one of them comes this way? In any case, it would be a gigantic task, for the number of goans in Lisbon / Portugal is far, far greater than that of Goans in Delhi. Besides, in this country they don't stick around each other much, nor do they live in guethos, so it would not be easy to fill the directory. Such a thing makes sense in Delhi, where Goans feel culturally isolated and completely out of place. In India's capital, Goans certainly constitute a minority and have a sense of community, but not in the capital of Portugal! Rui Miranda Collaço Lisboa From: "TRS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Directory of Goans in Delhi Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:33:10 - I was in Delhi to participate in an international Indian Ocean Conference at the Nehru Memorial Museum and Library, and I was very pleasantly impressed by seeing a copy of the Directory. The copy was arranged for me by my old friend Sushma Sonak. Even Goans in Portugal have not been able to produce one after having more than one well-organized association for years! I was pleased to see some of my cousins, such as Violet Scolt (nee Fernandes) from S. Mathias (Divar) actively involved in the *Goenkarancho Ekvott* in the Pitampura sector of Delhi. One shortcoming seems to be the absence of e-mail addresses, and providing only postal addresses and telephone numbers. ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ MSN Messenger: converse com os seus amigos online. http://messenger.msn.com.br ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: Subject: [Goanet]Journalists in Goa
Mr. Bhatcar, I do know how corrupt previous administrations were. What I do not know is whether this administration is any different from those previous ones! I doubt very much... As for the streets of Panjim being cleaner, great, if it is true (someone said recently on this net that Panjim is cleaner than London and New York! Too bad I don't believe in Santa Claus any longer...) But please make sure you are not looking at a tree and missing the forest behind. As for Salazar and Parrikar, please don't get so worked up. They can't obviously be compared, for any number of reasons. I was obviously mocking Teotonio de Souza's ridiculous reference to Salazar in his initial posting. Some people are so obsessed with Salazar they can't get over it, even after all these years! Rui Collaço Lisbon From: "Nagesh Bhatcar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Subject: [Goanet]Journalists in Goa Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 01:51:13 + Goanetters, The comments about Mr. Parrikar from Mr. Collaco are absolutely childish in nature! To compare Salazar and Parrikar is ludicrous. The howling and hollering against Parrikar, goes on mostly on this forum and comes from a select few, who are hell-bent on discrediting him. I read about no articles that seem to indicate that his government is doing anything good for Goa! That is not how the Goans in Goa feel. I hear of a lot of credit for what he has done for Panjim and Goa. Do you Mr. Collaco, know how corrupt previous administrations were and how they governed Goa? Many of the newely rich people in Goa are MLAs, who came from humble beginnings and could not possibly have built the empires that they own, without having been MLAs or ministers. There is a saying -The people get the government they deserve. Goa is no different. Goans keep on re-electing these corrupt politicians, time and again. The general public on the streets of Goa, is a lot happier with the present government, than with many previous governments. Nagesh From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He should also get himself updated - Salazar died in 1971, now his successor in Goa is the Parrikar regime! Perhaps the difference is only in the name... So much for the so-called (and self-styled) world's largest democracy! Rui Miranda Collaço Lisboa _ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]URGENT! URGENT! CM RSS BLACKMAIL HERALD EDITOR TO RESIGN
Pressures on the press? Systematic sidelining of journalists? "Blocking out of news from the Goa press"? Sacking newspaper editors? Is this going on in "democratic" Goa in 2003? I thought muzzling the press was a feature of dictatorships. What kind of democracy has room for this subversive development? Isn't a free press essential to a democratic set up? Where are all those "freedom fighters", ever so ready and happy to denounce the evils of the colonial regime of more than 40 years ago? The fight is over for them? Have they been silenced too, with their "freedom fighter pensions", college quotas and other privileges? Or perhaps having a free press was not part of what they "fought" for? And the Goan "intelligentsia" in Goa - nobody saying anything on this? Rui Miranda Collaço Lisbon From: "Frederick Noronha (FN)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: goajourno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet]URGENT! URGENT! CM RSS BLACKMAIL HERALD EDITOR TO RESIGN Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:44:10 +0530 (IST) Arguably the issue is more complex than this. Over the years, the blocking out of news from the Goa press has been a growing trend. A number of journalists have been systematically sidelined, and find it very difficult to get published. The pressures on the press, particularly under the current dispensation, is a reality. There are many other journalists who have been sidelined, or silenced over the years. FN -- - _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: Subject: [Goanet]Journalists in Goa
Let me get this straight: Isn't Teotonio de Sousa doing just that - giving bold advice to Goans, from far away? (Lisbon is quite far from Goa...) He does not have to live and survive in Goa any longer, thanks to his Portuguese nationality, and he resides in Lisbon. But he appears to take an interest in Goan affairs, just as I do. He should also get himself updated - Salazar died in 1971, now his successor in Goa is the Parrikar regime! Perhaps the difference is only in the name... So much for the so-called (and self-styled) world's largest democracy! Rui Miranda Collaço Lisboa From: "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Subject: [Goanet]Journalists in Goa Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:57:47 +0100 (Horário de verão de Greenwich) Why are the Journalists in Goa so scared to speak out in Goa? Is the Salazar regime back there? I have read Godfrey Gonsalves lashing out agaisnt RN. I have known Rajan Narayan while still in Goa and admired his contribution to the Konkani cause I do not necessarily disagree with Godfrey. Neither with FN. Real life is much more complex that what appears. But what bothers me and should bother all on goanet, at least those who have to live and survive in Goa (not those who can give can give bold advice from far away) is the fear of democracy! Teotonio ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Enough is enough...
The tone and content of this mail are self-explanatory. It reveals the nature of the mind that sent it. My first reaction was to ignore it, because I feel I am downgrading myself answering this kind of trash. But on second thoughts, I have the right to defend myself from the constant attack I have endured from this gentleman (the "gentle" part of the word may be excessive...). This person not only keeps picking on my posts (which are not personally addressed to him), but also makes a lot of personal questions, revealing a morbid curiosity about my private life, a peculiar characteristic of some people in Goa. He also does that on Goanet, when he could address me directly to my e-mail. I do not think one's private life is of any interest to Goanetters, and the sole reason why I am also replying on Goanet is because I wish to denounce the ways of this person. After all, who is violating the rules of Goanet? Yes, I lived in marxist Mozambique for two years after independence. At that time I was 12, so I couldn't be "trying my luck". Nor was my mother. As a Portuguese civil servant, she signed a 2-year contract with the Frelimo Government, as thousands of others did, in order to ensure a smooth transfer of the Administration to the new authorities. This was envisaged in the Lusaka Agreement of September 1974, between the Portuguese Govt. and the Frelimo Movement. Anything wrong with that? We did not run away, we left as we had planned. My parents did not have the slightest intention of living under a black marxist regime, nor did they ever contemplate abandoning their Portuguese citizenship. This is called coherence. Besides, time has proven them right! By the way, even today there are 30.000 Portuguese citizens in that country, and many have been going there for the first time, to work, and are welcomed by the authorities. After the privatisation process, the Portuguese have regained control of hundreds of companies there, which are among the best performing in the country. So, even if we had stayed there as "aliens", what's the point of your remark? Yes, as I have written before, I had a Portuguese passport. The first passport I had in my name was issued in 1975, in order to travel to Rodhesia on holiday. As a child, I travelled on my mother's passport. What is amazing is your obsession with Portuguese passports. What's in a passport? It's just a travel document. One can spend one's entire life without having a passport. But I am a Portuguese national since birth. I couldn't have a passport if did not have the nationality already. Satisfied? This is like teaching a,b,c to school kids. I bet you also have one (Port. passport, or perhaps you applied for one and were denied it). Where are the self-contradicting statements? Didn't I mention "black Africa" and then Rodhesia and South Africa? You don't seem to know the chronology of recent southern African history, so get yourself documented about that. Until 1980, Rodhesia was ruled by the white-minority Govt. of Ian Smith, and South Africa had the white "apartheid" regime in power, until 1991. Having "reading and comprehension" problems? The name of your relative did not come by accident, and you did not even have to ask, you knew it. It occurred to me because of your ridiculous boast about the "achievers" in your family. In my family, modesty and discretion are considered virtues, so you'll never hear from me about the achievements of my relatives. There are various sides to any "achievement". Out of respect for someone who is no more, I shall refrain from talking about Aquino's "achievements". As for statistics, I realise that you are in a fix, because you can't deny them, so you have to downplay their importance (and yet you consider them interesting reading). But statistics are vital to the truth, specially about past events and historical periods. It appears that not a few Goanetters get worked up when statistics are quoted in support of one's points of view! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: Miguel Braganza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies... Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:51:32 +0530 - Original Message - From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 6:19 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies... > Mr. Bhatcar, you really do not seem to have much knowledge of the world > outside your little Goa. But you should not talk about what you ignore. I > was born and lived in Mozambique up to 1977. I assure you that both > Mozambique and Angola were, at the time they attained independence in 1975, > among the most developed cou
Re: [Goanet]DNA testing????
Santosh, I never denied my Indian ethnic origin. I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise. From what I have read from you, I take you for an intellectually honest person, and intellectual honesty is a rare quality on goanet. I expect you to do me justice on this. I have stated time and again that I am not Indian, in the political sense, meaning that I have no political or cultural affiliation to India, because I am not an Indian citizen. Ethnicity is a different story, it has nothing to do with nationality. Some people do not understand this at all, and keep distorting what I say. I hope it's not your case. Rui Collaço Lisbon From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]DNA testing Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:37:29 - "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Does that mean that if you sample my DNA and that of a white >Portuguese, you can determine my Indian ethnic origin? > Yes, and I appreciate the fact that you don't deny your Indian origin. > >> ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]BS on Goanet
Yes, I am listening. Since you appealed to me also, I have to answer this one. I have not been "singing" about Portugal, not me. I have answered some postings that contained false statements or tarnished Portugal unfairly, or were openly provocative. No more, no less. You have asked for help, so I'll give you my opinion, even though I have been told by someone that Goans in Goa do not need "advice" from Goans in Portugal. There would be no problem, of course, if the "advice" came from the UK, USA, Canada, Australia, Kenya,etc. as long as it came from English-speaking self-styled "true Goans". But I don't give a damn for that recommendation. Road accidents are indeed a major social problem. They have to with: The conditions of roads and related infrastructure and of the vehicles that circulate on them; The level of civic education of drivers; The policies of the Government to tackle the problem. Since I do not wish to "advice" Goans, I'll mention the situation in Portugal. In 1976, for about 1 million cars on the roads, there were 2400 deaths in traffic accidents. Last year, with close to 5 million cars (1 for every 2 persons), there were less than 1700 deaths. As you can see, an impressive achievement, resulting in a dramatic reduction in the death rate in accidents. But that is not enough. We are still above the european average, and the goal is to reduce that number by half. The Government considers this a priority and has taken several measures: 1. Identifying the "black points" (places where the accidents happen more frequently) in the road network and make the necesssary corrections. There is a budget for this special programme. 2. Passing legislation-compulsory crash helmets, compulsory seat-belts on all 5 seats of cars, compulsory special baby-seats in cars,etc. Driving with more than 0,5g/l of alcohol in your blood is an offence, and above 1g / l it is a crime. Penalties include heavy fines, suspension of the driving licence from 6 months to 3 years, registration of all serious offences in your driving licence (after reaching a certain number, you loose it). 3. Enforcing the legislation by providing police with the means to carry out effective controls and checks on drivers. For this the traffic police have high powered cars, motorcycles, radar sets (fixed and mobile), cameras and helicopters. Drivers are routinely checked for alcohol and drugs use. 4. Providing quick medical assistance to accident victims: the whole country is covered by INEM (Instituto Nacional de Emergência Médica), which has medicalized ambulances (the injured are assisted by doctors and nurses inside the ambulance, where they can be ventilated and stabilized, if need be, on the way to the hospital). For the seriouly injured, there are medicalized helicopters, that airlift the injured directly from the accident scene to the nearest hospital. These INEM services have saved many lives, that would otherwise have been lost on the way to the hospitals. Just two other notes. Last month, a young man that caused an accident last year while driving in a state of drunkenness, and cause 2 or 3 deaths, was put on trial for homicide and got a heavy prison term. Increasingly, people who cause deaths are being charged and put on trial. Last year, more than 20 agents of the Brigada de Trânsito (Traffic Brigade) of our otherwise highly professional and efficient paramilitary force GNR (National Republican Guard), were arrested and are waiting trial in prison, charged with corruption. Apparently they were receiving money to turn a blind eye to traffic offences committed by truck drivers (like overloading), the trucks belonging to construction companies in the southern region of Algarve. What triggered the investigation by the police was the fact that some Guardsmen were building huge mansions and driving luxury cars around. Everyone knows that a traffic policeman does not earn the kind of money needed to afford such a lifestyle. The bottom line is:You can't fight road accidents if the police is corrupt. The authorities want to send a clear message to the entire police force. We also have a strong public campaign to fight accidents, with TV spots, outdoor ads, newspaper articles, daily and weekly reports on accidents and constant advice to motorists on all main radio stations, specially at rush hours. Research is conducted on the causes of accidents There is also an association of road accident victims, which is increasingly vocal, and the Government is paying attention to what it has to say. I believe I have done my share about road accidents. It is only a very elementary approach to the problem, but maybe you can borrow an idea or two. Rui Manuel Collaço From: "Valmiki Faleiro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet]BS on Goanet Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:22:32 +0530 "Tirando o mal, todo e bem" (my lingua de Camoens is "ferruge
Re: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies...
