[Goanet]Re: Caste
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## The discussion on caste has been really stimulating. Viviana's comments reminded me of something the great Tariq Ali (of Paris 1968 fame) had said when in 1985 he addressed the students and faculty at TISS where I was studying in Bombay. He was asked what had struck him most about social reality in India. To paraphrase roughly, he said that the all-pervasive caste system was probably the feature that struck (and appalled) him the most. He made it a point to clarify that in India caste cut across all communities, Hindus, Muslims, Catholics, Sikhs etc., with Buddhists being probably the only exception (probably because most Buddhists are dalits). Whatever else people may or may not have carried over with them from Hinduism, they all carried along caste: lock, stock and barrel. Which is crazy when you come to think of it, since Sikhism in particular was an explicit attempt to fight the caste system, and caste would be against basic tenets of Christianity and Islam. About Fred's comments, I heartily agree. We all too easily say that caste doesn't matter to us, and in most cases we're speaking the truth, but to believe that institutionalised social prejudice and discrimination is the sum of individual opinions is to fall into the trap of psychologism, which is a complete fallacy. Again in college, all of us used to feel that we are "above" caste and would never discriminate, until one of our teachers told us to pay attention and observe that the dalit students sit separately for food in the mess, and that few other students have much interaction with them. Nobody had any 'conscious' discrimination against them, the reason for not interacting much was given as them being "different" (with more impolite words were used to describe the difference). So whether we have any conscious caste feeling or not, it is an all-pervasive feature of Indian society, and we need to realise that we inevitably discriminate, because our society is so structured as to systematically discriminate against 'lower' castes. It is only when we realise this that we can begin to take corrective steps at our own individual level. And finally, amen to Rico's words: "who believe such problems won't go away simply by pushing it under the carpet" Viviana: Judging from the matrimonial ads in Goan newspapers Caste is still a major issue even among Catholics. Among my contemporaries this is not an issue, or at least never a subject of discussion. I dont know what caste any of my friends are, and I dont care, and neither do they. Among Catholics at least there should be no castes. When a Hindu becomes a Moslem, the person no longer has a caste. Why did the Catholicism allow the caste system to continue ? Fred: A lot of Catholics simply (i) don't understand caste or (ii) pretend it doesn't exist. This helps to build smoke-screens that helps a better understanding of why Goa and Goans work (or don't work) the way they do. "Those born in the so-called 'upper' castes can pretend that caste doesn't exist. But if anyone was born as a Dalit (the worst off) he would be hit by the reality of caste before he was four years old," Sainath said. > A lifetime of experience has taught me that no matter how hard I try in > personal arguments, I can never persuade a person who believes in caste > not to believe in caste. Looks like a slight blurring of issues due to the language chosen. We need to distinguish between someone subscribing to caste-based notions of superiority/hierarchy, and those (like Cornel and myself) who believe such problems won't go away simply by pushing it under the carpet.
[Goanet]Re: Caste
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Basilio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: A cursory glance at empirical data will show, to any dispassionate student of caste problem, that there is no data or demonstrable evidence to perpetuate the accusation that the Church remains complicit in the caste business. There is quite a lot of evidence of exactly that available. For one thing, look at the dismal figures of dalit Christian clergy in India (as compared to their ratio in the Christian population). There have been a number of agitations within the Christian (all sects) community seeking redressal of this, but not much progress has taken place. It is indisputable that the Church, i.e. individuals in the hierarchy of the Church (for a thoughtful and dispassionate discussion this is an important distinction between the hierarchy of the church and the church) has pandered to caste and casteism. The distinction drawn between the Church (the institution), and the 'hierarchy of the church' is specious. The way an institution operates in the real world is determined to quite an extent by its hierarchy, and as long as these hierarchies cling to their entrenched privileges, we are not going to see much progress. Maybe some reservation for dalit clergy at all levels of the church hierarchy would help? Or, rather than reservation, affirmative action along the lines of the US?
[Goanet]RE: Caste
I would like to send you the following article from the U.S Library of Congress Quote Although many other nations are characterized by social inequality, perhaps nowhere else in the world has inequality been so elaborately constructed as in the Indian institution of caste. Caste has long existed in India, but in the modern period it has been severely criticized by both Indian and foreign observers. Although some educated Indians tell non-Indians that caste has been abolished or that "no one pays attention to caste anymore," such statements do not reflect reality. Caste has undergone significant change since independence, but it still involves hundreds of millions of people. In its preamble, India's constitution forbids negative public discrimination on the basis of caste. However, caste ranking and caste-based interaction have occurred for centuries and will continue to do so well into the foreseeable future, more in the countryside than in urban settings and more in the realms of kinship and marriage than in less personal interactions. Castes are ranked, named, endogamous (in-marrying) groups, membership in which is achieved by birth. There are thousands of castes and subcastes in India, and these large kinship-based groups are fundamental to South Asian social structure. Each caste is part of a locally based system of interde-pendence with other groups, involving occupational specialization, and is linked in complex ways with networks that stretch across regions and throughout the nation. The word caste derives from the Portuguese casta , meaning breed, race, or kind. Among the Indian terms that are sometimes translated as caste are varna (see Glossary), jati (see Glossary), jat , biradri , and samaj . All of these terms refer to ranked groups of various sizes and breadth. Varna , or color, actually refers to large divisions that include various castes; the other terms include castes and subdivisions of castes sometimes called subcastes. Many castes are traditionally associated with an occupation, such as high-ranking Brahmans; middle-ranking farmer and artisan groups, such as potters, barbers, and carpenters; and very low-ranking "Untouchable" leatherworkers, butchers, launderers, and latrine cleaners. There is some correlation between ritual rank on the caste hierarchy and economic prosperity. Members of higher-ranking castes tend, on the whole, to be more prosperous than members of lower-ranking castes. Many lower-caste people live in conditions of great poverty and social disadvantage. According to the Rig Veda, sacred texts that date back to oral traditions of more than 3,000 years ago, progenitors of the four ranked varna groups sprang from various parts of the body of the primordial man, which Brahma created from clay (see The Vedas and Polytheism, ch. 3). Each group had a function in sustaining the life of society--the social body. Brahmans, or priests, were