Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final
Cheers! Mario, That makes two of us. Tks best rgds Floriano goasuraj Check-Out the Road Map for Goa at www.goasu-raj.org - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final Floriano, You are a gentleman and a scholar. Mario. --- floriano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Mario, Thank you for opening a larger view-window to life.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final
Floriano, You are a gentleman and a scholar. Mario. --- floriano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Mario, Thank you for opening a larger view-window to life. I am a trained ex-merchant marine officer where discipline is grilled in one's bones. And my view of the world is always tinted with the hue that discipline displays. I grew up in pre-liberation Portuguese Goa where I am proud to have willingly sold home-grown vegetables in the Aldona/Mapusa markets to make ends meet while in school and even headed a heavy vegetable basket on Fridays to reach my mother to the taxi-stand on the way to school (SSC), without foot wear (as t he same was a tradition for all, then). And I have grown up liking two things: (1) Discipline and (2) Dignity of labour.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final
On 14/03/06, Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Floriano, My reference to Portugal as a third rate European country was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Let me assure you that I love Portugal and the Portuguese, whom I will defend as the least racist of all Europeans or any other people for that matter, and they have a susegad outlook on life that is to be admired. I would love to socialize more with them. RESPONSE: What a fraud ! Are we to assume that the statement made by a fraud: Poor Americans are better off than middle class Europeans, was also a tongue in cheek statement? Extremely patronizing stance. -- TUMCHER AXIRVAD ASSUM; DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final
Dear Mario, Thank you for opening a larger view-window to life. I am a trained ex-merchant marine officer where discipline is grilled in one's bones. And my view of the world is always tinted with the hue that discipline displays. I grew up in pre-liberation Portuguese Goa where I am proud to have willingly sold home-grown vegetables in the Aldona/Mapusa markets to make ends meet while in school and even headed a heavy vegetable basket on Fridays to reach my mother to the taxi-stand on the way to school (SSC), without foot wear (as t he same was a tradition for all, then). And I have grown up liking two things: (1) Discipline and (2) Dignity of labour. In my days at sea, I have been privileged to be among people of standing in most countries of the world I have visited. And hence the kaleidoscope of my vision on the way of life. But despite this, the two thumb-rules listed above that makes me tick have weathered out and will always be a part of my psyche come what may. It is this that sees me in the High Court at Panjim most often when I should be up and about the business of taking care of my own stomach. Nevertheless, your vision in life has given me something to think about and I shall treasure the same, rest assured. with warm regards Floriano goasuraj check-out the Road Map for Goa at www.goasu-raj.org - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final Floriano, My reference to Portugal as a third rate European country was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Let me assure you that I love Portugal and the Portuguese, whom I will defend as the least racist of all Europeans or any other people for that matter, and they have a susegad outlook on life that is to be admired. I would love to socialize more with them. The problem with Goa and India is not freedom and democracy. It is citizens who are willing to tolerate corruption and ineffiency and wasted tax money, leaving other frustrated citizens to yearn for a nanny (with a whip) to maintain order. After growing up and living and working in India for several years in the best of circumstances, we gave up on the system and took an opportunity to opt out to another sausage factory. Fortunately, the world has evolved in a way that we can now enjoy the best of both worlds. With best wishes, Mario. --- floriano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario, All I can say is that PEOPLE HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT 'FREEDOM' IN A DEMOCRACY MEANS A third rate European Country by your standards, maybe. But I have been there extensively just like in Singapore.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final