What I meant to say was that Angola and Mozambique were "tiger" economies long before the expression was heard. So what if 45% of the GDP comes from oil production? What's the % for Kuwait or Saudi Arabia? In any case, this was not true before 1975, and all my references are to pre-independence Angola. At that time oil production was just starting and did not play a major role. If anyone has any doubts about what I wrote earlier, please ckeck at www.angola.org (basic facts / economic potential). This is an official Govt. of Angola site. See the number of times they refer to 1975 and before as a reference to their economic potential. They claim their country was in 1975 (under Portuguese rule) the world's 4th largest producer of coffee and diamonds, a major mining producer and was sefl-sufficient in agriculture. Angola was a major exporter and had a huge trade surplus, year after year. So why are you insisting on the present-day state of affairs? Don't you think Goanetters are well informed enough about what happened to Angola and Mozambique after their independence from Portugal? In any case, Angola's literacy rate in 2000 (according to figures in that official site) was 49 %. Is that bad compared to India's 58%, after 56 years of independence? I don't think so, it is India that earns negative points on that, not Angola! I doubt that 85% are engaged in subsistence farming, since millions had to abandon the fields and flock to the cities during the civil war, living off the handouts from international agencies. But even if that is true, so what? Isn't it a fact that the vast majority of Indians are subsistence farmers too -"poor guys"? What has the size of a population to do with economic growth rates? Is population size (when it is big) an obstacle to growth or rather a plus factor? Since you had a lough, "this guy" (peculiar kind of language) would like to know how China, with its mamoth population, at least 200 million bigger than India's, has been growing at double-digit rates since the late 70's, making India look like a dwarf next to a giant, and causing great psychological pain to Indians (for very good reasons). There are causes for your "hindu rate of growth" (it is economic jargon, no offense to hindus), but size of the population is not one of them! That's misinformation. Rui Collaço Lisbon From: "gilbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies... Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 11:35:26 - --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Angola's growth rate > was about 9% p.a. (something India has never managed). -- True, but Rui forgot to mention that 45% of Angolas GDP comes from oil production and most of the rest from diamonds, gold and forest produce. As much as 85% of the population is involved in subsistance farming--poor guys. And then a comparison is sought to be made with Indias growth rate, inspite of the fact that Indias poulation is close to a hundred times Angolas! What a laugh. And this guy blames others for misinformation. But this is the goanet, so I will not post anything more about Africa. regards, Gilbert. ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet] Beating a Dead Horse!
Santosh, did I say something that isn't true? What about Ayodhia, Hindu-Muslim clashes all over the country, the Gujarat pogroms and the states' fanatic and communalist CM, the bombs that went off in Bombay in the name of Islam (apparently), the continuing conflict and bloodshed in Kashmir, the threats made to the churches of Goa, isn't all this happening in India? And isn't it all about religion and politics? Have you given a thought to the fact that religion plays too big a role in Indian society (and I mean all religions here), and in Indian politics, considering that it is supposed to be a secular state? I did not single out Indians, I had in mind the internal situation of India, not religious wars on a global scale! That's for Al-Qaeda, for the time being... Rui Collaço Lisbon From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Beating a Dead Horse! Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 19:59:03 - "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >I don's see prejudice on this side, only a growing saturation with > falsehoods stated by known Portugal-bashers, who are the ones >really full of prejudice. > ... > >I believe religion belongs to the private sphere of an individual. >It is a pity most Indians don't think this way. Just too many of >them seem ready to fight religious wars, instead of fighting their >grinding poverty. > One never sees prejudice in oneself, or on one's own side. That is why prejudice exists in this world. That is why Indians (hopefully, of all religions) are singled out, in the above quote, above all peoples, to lay the blame for fighting religious wars. Cheers, Santosh ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]RE: Nationality anim Ethnicity
I disagree. Being Goan defines one's place of birth and / or cultural heritage. I know people here that were born in Goa and their ancestors lived in goa for many generations, but they are white (ethnically non-Indian). They appropriately call themselves Goans. Inversely, neither me nor my father were born in Goa (or India), but we are ethnically Indian.That's where our Indianness stops. We have no political or cultural ties to India. Our roots are in Goa, but Goans do not have a separate ethnic origin. What they do have is a distinct cultural heritage (or what is left of it). If I say I am Indian, I can only be talking about my ethnic origin, since I am not a citizen of the Republic of India. That's why I keep saying that one's ethnicity has nothing to do with one's nationality. Rui Collaço Lisbon From: "Gilbert Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]RE: Nationality anim Ethnicity Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 09:43:19 -0400 "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: How can a Goan not be an Indian national? Response: Being Goan defines one's Ethnic Heritage. Being Indian, Portuguese, American, British etc. defines one's Nationality. Regards, Gilbert ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]DNA testing????
Thank you Mr. Helekar, I have learnt a most interesting thing from you. Does that mean that if you sample my DNA and that of a white Portuguese, you can determine my Indian ethnic origin? I admit I didn't have a clue about this aspect of DNA profiling. What caused my comment was not the DNA issue. It was your remarks about the claims to "western european origin" of some Goans. But you conveniently chose to ignore it, and gave no answer. I hope you will at least understand that when someone claims to be Portuguese, you cannot assume the person to be claiming to be white or of native european stock. Rui Collaço Lisbon From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]DNA testing Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 20:36:11 - "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Some people seem to be getting completely out of their minds. > Mr. Collaco: I have not attacked you personally. So I would appreciate it if you would refrain from attacking me. I have no interest in your India/Portugal discussion. My post on the genetic issue was to clarify my point that people of Goan origin are predominantly of Indian origin. If you want to dispute that, I would be happy to debate it with you. I only ask you to keep this discussion civil, and not attack my mental status, intelligence, level of ignorance or Indianness. I promise not to attack you. > >Since when is DNA testing the way to determine one's ethnicity? > Since the 1960's! Drs. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Anthony Edwards and others did pioneering studies in the 60's to establish a new field called Population Genetics. It now uses genomic DNA analysis to establish linkages between ethnic groups. The U.S. government and the governments of many European countries, Japan, India, etc have funded major research studies under the aegis of the Human Genome Diversity Project to study the spread of human diasporas around the globe. > >I don't want to dwell on a scientific matter I am not familiar with, >but would welcome any scientific contribution on this issue. > If you are interested, I can provide you with the names of several very interesting popular books on the subject. > >It is the second time on Goanet someone suggests DNA testing to >determine whether one is Indian or not! > It was right the first time, and it is right now. Cheers, Santosh ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies...
Mr. "Gilbert", I have tried to explain how Angola and Mozambique managed to destroy their economies and descend to the lowest ranks in the world. But that was after 1975 and independence. You are talking about their situation at present. You can't take facts for facts, it's your problem. I know that truth hurts sometimes, but is still the truth. Analyse 1975 and before, if you care. Do I need to give you the example of Argentina, a poor country today, and the 8th richest country in the world in 1945? Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "gilbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies... Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 09:34:57 - --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I assure you that both > Mozambique and Angola were, at the time they attained independence in 1975, > among the most developed countries of Africa, far better than most of their > independent neighbours, and by far better administered. Angola's growth rate > was about 9% p.a. (something India has never managed). Any honest scholar > that may dwell on this will reach this conclusion. In any case, these facts > are well documented. The standard of living and infrastructure were second > to none among the countries of black Africa. Only Rodhesia and South Africa > were better off. Angola among the most developed countries of Africa in 1975? Do you include literacy and other social indicators under development? Do you include the setting up of local Institutions like the Executive and Judiciary as development? Have you made a comparison of Angola and Mozambique with ex British colonies like Kenya, Ghana and Nigeria in 1975? In 2003 the literacy rate of Mozambique and Angola was 45 and 42%. The ranking in the HDR is 170 and 164 out of 179 of the worlds nations. And please dont blame this situation on strife alone, after independence. One thing I will say, and that is, Goa was left in a heavenly state in 1961, if you compare it with the state of Angola in 1975, and today. I spent some time in Congo in 2001, and I thought that no country in the world could be poorer, and less educated than that country. Was surprised to see that the portuguese colonies rank lower. regards, Gilbert. ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies...
Mr. Bhatcar, I did not mean to be arrogant in my answer but I accept I may have exaggerated in the tone. For that I apologise to you. Yes, in my opinion Portugal did give Goa preferential treatment, it was the real jewel in the crown, but not in a material sense. Portugal made Goans equal with the "mainland" Portuguese, something granted to nobody else in the empire. You can find ample evidence of that in Portugal and its former empire, from a very long time back. Last but not the least, Goa is the best place on earth for my mother too (she was born there). I fully respect that. Rui Manuel Collaço From: "Nagesh Bhatcar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies... Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:09:26 + Dear Mr.Rui Manuel Collaço, Thanks for your passionate response about your Mozambique! However, don't simply assume things like 'Mr. Bhatcar, you really do not seem to have much knowledge of the world outside your little Goa.'. You know as little about me, as I know about your background. A humble and straightforward reply to any question or query is more in order rather than an arrogant one. I am not a person that has tried in anyway to slam Portugal for its colonization. Portugal's colonization of Goa is good only for the History books now. My sole intent was to find out whether Portugal did indeed give Goa any preferential treatment compared to its other colonies. Yes, to me Goa is the best place on earth! Nagesh Bhatcar [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mr. Bhatcar, you really do not seem to have much knowledge of the world outside your little Goa. But you should not talk about what <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>). By the present state of affairs in those countries you cannot judge how they were in the past! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon _ Use custom emotions -- try MSN Messenger 6.0! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_emoticon ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Beating a Dead Horse!