created from the mouth. They were to provide for the intellectual and spiritual needs of the community. Kshatriyas, warriors and rulers, were derived from the arms. Their role was to rule and to protect others. Vaishyas--landowners and merchants--sprang from the thighs, and were entrusted with the care of commerce and agriculture. Shudras--artisans and servants--came from the feet. Their task was to perform all manual labor. Later conceptualized was a fifth category, "Untouchable" menials, relegated to carrying out very menial and polluting work related to bodily decay and dirt. Since 1935 "Untouchables" have been known as Scheduled Castes, referring to their listing on government rosters, or schedules. They are also often called by Mohandas Karamchand (Mahatma) Gandhi's term Harijans, or "Children of God." Although the term Untouchable appears in literature produced by these low-ranking castes, in the 1990s, many politically conscious members of these groups prefer to refer to themselves as Dalit (see Glossary), a Hindi word meaning oppressed or downtrodden. According to the 1991 census, there were 138 million Scheduled Caste members in India, approximately 16 percent of the total population. The first four varnas apparently existed in the ancient Aryan society of northern India. Some historians say that these categories were originally somewhat fluid functional groups, not castes. A greater degree of fixity gradually developed, resulting in the complex ranking systems of medieval India that essentially continue in the late twentieth century. Although a varna is not a caste, when directly asked for their caste affiliation, particularly when the questioner is a Westerner, many Indians will reply with a varna name. Pressed further, they may respond with a much more specific name of a caste, or jati , which falls within that varna . For example, a Brahman may specify that he is a member of a named caste group, such as a Jijotiya Brahman, or a Smartha Brahman, and so on. Within such castes, people may further belong to smaller subcaste
[Goanet]re: caste
Yesterday I was going through Frank Simoes's book, Goa, formerly released as Glad Seasons in Goa, and the chapter I read, Radhika's Genealogy Class, he pokes fun at himself, giving twist to the abbreviation, OBC. He tells his dauther, Radhika, it meansOpulent Brahmin Class or Opulent Other Class (I forget while writing). He also makes funny remarks on his wife, a Hindu. As many may be aware, Simoes's wrote satire, besides his regular job as copywrite at his own company. Eugene Correia Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[Goanet]Re: Caste adverts
> GL wrote: Fred's and other's caste-beef appears to be not for caste > but "disparity" in society. This issue of disparity is and will > always be there Dear GL: Are you deliberately/unintentionally misquoting me, or have I expressed myself so poorly, that I've confused my stand over the many posts made on this subject? My problem here is not with "disparity" but with a near-racist system, that keeps you trapped in a water-tight container for life and across generations, depending on accidents of birth. It determines where the glass ceiling blocks you still in contemporary Goa. It sometimes determines whom you marry, who votes (or doesn't) vote for your, creates powerful and distorting chains-of-influence that ruins any possibility of economic efficiency, and causes a whole set of market imperfections which should be unacceptable even in a capitalist conception of the world. No wonder the Bahujans in the MGP were out to usher in the capitalist revolution in the 'sixties, ably supported by national and international forces. It also makes sense, in hindsight, to see some politicians attempt to dismantal Goa's semi-feudalism, even if some influential forces might have a different conception of things. Above all, it leaves large sections of people carrying scars for life, based on perceived (and, as George points out, often invalid and unscientific) feelings of superiority and inferiority. > That is what journalists should work and write about ... role models > and sucess stories rather than harping on the same old...same old ... > "biases". My profession doesn't proscribe from debating issues which I choose to; on the contrary. Infact, I am suffering from an acute case of doctoritis unsolicitis adviciticus -- getting unsolicited advice from doctors telling us journalists how we should be conducting our work and profession. FN
[Goanet]Re: Caste System
...Clinton wrote Hello, I read your advert on cybermatrimonials and have the following to say to you: Shame on you! It's a shame that you believe in caste in this day and age. I know not what my caste is and am not interested in learning about that either. It is only small- minded people that believe in caste. I do hope others also inform you that you are misguided in your beliefs. Clinton.. Afra Says: Are you going to marry that girl? Then mind your own business. Find other topic to talk about. Don't play the same old record, shame on YOU. People are entitled to their belief in Religion and Caste Systems. Choice of schools, and choice of Partners too. Catholics like the Vatican are in the habit of dictating to people. Afra. (London)
[Goanet]Re: Caste adverts.
Viviana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: By the way, a few months ago I asked if anyone on the list had married outside of his/her caste and received no response. Viviana (without caste!) I would have liked to have responded to your query but did not quite know how. Since I have never believed in caste, I had to believe that anybody I married was essentially casteless; the question of whethere I had married outside my caste therefore simply did not arise. My parents did not believe in caste, either, and I learnt from their example; I do not believe a person's caste ever being discussed by the family. Once, indeed, when I was in college, I remember my favourite aunt came over to our house to complain to my mother that I was going out with a fellow student who "was not of our caste"; my mother invited my aunt to leave right away. She was so incensed that when my mother died a few years later, she did not come to the house; obviously, caste was a matter of great and overriding importance in her personal scheme of things. Nevertheless, in time she and I managed to maintain good relations. Years later, I fell in love and married. In the 51 years that have elapsed, my wife and I have never discussed anybody's caste at our table (or anywhere else, for that matter). Yet, when we visit friends and neighbours and relatives in Goa, and somebody's name comes up, somebody else will immediately say, "Oh, he is ", but more often than not it is said not as a putdown, but as a matter of fact. My wife and I did come across an instance of caste prejudice soon after we were married in Bombay. A group of young friends were singing mandos in our flat in Byculla when another of our friends came in, took me aside, and objected to the fact that non-Brahmins were singing mandos that should only be sung by Brahmins! I promptly asked him to leave. A question that still baffles me: How on earth did he figure out that the singers were non-Brahmins, when he did not know them at all, and I, who knew them well, had not bothered to find out? And why did his view of caste privilege extend to the singing of songs, that should belong to everybody? Fortunately, that friendship, too, survived that episode. Perhaps the lesson here is that prejudice is everywhere, and one way to combat it is in the way we lead our own lives. My father taught me, when I was still a young man, to believe in myself: "Believe that no man is your superior" was more or less how he put it. I turned it around to also mean, "No man is my inferior, either." That attitude makes a world of difference in how we deal with the human beings around us. Best regards, Victor Rangel-Ribeiro, Porvorim and New Jersey
[Goanet]Re: Caste adverts.