Mario, All I can say is that PEOPLE HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT 'FREEDOM' IN A DEMOCRACY MEANS To elaborate further Freedom means one can do anything one likes. The whip is locked in a safe never to be seen. When I talk of Portuguese rule, I mean 'the whip' Singapore is a perfect democracy where I see the omnipotent/omnipresent WHIP which brings out blood and keeps lasting scars. Maybe like Rane, you will prefer to say that Singapore is a 'police state' A third rate European Country by your standards, maybe. But have been there extensively just like in Singapore. Have you?? rgds Floriano goasuraj check-out the Road Map for Goa at www.goasu-raj.org - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final --- floriano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MINUS THE PORTUGUESE, GOA VERY BADLY NEEDS THE ERSTWHILE PORTUGUESE RULE BACK IN PLACE. For that to happen in Goa, and for it to have a cleansing effect on the political scene in the COUNTRY, Mario observes: Floriano, I think you may agree that this will happen about the time that hell experiences global cooling, which will be after the current global warming completes it's cycle :-)) What any democracy needs is for honest people to step up and for the population to vote them into power. It's not easy, but nothing in a free democracy is easy. Which is why some people prefer the stability of a nanny to dictate to them and take care of them, even if it's a third rate nanny. Look how upset some people are that 50 million Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq are now developing into free and democratic countries, especially people who do not live there. Apparently, they preferred these countries to live under the tender care of the Taliban and Saddam. Surprisingly, many of these critics live in democratic countries. In the meantime, it may help everyone to accept the fact that the era of white, patronizing, dictatorial, colonial rule over brown people is over, even that of third rate European countries who are now unable to compete with their previous subjects. Best of luck in achieving your fantasy of Portuguese rule, minus the Portuguese, and that of Gabriel and Bernardo, who think tilting at windmills like Don Quixote wil make the windmills run better.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Gabriel is wrong about colonial Goa being like most Indian towns. I grew up in a medium sized Indian town and know that most of Goa under the Portuguese was more like an Indian village rather than any Indian town, because the Brits had done a far superior job in India than the somnolent Portuguese had done in Goa. Thank god the somnolent Portuguese did not treat Goans equivalent to dogs. God, what would it have been like to visit Simla? BC ___ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final
--- floriano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MINUS THE PORTUGUESE, GOA VERY BADLY NEEDS THE ERSTWHILE PORTUGUESE RULE BACK IN PLACE. For that to happen in Goa, and for it to have a cleansing effect on the political scene in the COUNTRY, Mario observes: Floriano, I think you may agree that this will happen about the time that hell experiences global cooling, which will be after the current global warming completes it's cycle :-)) What any democracy needs is for honest people to step up and for the population to vote them into power. It's not easy, but nothing in a free democracy is easy. Which is why some people prefer the stability of a nanny to dictate to them and take care of them, even if it's a third rate nanny. Look how upset some people are that 50 million Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq are now developing into free and democratic countries, especially people who do not live there. Apparently, they preferred these countries to live under the tender care of the Taliban and Saddam. Surprisingly, many of these critics live in democratic countries. In the meantime, it may help everyone to accept the fact that the era of white, patronizing, dictatorial, colonial rule over brown people is over, even that of third rate European countries who are now unable to compete with their previous subjects. Best of luck in achieving your fantasy of Portuguese rule, minus the Portuguese, and that of Gabriel and Bernardo, who think tilting at windmills like Don Quixote wil make the windmills run better.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final
Between GMB i.e Gabriel, Mario Bernardo and perhaps maybe many more Goans, this debade 'GOA FOR GOANS' may continue or die its natural death. But I believe that each one who has participated or is participating in this debade has done his/her best as according to what he/she believes. And those beliefs cannot be discarded off-hand as these have grown up with each person to maturity and is a part of the psyche of that person. However, as one of the minor participants in this ongoing debate and since I too have grown up being part of both the 'ertwhile' and the 'present rule' in Goa and being much involved in bringing-in a face-change in the political system for GOA in particular and for India in general, I will say once again what I have said before, many a times. MINUS THE PORTUGUESE, GOA VERY BADLY NEEDS THE ERSTWHILE PORTUGUESE RULE BACK IN PLACE. For that to happen in Goa, and for it to have a cleansing effect on the political scene in the COUNTRY, acknowledging that INDIA is a sleeping SUPERPOWER, NATIONAL PARTIES MUST BE CONFINED TO CONTEST ONLY THE PARLIAMENTARY SEATS AND LEAVE THE STATE ASSEMBLIES TO THE REGIONAL PARTIES. OR DISBANDON THE STATES ALTOGETHER AND RE-INTEGRATE INDIA INTO FOUR ZONES I.E. NORTH SOUTH EAST WEST. Amen Floriano Lobo goasuraj check-out the Road Map for Goa at www.goasu-raj.org Original Message - From: Gabriel de Figueiredo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The amusing revisionist nostalgia for colonial subservience continues unabated. It is not revisionist nostalgia - I lived there at the time, so did a lot of people still in Goa. Ask