I totally agree with you on this point. But if you care to analyse how the debates begin, you will find a trend: the "Portuguese camp" (I call it this way on ly for convenience's sake), or rather, most people in this camp only react to jaundiced anti-portuguese diatribes that are a common feature on this net. I don's see prejudice on this side, only a growing saturation with falsehoods stated by known Portugal-bashers, who are the ones really full of prejudice. Of course there are some "compagnons de route" who attack India sistematically, but you should not take the tree for the forest. I am not aware of comparisons between East and West or Christianity vs Hinduism. That is futile and leads nowhere. But I have seen a Catholic downgrading himself and his fellow Catholics. I believe religion belongs to the private sphere of an individual. It is a pity most Indians don't think this way. Just too many of them seem ready to fight religious wars, instead of fighting their grinding poverty. Of course colonialism is a bad thing, and no one in his right mind is defending it. Almost as bad is Indian expansionism and imperialism (bullying neighbours like Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka, maintaining the illegal occupation of Kashmir with great use of violence, strong-arm tactics in absorbing Sikkim into the Union or the very invasion and annexation of Goa without ever consulting its people). Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Beating a Dead Horse! Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 19:56:42 - As I have said many times before, honest and sincere criticism is a good thing, as long as basic decency is maintained. Even flogging a dead horse is good, once in a while, if it helps us vent our feelings. The trouble is that one often gets the feeling that at the root of most pro-Portugal/anti-Portugal and pro-India/anti-India debates there exist those bad old prejudices, namely that Western people are better than Indians or vice versa, Christianity is better than Hinduism or vice versa, Goans are better than people of other Indian states, etc. I hope at the very least all debaters of the issue in question agree that forceful colonialization of the people of another land was and still is a bad thing. Cheers, Santosh ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
RE: [Goanet]RE: MACAU VS HONG KONG
Brilliant, Paulo! You've rendered a great service to the truth, as in all your earlier posts. It's amazing how some people venture so self-confidently into unknown territory. They probably assume everyone else is more ignorant than they are! Just a few more facts on this issue. In 1979, Portuguese President Gen. Ramalho Eanes, on an official visit to China, again expressed Portugal's willingness to return Macau to China (this was not official at the time, but an open secret). China refused, on the grounds that Hong-Kong had to go first, and that Macau was not a colony. It must be remembered that, unlike Hong-Kong, Macau was not occupied by force and had no "lease" on it. The territory was granted to the Portuguese in perpetuity by a Chinese ruler, out of gratitude to the Portuguese for having rid the China sea of pirates that used to attack and rob Chinese vessels. During the early stages of the negotiations for the transfer of Hong-Kong, the British Government, with Margaret Tatcher as PM, insisted that China should negotiate with Portugal the transfer of Macau for the same time or before the tranfer of HK. The British were mad at the prospect of being kicked out of HK and Macau remaining in Portuguese hands. This was firmly rejected by China, of course. It was typical of the British, with their imperial arrogance. This way, Portugal had the honour of being the last of the former imperial powers to leave China, a full two years after the UK. And this was achieved always on good terms with the Chinese leadership, and without Portugal ever asking for it. It speaks volumes for the traditional Chinese wisdom, which sets China in a class of its own, unlike some of its neighbours. Does anyone know what is meant by "...the British had acceded Hong Kong first..."? I suppose the author wanted to say "ceded". Quite a difference between both. Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [Goanet]RE: COLACO Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:31:50 +0100 >-Original Message- >From: Gabe Menezes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: quarta-feira, 3 de Setembro de 2003 20:16 >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: [Goanet]RE: COLACO > > >The British had acceded Hong >Kong first, you are being pedantic to even imagine that the Portuguese >could >have and would have held on to Macau. Your post assumes too much without factual validity. Why are you convinced that the Portuguese wanted to hold on to Macau?? The facts (if you care to learn) are the following: In 1966, rioting flares all over China. Mao started his great proletarian "cultural revolution" to regain control of the country. The chaos in China spills over into Macau as Red guards plaster the Portuguese territory with violent demonstrations. Portuguese troops fire on rampaging Red guards. Macau's governor, Brigadier Nobre de Carvalho, negotiates from the position of weakness because Portugal cannot come to aid and Macau tiny police force and garrison is helpless. In 1967 Brigadier Nobre de Carvalho suggests that Portugal should return Macau back to China. It was too much pressure for Portugal to keep peace in the territory. Peking, however, declines the offer and pulls back its Red Guards. China claimed it was not prepared to take Macau back. In 1974, following the democratic revolution in Portugal, Macau is again offered back to China. But China declined the offer again claiming it wants to recover Hong Kong first. Portugal decides to rename the province's status to a Chinese territory under Portuguese Administration. And this is the main difference between the British and the Portuguese. While Hong Kong was a British colony till the end and the British probably left very much against their will, Macau was in fact recognized as a Chinese Territory under Portuguese Administration, and, in fact, offered back to China at least twice before the Sino-Portuguese declaration of 13 April 1987 (namely 1966/1967 and 1974/1975). The hand-over of Macau to China was indeed an excellent transition process, achieved smoothly and in an extremely organized manner, which left the Portuguese proud of it. Unfortunately, the most recent articles I have been reading are pointing out for violations of the Sino-Portuguese agreement of 1987, with regards to the increased tax payments that are now being imposed to the working people of Macau, which are leaving them in a much worse financial situation they had before ( violating the Sino-Portuguese agreement of 1987). Another important difference, Macau born people before 1987 are and will always be full Portuguese citizens (with full citizenship rights in the European Community) - just like the Goans born before 1961 - while the Hong Kong citizens were removed from their British overseas citizenship (which have never granted them any European Citizenship rights anyway...). Best regards, Paulo Colaco Dias. #
Re: [Goanet]DNA testing????
Some people seem to be getting completely out of their minds. Has anyone ever claimed on Goanet to be of "modern western european origin" (sic)? Can anyone pinpoint who and when? When I claim to be a Portuguese citizen of Goan origin, which I have done more than once, do you conclude that I am claiming to be of "white" european stock??? Which "beliefs about their origins" do you have in mind Mr. Helekar? Don't you realise that being Portuguese, British, French, European, has nothing to do with one's ethnicity? Modern Europeans have all kinds of ethnic origins: in addition to the native whites, there are people of African, Asian, Arab, South American origin. Being European is being the citizen of a European state, having its nationality. Is this so difficult to grasp? We are in the third millenium, gentlemen. Even in an absolutely ethnocentric country like India, people should begin to understand that one need not be white to be Portuguese or European! Senseless talk of the kind seen below belongs to the 19th century frame of mind! Since when is DNA testing the way to determine one's ethnicity? I don't want to dwell on a scientific matter I am not familiar with, but would welcome any scientific contribution on this issue. It is the second time on Goanet someone suggests DNA testing to determine whether one is Indian or not! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Teotonio de Souza for Goa meet. Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:21:53 - --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - How can a Goan not be an Indian national? > A Goan need not be an Indian national. But a person of Goan origin is with very few exceptions a person of Indian origin. A colleague of mine is conducting a massive molecular genetic study on all ethnic groups in India, including Goa. We would love to have samples of blood from Goans who believe they are entirely of modern Western European origin. We can compare their genomic DNA with that of the other communities in India, and determine whether their beliefs about their origins are right or wrong. Cheers, Santosh ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ MSN Messenger: converse com os seus amigos online. http://messenger.msn.com.br ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Colonial Fervor or Reality Check for Goa.
Could I know the source of the info on the percentage of Portuguese speakers? 10% seems too high to me. I would also like to know, if possible, how this figure is calculated. Thank you, Rui Collaço Lisbon From: Miguel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Colonial Fervor or Reality Check for Goa. Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:58:21 +0530 Dear Liladhar, Portuguese is taught in schools,higher secondaries and colleges.About 10% of Goans can either speak or understand Portuguese. Those who learn Portuguese in school,do not necessarily learn to speak.Those who speak at home need not necessarily be able to read and write. It is not mutually exclusive,either. _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
You are an expert at inventing futile issues, but this time I shall clarify
your ackward perplexity. My name is Rui Manuel Miranda Collaço, and
obviously you were in no doubt about it. I enjoy confusing some susceptible
minds.
Long names are not a Portuguese tradition, they are a Goan one. Most
Portuguese people I know have short names. Of course some surnames can be
long, but you can't change them. Please find better issues for your daily
Portugal-bashing feature.
It is funny to quote Disraeli when statistics are of no use to you! Of
course you can't question them in a serious way. When I read your postings,
I think that some of your ideas belong to the time B. Disraeli lived. For
instance, I can see, reading the post below, that you have a serious problem
with the colour of your skin. I presume you are very brown and you don't
like it, and you have an inferiority complex. Above all, you can't figure
out how people of your colour can live in countries like Portugal, where the
majority is white. But I cannot explain properly to you how easy it is to
live in this country as a brown or even a black. For me it's a non-issue,
and also for the majority of my countryman. Only if you come here and see
for yourself you may rid your mind of the cobwebs that fill it. Meanwhile
you may continue with your sarcasms about skin colour - you only cover
yourself with ridicule.
I know you are very upset at having some people standing up at some
utterances on Goanet, and actually setting the record straight. I believe
it's a free forum, that's the marvel of internet. Why can't you
democratically accept other people´s views? It would appear that you
inherited Salazar's traits. You want to shut me out of Goanet, but I have no
intention of following your suggestion. I shall send postings to Goanet
whenever I feel like, or better still, whenever people like you give me a
good reason to. as for the euros, bad luck, no euros left for you. Your
elected Government makes sure no Portuguese euros reach Goa. They are going
to East Timor instead, lots of them. The East Timorese welcome them, and do
their thanking in Portuguese.
Rui Collaço
Lisbon
From: Miguel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:19:12 +0530
I know that "Gilbert" on the net is Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Is the "Rui
*Miranda* Collaco" on [EMAIL PROTECTED] the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on [EMAIL PROTECTED] who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to
use--or
are there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?
As for the statistics,I will only quote Benjamin Disraeli{then PM of UK}:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies,damned lies and statistics"
Nothing different in India or Portugal.Even in UK ,they recently 'sexed up'
data on Iraq!All is fair in love and war.So what if Dr.Kelly died
'mysteriously' for stating the truth?
We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of
futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own
net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel
- Original Message -
From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
> Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.
But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language
> to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
>
>* Rui Miranda Collaço*
>
> Lisbon
If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960and again in 2000, and saw the all
round improvement of all socialparameters, I can assure you that we would
not be having this debatein the first place.
regards,
Gilbert--and thats my name.
> >
> >
> >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
Re: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies...
Mr. Bhatcar, you really do not seem to have much knowledge of the world outside your little Goa. But you should not talk about what you ignore. I was born and lived in Mozambique up to 1977. I assure you that both Mozambique and Angola were, at the time they attained independence in 1975, among the most developed countries of Africa, far better than most of their independent neighbours, and by far better administered. Angola's growth rate was about 9% p.a. (something India has never managed). Any honest scholar that may dwell on this will reach this conclusion. In any case, these facts are well documented. The standard of living and infrastructure were second to none among the countries of black Africa. Only Rodhesia and South Africa were better off. What happened after independence cannot be blamed on Portugal. Marxist regimes, helped by the Soviet Union and Cuba, brought in civil war and disastrous socialist experiments. The economies were all but destroyed. Even today Mozambique is far from reaching the level where it was in 1975. Angola's civil war was a consequence of the cold war. Corruption and African-style appropriation of Govt. funds explain the rest. Some Goan marxists, like Aquino de Bragança in Mozambique, served these regimes, contributing to the disastrous mess into which they became. Goa, by comparison, was a backwater (and still is). When I first visited Bombay and Goa, in 1978, I could hardly believe in what my eyes saw. Goa and the rest of India were the real thirld world, compared to Mozambique. Having been born in Beira, Mozambique's second largest city, Goa appeared to me as an appaling place (except for its natural beauty). By the present state of affairs in those countries you cannot judge how they were in the past! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Nagesh Bhatcar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet]Goa v/s Other Portuguese colonies... Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:19:53 + Of late I have seen many rancourous exchanges on how good Portugal is. Goa's colonization by Portugal is now a matter for the History books and cannot be changed. I was just wondering whether or not Portugal really did a whole lot for all of its colonies. I had read that Angola and Mozambique were resourcefully richer than Goa. Except for Goa and Macau, most other major Portuguese colonies have hardly progressed. Perhaps Goa and Macau were the only two, that progressed as they had fairly advanced civilizations that were older than the occupying power itself. Some history buff can perhaps dwell into this issue. Nagesh Bhatcar [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Portugal's shame????
Portugal's shame? You could'nt have been more unfortunate in your choice of a title for your posting. I read the paper, which is fascinating, and indeed says it all, but not in the way you suggest. I suppose you didn't read it, I am almost sure of it. If you did read it, then one has to conclude that you did'nt understand a single line of the paper. In your unquenchable thirst for Portugal-bashing, your favourite pastime (perhaps your main activity), you read half a dozen lines and sent the site, presuming the author was another rabid lusophobe like you. Well, he's not. He is the first Australian that I heard about, having a good knowledge of East Timor. To Australia's shame (not Portugal's) he exposed the complete ignorance of his countrymen about their next-door neighbour, and defended the East Timorese leadership's option for Portuguese as their country's official language. He also denounces Australia's brand of lusophobia, and its meddling in Timor's internal affairs. We in Portugal know only too well that Australia has and still is waging a real war on Portuguese language and influence in East Timor. They know that a Portuguese-speaking Timor will be difficult to turn into a satellite country. The proud and wiseTimorese know of their giant neighbour's intentions and won't have any of it. Quite to the contrary, Portugal can only be proud of what it accomplished in East Timor. Look at the world map, Mr. Menezes, and then look at Portugal and at East Timor, see the distance that separates the two. Isn't it reason enough to be proud that the first nation of the third millenium, half way across the globe, has chosen Portuguese as its official language and is seeking closer ties with Portugal? Are you capable of understanding the true dimension of this fact, in spite of your lusophobia? When an entire people stand up and fight for 24 years against their "liberators", and prefer their former colonisers, is that reason to be ashamed or proud? You are a confused being. You are part of that breed of people that invariably pick up the "fait divers" (this is French language) but miss the essential, thus losing credibility. The paper was written in early 2000. A lot has taken place since then. Portugal has been doing its share. Close to 200 Portuguese language teachers were sent to East Timor by our Government, in addition to 1000 military and police personnel (the latter at the service of the UN), plus many other civil servants and experts. Private institutions are also helping. Cooperation with East Timor is worth close to 100 million a year (400 crore rupees). It is a huge sum for a small country like Portugal, but it is the only item of expenditure on which there is no cap, such is the importance of East Timor as a foreign policy priority. Timor certainly deserves every eurocent that it gets from Portugal! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Gabe Menezes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Portugal's shame. Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:24:30 +0100 Kindly long on to the site below, which says it all http://www.ocs.mq.edu.au/~leccles/speech1.html Best regards, Gabe Menezes ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ MSN Hotmail, o maior webmail do Brasil. http://www.hotmail.com ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Teotonio de Souza for Goa meet.
Teotónio de Souza is "of Goan origin"? Or is he "Goan"? I am confused, but the "Times of India", or rather, its source, should know better... I expect to see pigs flying one of these days! From: "renebarreto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Teotonio de Souza for Goa meet. Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:12:03 -0700 WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 2003 THE TIMES OF INDIA Indo-Portuguese historians to meet in Goa IANS[ WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 03, 2003 "This was when official relations between Portugal and India were taking time to reach normalcy, despite the move of then Portuguese foreign minister (later president) Mario Soares, to recognise Goa's integration into India," says prominent Indo-Portuguese historian Teotonio de Souza, who is of Goan origin and is based in Lisbon. _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Healthy body defecates!
