[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
In 1633, the Pope imprisoned an innocent man and asked him to recant a certain hypothesis. The man spent the rest of his life under house-arrest. His name was Galileo and his assertion was simple. That the earth revolved round the sun. The Church at the time believed that the earth was the central planet and everything else revolved around it. I can well imagine living in 1633. The hullabaloo, Galileo must have created. How the elite, the intelligentsia, the theologians, the scribes, the bards, the scientists of the day, must have huddled over unleavened bread and bitter coffee, discussing and debating Galileo. Some talking about rallies and other ways to censure Galileo. Others afraid to contemplate what might be plausible. Afraid because the spectre of the Church by way of the Inquisition was everywhere. And one wrong word could mean years of prison and torture. We live in a different world today. We live in the world of Dan Brown and Timothy Freke. And because men like Galileo, came before us; men who preferred to live their days under house arrest rather than bow in submission, we live in a world where the Church cannot imprison us for deeds or thoughts of so-called heresy. I don't want to take away from the Church, the enormous contribution it has made to society's cultural, spiritual and philosophical evolution. But we cannot live under the yoke of "blind faith". Every hypothesis, however unpalatable it is to the Church has to be examined. No hypothesis is to be construed as a strike against the Church. There is a goal, above all else for mankind and that is the relentless pursuit of the truth. Every new grain of knowledge that comes our way must be examined and if it stands the test of truth in the cold light of day, it must become part of our consciousness. Because the only heresy is to live in denial of the truth. Elisabeth __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
Hi Elisabeth, So where is the beef? Who is stopping one from seeking the truth? The one place we will not find the truth is by reading fiction - like Dan Brown's "Da Vinci Code". And what makes one think that the "Judas gospel" may not have been fiction too? Either way Judas gospel IMHO is not being correlated with the "Gnostic belief" on the nature of Christ. We are listening to Hutton speak. But Hutton has to give clear recommendations.:=)) Is your beef against the concept of God, Jesus Christ, the Church, or individuals in the Church who committed civilian acts on behalf of a religious Church? The church has committed blunders over the 2006 years of existence. Even the Church admits it. So again where is the beef? But so has every branch of science, medicine, law, history, anthropology, politics, etc.. Do you not go to a doctor because medicine 3500 BC to 1500 AD believed in some / many archaic concepts? In fact many beliefs and recommendations in medicine even today radically change every two or three years. Remember NOW when Hutton talks people listen. You have a REP to sustain.:=)) Kind Regards, GL Elisabeth Carvalho: There is a goal, above all else for mankind and that is the relentless pursuit of the truth. Every new grain of knowledge that comes our way must be examined and if it stands the test of truth in the cold light of day, it must become part of our consciousness. Because the only heresy is to live in denial of the truth. Elisabeth _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Forwarded with Love! Kind Regards, GL >From Foxnews: Fact and Fiction: 'The Da Vinci Code' by Father Jonathan Morris Have you seen the double trapdoor through which "Da Vinci" critics are falling headfirst? It's hard to miss. Both flaps are adorned with tantalizing signs. The first says, "Burn the book, it's the devil." The second laughs mockingly or innocently, "Relax, it is just fiction, after all." Trapdoors always lead down. Here's looking up: Dan Brown's book is not the devil and it's not just fiction. He purports it to be a historic novel founded on scrupulous research. In reality, it is a devilish hodgepodge of well-disguised fiction and fact. His intentions were to confuse, and confuse he did. Sticking to our thesis that this phenomenon is a blessing in disguise for curious minds, today we'll unravel four of Brown's most tightly wound knots. Some of you expect me to preach, to set the story straight with a call to belief. You won't find that here. Nonetheless, a clear mind is the best soil for seeds of faith, and God knows, there's a lot of clearing to do. ART CLASS Fiction: Mr. Brown says it is Mary Magdalene seated to the right of Jesus, not John the Apostle, in Leonardo Da Vinci's painting, "The Last Supper." Fact: In his own "Treatise on Painting," Leonardo Da Vinci says the classic "student" should be shown as youthful, long-haired, and clean-shaven. He was true to this approach in his depiction of St. John, as the youngest of the apostles. Neither his contemporary artists nor reputable art historians have doubted his original intention. Fiction: The Da Vinci Code says Leonardo Da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" was an androgynous self-portrait