"CASTE" in India and particularly in Goa is a curse to humanity. In North America, this word has to be exemplified. Religion is a way of life and private to each person and should be respected by all. No missionaries - no conversion. The religion and if you may say CASTE is "human" - human religion and human caste. Get married to one you love and compatible. Not because she is Salgaonkar's or Dempe's or Sequeira's daughter. mkapil
RE: [Goanet]Re: Caste adverts
Fred, No one intends to interfere with your profession and nobody can stop your freedom of writing. CAN YOU PLEASE STOP POSTING GOAN ROMAN CATHOLICS SO-CALLED CASTE BASED MATRIMONIAL ADS? THIS NUISANCE HAS TO BE STOPPED. Regards, Cip UK -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Frederick Noronha (FN) Sent: 09 July 2005 20:24 To: goanet@goanet.org Subject: [Goanet]Re: Caste adverts > GL wrote: Fred's and other's caste-beef appears to be not for caste > but "disparity" in society. This issue of disparity is and will > always be there Dear GL: Are you deliberately/unintentionally misquoting me, or have I expressed myself so poorly, that I've confused my stand over the many posts made on this subject? My problem here is not with "disparity" but with a near-racist system, that keeps you trapped in a water-tight container for life and across generations, depending on accidents of birth. It determines where the glass ceiling blocks you still in contemporary Goa. It sometimes determines whom you marry, who votes (or doesn't) vote for your, creates powerful and distorting chains-of-influence that ruins any possibility of economic efficiency, and causes a whole set of market imperfections which should be unacceptable even in a capitalist conception of the world. No wonder the Bahujans in the MGP were out to usher in the capitalist revolution in the 'sixties, ably supported by national and international forces. It also makes sense, in hindsight, to see some politicians attempt to dismantal Goa's semi-feudalism, even if some influential forces might have a different conception of things. Above all, it leaves large sections of people carrying scars for life, based on perceived (and, as George points out, often invalid and unscientific) feelings of superiority and inferiority. > That is what journalists should work and write about ... role models > and sucess stories rather than harping on the same old...same old ... > "biases". My profession doesn't proscribe from debating issues which I choose to; on the contrary. Infact, I am suffering from an acute case of doctoritis unsolicitis adviciticus -- getting unsolicited advice from doctors telling us journalists how we should be conducting our work and profession. FN
RE: [Goanet]Re: Caste adverts
Well said Fred, once again! I would have written and expressed likewise; and have said so, with another headline. Cheers. Nasci Caldeira Mlbourne. From: "Frederick Noronha (FN)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]Re: Caste adverts Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 00:53:52 +0530 Dear GL: Are you deliberately/unintentionally misquoting me, or have I expressed myself so poorly, that I've confused my stand over the many posts made on this subject? My problem here is not with "disparity" but with a near-racist system, that keeps you trapped in a water-tight container for life and across generations, depending on accidents of birth. It determines where the glass ceiling blocks you still in contemporary Goa. It sometimes determines whom you marry, who votes (or doesn't) vote for your, creates powerful and distorting chains-of-influence that ruins any possibility of economic efficiency, and causes a whole set of market imperfections which should be unacceptable even in a capitalist conception of the world. No wonder the Bahujans in the MGP were out to usher in the capitalist revolution in the 'sixties, ably supported by national and international forces. It also makes sense, in hindsight, to see some politicians attempt to dismantal Goa's semi-feudalism, even if some influential forces might have a different conception of things. Above all, it leaves large sections of people carrying scars for life, based on perceived (and, as George points out, often invalid and unscientific) feelings of superiority and inferiority. FN
Re: [Goanet]Re: Caste adverts.
Hi Victor - thank you for your very interesting response. I'd like to mention that I did receive a response to my original question from Cecil Pinto, but somehow missed reading it. So I did get at least one response shortly after posing the question. Viviana Victor Rangel-Ribeiro wrote: Viviana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: By the way, a few months ago I asked if anyone on the list had married outside of his/her caste and received no response. Viviana (without caste!) I would have liked to have responded to your query but did not quite know how.
[Goanet]Re: Caste system in Goa
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Hi I strongly support Mario Goveia opinion about caste system in Goa It is a very deep conditioning ingrained in minds of some Goans. How superficial their thinking is I know how the caste system is so dominant in marriages. I have a experience of my cousin who married outside the caste and how badly she was treated even though the boy was highly educated and cultured.Also the Taunts Comments and Gossip which are passed when a couple does not get married according to a particular caste..Innocent children are subject to this discrimination I hope one day this social stigma will dissappear. And human"s will be judged according to what they are rather than their caste Even among highly educated Goans I really feel sorry they will pass comments about your caste It really makes me feel sorry and I feel so bad for these people . As they are so superficial One of the most imp principle in any religion is compassion and love. I some times wonder where it is gone in this 2004 Century. I feel we in Goa are still stuck in the 12 th Century and have not grown in this era of Science and Technologyand Research.If we are going to believe in all these man made system.I strongly advice all our Goan brothers and Sister to go in them selves do some meditation and do not allow this deep conditioning to come in the way of judging other Rather go in a open mind Recognise the person for their talents. Sincely Antonio
[Goanet]Re: Caste... and all that
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## In a message dated 10/19/2004 4:04:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] quotes a sentence from my post: > A lifetime of experience has taught me that no matter how hard I try in > personal arguments, I can never persuade a person who believes in caste > not to believe in caste. And Fred comments on it as follows: Looks like a slight blurring of issues due to the language chosen. We need to distinguish between someone subscribing to caste-based notions of superiority/hierarchy, and those (like Cornel and myself) who believe such problems won't go away simply by pushing it under the carpet. Unfortunately, Fred omitted my follow-up sentence. Far from pushing caste under the rug, I write about it in my fiction. I believe I can more readily influence minds through my fiction writing---as in my novel, Tivolem, that deals with caste, prejudice, gossip, and the evil eye, among other issues--- than through personal argument and confrontation. The written word can be a powerful tool, and I will continue to use it. Regards, Victor
[Goanet]Re: Caste in East Africa
Hi Cornel & Tony: Thanks for the very informative posts. I notice many ex-East Africans Goans write elegantly, your schools taught well. Stylistically, you have much in common - including Gabe, Milton, Eddie Fernandes. I am curious now about the caste issue in Goan Associations in other migrant populations - Goans in Portugal, North America, Australia. Sometimes people trade one prejudice for another. So if they gave up a caste prejudice, have they taken on another? In the USA, the Goans I have met do not carry their caste credentials openly. However, I wonder sometimes if they look at African-Americans as favorably as they do others. Regards, George
[Goanet]Re: Caste, Conversion ani Confusao