the 70 and 80-year-olds who graduated through Liceu and the Escola Técnica or Escola Médica (incidentally, the first allopathic medical college in Asia), and continue to live in Goa. I just interviewed one on a personal basis, to confirm my experiences, and we spoke in Konkani. He graduated from Liceu then from the Escola Técnica, concluding the latter a year after liberation; then worked for various Govt depts finally retiring as a Chief Eng at the Electricity Dept in Panjim. He tells me there were more issues between Goans (to show who was the greater one amongst them) than between the Portuguese and the Goans. And on a converse issue, I was also told by this person that the Brits really ill-treated the Indian taxi drivers prior to 1947, something that never even happened in Goa. Gabriel and Bernardo are living proof that there will always be some Goans who love the notion of being sycophants under the heel of a backward third rate European country and not part of a budding superpower. That is your opinion. 45 years later it's still a backward third rate European country, but still close to the hearts of Gabriel and Bernardo, Oh, how good their boots tasted, and how about all those imported cars and duty free cosmetics. Oh, for the good old days! Can we turn back the clock, PLEASE? I object to that insinuation. Gabriel, apparently from aristocratic and affluent Loutolim, is unaware that most village Goans back then used bullock-drawn carts for transportation in most of Goa, not the fancy foreign vehicles he lists, which could not make it back to the rutted roads in most of the villages. Perhaps you did not read my last post in its entirety. I agreed life in villages was like what you stated, including having hitched many a ride on bullock-carts. Did I not? But not in Panjim, Mapuçá, Vasco, Margão or Pondá. So what if the village life was village life? How long did you spend in Goa pre-1961? And more importantly, where did you spend that time? I know of taxis (the very same the fancy foreign vehicles) that used to ply on the mud roads of Darbandora (a border village). And many of these roads were twin cement-concrete tracks, some of which can still be seen under that tarmac between Mapuçá and Moirá/Nachinolá. Gabriel is wrong about colonial Goa being like most Indian towns. I grew up in a medium sized Indian town and know that most of Goa under the Portuguese was more like an Indian village rather than any Indian town, because the Brits had done a far superior job in India than the somnolent Portuguese had done in Goa. Bah! somnolent Portuguese left a far superior life-style in the whole of Goa than ever did Brits in British India. Not my opinion, but various publications have stated this. And the Goan administration under the Portuguese ensured every village, under a Regedor, was clean and tidy. And there was an ancient system of Comunidade that the Portuguese left alone as it was efficient, but the Indians destroyed replacing it with the inefficient and corrupt Panchayat system. You can sneer and fool around
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final
--- Gabriel de Figueiredo wrote: And on a converse issue, I was also told by this person that the Brits really ill-treated the Indian taxi drivers prior to 1947, something that never even happened in Goa. Mario observes: Gabriel, of all your claims this one is really pathetic. Why would the Brits single out Indian taxi drivers? Anyone who is familiar with British India and Portuguese Goa would know that Goa was at least a generation behind in every form of development. Gabriel writes: That is your opinion (That Gabriel and Bernardo are living proof that there will always be some Goans who love the notion of being sycophants under the heel of a backward third rate European country and not part of a budding superpower. Mario replies: Of course it is, but it's an opinion based on your comments and Bernardo's. Gabriel writes: I object to that insinuation. Mario responds: I apologize. I went too far. But you guys are truly amazing in your yearning for a backward European country having sway over you. Gabriel writes: Perhaps you did not read my last post in its entirety. I agreed life in villages was like what you stated, including having hitched many a ride on bullock-carts. Did I not? But not in Panjim, Mapuçá, Vasco, Margão or Pondá. So what if the village life was village life? How long did you spend in Goa pre-1961? And more importantly, where did you spend that time? Mario replies: You are right, but most of Goa consisted of quaint villages. I spent time in the villages during vacations trying to keep away from the pigs who worked for the sanitation department and later provided us with tasty sorpotel. For several years prior to 1961 members of our family were warned to stay away from Goa because we had members who were active nationalists whom the Portuguese did not appreciate. Free speech is not the strong suit of a colonialist. Gabriel writes: Bah! somnolent Portuguese left a far superior life-style in the whole of Goa than ever did Brits in British India. Not my opinion, but various publications have stated this. Mario responds: I'm sure the publications were by your Portuguese Goan friends. I saw both sides. Gabriel writes: Freedom? Is Goa *really* free? Why is the Navy still holding on to Dabolim? How was Anjediva handed