When they run out of valid arguments, some people resort to texts like this, which certainly demonstrates intellectual and linguistic prowess! Not a word on Goan democracy, which for them must be perfect, I am led to presume. Instead, scandals come up, which are a feature of every society, democratic or not. I did not mention scandals a single time. I am not worried about scandals. Some scandals, namely the sexual ones (like the one at the Oval Office) are actually completely harmless to society, as long as politicians are honest and competent at doing what they were elected for. Far more worrisome is the subversion and corruption of the political process, which could lead to a mockery of democracy. When someone considers "defections" the mark of a healthy body, there's definitely cause for concern! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "TRS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'Goanet'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Healthy body defecates! Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:42:01 +0100 Perhaps it is time we leave Goa / India and Portugal out of the fray and examine in this forum where the liberal democracy is without its share of scandals (except where media, not the politicians, run the democracies). As far as "defecation" is concerned, I remember an old psychiatrist friend telling me: "Healthy body should defecate / eliminate"! Democratic progress of some countries consists in their powerful media turning defecation into "evening in Paris"! While others who retain their environmental flavours have to bear the accusations of non-functional democracies. From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Soglleanche randni kodde tench bannxirem! Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:17:27 +0100 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, I do not forget that Goa "entered the age of democracy" before Portugal. God forbid, it would be a mortal sin to forget such a major event of world, rectius, universal history. Besides, how could one forget such a recurrent boast made on Goanet? I am only too aware of it. I am also aware that Goa has come a long way since entering that golden age. It has perfected its democracy to such levels that known criminals get elected to the highest offices of the land. Members of the Legislative Assembly change parties the moment they are promised a seat in the next Govt., thus toppling the Govt. they were supposed to support! It is called defection, that unique feature of Indian democracy (political version of defecation). Governments last only a few months, on average. Politicians invariably leave office far richer materially than they were when they took office. So advanced is Goa's democracy that one could describe it by its equivalent names (used only for advanced forms, democracy being the designation for its simple and basic form like the one praticed in Portugal) : mobocracy, moneycracy, plutocracy, goondacracy, etc. ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where. Which carries more weight for you as a source of information: an article on "Goa Today" or the Economic Survey attached to the Union Budget, which is an official Government document? For me the choice is obvious, which means that Goa's infant mortality rate in 2001 was 36 per thousand. I am not jumping with joy, not for so little. I only mentioned Portugal's figures as an example of how in 31 years that rate came down from 53 to 5 (less than one tenth), whereas in Goa, the rate was reduced, in 40 years, from 57 to 36, not even half the rate of 1961. And you were boasting about this. You could perhaps come up with some other indicators but this one should not make you proud. Even the former Pol Pot regime could manage that or better in 40 years! You and other people on Goanet seem to think that the rest of the world stopped in its tracks while Goa "marched ahead" after 1961. The "all round improvement in social parameters" applies to the entire world, it's not Goa's exclusive achievement. I can sense your irritation whenever Portugal is mentioned on this net, but I find it very useful, for the benefit of those who take interest in these matters, to supply some statistical data, to counter inaccuracies which are taken for facts, if left unchecked. What I said about the neocolonialists from New Delhi was not a "wild allegation". It was said in response to a reply by Teotonio de Souza to a posting of mine, in which he considered that Portugal's granting of citizenship to Goans was a compensation for its "use and abuse of colonial territory and people for 450 years". I did not say that the neocolonialists had ruined Goa since 1961. That's what you claim that I said, which makes me think that you have a reading and comprehension problem, because you keep distorting the contents of my postings. By the way, why do you keep writing "neocolonists"? Is that Indian English or you coined a new word? I'll stick to "neocolonialists". But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese. Rui Miranda Collaço Lisbon From: "gilbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:20:38 - In spite of your sarcasm, and allusions to misinformation, I am not in the business of manufacturing stats. They were taken from an article by Dr. VA Pai Panandikar in Goa Today, Aug 2003. He was the former President of the Centre of Policy Research, New Delhi. You may like to read the article and get a little more educated about Goa. BTW, since you are jumping with joy that Portugal has now overtaken the UK in reducing infant mortality by one less baby dead, why dont you provide all the other HDR figures which place the UK way ahead of Portugal in the same report. The aim of the debate was not to compare countrys indicators, but to rebut your wild and insubstantiated allegation that *neocolonists* had ruined Goa since 1961. If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960 and again in 2000, and saw the all round improvement of all social parameters, I can assure you that we would not be having this debate in the first place. regards, Gilbert--and thats my name. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on Goanet. That's > my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by "Gilbert" (why > don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to me, for a > third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you check the > Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical Table/Human > Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate > (http://indiabudget.nic.in), you get the following figures: > > Infant mortality rate > > 19612001 > > India 11571 > Goa 5736 > > This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources of > information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per 1000 live > births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later) it was 36, > still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate of 40 > years before. What an achievement to boast about! > Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is now 11! He > should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There are no > miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Br
Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on Goanet. That's my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by "Gilbert" (why don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to me, for a third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you check the Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical Table/Human Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate (http://indiabudget.nic.in), you get the following figures: Infant mortality rate 19612001 India 11571 Goa 5736 This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources of information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per 1000 live births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later) it was 36, still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate of 40 years before. What an achievement to boast about! Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is now 11! He should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There are no miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei buying up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down from 36 to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that Indian statistics are a free-for-all? This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by negligence. One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5. The U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-2003. Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "gilbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour? Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 - --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tariq Siddiqui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Rui Collaco wrote: > > > Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the neocolonial rulers > > from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in these 42 > > years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule! > > How would you justify such a statement? > > Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have > researched or is this a personal opinion based on your circumstances and > prejudices. > > > -- > Tariq Siddiqui - Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate 33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a Latin flavour like Italy and Spain. regards, Gilbert. ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good. But one must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably better than those of India. In fact, it is because Goa already had a headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small wonder that today it is the state with the best indicators in India (on the whole). Irrespective of who is in power, some social indicators have been improving continuously all over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn countries). It isn't a case of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The infant mortality rate was quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is lower than that of the UK! You claim that there's a lot more to see, eat and drink in other european countries...like Italy and Spain. Here's another brilliant example of how hollow some remarks made on Goanet can sound. Obviously there's more to see in those countries - Portugal is one fifth the size of Spain and Italy has almost 6 times our population! Could it be otherwise? These are things that you can't change, can you? Now to say that there's more to eat and drink in those countriesthat's puzzling! You refer to quantity, quality? It seems obvious to me that you've never been in Portugal. If you did, you did not eat in any quality restaurant here. Our gastronomy is amazing, our wines are excellent, this is precisely what tourists keep praising about Portugal. By comparison, eating in Spain can be very disappointing. In any case, what we eat and drink is a matter of personal taste and choice, and as such subjective! I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did. They could hardly disguise their amazement with Lisbon and the country in general. See the difference between what I said and what you claim that I said? It's the difference between being rigorous or careless quoting others! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "gilbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour? Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 - --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tariq Siddiqui <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Rui Collaco wrote: > > > Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the neocolonial rulers > > from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in these 42 > > years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule! > > How would you justify such a statement? > > Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have > researched or is this a personal opinion based on your circumstances and > prejudices. > > > -- > Tariq Siddiqui - Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate 33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a Latin flavour like Italy and Spain. regards, Gilbert. ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ MSN Messenger: converse com os seus amigos online. http://messenger.msn.com.br ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Re: Soglleanche randni kodde tench bannxirem!
No, I do not forget that Goa "entered the age of democracy" before Portugal. God forbid, it would be a mortal sin to forget such a major event of world, rectius, universal history. Besides, how could one forget such a recurrent boast made on Goanet? I am only too aware of it. I am also aware that Goa has come a long way since entering that golden age. It has perfected its democracy to such levels that known criminals get elected to the highest offices of the land. Members of the Legislative Assembly change parties the moment they are promised a seat in the next Govt., thus toppling the Govt. they were supposed to support! It is called defection, that unique feature of Indian democracy (political version of defecation). Governments last only a few months, on average. Politicians invariably leave office far richer materially than they were when they took office. So advanced is Goa's democracy that one could describe it by its equivalent names (used only for advanced forms, democracy being the designation for its simple and basic form like the one praticed in Portugal) : mobocracy, moneycracy, plutocracy, goondacracy, etc. I have to humbly acknowlege that Portugal has a long, long way to go to catch up to Goa's amazingly high level of development of its democracy. And, alas, as much as I try, I don't see things heading in the direction they took in Goa. It is a case-study of an ex-colony ouperforming the former colonial ruler!!! By comparison, Portugal's democracy has achieved little: this year we are 23rd in the Human Development Index Rank of the United Nations (Human Development Report-2003), banded with the most developed countries of the world in the High Human Development bracket. But that's nothing compared to the fact that Goa entered democracy before us. I have to learn to live with that. I wish to assure you that I do not waste any energy to help the future of Goans and their identity, for twol reasons: - I am not a Goan, I am a Portuguese citizen (since birth) of Goan origin (and proud of it); - The identity of Goans (specially that of the catholics), the "distinct identity" that J. Nehru spoke about, is all but vanished already. I never heard about the "alma portuguesa...". I know a different version: " A minha Pátria é a língua Portuguesa", which was said by the great poet Fernando Pessoa, who wrote in Portuguese and in English, and means "My Fatherland is the Portuguese language". Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "TRS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'Goanet'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Re: Soglleanche randni kodde tench bannxirem! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:42:17 +0100 From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Soglleanche randni kodde tench bannxirem! Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:10:06 +0100 >I have read the article. So what? What are you trying to prove Mr. Souza? >Can anyone draw conclusions from the fact that an anonymous citizen makes >some criticism regarding the conservation .Anyone interested can check on the very interesting work carried out by Portuguese institutions in the restoration of the Fort >of São João Baptista de Ajudá (west coast of Africa) and on the Portuguese >fortifications in Morocco. These are just 2 examples, there's a lot more. . The writer of the article has a name, and as such is not *anonymous* (if I understand the dictionary meaning right). She is a researcher on themes relating to conservation. Perhaps, what Mr.Rui Colaço meant to say is *insignificant* or *selective informer* ! One wishes Mr.Rui Colaço did a better job than renting and fuming on Goanet! Could give us more comprehensive picture (and be less selective himself )by disclosing who had destroyed the Fort of Ajudá in the first place! And to stop being selective it is not enough to say theres a lot more. >*apparently* hate so intensely, betraying yourself, your ideals and your >fellow Portugal-haters. .. Criticism, even when crude or hard, is translated as *bashing* or *hate*, Mr. Rui Colaço is perhaps still suffering from the hangover of the Salazar regime and its half a century of culture of censorship! Fortunately, the Portuguese, sepcially the younger generation, are getting over it. Mr. Rui Colaço should not forget that Goa entered the age of democracy at least a decade of years before 25 of April of 1974! Perhaps Goanet will have to see more renting and fuming following this reminder! >I couldn't understand your Konkani proverb and I do not intend to take and Konkani classes. What a pity to hear this from someone who wastes so much energy to help the future of Goans (and their identity)! The Portuguese believe ardently that *Alma portuguesa é a lingua portuguesa* [
Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
