Re: [Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, Santosh Helekar wrote: I say that both Hindus and Christians in Goa are susceptible to the same mindset. All you need is a sufficiently depraved politician to incite hatred and trigger destructive mob behavior in a small percentage of people, in either the Hindu or the Christian community. That's true! I couldn't agree more. FN
Re: [Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS
--- Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RESPONSE: Are you by any chance Halur ? Yes or NO No. Hopefully, Halur will tell you that he is not Santosh. Are you Bernardo Colaco? Yes, No, May be or Unsure? It is to do with demography and nothing to do with playing a slant card. It is known all over India that the Bengalis are the most ardent sports fans in the whole of India. . Similarly I am of the mindset that Goan Hindus would be more tolerant than from some other parts of India -Gujarat springs readily to mind. I submit to you that you are using a false analogy. Anti-social criminal behavior, even a religiously or ideologically motivated one, is fairly rare in any society, except in times of war. Socially acceptable and desirable behavior such as love of sports or financial activity is very common. One is therefore justified in generalizing a trait based on the cultivation of the latter type of behavior to an entire community, region, culture, religion or nation based on their success at cultivating it. If 80% of the people of a group engage in a particular type of behavior (which is the case with a socially desirable behavior), then it is not much of a stretch to make that behavior a characteristic of 100% of the people of that group. However, one cannot stereotype an entire group of people just because 1% of them exhibited a particular type of behavior (which is the case with criminal behavior) at one time. That is why I find your characterization of the average non-Goan Hindu offensive, as you have done in your following quote: I put it to you, that the average Hindu is easily led, they can then be coerced with litttle compulsion to do the unthinkable! It is the same thing as stereotyping the average Goan as a drunkard, or the average Goan Catholic girl as exhibiting loose morals, something that has been a staple of a popular genre of Bollywood films. Since you are the self proclaimed ruler of Chimbel, I will bow to your superior knowledge, if you can categorically inform me that all Christians, Jews, Muslims are of the same Hue vis a vis their own? I submit to you that the average Hindu from any part of the world is no more or less criminal minded than the average Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, Atheist, Agnostic, etc of any other part of the world. We are all on an average equally susceptible to religious frenzy or mob psychology. I know of gangs in Goa, Hindu, Christian and mixed, some in my own beloved Chimbel or very near to it, who have engaged in various forms of criminal mob behaviors, albeit on a smaller scale. That in effect all Hindus are of the same mindset (in the same vein as those who committed atrocities in Gujarat). If this is the case than God spare the Christian Goans in Goa. I say that both Hindus and Christians in Goa are susceptible to the same mindset. All you need is a sufficiently depraved politician to incite hatred and trigger destructive mob behavior in a small percentage of people, in either the Hindu or the Christian community. Happy New Year! Cheers, Santosh P.S. I think Halur Rasho is an anagram for Rahul Rosha (Rocha).
[Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet]Fw: A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS --- Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I put it to you, that the average Hindu is easily led, they can then be coerced with litttle compulsion to do the unthinkable! Thankfully the Goan Hindus know better, alas it appears that the Govt. is playing this card for the immigrant populace or for the whole population of India. The average Goan Hindu is better than average non-Goan Hindu? What card are we playing here? Cheers, Santosh RESPONSE: Are you by any chance Halur ? Yes or NO It is to do with demography and nothing to do with playing a slant card. It is known all over India that the Bengalis are the most ardent sports fans in the whole of India. Similarly it is also known the Mumbai is the Financial capital of India and even though the Shiv Senna have changed the name of the city to Mumbai the Bombay Stock exchange still rules O.K. Similarly I am of the mindset that Goan Hindus would be more tolerant than from some other parts of India - Gujarat springs readily to mind. To make a comparison, the rest of the U.K. is more tolerant of religions than the bigotry shown in Northern Ireland. Try as we may to say there is no difference, the stark reality is that there is. Perhaps I am wrong having not been born in Goa and having not lived in India. Since you are the self proclaimed ruler of Chimbel, I will bow to your superior knowledge, if you can categorically inform me that all Christians, Jews, Muslims are of the same Hue vis a vis their own. ? That in effect all Hindus are of the same mindset (in the same vein as those who committed atrocities in Gujarat). If this is the case than God spare the Christian Goans in Goa. Happy New You and to Halur and to all Goanetters. Cheers, Gabe. P.S. The British as a whole have a different mindset as far as disasters are concerened - the people of this Country have now coughed up 50 million Pounds matching the Biritish Govt's. aid. This amount will surely go higher, taking into account that almost 1/3 more will be offered through the tax incentive if tax payers have opted to have the tax portion redeemed.