over to the Navy? Why is the Navy blocking pilgrims (now for the last 2 years) to attend the two feasts? Why are there so many military camps in various parts of Goa? Why are the citizens of Panjim *not* allowed to park (By Order PMC) alongside the quartel? And given recent warnings on querying the actions of the Indian Armed Forces, is there really freedom of speech? Mario writes: The Navy is holding on to Dabolim? Now, that's a good one. Gabriel, since you don't seem to have gotten the memo, Goa is now an Indian state. I'm sure you cannot park wherever you like in Melbourne, restricted by the Melbourne Municipal Corporation. Besides, I don't know what Indian media you are familiar with. Indian journalists and politicians are questioning the Indian government and the Indian Armed Forces all the time. Yes, there is freedom of speech in Goa and India, legally protected by the Indian constitution, something that Goa did not have, and far more freedom of speech than us nationalists were allowed by the Portuguese. You should try it sometime. And remember what Winston Churchill said, Democracy is the worst system out there, except for all the other systems of government. Also, Watching a democracy in action is like watching sausage being made. Gabriel writes: This is my final post on this topic. Mário, as usual, can have the last word. Mario responds: Thanks, Gabriel. Not really necessary, but I'll take it. Someone has to defend freedom and democracy, which every human being yearns for, over the oppressive yolk of foreign colonialism.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! - final
--- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The amusing revisionist nostalgia for colonial subservience continues unabated. It is not revisionist nostalgia - I lived there at the time, so did a lot of people still in Goa. Ask the 70 and 80-year-olds who graduated through Liceu and the Escola Técnica or Escola Médica (incidentally, the first allopathic medical college in Asia), and continue to live in Goa. I just interviewed one on a personal basis, to confirm my experiences, and we spoke in Konkani. He graduated from Liceu then from the Escola Técnica, concluding the latter a year after liberation; then worked for various Govt depts finally retiring as a Chief Eng at the Electricity Dept in Panjim. He tells me there were more issues between Goans (to show who was the greater one amongst them) than between the Portuguese and the Goans. And on a converse issue, I was also told by this person that the Brits really ill-treated the Indian taxi drivers prior to 1947, something that never even happened in Goa. Gabriel and Bernardo are living proof that there will always be some Goans who love the notion of being sycophants under the heel of a backward third rate European country and not part of a budding superpower. That is your opinion. 45 years later it's still a backward third rate European country, but still close to the hearts of Gabriel and Bernardo, Oh, how good their boots tasted, and how about all those imported cars and duty free cosmetics. Oh, for the good old days! Can we turn back the clock, PLEASE? I object to that insinuation. Gabriel, apparently from aristocratic and affluent Loutolim, is unaware that most village Goans back then used bullock-drawn carts for transportation in most of Goa, not the fancy foreign vehicles he lists, which could not make it back to the rutted roads in most of the villages. Perhaps you did not read my last post in its entirety. I agreed life in villages was like what you stated, including having hitched many a ride on bullock-carts. Did I not? But not in Panjim, Mapuçá, Vasco, Margão or Pondá. So what if the village life was village life? How long did you spend in Goa pre-1961? And more importantly, where did you spend that time? I know of taxis (the very same the fancy foreign vehicles) that used to ply on the mud roads of Darbandora (a border village). And many of these roads were twin cement-concrete tracks, some of which can still be seen under that tarmac between Mapuçá and Moirá/Nachinolá. Gabriel is wrong about colonial Goa being like most Indian towns. I grew up in a medium sized Indian town and know that most of Goa under the Portuguese was more like an Indian village rather than any Indian town, because the Brits had done a far superior job in India than the somnolent Portuguese had done in Goa. Bah! somnolent Portuguese left a far superior life-style in the whole of Goa than ever did Brits in British India. Not my opinion, but various publications have stated this. And the Goan administration under the Portuguese ensured every village, under a Regedor, was clean and tidy. And there was an ancient system of Comunidade that the Portuguese left alone as it was efficient, but the Indians destroyed replacing it with the inefficient and corrupt Panchayat system. You can sneer and fool around with my statements. But you cannot deny the facts. Apparently, freedom and democracy does not appeal to everyone. Freedom? Is Goa *really* free? Why is the Navy still holding on to Dabolim? How was Anjediva handed over to the Navy? Why is the Navy blocking pilgrims (now for the last 2 years) to attend the two feasts? Why are there so many military camps in various parts of Goa? Why are the citizens of Panjim *not* allowed to park (By Order PMC) alongside the quartel? And given recent warnings on querying the actions of the Indian Armed Forces, is there really freedom of speech? This is my final post on this topic. Mário, as usual, can have the last word. Gabriel de Figueiredo. On Yahoo!7 Dancing with the Stars Win tickets to be part of the glittering Grand Final! http://www.yahoo.com.au/dancing-with-the-stars