If this broadside was directed at me, it failed miserably! I was born in Portuguese-held territory, my parents are (and were at the time) Portuguese nationals. I have always been a Portuguese national, I did not have to apply for nationality or beg anything, it was my birthright. I did not have to ask for papers to be able to move to Portugal. When Mozambique became independent, all we had to do was to declare that we wanted to remain Portuguese citizens. My parents bought the airfares and we landed in Lisbon as nationals of this country. So what's this crap about "...ex-colonial blessing that allowed them to live in Portugal..."? I wish I could understand it. For me it wasn't surely a colonial favour, it was a right. There's a difference between the two. Having said that, I would add that acquiring Portuguese citizenship is certainly a privilege nowadays, and one that is all too often given to undeserving people, like "freedom fighters" and Portugal-bashers from Goa. These spineless people have no shame in becoming Portuguese and coming to live in Portugal, after spending more than 30 years singing the praises of the "liberation" of Goa, while pathetically attacking Portugal and blaming it for all the local evils. I fail to understand how this could happen, but opportunism, lack of character and of convictions go a long way in explaining. At the same time, hundreds of thousands of candidates in our former African colonies wait for the same opportunity, with very little chance of ever becoming Portuguese. "Partial repayment of debt of justice after use and abuse of colonial territory and population during 450 years?" Please don't be ridiculous. Is Portugal supposed to be paying compensation for its presence in Goa? And that is in the form of granting Portuguese nationality to a chosen few? Am I to believe now that those who have come this way made the "sacrifice" of accepting our nationality so as to compensate Goa for the years of colonial rule? It´s hilarious. By that logic, how much should the U.K. give to India as damages for its colonisation? Or is Portugal the only country with a "debt of justice"? Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the neocolonial rulers from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in these 42 years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "TRS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Goanet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour? Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:15:30 +0100 Time and again the goanet forum sees some postings, particularly from some Goans settled in Portugal or from a generation born in Portugal, in a kind of acknowledgement of their servility and subservience to ex-colonial blessing that allowed them to live in Portugal as its citizens. One wonders if the concession of Portuguese nationality is to be seen as a colonial favour! Or is it only a partial repayment of debt of justice after use and abuse of colonial territory and population during 450 years? ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Re:Conservation of Portuguese Heritage
Mr. Souza, you missed the point I was trying to make. Yes, it is true that in your precious little newspaper article a perfectly unknown (not anonymous, of course) citizen makes some criticism. So what, once again? It's a free country, there are more than 10 million of us, each with an opinion. You are a Portuguese now, haven't you realized that the Portuguese are world champions at criticising themselves and their country? But the question remains: Is it legitimate to pick an obscure newspaper article written by someone that nobody knows, and draw any kind of conclusion from it regarding the state of our heritage and conservation efforts? Of course there are problems with some monuments and heritage sites. But on the whole, we have a proven record in that area, and considerable capacity to help other countries in this field. What we are doing around the world is a testimony to that. You can continue to mislead Goanetters with your petty "fait-divers", aimed at throwing mud at Portugal (your own country, by the way, who would believe that!!!), but one thing is certain: the moment any of your readers sets foot in Portugal all those efforts at brainwashing them will be rendered useless. I have witnessed several times the real "shock and awe" that Goans arriving here for the first time feel. Nothing that they see in Lisbon and in the rest of the country seems to match the picture of Portugal and its people that they were fed upon by some local (and now global) manipulators. It is a dramatic moment of truth. I just wish a lot more Goans (and by that I mean those in Goa) would be able to come here and see for themselves. Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Re:Conservation of Portuguese Heritage Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:16:12 +0100 (Horário de verão de Greenwich) My reference to the article in Lisbon daily of 24 Aug. would be relevant, despite Rui Colaço considering it a selective reading. Full picture may emerge from many fragments. All that we post or produce can only be fagmentary and a selection based on one's own criteria, or "agenda" as Rui Colaço likes to call it. It is obvious that he has his! No one can provide full picture of anything. Even the so-called *objectivity of history* is a myth. Real objective history could result (if it will ever result) from the subjective expriences / narratives of every single individual. For those who could not access the link, follows the text. I shall translate the last paragraph: «This researcher comes to the conclusion that our history has seen all along a lack of organization and planning. Her criticism is: "We have a quaint sensibility regarding the heritage. In reality, there is no single policy of conservation and restoration of monuments. If there are restoration projects, there is no concern for archeological excavations. The trend is to capture fast and mass tourism."» -- Jangadas de pedra à deriva by Silvia Costa, Cascais [not anonymous as claimed by Rui Colaço] Fortificar e restaurar à pressa, face ao iminente ataque do inimigo, foi uma das características da incipiente organização militar do reino, nos séculos XV e XVI. Seiscentos anos depois, já não se constroem torres, fortes nem fortalezas, pelo contrário, deixam-se ruir. Pontualmente, algum deste património é restaurado, mas com o fim de retirar dele o máximo proveito económico. As fortificações hoje conservadas pertencem ao Exército e à Marinha, suportam faróis ou centros de instrução. Outras transformaram-se em hotéis, restaurantes, palacetes, discotecas, como o Forte Velho, em S. João do Estoril, ou em colónias de férias, como os fortes de Santo António do Estoril e de Catalazete. Na Linha de Cascais, que somou no passado 36 fortificações entre fortes, fortalezas e baterias, foram restaurados para fins museológicos apenas o Forte de Oitavos, em Cascais, e de S. Bruno, em Oeiras. A grande maioria destas construções, uma vez desactivada, foi incorporada no Ministério da Fazenda Pública e, no século XIX, posta em hasta pública. Na posse de particulares, «acabaram por servir de base à construção de restaurantes e hotéis. No Guincho foram arrasadas, em 1959 e 1964, as baterias da Galé e Alta, que deram origem ao Muchaxo e ao Hotel do Guincho, que, apesar de parecer um forte, nada conservou da arquitectura militar original», refere a investigadora Margarida Ramalho. «Outras foram transformadas em casas apalaçadas: Casa Seixas (sede da Capitania de Cascais), casa da Duquesa de Palmela (Monte Estoril), Casa de S. Roque, Chalet Barros (Estoril), Hospital Ortopédico José de Almeida, que nasceu em cima do Forte de S. Domingos de Rana». «A maior parte destas fortificações foi mais dissuasora que defensiva. Ou tinham homens e não tinham pólvora, ou tinham pólvora e não tinham homens, ou tinham pólvora e homens e tinham os canhões estragados», diz, explicando: «E
Re: [Goanet]Soglleanche randni kodde tench bannxirem!
I have read the article. So what? What are you trying to prove Mr. Souza? Can anyone draw conclusions from the fact that an anonymous citizen makes some criticism regarding the conservation of some obscure fortification in one particular point of the Portuguese coast? What about the larger picture? You wouldn't want to inform your fellow Goans about the real achievements of Portugal on the conservation front, would you? It would be painful to you, because you specialize in "selective information", which means portraying Portugal in the worst possible light, something you have done with great zeal all your life, even after abandoning your beloved India, acquiring Portuguese nationality and coming to live in this country that you apparently hate so intensely, betraying yourself, your ideals and your fellow Portugal-haters. The truth of the matter is that fantastic work has been done regarding conservation of heritage, in Portugal and around the world, because Portuguese heritage is spread all over and is so vast that it would never be possible, even for the richest nation on earth, to have al of it properly restored. Anyone interested can check on the very interesting work carried out by Portuguese institutions in the restoration of the Fort of São João Baptista de Ajudá (west coast of Africa) and on the Portuguese fortifications in Morocco. These are just 2 examples, there's a lot more. Of course Teotonio de Sousa would not mention this on Goanet. His agenda is of a different nature. As for translating the article, well, I don't work to further your interests Mr. Souza, nor do I work for free. Translate it yourself if you find it that interesting. Too bad fort those who do not speak Portuguese. They can always learn, it's no concern of mine. Please take good note of the fact that this Collaço is not "handling this issue on goanet". I sent a posting, after a long time, much as you do quite often, to which you decided to react. I see with great satisfaction, however, that increasingly some people on goanet are willing to stand up and denounce the inaccuracies that are often fed to goanetters by some people pursuing their own agendas. I couldn't understand your Konkani proverb and I do not intend to take any Konkani classes. Rui Collaço From: "Teotonio R. de Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Soglleanche randni kodde tench bannxirem! Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:14:06 +0100 (Horário de verão de Greenwich) After reading the following on goanet >Some Goans should feel very >glad with that, as well as their Govt., which would rather have >Goa's heritage buildings crumble down in disrepair than have >them restored by a phoren" foundation, and a Portuguese one! Miguel and others on goanet who can still read Portuguese language may be interested in the following link with the latest about the Portuguese achievements in the conservation of its own heritage. For those who are unable to read in Portuguese, the various Colaços handling this issue on goanet could help with a translation. One could quote the Konkani proverb: *Soglleanche randni kodde tench bannxirem* ! Jangadas de pedra à deriva by SÍLVIA COSTA http://www.dn.sapo.pt/noticia/noticia.asp?CodNoticia=117340&codEdicao=796&codAreaNoticia=14 ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Mr. Menezes, reading your pitiable description of catholics in Goa and of yourself I couldn't help feeling very sorry for your. You must be suffering a lot, you are a tormented soul. I dare give you a humble suggestion: Have you considered abandoning this alien faith that the devilish Portuguese imposed on your venerable ancestors and go back to the spiritual confort and earthly trappings of hinduism? I suspect you would find the peace and virtue lost 500 years ago! Speaking for myself, I don't have the courage for such a bold and soul-saving leap so I'll remain a miserable catholic to the end of my days. Middle-class living, booze and speaking Portuguese are all I can look forward to. Bad Karma!! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "Gabe Menezes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour? Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:58:04 +0100 From: "TRS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goanet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 12:15 PM Subject: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour? > Time and again the goanet forum sees some postings, particularly from > some Goans settled in Portugal or from a generation born in Portugal, in > a kind of acknowledgement of their servility and subservience to > ex-colonial blessing that allowed them to live in Portugal as its > citizens. One wonders if the concession of Portuguese nationality is to > be seen as a colonial favour! Or is it only a partial repayment of debt > of justice after use and abuse of colonial territory and population > during 450 years? I think you meant to say partial repayment of debt of 'injustice'... I couldn't agree with you more and you are in a better position than me as your email address shows you are from Portugal. It was a very few favoured that enjoyed the trappings during the Colonial years. The persons involved would talk Portuguese to show themselves as the upper crust of the Goan Society. Everybody else had to Kowtow, to the Portuguese and the Portuguese speaking fraternity. Even today in Goa there are some 'Portuguese' families that envisage themselves as upper class! Speaking Portuguese is no big deal, it is time to move on. On my mother's side we come from a very exclusive (I am led to believe) Family - I used to feel proud, not any more, property was squandered, if only my ancestors had a better handle of things like our Hindu brethern. Many a Christian family would have been so much better off. We enjoyed the short term gain at the expense of the long term! We do not have IMHO neither an equivalent Salgaokar, Dempo Nor Chowgule. Our Christian lot have hit the bottle and carnival. I am surprised that our C.M. is denying our Christian right to drink, be merry and who knows what tomorrow may bring! So what - we may not be rich vis a vis the Hindus, although we were the favoured lot - Who cares - Goa embodies the spirit of the Goan Christians. In turn Goa has remained a secular state because of 450 years of Portugese rule - albeit the inital years were one of the inquisition! Susegad, saudedad. Cheers, Gabe Menezes ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Claims that Fundacao Oriente runs a casino in Macau.
I was obviously referring to the socio-political mindset in Goa, of which this claim that Fundação Oriente runs casinos in Macau (which started this argument) is a good example. I consider every citizen with an opinion as a political being, playing a part in the life of the "Polis", and as such, member of the establishment. I find that the citizenry in Goa have strong opinions on Portugal, but little or no knowledge of our reality. That misinformation does not come from the Goa Govt. because I believe it does not control the media, but it is a well-known fact that the Govt. of Goa spares no efforts to prevent and kill every initiative that leads to greater cooperation with Portugal. The opening of F. Oriente was one such instance, when the Goa Govt. and the "freedom fighters" did their utmost to block their intentions. You are right about the repository of goodwill. Relations with the Union Govt. are and have been very good for a long time. It is the State Govt. that, for some obscure reason that defies any rational explanation, has consistently over the years opposed every Port. initiative. For instance, Portugal had to wait several years for permission to open its consulate in Goa. I guess any other country would have been granted permission in no time (but no other country is interested in opening a consulate in Goa). This goes to say that the establishment is strongly anti-Portuguese and most people wouldn't even know why! With this attitude, the local authorities make sure that Portugal remains "...of no consequence or importance to the 1.2 million people living in Goa". That also allows Gilbert to make this claim with imaginable glee. I am not sure, however, that those lining up outside our consulate in Goa share your opinion. Or those who have moved to this country (I Know many), some of whom were not long ago Portugal-bashing enthusiasts on Goanet! You are also right about the few Goans living in some dark corner of the past, but you got it wrong on their location - they live in Goa and they are very successful at damaging Indo-Portuguese relations, as has been proven over the years. Most of them call themselves "freedom fighters" and they are one of the most powerful political/vested interest lobby in Goa. The amazing thing is that they still call the shots, 42 years later! The Goans in Portugal that you mention, even if there were any to fit your description (there aren't any), they would never have the capacity to influence Govt.policy. Quite frankly, and contrary to the belief of many in Goa, official Portugal couldn't care less about Goa these days. It is just a sentimental matter for those above a certain age. For the younger generations, Goa is no more than a dot on the map of India. Portuguese involvement (at both Govt. and private levels) in projects in the third world is so widespread and sought-after that there's no "goodwill" left towards territories that actively reject it. Some Goans should feel very glad with that, as well as their Govt., which would rather have Goa's heritage buildings crumble down in disrepair than have them restored by a "phoren" foundation, and a Portuguese one! Rui Manuel Collaço Lisbon From: "gilbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet]Claims that Fundacao Oriente runs a casino in Macau. Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 10:13:11 - --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I would like to add just a couple of things on this issue, to complement > what Paulo has already and rightly explained. I also think that ignorance > and misinformation (quite often deliberately) on everything portuguese are > the rule rather than the exception in Goa, unfortunately, because the > establishment wants it that way (please nobody need take this personally). --- What*establishment* are you referring to? Is it Political, social economic? Or is it Government? There frankly is no misinformation floating around about Portugal because that country is of no consequence or importance to the 1.2 mil. people living in Goa at present. If anything, there is a repository of goodwill built up over the past few years between the Governments of India and Portugal, which a few Goans living in some dark corner of the past, in Portugal, are tring to damage--unsucessfully, I may add. regards, Gilbert. ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
Re: [Goanet]Claims that Fundacao Oriente runs a casino in Macau.