Re: [Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT
The only reason tourists feel free in Goa is because the Goan mentality is free almost at par with theirs --- jerry fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Almost on par,eh? Perhaps a little self-esteem vis-a-vis foreigners might help? __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
[Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT
hello Goanetters Coming to think about it, I wonder, why is it that Goa is different from the rest of India? What is it that makes Goans different from the Indians? Arent we Indians? What is it that portrays Goans in the international community as non Indians? What is it that brings hoards of International Tourists to Goa, and they immediately fall in love with it? Was it the International film festival that brought more tourists this season, or was it the exposition of St Francis Xavier? The reason I could think of why Goa is so different was because of the infusions of cultures brought in by the Portuguese and other eras. But mostly by the Portuguese. The only reason tourists feel free in Goa is because the Goan mentality is free almost at par with theirs,(although gradually changing with more and more residences taken by non-Goans in Goa), again an European mentality that too due to the Portuguese. People from all walks come to Goa to see the carnival which is promoted by government which again is a culture brought by Portuguese. The way of dressing, which is a rarity in other parts of India, and that is not only by the Christians, but all faiths again the Portuguese. Drinking Alcohol, its rare to find a Goan drink bottoms up. He will drink and talk and than drink and talk etc (when in a group) unlike what one sees in other places. (unfortunately Goans are portrayed as drunks in Hindi movies). Well there are lots of things that are different, one only has to see without malice. And of course as someone mentioned uniform law. What is it that brought more income for Goa all the years, the Mining Industry or the Tourism industry? Or is there some other source? Goa earlier when it was a union territory, provided money to the center, and the center than gave pea nuts for Goa, but now being a state where is all the money going? Goas money helped others to prosper, and now Goa is helping others to prosper Thanks to our able leaders who are only interested in vote banks than the prosperity of the Goans. We should remember that Goa although was ruled by various kings earlier, the last one to rule was Portugal. How it ruled Goa, only history can tell us but not a falsified history. As falsified history can fool some, but not all. There are many who know the history of Goa better than the ones who rule. BJP has changed the history of India, and now BJP is trying its best to do so with Goa. What we are cannot be changed. We may have belonged to some other religion earlier, which cannot be altered. Goa has lived with it from 1961, and it will live with it for years to come. The leaders should remember that Goa is what Goa is and creating divisions will not alter anything. It has taken almost 400 years for the mentality of Goans to be moulded he way it is, and the BJP is planning to change it by it 5rs or 10yrs or more rule? Is it possible? My last suggestion if possible is for our able goanet historians to dissect the VCD that is in circulation and write all its drawbacks, where by thru emails we can send it to every known Goan who can read and understand it. As maybe the newspapers might not print it as they may fear the CMs dictates. Cheers Jerry Fernandes _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
[Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT
Hello Gabe, Thanks for the article, exactly what I was planning too, but couldnt get the right words. It brought a tear to my eyes. Thanks once again and thanks for the wonderful articles you write. Jerry Fernandes From: Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 21:57:36 - Subject: [Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS Reply-To: goanet@goanet.org From: Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wrote:- To: goanet@goanet.org Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 11:51 AM Subject: [Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS I would like to respectfully disagree with the tone of the editorial in Gomantak Times. History has to be narrated the way it is, and it should not be falsified because some group may find it uncomfortable. The atrocities committed by the Portuguese in Goa, and many other places in the world, did happen. Not talking about them in fact makes things worse as far as the memory of the sufferers is concerned. In the editorial, a question is posed as follows: Are scenes of Nazi brutality shown to young Jews? The answer is: No, it is shown not only to the young Jews, but also to all the people, Jews and non-Jews, old and young. And there is a huge holocaust museum where people can see the brutality. RESPONSE: Dear Sachin Phadte, I