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
--- Gabriel de Figueiredo wrote: Bernado, Don't cause yourself an injury. Mario obviously does not know what he's writing about. He's writing about village life, when most towns in India were no better. Mario observes: The amusing revisionist nostalgia for colonial subservience continues unabated. Gabriel and Bernardo are living proof that there will always be some Goans who love the notion of being sycophants under the heel of a backward third rate European country and not part of a budding superpower. 45 years later it's still a backward third rate European country, but still close to the hearts of Gabriel and Bernardo, Oh, how good their boots tasted, and how about all those imported cars and duty free cosmetics. Oh, for the good old days! Can we turn back the clock, PLEASE? Gabriel, apparently from aristocratic and affluent Loutolim, is unaware that most village Goans back then used bullock-drawn carts for transportation in most of Goa, not the fancy foreign vehicles he lists, which could not make it back to the rutted roads in most of the villages. Gabriel is wrong about colonial Goa being like most Indian towns. I grew up in a medium sized Indian town and know that most of Goa under the Portuguese was more like an Indian village rather than any Indian town, because the Brits had done a far superior job in India than the somnolent Portuguese had done in Goa. When we visited Goa, it was like going on safari. Oh, the duty free imports were great, for the visitors, Goan businessmen and the European exporters. That was the essence of an exploitative European colonizer - the colony was a free source of raw materials at one end and a captive market at the other end. Apparently, freedom and democracy does not appeal to everyone.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Bernado, Don't cause yourself an injury. Mario obviously does not know what he's writing about. He's writing about village life, when most towns in India were no better. Visas in 1510? A de A didn't require one (even if they were in the habit of issuing such) as he was invited by Timoja. Mess? The mess was created AFTER. Mines? Who were the mineowners? And how much did they give the government then, in taxes? and how much to they give the government now, in taxes? Bullock Powered taxis? Perhaps Mario is reminescing of good old Jabalpur! Mate, Goa's taxis were Opel Kapitans, Ford Consuls and Zephyrs, Peugeot 403 and 404s, and I could go on. Trucks were Bedfords, DAFs, Hinos, Isuzus, Fiats and others. Grant that villages in 1961 did use bullock carts for transporting goods (and even I used to hitch a ride hanging off the back of a cart in Loutolim, which BTW had an excellent tarred road then, and still has), and all the quaint equipment for living day-to-day lives. Mind you we still rely on the well in Loutolim, as water comes only for a couple of hours a day. Plus ça change, plus même chose. I suggest Mario read what the TIME magazine had to say about Goa of 1961: Goan businessmen were more fearful of India's confiscatory taxes and stifling bureaucracy than they were of the petty restrictions of the Portuguese colonial authorities. Union would also end Goa's virtually duty-free status and the sight of peasant women buying Chanel No. 5 and field hands carrying transistor radios. - Dec 29, 1961 Goa's virtually duty-free status sent swarms of Indian soldiers into shops stocked with inexpensive foreign luxury items seldom seen in India because of the government's stringent import restrictions. Shopkeepers did a brisk business in transistor radios, cameras, electric appliances, cosmetics, perfumes, wines. In one Pangim shop alone, Indian soldiers bought 1,400 Max Factor lipsticks. Truckloads of refrigerators were purchased by army officers for shipment home. - Dec 29, 1961 Cheers, Gabriel. --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You doing all the cleaning of the railway tracks in mumbai innit mate? Secular are getting at each others throats. Servants in the 21 century? Are you still lingering with colonialism? BC --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Legal immigrants when Goa is illegaly occupied? Goa is almost free for all. Mario observes: Bernardo, I think you may agree that the Portuguese illegally came to Goa in 1510 WITHOUT ANY VISAS, and were finally DEPORTED in 1961, leaving a big mess behind. In the good old Portuguese days, remember the ferries, unpaved and rutted roads, bullock powered taxis for the peasants, oil lamps in the villages, wells for water, wood burning sigrees for cooking, copper kettles for hot water, the wonderful sorpotel that resulted from the the sanitation system, hand-held fans instead of air-conditioning in the sweltering heat and humidity? Even coming from India, it was like the movie Lost World. Remember all the mines where they took the ore and exported it for their own benefit? ___ On Yahoo!7 Desperate Housewives: Sneak peeks, recaps and more. http://www.yahoo7.com.au/desperate-housewives