I would like to add just a couple of things on this issue, to complement what Paulo has already and rightly explained. I also think that ignorance and misinformation (quite often deliberately) on everything portuguese are the rule rather than the exception in Goa, unfortunately, because the establishment wants it that way (please nobody need take this personally). Fundação Oriente was created as part of a deal negotiated in the eighties and signed in 1986 between the Portuguese administration of Macau and STDM (Sociedade de Turismo e Diversão de Macau), the company that runs Macau´s casinos, in exchange for the renewal of the concession for the monopoly on gambling licenses in the territory, which were held by STDM. At that time STDM was already a rich and powerful company, and the tax revenue generated by the gambling activity in the casinos was so high that it was enough to finance the Administration (to a very high standard, with the citizens paying very litlle or no taxes on income and the Govt. building a state-of-the-art infrastructure in Macau) and start the new foundation. Until the handover in Dec. 1999, Govt. jobs in Macau were handsomely paid and were among the most coveted in Portugal. Thousands went to work in Macau, including many goans (portuguese nationals, of course). STDM is owned by Stanley Ho, a business magnate who once was among the 10 richest man in the world. Born of a chinese father and portuguese mother, he started making his millions during WW II, selling metal scrap which during the war was highly valued. His business empire includes other companies in other territories and countries (He's part owner of Hong-Kong's Cathay Pacific, for example). He also owns Casino Estoril, near Lisbon, considered Europe's largest casino. So STDM had to pay a certain amount of money for several years towards Fundação Oriente's Trust Fund, after which the foundation became finantially self-sufficient, as any well-run foundation is supposed to be. Fundação Oriente draws its annual budget from its Trust Fund, naturally. I do not know the exact figure but that fund amounts to several hundred million euros, making it Portugal's second biggest foundation, after Fundação Calouste Gulbenkian, which is one of the biggest foundations in the world, with a Trust capital of around 2 billion (US $ 2.2 bn). Fundação Oriente spends several million euros every year, in Portugal, China (including Macau), Goa and now in independent East Timor, in line with its mission which is to preserve and foster Portugal's historical links with China and with Asia in general. It could spend more in Goa (it is already doing a great job there), but is not likely to do so, in view of the unwelcoming attitude of the local Govt. towards the foundation and all Portuguese cooperation in general. I personally feel that its money is better spent in East Timor, where all Portuguese support is welcome. Official Port. cooperation with that Portuguese-speaking country is worth close to 100 milion this year (400 crore rupees), making it the largest single recipient of Portuguese aid. Besides, "freedom fighters" in East Timor do not hate the Portuguese (like the Goan ones), they hate their former Indonesian "liberators"! There's nothing like knowing the facts to form an opinion on any issue, and facts are available to everybody, it's just a question of investigating. I hope I have shared some useful info with those interested in the theme. Rui Manuel Miranda Collaço Lisbon om: "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Claims that Fundacao Oriente runs a casino in Macau. Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:56:56 +0100 Hi Miguel, My post was not directed to you but certainly applies to you because you are contributing to spread this rumor without checking the facts. It is the difference between hearing and listening. Reading and checking the facts! I have never read before the statement "Fundacao Oriente runs a casino in Macau". If it really was in the Goan press (when and which?), it is a shame because it is extremely incorrect and offensive for its reputation. If it really was in the press, it wouldn't have been the first time that facts are distorted in the Goan press to please a certain group of people and to increase the sales figures. This is precisely what I was referring to when I mentioned that lack of detail is extremely common in Goa. Lack of detail is extensive to all of us Goans, majority of whom could not care less for details and facts. Yes, you are right. There has been a delegate of the foundation in Goa for a long time. If he did not reply to it, it is probably because he must have thought it wouldn't be worth replying (I am of that opinion most of the time!). Or maybe he replied and it wasn't published. I do not know. But since you have a new delegate, why don't you book an appointment/phone/email a
Re: [Goanet] flogging a very dead and decomposed horse
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com Ms. Helga Gomes, It is a pleasure to read a mail that is serious, honest and factual, something that is rare on goanet. You ask if you make sense. Well, you do, because you put forward your views in a rational way, without getting emotional about it, as happens to many contributors to goanet.I respect other peoples's views, when they are honestly expressed. You mentioned my misconceptions about Indian Goans. Let me explain: 1. Brainwashing After leaving Mozambique (where I was born), in 1977, I lived in Goa for some time, before settling in Portugal. You cannot begin to imagine the amount of provocations, derogatory remarks and plain abuse I had to endure from some of my colleagues at Loyola High School, just because I was a Portuguese national. Remarks about Portugal being a very poor and backward country were commonplace. Some even suggested Portugal was poorer than India, because in their minds, Goa developed after 1961 and Portugal...was left behind Goa and India! If you try and succeed in imagining yourself in my place, what conclusions would you draw? I concluded that such crap, told with conviction by 10th graders who had never been to Portugal, could only be the product of a refined brainwashing effort, carried out by the state-controlled education system, the state-controlled media and within the families (with people not realising that they were brainwashing and being brainwashed, to the extent that they believed and propagated a whole bunch of lies about Portugal). How would you feel going through that experience? I knew both countries, so I knew that what I had to put up with was an outrage. At that time India was even poorer and more backward than it is today. Lisbon had as many cars as Bombay, the largest city of India (this is a statistical fact)! Bombay had not a single FM radio station, something we had in Mozambique since the sixties! Goa had no television broadcasting (must have been one of the last places on earth to get it). Those same colleagues of mine offered to buy just about everything Portuguese that I had (), from used shoes to used jeans, watch, etc. In Miramar, where I lived, we used to get a 2-hour water supply per day, from the mains, which meant opening the water tank of the building for 15 minutes every day! The daily power cut (sometimes several a day) was as certain as the visit of the baker. These are a few examples... 2. Goans's distinct identity You claim that that identity is well preserved. I hope you are right. Only the future can tell. The catholics, who have more to loose from dilution into the hindu majority mainstream, don't seem to be worried about it. I Know of people that have traded portuguese surnames for hindu ones. Is that a necessity in order to integrate in India? There is a hindu fundamentalist Govt. in India and in Goa. I don't know of any concerted effort by the christian minority, muslims, secular hindus, to oppose the saffron agenda. But it's nice to know that you are self-assured, that you have a great sense of identity, "more than you need perhaps",and that I must not fear for it. One nagging doubt in my mind is whether you perceive Goan identity as being different / distinct (not opposed) from Indian identity, or whether you consider yourself one with the other 1000 million Indians. If that is the case, there is no point in discussing Goan identity, as you would definitely have given it up. Rui Collaço From: "Helga do Rosario Gomes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet] flogging a very dead and decomposed horse Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 23:00:36 -0500 For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com Rui Collaco, Unless you are new to the goanet this isn't a new topic of discussion - in fact we are now flogging a very dead and decomposed horse! When this rotten carcass makes its odiferous presence felt on the net occasionally (probably from winter cabin fever) I tend to ignore it because I do not have anything new to contribute to its decay. But this time I felt I should set straight a few misconceptions that I did not know that Goan-Portuguese or Portuguese -Goans had about Indians who live in Goa. Like many others who you are arguing with these days I too lived and was educated in Goa, spoke Portuguese because my parents were educated in Goa but was too young to 'appreciate' the loss and void that you think the Portuguese left behind. However as some others have already impressed upon you we were never 'brainwashed' into thinking ill of our colonizers. Maybe you should explain what you really mean by brainwashed for I have hear
Re: [Goanet] Brilliant!
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com Congratulations for your brilliant contribution! It really enriched this forum...! Since you like these "fait-divers", guess who is doing the construction work in Portugal these days: Africans, Ukrainians and...Indians. The Indians also double as mobile-phone fraudsters, and are increasingly ending up in jail, having three square meals a day at the taxpayer's expense, which is more than they would have back home! Rui Collaço From: "John J. D'Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet] PPP GDP vs Exchange rate GDP Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 19:22:34 -0800 For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com ******** Rui Collaco said "I live in Lisbon, Portugal, and have a very good life. " Good for you ! Others from Portugal were not so lucky, and had to come here. See excerpt: With Hardened Hands: A Pictorial History of Portuguese Immigration to Canada http://www.goacom.com/news/news2003/feb/msg3.html The community is a distinct feature of the Canadian Mosiac and has contributed skilled persons for doing most of the constuction work here in Toronto JJD'S - Original Message - From: "Sunila Muzawar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] PPP GDP vs Exchange rate GDP > > For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com > > > > >From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: [Goanet] PPP GDP vs Exchange rate GDP > >Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 00:34:43 + > > > > > >About your other remarks: > > > >1. I don't think there has been any argument on which is the best place to > >live.I certainly did not enter into one. But since you brought up the > >subject, I would like to add that I would not even consider spending the > >kind of money you talk about in Goa. > > You don't need to spend a whole lot of money in Goa. You can buy far more > for very little as compared to Europe. > > >Last time I was there, in 1998, I was terribly disappointed and utterly > >frustrated. I did not find great differences compared to 1982.All the old > >problems remained: daily power cuts (even in the capital), "fluctuating" > >electric current (which is one of many unique features of India), shortages > >of water, plenty of mosquitoes and the risk of malaria,etc. I went to Dona > >Paula beach for a dip in the ocean and all I got was patches of grease all > >over the body, such was the level of pollution of the water, without a > >single notice or warning on sight. I distinctly remember wanting to have a > >freezing beer or milkshake and being told that none was available because > >there was no power.These are basic things that even if you are a > >billionaire you cannot buy. So how can you enjoy the ideal lifestyle you > >mentioned, in such a country? Are maids and cooks and drivers all that > >matters to you? What about the infrastructure? It is virtually non-existent > >in Goa. I would like to drive on decent roads (I don't even ask for > >motorways), have a stable and uninterrupted supply of energy and water and > >live in a reasonably clean environment. None of these requirements can be > >had in Goa.I landed in N.Delhi and Bombay and could not believe I was at > >the int'l airports of the two most important cities of India, such was > >their miserable appearance, by international standards. Goa and India are > >no match for a number of countries I have visited, all third world, but > >where I got value for money and quality, and did not have to worry about > >basics. In fact, the only thing that pulls me to Goa are my relatives who > >live there. > > I was in Goa for three weeks in Aug 2002. And let me tell you my > experiences. As soon as I arrived at the airport, a taxi driver smiled and > asked me with a genuine warmth "Bai gaadi jai? " I said yes, and we piled > into his car. He stowed the luggage at the back and on top of the car > himself and actually refused any help from us. Then during the ride, he > proceeded to give us an account of the latest happenings in Goa on the > political front and in normal life with an easy camaderie and cool. Our stay > was great. There were no power cuts, no wat
Re: [Goanet] Paradise found!
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com Ms Muzawar, Despite your depiction of Goa as the "only paradise on earth" ()I expected some degree of seriousness from you. Reading your heated reaction to what I wrote I realise that you can't be taken seriously. Your arguments are pathetic and loughable. You say that Goa is better off than it was 40 years ago! Is that any achievement? Isn't the entire world better off and much, much better off than 40 years ago? Is there any region of the world that isn't? You say I attacked your person. I went over what I wrote and I fail to see where is the attack on your person! You must be very susceptible... But I have no problem in apologising for what you perceived as an attack. There was no such intention, I assure you. It appears that some people feel attacked when their ideas are countered! As for your personal attack on myself, I will just add that I certainly do not have any identity problems. I belong in Europe, I feel very confortable here. It seems that mentioning this makes you unconfortable. I know you can't understand this fact, but I can't waste too much time explaining that to you. I never felt racism around me. But I can tell you there is much more racism in India than in Europe. When I was in Goa, I realised how a group of unfortunate Nigerian students at Dhempe College were victims of racism and completely ignored by their Goan colleagues, left alone on their own in a distant foreign land. That situation is unthinkable in Europe. By the way, did the Portuguese rob your family of anything? In my family, there is no record in 500 years of anyone having been robbed by the Portuguese. To the best of my knowledge, the Portuguese did not rob Goa of anything. Rather to the contrary, Goa was a drain on their resources. In Africa and Brazil one could perhaps say that. There was a lot of gold in Brazil that enriched Portugal. Maybe the Indians have taken from Goa more in 40 years than the Portuguese took in 450! Within days of the "liberation" they had carted off to New Delhi the "Emissora de Goa"'s powerful radio tranmitters and the Goa Governor's american car, not to mention the looting of foreign goods from the shops by the indian soldiers. But I suppose that can be called "fraternal sharing of resources"! Last but not least, you say that Panaji and Margao are cleaner than New York and London. It's a hilarous joke! hehehehehe! Ever thought of craking this one at some "tiatr" in Goa? That's why you can't be taken seriously... Rui Collaço Lisbon From: "Sunila Muzawar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Paradise found! Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:23:56 +0400 ******** For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Paradise found! Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 16:41:26 + Reading Sunila Muzawar's account of her stay in Goa, one cannot but agree that it is Paradise on Earth! How very lucky Goans are...! How silly of them to leave Paradise for earthly destinations... But then I wondered: Can anyone transform hell into paradise in less than 5 years? Only God and, apparently, Manohar Parrikar! It is surely a divine blessing to have such a genius at the helm. And what a waste not to have such a cosmic-class statestman in New Delhi, to do to India as a whole the miracle he has performed in Goa, and perhaps after that to the entire world. We are all eagerly awaiting that day... Well so am I. In fact, it is high time people like Chandrababu Naidu (Telugu Desam party), Manohar Parrikar(BJP), V.Krishna(Congress), etc. were active on the nation front rather than just for their states. After all they have changed the face of their states. Andhra Pradesh (AP) was at one time the poorest state in India. Today there is electricity, water, transportation & roads, school etc. in every village. Considering 90% of AP is rural and until a little more than five years ago they did not have all this, it is a great achievement. V.Krishna is the Karnataka minister who was the first guy to take the software kings like Narayamurthy (Infosys) etc. into confidence and he is busy transforming Karnataka. Of course, he has a lot more to do but he is definitely on the way. Manohar Parrikar is the best thing that happened to Goa. Not only did he bring stablity with his crafty political skills but he has also brought focus on to development issues whereas for the last 20-30 years the focus was on how rich can the MLAs and Ministers get by hopping from pa
Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan!