whose title is a mocking anagram of two Egyptian fertility deities- "Amon and L'isa. Fact: It was commonly known at the time of the painting and today, that the "Mona Lisa" portrays a real woman, Madonna Lisa, the wife of Francesco de Bartolomeo del Giocondo. Summary: There is no historical evidence Leonardo Da Vinci used his paintings to reveal secrets or protest traditional beliefs. THE FORMATION OF THE BIBLE Fiction: The Da Vinci Code claims, "...The Bible as we know it today, was collated by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great." (Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code, New York: Doubleday, 2003, p. 231) Fact: No Bible scholar holds Constantine played a role in the development of the Scriptures. The Old Testament canon (the first part of the Christian Bible) was already essentially developed at the time of Jesus and he and his disciples recognized its authority (Luke 24:27, John 5:39). By the late second century, the early Christian community recognized the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (written from approximately 60-120 A.D.) as the four inspired narratives of the life of Christ. Consensus about the contents of the entire New Testament was already growing by the middle of the second-century. The early Christian Fathers of the second century (Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Irenaeus) refer to the four Christian gospels and their authors, and give them a unique place within worship (liturgy) and tradition. It was not until the late 300s and early 400s that regional councils of bishops began the process of official definition. Summary: Christian theology teaches the Bible was written, collated, and defined by human beings inspired by God. No major Christian tradition claims the process was magical. It is easier, not harder, to accept the presence of such inspiration when we consider the unity of Christian belief on essential points of Christian doctrine, despite the human, social, and political influences that could have hijacked its content and interpretation along the way. EARLY BELIEF IN THE DIVINITY OF JESUS OF NAZARETH Fiction: The Da Vinci Code claims that before the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, the followers of Jesus did not consider him divine. Listen in: "Until that moment in history, Jesus was viewed by his followers as a mortal prophet...a great and powerful man, but a man nonetheless. A mortal...By officially endorsing Jesus as the Son of God, Constantine turned Jesus into a deity." (Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code, New York: Doubleday, 2003, p. 233) Fact: New Testament writings (written before the Council), early Church Fathers, and deliberations of the Council itself, show clearly the belief in the divinity of Christ. Here are a few quotatio
[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Hi Santosh, I agree with you that Elisabeth's post was "extremely well written". I am glad you "understood exactly what she meant." As she has not replied, perhaps you know what Elisabeth meant more than she does.:=)) Elisabeth and others (no names please) are articulate enough to write for themselves explaining where exactly is their disconnect from the rest of us. To facilitate the issue, I provided four possible links of disconnect (in sequence). There may be other links in the chain. This would help immensely and end the circular discussion that I see on the Goa-net when it comes to religion. Believe me, I am not trying to save their souls. :=)) I am only trying to save their (and our) minds.:=)) Most of their writings to me is like Edward Verdes' Konkani proverb: "Vontivoilo Nal" Coconut placed on top of the wall. This can fall inside or outside the wall ... refers to persons sitting on a fence facing both ways like the coconut on top of the wall. If one is an agnostic (as you claim you are) then IMHO the nature of God, or the differences between religions; or the actions or practices of the Church through the ages are IRRELEVANT. As these issues assume the existence of God. YOUR ISSUES may be IMHO: the creation of the universe, existence of a soul, life after death or explanations of life. Just as we need to give the agnostics their due, the reverse is true. You are showing the limitations in your knowledge. The Catholic Church has evolved both in theology and practices. The Church too has "an expanding body of knowledge" and continues to do so. And this has occurred with every decade, every encyclical, every synod, every thesis written by theologians, and others who have made a career in the field. Like in science and medicine, some concepts in theology, philosophy, and ethics survive the test of time and others do not. Do you think all religious libraries across universities and churches are just static? So perhaps you need to keep an open mind just like the rest of us. We have been down a similar path before. Mention of anecdotal events of 1000-200 years ago is someone who is stuck in their thinking, unlike the church. Again, for my own interest, I look forward to hearing a FEW lines from OTHER individuals on the WHERE AND WHY of their specific disconnect. It is