Goan Catholics & non twice-born Hindus Antonio Menezes ( January 27, 2005) Sachin Phadte (jan 27, 2005) Gilbert Lawrence responds: (Jan 28, 2005) = Dear Gilbertbab, It is interesting to review your post visavis that from Sachin. It is absolutely feasable (IS IT NOT) that the lower "castes" converted to Christianity to get away from the generation to generation subjugation by the higher "castes" ? That after all is also the reason for them to convert from Hinduism to Buddhism, Sikhism and Islam. The horrible "Caste" based descrimination, and the flight of the oppressed is well known. That does not mean that conversions to Islam and Christianity were ALL voluntary. That, they were not. But then, one also has to ask WHAT happened to the Buddhists who were so powerful and numerous during the days of Ashoka. Selective viewing of history is convenient, but nada mais. Now, as far as TB Cunha's alleged article is concerned, I will hold my judgement on that. It is my opinion that non-practising Catholics have a different view of events from Catholics-were-never-wrong Catholics. (The same for Hindus,Jews and Muslims) I submit that one has to review available historical documents, place them in context of the times, and cross reference them with other parameters like ...demographics, land ownership etc. The following posting from 17 months ago - makes interesting reading have fun jc = Godfrey Gonsalves (Sept21, 2003) Politicians in Goa and perhaps in India as well, have sought to polarise the Goan society (especially during the uprising of the Goan masses for official language recognition to Konkani in the late eighties) and till this day by preaching to the non Brahmin Hindus (Bahujan Samaj) mostly in the Novas Conquistas (New Conquests) about the atrocities committed on our Hindu bretheren during the infamous INQUISITION . Even a FILM promoted by the present coalition dispensation in power led by the right-wing Hindu fundamentalist and fascist party have documented a film showing excerpts of the freedom struggle with atrocities committed on those in the Novas Conquistas. Entire Godfry Gonsalves post at http://www.colaco.net/1/InquiForeword.htm (look at the last third of the page)
[Goanet]Re: Caste and Gender Preference
--- Cecil Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ... being straight I am a great supporter of gay and lesbian rights. But the > quandary I > face is that by identifying myself as being straight am I in some way > suggesting I am > 'superior' to someone who is gay? Am I being condescending in my approach? > On the other hand if I don't clearly indicate my gender preference will my > 'voice' be less convincing as I am not stating my personal preference in > these matters? Cecil and others There appear at least two schools of political philosophical thought in these matters. The first, is 'politics of envy' which suggests that those who fight for justice should disclose their own background so others can see if they are motivated by envy. This theory is often used by those in power or who like the status quo to question the motives of those who oppose them. We have seen this when the rich oppose tax increases by saying "it's them envious poor folks who want our money". In the caste situation, Teotonio and others asked the anti-casteists to disclose their caste so one can tell if they were really the so-called "low-castes" and therefore opposed (were envious of) the so-called "high-castes". This is somewhat similar to the theory in literary criticism which suggests it is important to know the author's background to see where he/she is coming from, which presumably helps to better understand the literary work. The 'politics of justice' which I favor is Rawlsian (as in the late John Rawls who used to teach at Harvard). It suggests that those who fight justice do so because that is what the principles of justice require. I am very much simplifying his view here and will ignore the justification of how he got there - the Original Position and Veil of Ignorance. It pays no attention to who is fighting for justice but solely to the issue. Men can fight sexism, etc. We have seen in recent times, some white people in the USA oppose racism as much as African-Americans do. Having chosen a principle of justice (discrimination is wrong), they stand for it regardless of whether they are white, black, men, women, gay, straight, etc. One can go a step further - the white person's fight for justice is no more noble than the African-American's fight for justice which is unlike the 'politics of envy' which suggests that the "brahmin's" anti-caste crusade is more significant than the "dalit's" anti-caste crusade since the "brahmin" has something to lose and the "dalit" something to gain. In your example, it does not matter whether one is straight or gay in the fight for sexual equality. Clearly my bias is 'politics of justice'. Regardless of who we are, we need to oppose discrimination and fight for justice. This is one reason why I refused to answer Teotonio's caste question. This is why it should not matter if you are straight or gay in your fight for sexual justice. There is another twist - what if someone was bi-sexual, the 'politics of envy' does not work using your gay/straight dicotomy, but the 'politics of justice' does, another reason to adopt the latter. Regards, George
Re: [Goanet]Re: Caste and all that....
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## This has been a very interesting discussion so far. :) I was wondering if anyone could expand on Hindus' perception of Goan Catholics' use of the caste-system. Thanks, Neal Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pintomusic.com On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:19:02 -0400, Basilio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Dear Fred: > Your characterization of my position as apologetics (defending the Church) > is unfortunate. I have taken a middle of the road position contextualized in > social sciences. Caste, as discrimination of any sort, is a human problem; > it does not solely belong to any particular institution. This problem of > caste, which, indeed is a problem, has to be resolved by individuals at a > very personal level. Institutions may create a helpful environment, but it > is the individual that has to respond. Laying blame at the feet of the > institutions is easy, and absolves everyone of personal responsibility. It > gives one something to boast about and gain legitimacy in some social > circles.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Caste in East Africa
On 02/06/05, George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Cornel & Tony: > > Thanks for the very informative posts. I notice many ex-East Africans Goans > write elegantly, your > schools taught well. Stylistically, you have much in common - including > Gabe, Milton, Eddie > Fernandes. RESPONSE: What can I say? Thank you very much for the compliment. I do think that you too, write elegantly, so also does Fred, Mario the ma*. man; Not forgetting our resident scientist - no names mentioned - his preference is to combat, not to be praised; guess he is shy? Many more and I am sincerely sorry I can not mention you all, but as Elvis sang 'you are always on my mind' and last not least Cecil the trainee poder. The strength of Goanet is in its lowest common denominator. Yours humbly ever. cheers. Gabe Menezes London England. P.S. I have noticed Goanet posters are growing in number and the Goanet administrators are accommodating the fairer sex with their postings - mis-responses and chain emails! All in all, just to give them Dutch courage! I'll drink a Johnny Walker Blue to that!
Re: [Goanet]Re: Caste in East Africa
In my part of the world the association is called the Indian Catholic Association. The extended community are called GEMS, which stands for Goans, East Indians and Mangaloreans. Non-GEMS are welcome to join. I wouldn't know an African Goan from anyone else unless he or she told me they lived there. It's irrelevent. So much for caste being the basis for any such organization. --- George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Cornel & Tony: > > Thanks for the very informative posts. I notice > many ex-East Africans Goans write elegantly, your > schools taught well. Stylistically, you have much > in common - including Gabe, Milton, Eddie > Fernandes. > > I am curious now about the caste issue in Goan > Associations in other migrant populations - Goans > in Portugal, North America, Australia. Sometimes > people trade one prejudice for another. So if > they gave up a caste prejudice, have they taken on > another? In the USA, the Goans I have met do > not carry their caste credentials openly. However, > I wonder sometimes if they look at > African-Americans as favorably as they do others. > > Regards, > George > > > >
[Goanet] RE: 'Caste barrier' limits air travel!