am not in Goa and have not seen the VCD nor had an expose about it. From what I can garner, it is not the fact that the Portuguese may have butchered our fore parents. It is about the fact that this VCD is clearly out to create a communal divide! I do not know, which Religion you espouse to but if you are a Hindu and a similar VCD was made which shows that the Hindus created a lot of atrocities - ala Gujerat, I am sure you would not want to be associated with this extremity! If the Christians were a majority and we prepetrated the same sort of proprganda on you, the whole lot of you would be outraged. It abhors us all, if we are to believe that we (Christian Goans) were converted at the point of the sword. So what would you have us do? We should all renounce Christianity and return to the Mother faith - Hinduism - and may be some of us were Muslims before that and some, from other Religions before Hinduism took hold of Goa. Please give us guidance on what you expect Christian Goans to do - just accept the VCD and a few days, weeks, months or years later, we can be brought to accept the yoke or taken to the slaughter house? Cheers, Gabe. _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
[Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS
I think Gabe misses the point that I am making and that is why he says: Please give us guidance on what you expect Christian Goans to do - just accept the VCD and a few days, weeks, months or years later, we can be brought to accept the yoke or taken to the slaughter house? Nowhere in my message have I even given a hint that I want to take the Christian Goans to be taken to slaughter house. The editorial in Goa is titled: A Civilized Society Does Not Reopen Wounds. The issue is whether a civilised society should change its history because some may feel hurt with the truth. And I said that the editorial does not give any indication that facts have been wrongly stated. Gabe says: I do not know, which Religion you espouse to but if you are a Hindu and a similar VCD was made which shows that the Hindus created a lot of atrocities - ala Gujarat, I am sure you would not want to be associated with this extremity! And this is exactly the point. I denounce the atrocities committed against the Muslims in Gujarat. Just as I denounce the burning of the Hindus in Godhra. And this I do not because I am a Hindu, but because I am a human being. I would like to end this message form quoting what Halur had written in context of this thread. Hindus are not total idiots, inspite of what you may think. They can distinguish between cruelty committed by Portuguese conquerors hundreds of years ago, with the bible in one hand and the sword in the other, and the present day catholic inhabitants. Sachin Phadte _ Don't know where to look for your life partner? http://www.bharatmatrimony.com/cgi-bin/bmclicks1.cgi?74 Trust BharatMatrimony.com
[Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS
From: Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wrote:- To: goanet@goanet.org Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 11:51 AM Subject: [Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS I would like to respectfully disagree with the tone of the editorial in Gomantak Times. History has to be narrated the way it is, and it should not be falsified because some group may find it uncomfortable. The atrocities committed by the Portuguese in Goa, and many other places in the world, did happen. Not talking about them in fact makes things worse as far as the memory of the sufferers is concerned. In the editorial, a question is posed as follows: Are scenes of Nazi brutality shown to young Jews? The answer is: No, it is shown not only to the young Jews, but also to all the people, Jews and non-Jews, old and young. And there is a huge holocaust museum where people can see the brutality. RESPONSE: Dear Sachin Phadte, I am not in Goa and have not seen the VCD nor had an expose about it. From what I can garner, it is not the fact that the Portuguese may have butchered our fore parents. It is about the fact that this VCD is clearly out to create a communal divide! I do not know, which Religion you espouse to but if you are a Hindu and a similar VCD was made which shows that the Hindus created a lot of atrocities - ala Gujerat, I am sure you would not want to be associated with this extremity! If the Christians were a majority and we prepetrated the same sort of proprganda on you, the whole lot of you would be outraged. It abhors us all, if we are to believe that we (Christian Goans) were converted at the point of the sword. So what would you have us do? We should all renounce Christianity and return to the Mother faith - Hinduism - and may be some of us were Muslims before that and some, from other Religions before Hinduism took hold of Goa. Please give us guidance on what you expect Christian Goans to do - just accept the VCD and a few days, weeks, months or years later, we can be brought to accept the yoke or taken to the slaughter house? Cheers, Gabe.