easy to be a contestant in the game of "pin the donkey's tail". Any blind peson can play this game. Infact, only a blind person can play this game!!! Kind Regards, GL - Santosh Helekar wrote: Elisabeth's post was extremely well written and much more comprehensible. I understood exactly what she meant. In particular, in the above-quoted excerpt I fail to understand why anyone would want to compare the church with all these unrelated disciplines. In what way is a hierarchical religious institution analogous to an expanding body of knowledge such as science? --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The church has committed blunders over the 2006 years of existence. Even the Church admits it. So again where is the beef? But so has every branch of science, medicine, law, history, anthropology, politics, etc.. Do you not go to a doctor because medicine 3500 BC to 1500 AD believed in some / many archaic concepts? _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
Hi Marlon, Since you specifically asked for my review on "another confused work of fiction, also known as the bible", I thought I should respond. As I'm sure you know, I did not write the article about the "fact and fiction" on the Da Vinci Code. I just forwarded an article from FOX news related to this "hot topic". I am NOT an expert on the authenticity of the Bible since "aum ek supurlo Goenkar murre." However one of my quirks has led me to search the exact site / cause of disconnect Catholic Goans have with their religion. Based on the wording of your post, my guess is your disconnect with the Catholic Church appears to me to be related to about 60 - 120 AD when the Gospels were written. Unless "your beef" relates to the translation of the original texts. Or your beef may be with the Jews and the authenticity of the Old Testament. You may wish to clarify with SPECIFICS of your disconnect and research. BTW, even Martin Luther IMHO did not question the historical authenticity and accuracy of the Gospels. In fact after his break with the Church, he went on to translate them (original Gospel writings) into German. Regards, GL > On Sun May 14 13:42:49 PDT 2006, Marlon Menezes wrote: > > Gilbert, it reminds me of another confused work of fiction, also known as the > bible. How about giving us a review of this work of fiction! > _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
[Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
Hi Santosh, I assume your questions are genuine and you are seeking some answers. I am not into some "gotcha" exercise here and I trust you are not into some esoteric discussion. Thanks for asking me about the CONTEMPORARY issues that the "Church thinkers" are involved with. This, rather than discussing / referencing some 200-1000 year old theology, philosophy or practice patterns. I am obviously not an authority on the Church. As a practical person, and as I see it, the Church today is into LIVING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST rather than developing some theoretical concepts of God, angels, heaven, hell, devil, sin, etc, and that itself is a BIG CHANGE. Of course some outstanding and outspoken Christians and non-Christians are still "STUCK" on those issues. Your religion questions should have best been directed to and answered by persons who have spent their career in the field. It is like asking a theologian / philosophy professor about the advances in the last few decades in cancer. Likely they will tell you that there are no advances; as many many patients are still dying from cancer. There is obviously some humor here. Yet, the critics of religion are very similar to critics of medicine. I am going to do my best to be helpful. However if you or others keep rejecting my explanations, that is your choice. It is not my job to educate you about the Church or religion. While I'd like to help, I have neither the time nor the interest to convert you and them. My response (GL) follows each of your Santosh Helekar (SH) questions. --> GL: The Church too has "an expanding body of knowledge" and continues to do so. SH: Can you give me one or two specific examples in which our knowledge of something has been expanded by the Church in the last decade? GL's response: I have already given you a list of texts that you can refer to. The latest one is Pope Benedict XVI's encyclical Deus Caritas Est (God is Love) of 2006. From a practical perspective, the church has developed very thoughtful PERSPECTIVES on "web-of-life" concerns such as: Issues of social justice, immigration, just wages, discrimination, death penalty, conduct of wars, right to basic health care, dignity of dying, right to life and prolongation of life (separate issues), right to die and prolongation of death (separate issues), euthanasia, protection of the unborn, protection of the environment, etc. Many of these issues have been expanded on several occasions in the Catholic literature on "Orthopraxis" and "Canons" on social justice, and other issues which theologians call "Epikeia". Also the Church IMHO no longer holds to the belief that the Catholic Church is the only path to heaven. The church has changed its attitude toward suicide. If