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Bernardo, It looks like you have been associating with the Cockneys a little too much, innit mate(?). As I recently advised some of the other Goan expatriates like Cornel, Valmiki and Gabriel, India and Goa are dangerous and hazardous places for those who have become overly fastidious and delicate from having lived abroad for some time. Seriously. I had previously advised you to move back to Goa and lead your GOA FOR GOANS movement, rather than snipe at what is going on from afar. But I don't think you have it in you. It is better that folks like you avoid going there, and leave it to the locals and those of us better able to deal with the hazards of daily life over there. By the way, Bernardo, the domestic workers provide an honest service for a wage they find acceptable. Maybe you haven't heard of the dignity of labor wherever you live. --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You doing all the cleaning of the railway tracks in mumbai innit mate? Secular are getting at each others throats. Servants in the 21 century? Are you still lingering with colonialism? BC --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Legal immigrants when Goa is illegaly occupied? Goa is almost free for all. Mario observes: Bernardo, I think you may agree that the Portuguese illegally came to Goa in 1510 WITHOUT ANY VISAS, and were finally DEPORTED in 1961, leaving a big mess behind. In the good old Portuguese days, remember the ferries, unpaved and rutted roads, bullock powered taxis for the peasants, oil lamps in the villages, wells for water, wood burning sigrees for cooking, copper kettles for hot water, the wonderful sorpotel that resulted from the the sanitation system, hand-held fans instead of air-conditioning in the sweltering heat and humidity? Even coming from India, it was like the movie Lost World. Remember all the mines where they took the ore and exported it for their own benefit? ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
You doing all the cleaning of the railway tracks in mumbai innit mate? Secular are getting at each others throats. Servants in the 21 century? Are you still lingering with colonialism? BC --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Legal immigrants when Goa is illegaly occupied? Goa is almost free for all. Mario observes: Bernardo, I think you may agree that the Portuguese illegally came to Goa in 1510 WITHOUT ANY VISAS, and were finally DEPORTED in 1961, leaving a big mess behind. In the good old Portuguese days, remember the ferries, unpaved and rutted roads, bullock powered taxis for the peasants, oil lamps in the villages, wells for water, wood burning sigrees for cooking, copper kettles for hot water, the wonderful sorpotel that resulted from the the sanitation system, hand-held fans instead of air-conditioning in the sweltering heat and humidity? Even coming from India, it was like the movie Lost World. Remember all the mines where they took the ore and exported it for their own benefit? ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
--- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Legal immigrants when Goa is illegaly occupied? Goa is almost free for all. Mario observes: Bernardo, I think you may agree that the Portuguese illegally came to Goa in 1510 WITHOUT ANY VISAS, and were finally DEPORTED in 1961, leaving a big mess behind. In the good old Portuguese days, remember the ferries, unpaved and rutted roads, bullock powered taxis for the peasants, oil lamps in the villages, wells for water, wood burning sigrees for cooking, copper kettles for hot water, the wonderful sorpotel that resulted from the the sanitation system, hand-held fans instead of air-conditioning in the sweltering heat and humidity? Even coming from India, it was like the movie Lost World. Remember all the mines where they took the ore and exported it for their own benefit? Now that Goa is part of a secular democracy, you are correct, anyone from India can go to Goa. Also, foreigners with the proper visas. What's wrong with that? I met an old Caucasian couple a few weeks ago, and when I asked them where they were from, they said in a Cockney accent, that they were from Goa! They had bought an old-style Goa mansion in Salcette, they had renovated it, had several servants and were living like royalty. I think YOU should go to Goa and organize the dwindling number of real Goans and recapture the place. I'm sure Babush Monserrat will be glad to help you. If you do it properly, it will all be legal, unlike the Portuguese colonial administration.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
I just returned from Goa - no sign of any communal riots. It is perfectly safe to live there, even with all those diabolical Indians who are pouring into Goa, while you Portuguese Goans live elsewhere and pretend to be interested in Goa. From Vagator to Palolem Goa was booming with economic activity. Why don't you return to Goa and lead the Goa for Goans campaign? Then someone may take you seriously and you may be able to achieve your goal. --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bernardo, My facts are far straighter than your facts, about Goa and anything connected with your curious Goa for Goans campaign while living safely in the UK. Mario, Are you saying that it is unsafe to live in Goa because of the recent communal riots? Thanks for the advice. BC ___ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Mario replies: There are two kinds of Latinos coming across the US border, legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. I gladly greet the legal immigrants because I am one myself. I also welcome their culture, because it makes the US a more wonderful place. Legal immigrants when Goa is illegaly occupied? Goa is al most free for all. BC ___ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
--- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't it fair to stop lotta culture to which you belong to coming to Goa? Mario responds: Bernardo, In a democracy like Goa, I don't know how even the local Goans can stop any other Indian culture from coming to Goa. How do you plan to do it from the UK? Bernardo writes: Are you greeting the latinos at the Mexico/US border? Mario replies: There are two kinds of Latinos coming across the US border, legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. I gladly greet the legal immigrants because I am one myself. I also welcome their culture, because it makes the US a more wonderful place. However, I'll make you a deal. We will return the US to the native Americans right after you Indian immigrants return the UK to the Brits. It is time you Goan expatriate hypocrites return to Goa and help make it for Goans, rather than make bizarre demands while living eleswhere. Mario. --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have lotta culture now in Goa. Hypocrites in the US return the land to the Indians! BC ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
--- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bernardo, My facts are far straighter than your facts, about Goa and anything connected with your curious Goa for Goans campaign while living safely in the UK. Mario, Are you saying that it is unsafe to live in Goa because of the recent communal riots? Thanks for the advice. BC ___ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Honest candidates??? my bloody foot. 1. Honesty must be tested and tested right WITH A WRITTEN DOWN PROGRAMME. That translates into the candidate saying what he/she will do and what he/she will not do. 2. The prospective candidate must endorse the written down PROGRAMME. 3. He must not drive on the wrong-side of the ROAD detailed in such ROAD MAP. If there is anyone fitting the above bill, I want to know about it. Most often the so called honest person is a sock in the wind. Cheers Floriano goasuraj Check-out download www.goasu-raj.org for such a ROAD MAP - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 9:35 AM Subject: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! Hi Savika, I have not seen your posts before on any other thread. Your initial post received the usual hammer and nail response. I hope you get my zest. From your recent response, you have weathered the hammers; and the head of the nail refuses to budge. So I guess, you are committed and serious about doing something good for Goa's political process. I do not live in Goa. But I have enough gray hair to help you (and other Goans) understand how democracy and elections work.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Isn't it fair to stop lotta culture to which you belong to coming to Goa? Are you greeting the latinos at the Mexico/US border? BC However, I'll make you a deal. We will return the US to the native Americans right after you Indian immigrants return the UK to the Brits. It is time you Goan expatriate hypocrites return to Goa and help make it for Goans, rather than make bizarre demands while living eleswhere. Mario. --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have lotta culture now in Goa. Hypocrites in the US return the land to the Indians! BC ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Bernardo, My facts are far straighter than your facts, about Goa and anything connected with your curious Goa for Goans campaign while living safely in the UK. The fact that you still do not know that Goa was a colony of a third rate European country and was liberated in 1961, 14 years after the colonial era was declared dead by the civilized world, reminds me of the Japanese soldiers they found recently in the Phillippine jungles who did not know that WW-II had ended years ago. Not knowing in 2006 that Goa and India are democracies goes a long way towards explaining your peculiar view of what is going on in Goa. Get used to the idea, now that you know, because you cannot turn back the clock, especially when you don't even live in Goa. Mario. --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Get your facts right about Goan history before making vile statements. What democracy are we talking about? BC