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com Mr. Mello, you are tired and disappointed because truth hurts sometimes! Some Indian Goans are so full of nationalistic pride that they can't tolerate any kind of criticism. They have been told since their kindergarten days that India is the best place under the sun and they believed it. They hate being reminded that that is not so. Speaking for myself, I have not been putting down Goa or India. I have dwelt on facts, like my 1998 trip to Goa. I did not like what I saw. Am I supposed to say that I loved it, just to please you and other like-minded Indians? And what about that favourite pastime of some goanetters which is Portugal-bashing, do you ever get tired of it? I agree with almost everything else you said. Those are facts of history and you are right in reminding us of them. However people should be aware that that was the reality of the anglo-saxon world. In Portugal and its colonies it was a vastly different story. Goans have played a major role in portuguese society for a long, long time. There have been a number of Goan judges, university professors, medical doctors, high Govt. officials, ambassadors (there are probably more Goans as ambassadors of Portugal than as ambassadors of India),etc.from the 19th century onwards, working all across the then portuguese empire.The colonisation of Mozambique was done by Europeans and Goans, side by side.Today there are thousands of goans (or rather, citizens of goan origin, like myself) in the Govt. departments, universities, the judiciary, hospitals, foreign service, etc., in the most qualified positions. They get there based on merit, because there is no discrimination against them. I was born in 1963 in Mozambique, under portuguese colonial rule. I have always been a fully fledged portuguese national. Never ever did I feel discriminated by the whites or the authorities. And we do not owe this to "India's standing in the world". We were integrated and respected long before India even existed as an independent country. Portugal knows Goa and Goans and respects them on their own merits. People tend to forget or ignore that the Portuguese experience is very different from the anglo-saxon one. Rui Collaço Lisbon From: "Tim de Mello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] I am a Goan! Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 18:55:58 + For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com I am tired (and disappointed) reading e-mails from Goans that put down India and Goa and extoll the virtues of Europe, America, Australia/NZ, etc. We must remember that we are in these countries at the sufferance of the indigineous populations - particularly in the ones governed by the Anglo-Saxons (A-S). Let us not lose sight of the fact that if suitable A-S's could be found we would not be allowed to set foot in these countries. These countries (and South Africa, until recently) were developed for THEIR people - not for us! History books have recorded these facts - "White Australia", "Apartheid" (which incidentally was based on the Canadian system of separating the Whites from the native populations, etc. Also, look at the history of the Sikhs looking to settle in Vancouver (Komagata Maru in 1914), the way the Chinese & Japanese people were dealt with in the 1940s in the US and Canada, and recently the plight of Berna Cruz at the hands of US officials. Berna Cruz was one case that received a lot of publicity, but I have heard of many such cases which go unreported. Think about this the next time you try and visit one of these A-S countries. Many Goans who keep casting aspersions on India and Goa, I am sure, just managed to qualify for entry into these A-S countries by the skin of their teeth and now prance around as something superior to those in India. In fairness, there are also many Indians (i.e. not from Goa) who do the same. They must remember one thing. YOU ARE AFFORDED RESPECT (OR DIS-RESPECT) (and suffer or enjoy your position in this society) BECAUSE OF THE STANDING OF INDIA IN THE WORLD TODAY. e.g. If you are considered clever in IT it is because of the standing of India in the world today - and a prospective employer is likely to give you preference over some other non-Indian immigrant. You are seen and viewed by the mainstream majority as Indian not as Goan - however much you try and argue your pathetic cases here on Goa-Net. India has many problems and they are they there for all to see. e.g. Just go to Agra to view the Taj Mahal and you will pass through some of the filthiest places on earth. But just as well, India has made giant strides in almost every field of human endeavour. Yes, they are there - if you choose to see. Tim d
Re: [Goanet] Paradise found!
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com Reading Sunila Muzawar's account of her stay in Goa, one cannot but agree that it is Paradise on Earth! How very lucky Goans are...! How silly of them to leave Paradise for earthly destinations... But then I wondered: Can anyone transform hell into paradise in less than 5 years? Only God and, apparently, Manohar Parrikar! It is surely a divine blessing to have such a genius at the helm. And what a waste not to have such a cosmic-class statestman in New Delhi, to do to India as a whole the miracle he has performed in Goa, and perhaps after that to the entire world. We are all eagerly awaiting that day... Then I woke up from the dream I was getting into, and remembered Sunila's earlier goanet contributions, which left no doubt in my mind about her BJP affiliation.Being a well-known Parrikar stalwart, her depiction of paradise sounds hollow and fabricated. I wish I could believe you, but my assessments are always based on hard facts, not on emotional accounts of nostalgic emigrants returning on holidays. Isn't it sad that you left Goa just when it became paradise? And why do you keep talking about the portuguese legacy? Isn't that ridiculous, 42 years after the so-called liberation? In my opinion, this is the most significant evidence of India's total failure. People still feel the need to blame all their evils on the portuguese. What about those countries that in the same period of time rose from poverty into modern and prosperous societies, like South Korea? Why do Indians always look for external causes for their internal failures? If it took 41 years for the roads to be broadened, then you should be asking why did it take so long for that to happen? Shouldn't that have been done within 5 years after "liberation"? That's what I would expect from a Govt. that "liberates" a territory from colonialism! You mentioned Panaji and Margao markets being clean. Were Panaji and Margao cities equally clean? So many people that I know from Lisbon visit Goa every year. I wonder why nobody gives me the good tidings... As for your reference to the standard of living in Goa being "quite good", what else can I say? No comments...Maybe you were comparing it to Bihar's standard of living. Rui Collaço From: "Sunila Muzawar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] PPP GDP vs Exchange rate GDP Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 13:00:36 +0400 For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] PPP GDP vs Exchange rate GDP Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 00:34:43 + About your other remarks: 1. I don't think there has been any argument on which is the best place to live.I certainly did not enter into one. But since you brought up the subject, I would like to add that I would not even consider spending the kind of money you talk about in Goa. You don't need to spend a whole lot of money in Goa. You can buy far more for very little as compared to Europe. Last time I was there, in 1998, I was terribly disappointed and utterly frustrated. I did not find great differences compared to 1982.All the old problems remained: daily power cuts (even in the capital), "fluctuating" electric current (which is one of many unique features of India), shortages of water, plenty of mosquitoes and the risk of malaria,etc. I went to Dona Paula beach for a dip in the ocean and all I got was patches of grease all over the body, such was the level of pollution of the water, without a single notice or warning on sight. I distinctly remember wanting to have a freezing beer or milkshake and being told that none was available because there was no power.These are basic things that even if you are a billionaire you cannot buy. So how can you enjoy the ideal lifestyle you mentioned, in such a country? Are maids and cooks and drivers all that matters to you? What about the infrastructure? It is virtually non-existent in Goa. I would like to drive on decent roads (I don't even ask for motorways), have a stable and uninterrupted supply of energy and water and live in a reasonably clean environment. None of these requirements can be had in Goa.I landed in N.Delhi and Bombay and could not believe I was at the int'l airports of the two most important cities of India, such was their miserable appearance, by international standards. Goa and India are no match for a number of countries I have visited, all third world, but where I got value for money and quality, and did not have to worry about basics. In fact,
Re: [Goanet] Gutter language
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com I wish to make it clear to everyone that the reference to "third world sewage" is not mine. I don't use that kind of language. I like serious discussions, not "gutter language". Some people seem to be mistaking me for someone else. Miguel Bragança is right: I am not a Goan; I am a Portuguese citizen of Goan origin. That's exactly what I wrote some days ago. Rui Collaço Lisbon - Portugal From: "Miguel Braganza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet] Look at Portugal Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 22:00:37 +0530 For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com I think some one needs to mind his language.There is no such person as a pro-Indian Goan. All Goans in Goa are Indians unless they have expressly retained a portuguese/foreign nationality.Fr.Chico did for some unexplained reason.Others retain/seek it for financial reasons or for travelling as pseudo-whites in Europe.They are entitled to it.But asking Goans if they want to be part of third world or equating the proud people of third world countries to sewage shows the mentality of a gutter-rat trapped in a sewerage drain and unable to see beyond it.Those who do not live in Goa are at best' people of of Goan origin'.No more,no less. Miguel - Original Message - From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Mr. Pinto, you talk about looking at Portugal. Well, indeed, why not? I > invite you and all other brainwashed Goans to take a good look at Portugal. > Have you ever set foot in this country? I doubt very much. You may be in for > the shock of your life. You are probably part of that generation of Goans > that was thoroughly brainwashed by the Indian authorities (they are very > good at that), and believe Portugal to be a poor and backward country. In > fact, some people in Goa think that Portugal is poorer thanIndia! Such > levels of ignorance are tragic. We are indeed poor, compared to Norway > If you want to make comparisons, let's get down to it. Some things that are > said about Portugal on goanet make those who say them look quite ridiculous, > in this Information Era! > > > > > > > > > > Do these pro-indian Goans want > > > Goa to be part of a third world > > > sewage? > > > >Look at Portugal right now. Do you think Goa would have been any better > >had it remained under their administration? > > > > > >Neal Pinto > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >http://www.nealpinto.com [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 07:23:52 + (GMT) > >Subject: Re: [Goanet] All Goans are Indians? > > Without taking fixed and inflexible sides, we > > > could continually ask which > > > > post-1961 changes are benefitting Goa and which > > > are harming it. > > > >The benefits of post 1961 are the brainwashing young > >Goans by the bharati serkar, to accept that it is OK > >for Goa to be part of a third world country. > > > >Do these pro-indian Goans want Goa to be part of a > >third world sewage? > > > >Goencho fudar fokot bharati sekarachea suteao zaun! ___ > >Goanet mailing list > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release Date: 2/25/2003 ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Re: [Goanet] PPP GDP vs Exchange rate GDP
ailable in the west. All in all, I would get a far bigger bang for my buck in Goa, be next to some of the best beaches in the world and have a hell of a time hanging out at the shacks. Perhaps one day when the stockmarket recovers. The problem of course with living in India is making the money that enables one to enjoy this ideal lifestyle. This is the prime reason why most of us have left India. There are some other reasons too such as career opportunties, graduate education, family etc. Most of us certainly did not leave Goa because of this so called "Indian occupation". To me, the ideal senario is spending several of the more pleasant winter months in Goa and the rest travelling around the world. If one were to use the financial metric for leaving India, then Portugal would not be a great place to move to. The clear answer would be the US. The US is clearly the worlds premier economic, cultural and military super power in the world today. Did I also mention low taxes? So there you have it folks. All you goans who made the terrible mistake in moving to a relatively backward Europe - redeem yourselves and come to America. Marlon -- Original Message -- From: "Rui Collaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> No, it is not the end of the matter. India's GDP per capita, at market exchange rates, is only around US$ 500. Anyone can check this at www.economist.com/country briefings/factsheet. If you are are using the PPP (purchasing power parities) indicator, you ought to tell us about it. As for the G7, it has never been the Group of 7 richest, it is the Group of 7 most powerful economies in the world, which are also rich (that's why they are there, if they were poor they wouldn't be powerful, which is the case with India).That's why countries like Norway and Switzerland, being richer than Britain and France (both G7 members) are not members of the group, because they are small economies. Rui Colla? >From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >I hope this is the end of the matter. > >G.D.P. per capita countries in mentioned in contention. > >India 2,443 >Macau 17,235 >Norway 27,557 >Switzerland 28,421 >U.S. 35,831 >U.K 22,801 >Portugal 15,795. > > >Of the above countries which countries are in the G7 considered the richest >countries in the world? > >Also Macau is richer than Portugal, what does that mean? > >Hope this settles the issue once and for all. > ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Re: [Goanet] G.D.P. Per capit. Portugal, India....