-- | Wishing all Goanetters | | a Prosperous | | and | | Happy New Year - 2006 | |Goanet - http://www.goanet.org | -- What is of relevance to Goa is "why" barriers to air travel in general and low cost air travel in particular have been placed at Dabolim? I have called this the Great Wall of Goa (GWOG). It is very much a socio-economic barrier at present. The people of Goa must rise as one to demolish it and replace it with a more people friendly air travel regime -- at Dabolim. Viva Goa! -- |Goa - 2005 Santosh Trophy Champions | || | Support Soccer Activities at the grassroots in our villages | | Vacationing in Goa this year-end - Carry and distribute Soccer Balls | --
[Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
Mario, I wish you luck in your endeavor to get rid of the caste system. I am still at a loss to comprehend how you will be confronting this mammoth task. Is it really the caste system which is diabolical or the people's mindset, power and affluence? Avelino Bastora/Kuwait _ Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:17:38 -0800 (PST) From: Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Goanet]Caste and effects of debate. "D'Souza, Avelino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The rationale of the debate is tricky to comprehend. > Mario replies: Avelino, what about the fact that many of us want to abolish the diabolical caste system, starting with our own Goan Catholic community, do you find "tricky to comprehend"? I don't get it.
[Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
I am determined to know the pros and cons of caste system. I had also asked if caste system is really diabolical or the person's mindset, power and affluence. Your lengthy post seems to conveniently avoid my requests. However, I did find your slogan, against caste, buried in your innumerable posts and well hidden. It's clever of you to camouflage from prying netters. I am not sure if I can coin it appropriately, but nevertheless I will give it a try. "A SICK MAN SINGLE HANDEDLY FIGHTING A SICK CASTE SYSTEM" It sounds cool, I love it! Avelino Bastora/Kuwait ___ Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote Avelino, I have no patience for that approach because this has gone on far too long, I am in the third quarter of my life, a cancer survivor, and I am anxious to change at least a few minds and plant a few seeds before I check out and try to talk St. Peter into letting me haunt a few people that need haunting.
[Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
Mario, The caste system, in your own words, has been around 5000 years. I think it does have legitimacy and respect from people who practice and who are keen in keeping it alive. On the other hand, you don't want to explain to me "the pros and cons of the caste system" for reasons best known to you. BTW, your Arab friends particularly the Palestinians are admirers of Nazi-ism. They are waiting for the second coming of Hitler. Are neo-Nazis capable of helping the cause of Palestinians? Your remark "I am headed in the opposite direction" baffles me. Are you saying you are running away from caste system? I understand your obsessive aspiration to catch the bull by the horns. Your pitiful health condition and age may be keeping you at bay. Mario, go ahead and give it a try. You may not last long but at least you will have the satisfaction of giving your best shot. If nothing comes out of it, at least the bull will pull your foot out of the grave. Mario, you have been trumpeting your sickness and old age on the forum since you started posting. Person who is sick is called sick. Please tell me what you liked to be called. Are your pretensions to be sick finally haunting you? Do you want to live a normal life without being sick? Avelino Bastora/Kuwait __ Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote Avelino, For me to take time to explain to you "the pros and cons of the caste system" would be giving the caste system far too much respect and legitimacy. I am headed in the opposite direction. This curious request by you is like someone asking for an explanation of the pros and cons of Nazi-ism By the way your "slogan" catches the bull If the caste system is sick, then the sick people are not those who are fighting to abolish the system
[Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
Mario, What's up Man! You are mixing catechism with history Man! Catechism teaches Our Father, Hail Mary, I Believe, I Confess, Ten Commandments etc. You have lost touch of reality Man! Goans Christians are part of history lessons not catechism as you are implying. Christianity existed in Goa much before the arrival of Portuguese. Why are you isolating the caste system to Catholic community? Why are you biased against other communities? Don't you like to deal with the Caste system as an evil of Goan society? Don't you want all communities to be free from this evil? Mario, are you saying that caste system is good for other communities whereas it is evil for Catholic community? Mario, your ability to deal with caste system is outdated and ill equipped. Your "rave and rant" approach will not lead you anywhere. Your halfhearted approach to deal with caste system smells of sinister motives. Your lackadaisical effort and your repeated attempts to talk about your sickness and old age as a deterrent to deal firmly with caste system speak volumes of your true intent. Avelino Bastora/Kuwait ___ Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote Avelino, 5,000 years refers to Hindus. Christ preached that everyone was the same. Did you even get this part of your catechism? Goans have been Christian for up to 450 years or so. All we anti-castists want is for Catholics who still follow the caste system to realize how wrong and destructive and anti-Christian this system is.
[Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
Mario, You might be aware why nobody seems to bite your bait. I was late to realize that the best medicine to deal with a sick person is to ignore the 'rave and rant' totally! Have a peaceful sleep with a well sharpened stake. Avelino Bastora/Kuwait Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "D'Souza, Avelino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Christianity existed in Goa much before the arrival of Portuguese. Mario replies: I know Christianity existed in Kerala before the Portuguese came to Goa, but not in Goa. Maybe other Goan historians can clarify Avelino's version that Christianity existed in Goa much before the arrival of the Portuguese. Avelino writes: > Why are you isolating the caste system to Catholic community? Why are you biased against other communities? Don't you like to deal with the Caste system as an evil of Goan society? Don't you want all communities to be free from this evil? Mario replies: All I have said is that I restrict myself to the Catholic community because I belong to this community and cannot preach to others when the system exists in my own community. I leave the Hindus to deal with their community
Re: [Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
Avelino, Since you seem determined to continue on this approach, let me spell it out for you as there may be others out there like you. We are talking about the caste system in this thread, not all of society's ills. The people's mindset, power and affluence may be in play here, but the demon in our case is discrimination based on caste, as opposed to a person's personal behavior, achievements and attitude. 1. I start with the conviction that the caste system is diabolical and has caused incredible heartache and family conflict among Catholic Goans, especially when a child in the family wants to marry someone "outside the caste". If you are unaware of this I really cannot help you. I have seen its destructiveness within and around my own extended family. 2. The long-term abolition is dependent on changing people's hearts and minds. Some people refer to this as "education" and prefer the gentle persuasive approach. I have no patience for that approach because this has gone on far too long, I am in the third quarter of my life, a cancer survivor, and I am anxious to change at least a few minds and plant a few seeds before I check out and try to talk St. Peter into letting me haunt a few people that need haunting. 3. Discussing the issue on open forums like Goanet makes people aware of the problem, sensitive to its destructiveness, and provides moral support to those who may be facing the problem currently, to know that there are people like me who detest this system as as unfair and eminently discriminatory as racism, and they can count on my moral and actual support. 4. When Catholic Goans bring up the topic in my presence I don't keep quiet on the grounds that it may upset them. I let them know in no uncertain terms that what they are doing is inherently wrong and at odds with Christianity. If I lose a friend over this I am quite prepared to dismiss that person as not the kind of friend I should be having. 5. I tend to use the "rant and rave" approach because it emphasizes my passion and seriousness, and I am hoping to embed deeply in their consciousness a deep-seated guilt that this system is all wrong in every which way and it is time to end it. --- "D'Souza, Avelino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mario, I wish you luck in your endeavor to get rid > of the caste system. I am still at a loss to comprehend how you will be confronting this mammoth task. > > Is it really the caste system which is diabolical or > the people's mindset, power and affluence? >
Re: [Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
Avelino, For me to take time to explain to you "the pros and cons of the caste system" would be giving the caste system far too much respect and legitimacy. I am headed in the opposite direction. This curious request by you is like someone asking for an explanation of the pros and cons of Nazi-ism, or racism or fascism. I met Louis Armstrong in Bombay in 1964, simply because an air-hostess friend of mine had been on duty when his band flew into Bombay and he had given her tickets as his guests. In my presence an eager reporter asked Mr. Armstrong to explain jazz. The great man looked at him for a few seconds then said, "Man, if you have to ask, you'll never know." With due respect to Louis Armstrong, when it comes to the blatant discrimination that the caste system represents, when someone like you needs an explanation I have to respond with, "Avelino, if you have to ask, you'll never know." Your determination to get an explanation of "the pros and cons" of the caste system would be better aimed at intellectuals like Basilio or Gilbert, who have a tolerance for this diabolical practice far greater than mine, or Jose, who does not have the same tolerance but, on a good day, may have the patience to cater to your wishes. By the way your "slogan" catches the bull by the tail. If the caste system is sick, then the sick people are not those who are fighting to abolish the system, but probably those who are determined to make excuses for it or to look for "explanations" of the obvious. --- "D'Souza, Avelino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am determined to know the pros and cons of caste > system. I had also > asked if caste system is really diabolical or the > person's mindset, > power and affluence. Your lengthy post seems to > conveniently avoid my > requests. > > However, I did find your slogan, against caste, > buried in your > innumerable posts and well hidden. It's clever of > you to camouflage > from prying netters. I am not sure if I can coin it > appropriately, but > nevertheless I will give it a try. > > "A SICK MAN SINGLE HANDEDLY FIGHTING A SICK CASTE > SYSTEM" > > It sounds cool, I love it! > > > Avelino > Bastora/Kuwait > > ___ > > Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote > > Avelino, > I have no patience for that approach > because this has gone on far too long, I am in the > third quarter of my life, a cancer survivor, and I > am > anxious to change at least a few minds and plant a > few > seeds before I check out and try to talk St. Peter > into letting me haunt a few people that need > haunting. > >
Re: [Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
--- "D'Souza, Avelino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mario, > The caste system, in your own words, has been around 5,000 years. I think it does have legitimacy and respect from people who practice and who are keen in keeping it alive. On the other hand, you don't want to explain to me "the pros and cons of the caste system" for reasons best known to you. BTW, your Arab friends particularly the Palestinians are admirers of Nazi-ism. They are waiting for the second coming of Hitler. Are neo-Nazis capable of helping the cause of Palestinians? Mario replies: Avelino, do you even understand what you are writing? The 5,000 years refers to Hindus. Christ preached that everyone was the same. Did you even get this part of your catechism? Goans have been Christian for up to 450 years or so. There are NO pros to castism, man, unless you can find "pros" in discriminating against people for reasons they cannot control like color and caste. What is the matter with you? Since you are such a proponent of castism maybe you should tell us the "pros" that you see in it. I have Palestinian friends and business clients, but I oppose most of what their militants believe about their "rights" in Palestine, other than what they can peacefully negotiate with Israel. It is only their extremists who have something in common with the Nazis, which is to commit genocide against Jews. And what does Palestine have to do with the Goan Catholic caste system? All we anti-castists want is for Catholics who still follow the caste system to realize how wrong and destructive and anti-Christian this system is. Avelino writes: > Your remark "I am headed in the opposite direction" baffles me. Are you saying you are running away from caste system? Mario replies: Since you are "baffled" with our opposition to discrimination, there is little that will not "baffle" you. You seem chronically baffled. I am NOT running away from anything, including the caste system and some crazy Goanetters. I am confronting it and it's apologists and trying to get those who are not baffled to oppose it as I do.
Re: [Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
"D'Souza, Avelino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Christianity existed in Goa much before the arrival of Portuguese. Mario replies: I know Christianity existed in Kerala before the Portuguese came to Goa, but not in Goa. Maybe other Goan historians can clarify Avelino's version that Christianity existed in Goa much before the arrival of the Portuguese. Avelino writes: > Why are you isolating the caste system to Catholic community? Why are you biased against other communities? Don't you like to deal with the Caste system as an evil of Goan society? Don't you want all communities to be free from this evil? Mario replies: Avelino, find me ONE place I have said that I am isolating the caste system to the Catholic community. All I have said is that I restrict myself to the Catholic community because I belong to this community and cannot preach to others when the system exists in my own community. I leave the Hindus to deal with their community. What don't you understand about this? Avelino writes: > Mario, are you saying that caste system is good for other communities whereas it is evil for Catholic community? Mario replies: Avelino, where have you seen me say that? I oppose the caste system in all communities. However, don't you know that it is an integral part of the Hindu religion, whereas it is against the fundamentals of the Christian religion and only found among Christians in India? It is bad for EVERYONE because it is discrimination based on factors that the person cannot control and not on the character or achievements or behavior of an individual. Avelino writes: > Mario, your ability to deal with caste system is outdated and ill equipped. Your "rave and rant" approach will not lead you anywhere. Your halfhearted approach to deal with caste system smells of sinister motives. Your lackadaisical effort and your repeated attempts to talk about your sickness and old age as a deterrent to deal firmly with caste system speak volumes of your true intent. > Mario replies: You keep repeating stuff like a stuck record that I have never said. My approach is hardly half-hearted or lackdaisical. Actually, it is people like you who stand in the way of getting rid of the caste system by raising irrelevent issues and questions like wanting to be told the "pros and cons" of the caste system, or why I focus primarily on Catholics and not Hindus. All this shows you do not understand anything about what is going on.