one does not believe in God, one may or may not understand and appreciate these perspectives of the Church. --- > GL: Like in science and medicine, some concepts in theology, philosophy, and ethics survive the test of time and others do not. SH: Which concept in theology has survived the test of time? And in which theology? GL response: Many teachings have survived the test of time and form the basis for new thinking in keeping with the advances in the sciences and society. From where I work, I am aware of much new thinking on "Prolonging Life" and "Prolonging Death". The importance of this was well demonstrated in the recent Terry Schiavo case in Florida. She of course is just one example. Similarly there has been much thought into the ethics of the fate of unused In-Vitro fertilized ova. More recently the religious thinking has expanded into the philosophy, safeguards and ethics into the nuances of cloning, stem cell research, gene manipulation and genetic bioengineering. While these are new issues, the original theology of sanctity of life endures. On a social level there are continuing issues of moral culpability and moral justice on which numerous popes and conferences of bishops have written many encyclicals and produced many documents. The latest is the Catholic Church's stand on helping immigrants, even if they are illegal, as spearheaded by the Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles. Once again, the Church is living its theology and philosophy. --> GL: So perhaps you need to keep an open mind just like the rest of us. SH: Open mind about what? Please explain. GL response: There is much shift in interfaith understanding and acceptance. This involves working through the theology, rituals, social practices and finer points of the tenants of different religions. Your closed mind mirrors some of those of the fundamental right. This, though you and OTHERS at times MAY THINK you-all are more concerned and knowledgeable about religious, social and morals issues than the Church. :=)) In summary, religion like medicine is a large encompassing field with a long history. So any
Re: [Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > The church has committed blunders over the 2006 > years of existence. Even the Church admits it. So > again where is the beef? > But so has every branch of science, medicine, law, > history, anthropology, politics, etc.. > Do you not go to a doctor because medicine 3500 BC > to 1500 AD believed in some / many archaic concepts? > Actually, the "Where is the beef" question is more relevant with respect to the above post. Elisabeth's post was extremely well written and much more comprehensible. I understood exactly what she meant. In particular, in the above-quoted excerpt I fail to understand why anyone would want to compare the church with all these unrelated disciplines. In what way is a hierarchical religious institution analogous to an expanding body of knowledge such as science? Moreover, how is this inappropriate comparison pertinent to the heresy trial of Galileo and the current efforts against a work of fiction by Dan Brown? Cheers, Santosh _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
RE: [Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Hello Contemporary Catholic, Christian, Believer or Seeker, "Fact or Fiction?" Whatever the case may be, permit me to offer my two cents in this discussion. I would count myself among the 65 millions or so who have read or heard this fictional novel. I have heard it on an audeo CD as I drove around the San Francisco Bay Area in 2005 and found it intriguing! Father Jonathan Morris says "Trapdoors always lead down." Water seldom goes up. Like Augustine of Hippo we make attempts to empty the ocean into our own little wells or in the words of Albert Schweitzer "Men searching for the historical Jesus look into a deep well, see a reflection of themselves, and call it Lord." None of us has all the knowledge, but we make attempts to tap into that consciousness ["trap" or tool?] which leads the seeker to experience personally "This is Infinite and That is Intimate" (Brihadāranyaka Upanishad 5.1.1). My reflections flow from the history of the evolution of consciousness [change unfloding/enfolding - "evolution or involution" as described by Sri Aurobindu, Theillard de Chardin and others]: A- Jesus of Nazareth, Paul of Tarsus and many others were instrumental in creating a new AWAKENING, which gave rise to "Christ" with its ethos, culture and civilization. B- The new consciousness as evidenced by the popularity [65 million strong] of the Da Vinci Code, in my opinion, seeks to BALANCE history with the contemporary research, needs and values beyond the accepted/limited Christ of History and Faith - a quest. C- Let us hope that this quest CENTERS on the best within each conscious human being and religious/spiritual culture in the ever shrinking global village, rises beyond insecurity, greed and selfishness and reaches out with greater love to a "Civilization with a Heart" [Bede Griffiths 1906-1994] towards a "Planetary Ecology of Compassion" [Gospel of Matthew 25/40], the Golden Rule advocated by most religious and spiritual