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com No, it is not the end of the matter. India's GDP per capita, at market exchange rates, is only around US$ 500. Anyone can check this at www.economist.com/country briefings/factsheet. If you are are using the PPP (purchasing power parities) indicator, you ought to tell us about it. As for the G7, it has never been the Group of 7 richest, it is the Group of 7 most powerful economies in the world, which are also rich (that's why they are there, if they were poor they wouldn't be powerful, which is the case with India).That's why countries like Norway and Switzerland, being richer than Britain and France (both G7 members) are not members of the group, because they are small economies. Rui Collaço From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "goanet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet] G.D.P. Per capit. Portugal, India Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:31:13 - For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com I hope this is the end of the matter. G.D.P. per capita countries in mentioned in contention. India 2,443 Macau 17,235 Norway 27,557 Switzerland 28,421 U.S. 35,831 U.K 22,801 Portugal 15,795. Of the above countries which countries are in the G7 considered the richest countries in the world? Also Macau is richer than Portugal, what does that mean? Hope this settles the issue once and for all. ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Re: [Goanet] Look at Portugal????
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com For the record, I confirm what I wrote earlier. India's GDP was in 2001, US $ 481 bn, at market exchange rates. Portugal's GDP in the same year was US $ 110 bn, also at market exchange rates. It is easy to conclude that India's GDP was only 4 times bigger than Portugal's in that year. This indicator (nominal GDP) is the most used in international statistics. I got it from "The Economist" (country briefings/factsheet).If Neal Pinto is using a different indicator, namely GDP at PPP, he should make it clear to goanetters. However, the fact remains that what I wrote is absolutely true, to India's shame. As for Portugal, yes it is not among the richest countries in Europe. But being "one of the poorest in Western Europe" means nothing nowadays. "Western Europe" is a concept of the cold-war era, long gone. Nobody in Europe would use that expression meaningfully.It could perhaps designate the richest part of Europe. In the new continental context however, Portugal is far from being among the poorest countries. In relation to Goa being part of India, I never said a word about it and I do not wish to be drawn into that discussion, although I have my own opinion on that. I consider it a non-issue. Goans in Goa seem to be contented with their lot.They welcomed the "liberators", they accepted being brainwashed, they gave up their distinct identity (which even Nehru talked of preserving), so I think they got what they deserved in a big way. I would rather talk about East Timor and how a valiant people conquered their freedom and created a new nation (with Portugal's unswerving support). Rui Collaço Lisboa From: "Neal Pinto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Look at Portugal Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 15:04:07 -0500 (EST) For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com For the record, India's GDP is approximately 14 times bigger than Portugal (although I agree that it still doesn't account for the population difference). I never suggested that Portugal was worse off than India. I simply asked IF Goa would have been better off. I've never believed that Goa stood a chance of being an entity completely independent of both India and Portugal. I have been born and raised in Canada so the Indian authorities never had a chance to "brainwash" me. I've just observed countless Goans passionately reject any connection to India (or its people) as if they look in the mirror each morning and pray for their skin to lighten. My perception could have been incorrect but I sensed that there was a bit of pretentiousness in referring to Goa now being part of "third-world sewage". Portugal may be rich when compared to India on the points of GDP vs. population but, in the context of western-Europe, Portugal is one of the poorest countries. As far as using the example of Macau as how a Portuguese colony has remained successful, I can't comment. How similar (or different) were the Goan and Macanese economic models? What has the extent of Portuguese influence been on Macau compared to Goa and what were the differences in their dependence on Portugal? Basically, can they be compared directly? Neal Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nealpinto.com --- On Thu 03/13, Ivor < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: From: Ivor [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:31:02 -0800 Subject: Re: [Goanet] Look at Portugal For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com Well said - thank you guys. Ivor (Samora) -Original Message- From: Lily & Gabe Menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Look at Portugal > >For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com > > > > > >The U.K. is considered one of the richest countries in the world. the G.D.P. >or London is greater than Sweden. >Check your facts before you shoot! > >Cheers Gabe Menezes > > >Mr. Pinto, you talk about looking at Portugal. Well, indeed, why not? I >invite you and all other brainwashed Goans to take a good look at Portugal. >Have you ever set foot in this country? I doubt very much. You may be in for >the shock of your life. You are probably part of that generation of Goans >that was thoroughly brainwashed by the Indian authorities (they are very >good at that), and believe Portugal to be a poor and backward country. In >fact, some people in Goa think that Portugal is poorer thanIndia! Such >levels of ignorance are tragic. We are
Re: [Goanet] Look at Portugal????Checking facts
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com G. Menezes, I normally check my facts "before I shoot". And the facts are that both Switzerland and Norway are a lot richer than the UK, so in that sense the UK is poorer than those countries, just like Portugal. That's what I meant to say, in case you didn't understand. I was trying to make the point that it seems ridiculous to me that Indian citizens should time and again mock Portugal on Goanet, without knowing the real facts, let alone having seen for themselves ! After all, India is one of the poorest and most backward countries on earth, a world champion in mass poverty and social injustice. Of course I know that the UK is a rich country and that London is a very rich city, but then again London is not the UK, and you have vast areas in your country that are below the EU average. You may know (many UK citizens don't know) that your country also receives vast amounts of money from the EU's structural funds, specially from the Regional Development Fund, even though the "establishment" there doesn't like to admit or publicise it. Maybe it's time for you to check your facts too! In any case, I don't see why you should be so sensitive... to the truth. Regards Rui Manuel Miranda Collaço Lisboa - Portugal From: "Lily & Gabe Menezes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet] Look at Portugal Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:07:39 - For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com The U.K. is considered one of the richest countries in the world. the G.D.P. or London is greater than Sweden. Check your facts before you shoot! Cheers Gabe Menezes Mr. Pinto, you talk about looking at Portugal. Well, indeed, why not? I invite you and all other brainwashed Goans to take a good look at Portugal. Have you ever set foot in this country? I doubt very much. You may be in for the shock of your life. You are probably part of that generation of Goans that was thoroughly brainwashed by the Indian authorities (they are very good at that), and believe Portugal to be a poor and backward country. In fact, some people in Goa think that Portugal is poorer thanIndia! Such levels of ignorance are tragic. We are indeed poor, compared to Norway or Switzerland, but then the UK also is! However, by Indian standards, we should be very rich. I would like to inform you that Portugal's GDP is around US $ 130 bn, for a population of 10 million. India, with more than 100 times that population, has a GDP only about 4 times bigger!!!So who's poor? It would be interesting to know what "look" at Portugal you had in mind. If you want to make comparisons, let's get down to it. Some things that are said about Portugal on goanet make those who say them look quite ridiculous, in this Information Era! >From: "Neal Pinto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [Goanet] All Goans are Indians? Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 >15:28:27 -0500 (EST) > > >For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com > > > > > > > > > Do these pro-indian Goans want > > Goa to be part of a third world > > sewage? > >Look at Portugal right now. Do you think Goa would have been any better >had it remained under their administration? > > >Neal Pinto >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://www.nealpinto.com > > > > --- On Fri 03/07, =?iso-8859-1?q?Bernado=20Colaco?= < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > wrote: >From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Bernado=20Colaco?= [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 07:23:52 + (GMT) >Subject: Re: [Goanet] All Goans are Indians? > > >For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com > > > > > > > > Without taking fixed and inflexible sides, we > > could continually ask which > > > post-1961 changes are benefitting Goa and which > > are harming it. > >The benefits of post 1961 are the brainwashing young >Goans by the bharati serkar, to accept that it is OK >for Goa to be part of a third world country. > >Do these pro-indian Goans want Goa to be part of a >third world sewage? > >Goencho fudar fokot bharati sekarachea suteao zaun! ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
Re: [Goanet] Look at Portugal????
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com Mr. Pinto, you talk about looking at Portugal. Well, indeed, why not? I invite you and all other brainwashed Goans to take a good look at Portugal. Have you ever set foot in this country? I doubt very much. You may be in for the shock of your life. You are probably part of that generation of Goans that was thoroughly brainwashed by the Indian authorities (they are very good at that), and believe Portugal to be a poor and backward country. In fact, some people in Goa think that Portugal is poorer thanIndia! Such levels of ignorance are tragic. We are indeed poor, compared to Norway or Switzerland, but then the UK also is! However, by Indian standards, we should be very rich. I would like to inform you that Portugal's GDP is around US $ 130 bn, for a population of 10 million. India, with more than 100 times that population, has a GDP only about 4 times bigger!!!So who's poor? It would be interesting to know what "look" at Portugal you had in mind. If you want to make comparisons, let's get down to it. Some things that are said about Portugal on goanet make those who say them look quite ridiculous, in this Information Era! From: "Neal Pinto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] All Goans are Indians? Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 15:28:27 -0500 (EST) For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com > Do these pro-indian Goans want > Goa to be part of a third world > sewage? Look at Portugal right now. Do you think Goa would have been any better had it remained under their administration? Neal Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nealpinto.com --- On Fri 03/07, =?iso-8859-1?q?Bernado=20Colaco?= < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Bernado=20Colaco?= [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 07:23:52 + (GMT) Subject: Re: [Goanet] All Goans are Indians? For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com > > > Without taking fixed and inflexible sides, we > could continually ask which > > post-1961 changes are benefitting Goa and which > are harming it. The benefits of post 1961 are the brainwashing young Goans by the bharati serkar, to accept that it is OK for Goa to be part of a third world country. Do these pro-indian Goans want Goa to be part of a third world sewage? Goencho fudar fokot bharati sekarachea suteao zaun! __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
[Goanet] Re: [Goanet]Not all Goans are Indians
For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com Just a quick note to reinforce the idea that not all Goans are Indians, as has been said. My mother, for instance, was born in Goa before 1961. She is a Goan, but she has never been Indian. India is a political entity created only in 1947, centuries after Goa was part of a distinct political entity. Thousands of Goans like my mother are attached to Goa but not to India. By definition, an Indian is a citizen of India. If by Indian one means the ethnicity, then we all have our roots in the subcontinent, but that is a vague concept, which means very little to me, since there is no Indian race and the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalese and Sri Lankans can claim the same ancestry. As for me, I do not deny my origins, let me be clear about this, I am proud of it. I am brown-skinned and my colour is highly appreciated here in Portugal (several women have praised it.) I was born in Mozambique of Goan parents, and all my grandparents were born in Goa. I define myself as a Portuguese citizen of Goan (not Indian) origin, and am quite happy with that. Never had any identity problems. Being Portuguese and living in Lisbon, I know that any cultured fellow citizen here knows only too well the difference between a Goan and an Indian. There are more than 1000 million Indians, there are less than 1 million genuine Goans. Even though I am thorougly integrated in the Portuguese mainstream (Goans and their descendants are not treated as, and do not consider themselves as a minority in this country)I enjoy feeling culturally and above all emotionally attached to the Goan flock. Rui Manuel Miranda Collaço (Lisboa) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] All Goans are Indians Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:52:13 EST For more information/links, see http://goanet.netfirms.com In a message dated 03/03/2003 12:16:39 PM EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Surely, you don't think I don't know that there are Goans who have become citizens of other countries, or who have never been citizens of India in the first place? All I meant to say was Goa is an integral part of India in a dramatic sort of way. I am not much of a jingoist. Hello Chimbelcho: So nice to hear from you and isn't semantics a funny thing? Your clarification is greatly appreciated. While you may not be a jingoist, there are others who get caught up with subject misconceptions and suffer from myopic vision. I for one, and there could be many other Goans, who never were or wouldn't ever consider themselves Indians. Hairsplitting terminology, such as "Of Goan Origin" is jingoism personified. Persons born prior to India's 1961 invasion of Goa, were Portuguese Indian. Those from other parts of India were British Indian prior to the Partition of 1947. Goan, like Irish, does not signify citizenship but simply connotes roots to many, i.e., from Goa. On March 17, St. Paddy's Day, everyone turns Green and momentarily become Irish. Goans, in the pluralistic form, are very much like the Irish or Poles, spread all over the world, but maintaining their individualistic link to the Goa they knew and personify. It is an unmitigated fact that the State of Goa is presently an integral part of Republic of India. The subcontinent of India, also includes Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Hopefully we all will all learn to live and let live. Viva Goa: Patrick de Sousa PS: Fakirs are typically synonomous with beggars from India. ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ Goanet mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.goanet.org/mailman/listinfo/goanet