Re: [Goanet]RE: Caste and effects of debate.
Avelino, I think you need to take a refresher course in English and writing before you continue to embarrass yourself on Goanet. Anyone who reads your posts knows that you understand little or nothing of what you read, cannot respond in any sensible way to anything that has been said and you continue to repeat the same old stuff like a stuck record without adding anything to the debate. Your following post is an excellent example where you have said absolutely NOTHING about what I had written before. --- "D'Souza, Avelino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mario, > You might be aware why nobody seems to bite your > bait. I was late to realize that the best medicine to deal with a sick person is to ignore the 'rave and rant' totally! > > Have a peaceful sleep with a well sharpened stake. > > > Avelino > Bastora/Kuwait > > > > > Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "D'Souza, Avelino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Christianity existed in Goa much before the > arrival > of Portuguese. > > Mario replies: > I know Christianity existed in Kerala before the > Portuguese came to Goa, but not in Goa. Maybe other > Goan historians can clarify Avelino's version that > Christianity existed in Goa much before the arrival > of > the Portuguese. > > Avelino writes: > > Why are you isolating the caste system to Catholic > community? Why are you biased against other > communities? Don't you like to deal with the > Caste system as an evil of Goan society? Don't you > want all communities to be free from this evil? > > Mario replies: > All I have said is that I restrict myself to the > Catholic community because I belong to this > community > and cannot preach to others when the system exists > in > my own community. I leave the Hindus to deal with > their community > > >
[Goanet]Re: Caste adverts - Viviana says Fire her!
From: Viviana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yes! I should be sacked immediately, I agree! :-))) By the way, a few months ago I asked if anyone on the list had married outside of his/her caste and received no response. Viviana (without caste!) === I am glad that No One bothered to respond to such a casteist question from Viviana. What do you mean by "anyone married outside of his/her caste" ? Perhaps NO ONE cares about this racist humbug called caste. BTW: my purpose of pointing out "RC Brahmin" in cybermatrimonials was NOT directed at the young lady who (most likely) included that bit quite inadvertantly or automatically. I see here an older posting from Fred Noronha where he indicates that care is taken to delete "caste" from the postings. Why on earth one sees this semi-defence of the "caste" in the advert beats me. Errors happen. It is quite OK to admit a slip up and move on jc _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
[Goanet]Re: Caste and all that.... reply to Fred
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Dear Fred: Your characterization of my position as apologetics (defending the Church) is unfortunate. I have taken a middle of the road position contextualized in social sciences. Caste, as discrimination of any sort, is a human problem; it does not solely belong to any particular institution. This problem of caste, which, indeed is a problem, has to be resolved by individuals at a very personal level. Institutions may create a helpful environment, but it is the individual that has to respond. Laying blame at the feet of the institutions is easy, and absolves everyone of personal responsibility. It gives one something to boast about and gain legitimacy in some social circles. Your post - particularly what I highlight below is brilliant. A sincere conversation on this topic can be transformative; but a combative discussion will perpetuate the problem. Basilio Monteiro The problem with caste isn't caste in itself, but the fact that ingrained into it are in-built notions of superiority and inferiority. This goes against the very grain of a democratic one-(wo)man-one-vote principle, where people are judged by their individual attributes and not group identities. In times when mass-education is playing the role of a great leveller, and changing Goan society tremendously, the incongruity of caste-based feelings of superiority or inferiority is even more glaringly apparent. Migration is another great leveler, and I genuinely accept the frankness with which some expats say, "Caste, what's that?" We need to be moving towards a meritocracy, where each individual is given a fair chance for all his/her talents to bloom, and then judged on the basis of what talents s/he has. Affirmative action is however not to be decried, just because it cuts into the traditional cake of the already well-off. When certain groups manage to corner an unfair share of the cream for themselves, you're going to see negative 'social capital' and also market imperfections, that block growth. Caste is obviously going to remain of sociological importance, maybe to understand who we are, where we come from. Also, our histories. Maybe even where our ancestors were unfair towards others (obviously harder to admit), or got bullied by others. Etc, etc. But I don't think we can, or should, march forward into the past and create networks on these lines. Like a businessman has only one caste and one religion -- money, it makes more sense -- likewise it would better for anyone who opts to deal with all human beings without preconceived notions. My caste identity, if at all, should matter as much as my blood group (A+), or the colour of my underwear (brown). It is there, but doesn't entitle me to feel superior or inferior to anyone else merely because of it being there.
[Goanet]Re. Caste... and all that- especially in Marriages
Re. the issue of casteism in matrimonial ads: My opinion is that caste can often (not always) act as a good first filter towards finding a suitable spouse (I am speaking about Compatability here) from a large pool of unknown suitors available, especially in arranged marriages; which is why it is specified, even by some people who may not really have this as a rigid criteria. Though, it would be better to specify exactly what personal qualities, values,etc.. "product specifications" in short :)one would like in a prospective suitor, ths is not always feasible due to reasons like "bandwidth" ;), print column space etc. I think we could view this more liberally, though it is a good thing that so many goa-netters pointed it out, as this is an evil which must be gradually stamped out. Incidentally, the TOI gives a discount for matrimonials which do not mention caste. In general, I am personally against casteism, I also feel it is slowly getting extinct due to the increased literacy rates and higher levels of education. Probably, a thorough all-round education for our youth is the only way to beat this demon (not giving up the older generation as beyond-help though, but they are more difficult to cure due to many of them, even the well-educated having ingrained views & mind-sets). Further, it is also the fault of our leaders (political & religious) who are covertly propogating this to futher their own ends by creating rifts in society which they can exploit to their advantage. Neil [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caste... and all that Mon Jul 4 23:10:41 2005 Something just occurred to me on the subject of casteism in matrimonial advertisements. I can't quite articulate it now but I'll give it a try: If a Goan were to marry another Goan, there may (depending on the family) be some pretentiousness regarding caste. If these SAME Goans families were presented with a fiance/fiancee of Catholic European descent, would they be just as rigid in questioning the pedigree of this white person's lineage? Neal Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pintomusic.com On 7/4/05, Frederick Noronha (FN) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On the question of whether one can be a Brahmin and an anti-casteist at > the same time, perhaps the question would be better framed if it had > asked whether one can subscribe to Brahminism and believe in > anti-casteism at the same time. > ___ Too much spam in your inbox? Yahoo! Mail gives you the best spam protection for FREE! http://in.mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: Caste adverts - Viviana says Fire her!