[Goanet]A civilized society does not reopen wounds
I havent seen the film myself, so can't comment on the scenes depicted in the film, but tell me what is the intent of the RSS guys in making this film? Dont tell me that they dont have a saffornizing agenda? regards, Samir Kelekar I would like to respectfully disagree with the tone of the editorial in Gomantak Times. History has to be narrated the way it is, and it should not be falsified because some group may find it uncomfortable. The atrocities committed by the Portuguese in Goa, and many other places in the world, did happen. Not talking about them in fact makes things worse as far as the memory of the sufferers is concerned. In the editorial, a question is posed as follows: Are scenes of Nazi brutality shown to young Jews? The answer is: No, it is shown not only to the young Jews, but also to all the people, Jews and non-Jews, old and young. And there is a huge holocaust museum where people can see the brutality. And the ones who are in the forefront of this effort of not forgetting are the descendants of the very people who indulged in the brutality - the Germans. And they do so because it is their way of showing that they distance away from the actions of their ancestors. Some time ago, a member on this list had posted that the BJP in Goa is asking for the return of the temple sites which were forcibly converted to churches. When I asked when this demand was made, the member did not respond - Fred, after some five days, said that perhaps it was a tounge-in-cheek statement. I found this strange. The discussion also involved in denial that temples were destroyed. To the credit of many Christians on this list, they provided the list of such destructions. Even then, those who were denying, did not accept the information provided as facts. The Pope has rightly apologised to the indigenous people in the Americas for the atrocities committed against them in the name of Christianity. The Pope has also rightly apologised to the non-Catholics for the atrocities committed against them in the name of the Roman Catholic Church. Such apologies can happen only when it is accepted that the events did happen. Many in Japan did not want to teach their children about the atrocities committed by their army during the Second World War. The Chinese and the Koreans are upset about this. And every time a Japanese leader visits China and Korea, he has to make a formal apology for the events. In fact, normal diplomatic relationship between China and Japan happened when Japan made a formal apology. If there was no attempt to denial in the beginning, I do not think that the Japanese leaders would have needed to make the apology time and time again. I know my Christian friends do not even mildly approve the atrocities. After all their ancestors suffered as much as my ancestors who did not convert. If there are facts in the video, it should be definitely deleted. I myself have not seen it. However, from the tone of the editorial, it would appear to me that the facts are correct. Sachin Phadte. _ Citibank Suvidha account at No Minimum Balance! http://creative.mediaturf.net/creatives/suvidha/suvidha_hmtagoffline_dec04.htm Apply get FREE watch!
[Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS
I would like to respectfully disagree with the tone of the editorial in Gomantak Times. History has to be narrated the way it is, and it should not be falsified because some group may find it uncomfortable. The atrocities committed by the Portuguese in Goa, and many other places in the world, did happen. Not talking about them in fact makes things worse as far as the memory of the sufferers is concerned. In the editorial, a question is posed as follows: Are scenes of Nazi brutality shown to young Jews? The answer is: No, it is shown not only to the young Jews, but also to all the people, Jews and non-Jews, old and young. And there is a huge holocaust museum where people can see the brutality. And the ones who are in the forefront of this effort of not forgetting are the descendants of the very people who indulged in the brutality - the Germans. And they do so because it is their way of showing that they distance away from the actions of their ancestors. Some time ago, a member on this list had posted that the BJP in Goa is asking for the return of the temple sites which were forcibly converted to churches. When I asked when this demand was made, the member did not respond - Fred, after some five days, said that perhaps it was a tounge-in-cheek statement. I found this strange. The discussion also involved in denial that temples were destroyed. To the credit of many Christians on this list, they provided the list of such destructions. Even then, those who were denying, did not accept the information provided as facts. The Pope has rightly apologised to the indigenous people in the Americas for the atrocities committed against them in the name of Christianity. The Pope has also rightly apologised to the non-Catholics for the atrocities committed against them in the name of the Roman Catholic Church. Such apologies can happen only when it is accepted that the events did happen. Many in Japan did not want to teach their children about the atrocities committed by their army during the Second World War. The Chinese and the Koreans are upset about this. And every time a Japanese leader visits China and Korea, he has to make a formal apology for the events. In fact, normal diplomatic relationship between China and Japan happened when Japan made a formal apology. If there was no attempt to denial in the beginning, I do not think that the Japanese leaders would have needed to make the apology time and time again. I know my Christian friends do not even mildly approve the atrocities. After all their ancestors suffered as much as my ancestors who did not convert. If there are facts in the video, it should be definitely deleted. I myself have not seen it. However, from the tone of the editorial, it would appear to me that the facts are correct. Sachin Phadte. _ Citibank Suvidha account at No Minimum Balance! http://creative.mediaturf.net/creatives/suvidha/suvidha_hmtagoffline_dec04.htm Apply get FREE watch!