traditions, D- That once again we may take DELIGHT in and sing with both the heavenly angels and down-to- earth shepherds. This is my wish and prayer "Glory to God in Heaven and Peace on Earth to People of Good Will" [Lk 2/14]. This is my vision of and mission for the Contemporary Church -Community of Believrs! I agree with a very humble soul, Mahatma Gandhi [1869-1948] who wrote "We must be the change we want to see in the world." This change is what I strive for. It is my constant struggle as I seek to Awaken, Balance and Center Delight in the best within every individual and group where the soul glows and grows gracefully with gratitude. Let us be united in supporting one another in this Wonder-filled Adventure of Faith as it unfolds and enfolds in history and eternity! I hope this has helped. Let me know. God bless, Father Ariosto >From Foxnews: Fact and Fiction: 'The Da Vinci Code' by Father Jonathan Morris Have you seen the double trapdoor through which "Da Vinci" critics are falling headfirst? It's hard to miss. Both flaps are adorned with tantalizing signs. The first says, "Burn the book, it's the devil." The second laughs mockingly or innocently, "Relax, it is just fiction, after all." Trapdoors always lead down. Here's looking up: A little knowledge is dangerous, Mr. Brown, for religion and for life. But a lot of knowledge (and a little humility) makes wise men; men and woman who see God not only in scientific gaps, but in their ability to grasp, if only in part, the grandeur of creation, including themselves. I hope this has helped. Let me know. God bless, Father Jonathan -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/339 - Release Date: 5/14/2006 _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Gilbert, it reminds me of another confused work of fiction, also known as the bible. How about giving us a review of this work of fiction! Marlon --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Forwarded with Love! > Kind Regards, GL > > >From Foxnews: Fact and Fiction: > 'The Da Vinci Code' by Father Jonathan Morris > In reality, it is a > devilish hodgepodge of well-disguised fiction and > fact. His intentions were to > confuse, and confuse he did. > _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Gilbert, Sorry, I still don't understand what you are trying to say. If I remember correctly, Elisabeth's post addressed the issue of the censorship of Dan Brown's book of fiction, and compared it with the heresy trial of Galileo. What has this screed of yours got to do with those issues? I ask you again. What is the analogy between the church and science as it relates to historical and contemporary strictures against free thought and free speech? In any case, now that you have aired your views on unrelated matters, let me ask you a few specific questions for the sake of clarity. I hope you will answer them. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >The Church too has "an expanding body of knowledge" >and continues to do so. > Can you give me one or two specific examples in which our knowledge of something has been expanded by the Church in the last decade? > >Like in science and medicine, some concepts in >theology, philosophy, and ethics survive the test of >time and others do not. > Which concept in theology has survived the test of time? And in which theology? > >Do you think all religious libraries across >universities and churches are just static? > Obviously not, because libraries are expanding to accommodate (or renewing their collections to include) new knowledge generated by expanding bodies of knowledge such as science, medicine, history, anthropology, etc. > >So perhaps you need to keep an open mind just like >the rest of us. > Open mind about what? Please explain. Cheers, Santosh _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Galileo, Dan Brown and The Church
--- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Having answered your questions, perhaps you can do > some answering of your own. > Gilbert, My questions were quite simple and straightforward. Unfortunately, you did not give me clear and specific answers to them. Regarding your questions here are my answers. > > What is the purpose of life - human, animal and > plant? Just to procreate, and then be warm food and > / or fertilizer. > As far as human beings are concerned, each individual has his/her own purpose. Mine is to understand how the brain works and why we are conscious. Among other animals, non-primates and non-cetaceans do not seem to be able to contemplate on a purpose of their own. Primates and cetaceans might, but I don't think anybody knows what the purpose might be in each case. > >If there is no God, as you believe, then you are OK >after death. However what if there is a God, will you >and others with anti-religion beliefs be OK? > You are wrong in stating that I have these beliefs. I don't have any beliefs regarding god or anti-religion. But I know based on physical evidence that I won't be OK after my death, irrespective of whether there is/are god(s) or not. Evidence indicates that I would cease to exist. Cheers, Santosh _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