jose colaco wrote: I am glad that No One bothered to respond to such a casteist question from Viviana. What do you mean by "anyone married outside of his/her caste" ? Perhaps NO ONE cares about this racist humbug called caste. Right. That's why there's never any mention of it on Goanet. I guess I've been dreaming that I've been reading many many posts about caste. Wakey! Wakey! Viviana
[Goanet]Re: Caste adverts - Viviana says Fire her! 2
jose colaco wrote: I am glad that No One bothered to respond to such a casteist question from Viviana. What do you mean by "anyone married outside of his/her caste" ? Perhaps NO ONE cares about this racist humbug called caste. From: Viviana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> < Right. That's why there's never any mention of it on Goanet. I guess I've been dreaming that I've been reading many many posts about caste. Wakey! Wakey!> JC responds, Forget Wakey Wakey Dona Viviana . more appropriate to Read-ey Read-ey. The mention of "caste" in posts is NOT (I repeat NOT) synonymous with support for the practice of "Caste" . Please take your time and read the posts ... except for that post from TRS - I'd be hard pressed (don't know about you) to find support for the practice of Caste. BTW: Anyone who answered your question (like anyone who answered TRS' question) would be overtly supporting the CASTE SYSTEM. Now time for sleepy sleepy for me. good wishes jc below OutCaste BTW2 : Fire Viviana for true. _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
[Goanet]Re: Caste adverts - Viviana says Fire her! - final
From: Viviana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> all who mentioned caste were doing so to support the practice. Silly me!> Good for you Silly you fer true jc _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Re: [Goanet]Re. Caste... and all that- especially in Marriages
--- Neil Rodrigues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My opinion is that caste can often (not always) act > as a good first filter towards finding a suitable > spouse > > In general, I am personally against casteism, > Mario replies: Neil, If you are really against casteism, maybe you should participate in educating people that this is a dastardly discriminatory system, period, and refrain from making statements that give it credence, like it's use as "a good first filter". We're talking about people here, not dirty water.
Re: [Goanet]Re. Caste... and all that- especially in Marriages
Appologies Friends ! * If you are really against casteism, maybe you should participate in educating people that this is a dastardly discriminatory system * wrote Mario Mario , I believe sums up the argument very well , mere words without any action is like a dripping tap water dripping and ending up in the wast ocean without much of an effect. What we need is education , Goan organizations , NGO's etc., etc., all over the world should get involved in organizing - * discussion meetings * to address these issues. ( that is - if they feel that the Caste system is unacceptable ) I am sure Cornel could lead by example - here in the UK. I am sure Gabe will give him all the support. I am sure many of my learned and more articulate Friends on this forum will add their comments to my thoughts. I am often reminded by many Goans - I come in contact from time to time , that we Goans are tired of WORDS - but are hungry for ACTION ... Lets JUST DO IT ! rene barreto GOAN SOLIDARITY 2005 - 20th of August 2005 === --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Neil Rodrigues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > My opinion is that caste can often (not always) > act > > as a good first filter towards finding a suitable > > spouse > > > > In general, I am personally against casteism, > > > Mario replies: > Neil, > If you are really against casteism, maybe you should > participate in educating people that this is a > dastardly discriminatory system, period, and refrain > from making statements that give it credence, like > it's use as "a good first filter". > > We're talking about people here, not dirty water. --- My apologies to the many of you who have written to me , I will reply as soon as I get my internet connection , I am without an Internet connection at home , I have been promised that I would get one .for the last one and a half month. We too - have our problems here in the UK - like you guys in Goa. ) Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Re: [Goanet]Re: Caste adverts - Viviana says Fire her! 2
jose colaco wrote: JC responds, Forget Wakey Wakey Dona Viviana . more appropriate to Read-ey Read-ey. The mention of "caste" in posts is NOT (I repeat NOT) synonymous with support for the practice of "Caste" . Gee, Dr. Jose, thanks for clarifying that for me. And here I thought that all who mentioned caste were doing so to support the practice. Silly me! Please take your time and read the posts ... except for that post from TRS - I'd be hard pressed (don't know about you) to find support for the practice of Caste. BTW: Anyone who answered your question (like anyone who answered TRS' question) would be overtly supporting the CASTE SYSTEM. Uh, okay, sure. Dona Viviana Now time for sleepy sleepy for me. good wishes jc below OutCaste BTW2 : Fire Viviana for true.
Re: [Goanet]Re: Caste adverts - Viviana says Fire her! 2
I am only just catching up with posts, and from memory, am responding to a point/question by Viviana earlier. There is a very great difference between the concepts of caste and class. They are definitely not synonomous. Both Jose and I had spelt out the difference in earlier posts on this theme and rather than reply to this issue yet again, I hope Viviana will look through the archives for an answer to her question. Cornel - Original Message - From: "jose colaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 7:23 PM Subject: [Goanet]Re: Caste adverts - Viviana says Fire her! 2 jose colaco wrote: I am glad that No One bothered to respond to such a casteist question from Viviana. What do you mean by "anyone married outside of his/her caste" ? Perhaps NO ONE cares about this racist humbug called caste. From: Viviana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> < Right. That's why there's never any mention of it on Goanet. I guess I've been dreaming that I've been reading many many posts about caste. Wakey! Wakey!> JC responds, Forget Wakey Wakey Dona Viviana . more appropriate to Read-ey Read-ey. The mention of "caste" in posts is NOT (I repeat NOT) synonymous with support for the practice of "Caste" . Please take your time and read the posts ... except for that post from TRS - I'd be hard pressed (don't know about you) to find support for the practice of Caste. BTW: Anyone who answered your question (like anyone who answered TRS' question) would be overtly supporting the CASTE SYSTEM. Now time for sleepy sleepy for me. good wishes jc below OutCaste BTW2 : Fire Viviana for true. _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
[Goanet]Re; Caste and all that ... response to Neal and Cornel
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Dear Neal: As Cornel indicated your question on "popular opinion..." is very intriguing. To do a meaningful quantitative and qualitative research on caste is extremely difficult, if not impossible. The subject is sensitive, complex and internalized. Besides, the research of his nature falls in the human-subjects category, which creates serious ethical problems for the researcher. The only good method, from my point of view, to study meaningfully the subject of caste would be an ethnographic study. Although this method is very helpful to understand non-quantifiable issues, and it illuminates many related issues, nonetheless, it does not satisfy chronic/congenital detractors. All the best, Basilio Monteiro