[Goanet]A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS - A GT REPORT COMMENTS
A CIVILIZED SOCIETY DOES NOT REOPEN WOUNDS. Sujay Gupta- Editor Gomantak Times. 25 December 2004 Dear Readers, When trouble is created by a misguided mind, there is still hope. But when mischief is created by a devious mind, there is inevitable hell. The act of forcing a communally charged, gory VCD supposedly on Goa's freedom struggle, down the throats of children, seeks to divide, destroy and decimate young minds. This isn't an educational exercise. This is a stab into the ribs of secular polity of Goa. The fact that this exercise was inspired (as mentioned in the credits of the film) by the Chief Minister, who is also the Education Minister and orchestrated by the Education department, is scary. Scary: because people in power are expected to be responsible. Though there have been instances when such pretences of responsibility have been done away with, the present ploy of poisoning minds and hearts breaks all limits of civility and common sense. Please note that the issue here is not whether every frame, word or shot in the film confirms to history. That is debatable though there is considered and overwhelming opinion that history has not only been tampered but also butchered. But that is not the point. Why has brutality been fleshed out, spiced up marinated and thrown into the faces of children? Are scenes of Nazi brutality shown to young Jews? Are the barbaric tortures of the apartheid regime in the Natal province shown to kids in the schools of South Africa? Are the post partition riots filmed and served as a staple diet to young children for customary viewing in schools in India? They are not. If this government still needs to know why they are not, here is the answer. These events are not shown because a civilized world does not open wounds. Because time is a healer and no civil human leadership traverses back in time to spread hurt and anguish. Just imagine what this film does to a young mind. A child, without even grasping the full facts of history sees priests in black hoods, looking like monsters murdering and raping. He sees dead bodies, he sees blood, and he sees women getting their clothes ripped off. Forget history. This is fear being drilled. If children in Goa become mental wrecks, this government will be solely responsible. We waited till we actually said this. But scores of calls, mails and messages proved that Goan parents cutting across religious lines are scared and worried. One of them, incidentally a Hindu said. When I was growing up, I didn't even realize whether my friends in class were Hindus and Christians. Now my daughter who is old enough to read papers asks if Christians are bad. Is this a legacy you would like to leave behind Mr. Chief Minister? When instead of love and trust, hatred blooms, when friendship gives way to fear. Any government must learn to respect public opinion. This is not the case of one section of the society or media being critical or reactionary. School principals, common folks, historians, poets and most importantly parents have been hurt by this cultural violence. From the Governor to the gas station attendant, all have been shocked both at the film and the manner in which it was forced to be shown. If forcible conversion needs to be condemned, then this forcible indoctrination of young minds needs to be despised, challenged and attacked in no uncertain terms. If a film on the freedom struggle had to be made and shown, why was it stealthily and slyly sneaked into schools without giving Males, ministers and a broad based political spectrum to view it? We know that the counter argument to this will be that it was shown on Doordarshan a year ago. But how many people saw it? And shouldn't the government have had the sensitivity to realize that a film fit for Doordarshan need not be fit for young children who are almost raw? Moreover, the length of the film has changed, perhaps some of the contents. Why, even people in the script committee of the original film were shown the VCD version and were calling up our offices to ask for a copy of the CD. What a shame. But these incidents may be shocking, but not surprising. There is very little opposition to these incidents. When the leader of the Congress Legislature Party, Pratap Singh Rane remains mum as always and the Tourism Minister who prides himself for calling a spade a spade remains suspiciously silent, where is the hope? We are singling out Matany Saldanha since he is known to be firebrand and we know he is hurt. If he has the guts, ask him to either condemn this act or come out openly saying that the film is justified and necessary. It is high time Goa is freed from fence sitters like Rane and Matany Saldanha tostart with. Of course, the larger issue of how to respond to cultural atrocities should be dealt with by the people of Goa because politicians have failed. The Congress and the clergy have reacted strongly but that isn't enough. Let the people of Goa be the judge as