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Bernardo, In addition to GOA FOR GOANS, it looks like you are now proposing AMERICA FOR INDIANS? Maybe it has escaped your attention that the US belongs to the world, just as Canada, Australia and New Zealand. However, I'll make you a deal. We will return the US to the native Americans right after you Indian immigrants return the UK to the Brits. It is time you Goan expatriate hypocrites return to Goa and help make it for Goans, rather than make bizarre demands while living eleswhere. Mario. --- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have lotta culture now in Goa. Hypocrites in the US return the land to the Indians! BC Mario asks: Floriano, Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Goa a COLONY of a third rate European country, acquired by force 450 years ago, where there was no such thing as democratic rule, and no such thing as economic development either, except that which benefited Goa's colonial masters. How can you claim sans manipulation when a colony is nothing but manipulation and exploitation, and sans vote banks when voting meant nothing? In my opinion, it's not democracy that is at fault in Goa and India, but a subservient and careless population that goes along with abuses without rising up and electing honest people. ___ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Get your facts right about Goan history before making vile statements. What democracy are we talking about? BC Mario observes: Since Goa was a colony under the thumb of a third rate European colonial power that acquired the territory by force 450 years ago, and tried to hang on to it several years after the era of colonialism had been declared over by the rest of the civilized world, Goa is correctly described as having been liberated. Wha happened next was for the citizens of Goa to deal with under established rules of democracy, not by some European-inspired benevolence that benefited mainly the coconuts among us. ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
We have lotta culture now in Goa. Hypocrites in the US return the land to the Indians! BC Mario asks: Floriano, Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Goa a COLONY of a third rate European country, acquired by force 450 years ago, where there was no such thing as democratic rule, and no such thing as economic development either, except that which benefited Goa's colonial masters. How can you claim sans manipulation when a colony is nothing but manipulation and exploitation, and sans vote banks when voting meant nothing? In my opinion, it's not democracy that is at fault in Goa and India, but a subservient and careless population that goes along with abuses without rising up and electing honest people. ___ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Mario, you say In my opinion, it's not democracy that is at fault in Goa and India, but a subservient and careless population that goes along with abuses without rising up and electing honest people. Floriano responds.. You are very right on the above. It is the people who choose for themselves in a democracy. Honesty, is another ball game altogether. Which honest person will spend a load of his hard-earned money to wnat to get elected? Therefore all we get is seemingly 'Honest crooks' On manipulation: Without manipulations and strong arm tactics the Portuguese hadn't reach places to colonize. They all did. However I have grown up in the economically starved Goa under the Portuguese rule, where my father had to come home to us like a wanted criminal and 60% of his earnings taken away by taxes. But if I have grown up in difficult times, I have also grown up with values which the Portuguese pormoted. The manipulations I am talking about is the VOTE BANK MANIPULATIONS TO REMAIN AND/OR COME TO POWER. Let our democracy go ahead. It must. But let it go ahead with written down roadmaps by political parties so that the election time promises do not vapourize in thin air once the elections are over. Let people elect candidates who do not have money to spend on them. Let the parties say they will offer 'NO SECOND TERM' to their candidates. And if the India wants to survive in the true democratic tradition, then let NATIONAL parties only contest Parliamentary elections and be banned from contesting State/REGIONAL elections. Only in this case, the sucking-up to National Parties by States will end. - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! --- floriano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Goa has had 450 years of Portuguese rule sans corruption, sans manipulations, sans the race towards building vote banks. Goa's liberation saw the Indian so called democratic rule aka self-governance for the last 45 years. This Indian/self-governance rule has outdone the good that was built for the last 450 years in just 45 years. Mario asks: Floriano, Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Goa a COLONY of a third rate European country, acquired by force 450 years ago, where there was no such thing as democratic rule, and no such thing as economic development either, except that which benefited Goa's colonial masters. How can you claim sans manipulation when a colony is nothing but manipulation and exploitation, and sans vote banks when voting meant nothing? In my opinion, it's not democracy that is at fault in Goa and India, but a subservient and careless population that goes along with abuses without rising up and electing honest people.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
--- Bernado Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nobody has asked the Portuguese to come back do not get confused. There was no libertation in 61 only failures. Big time corruption was bought by the congress dudes to bolster their party funds. This was done in Goa with the collaboration with the Goans. If GS has guts open an inquiry into this issue. Mario observes: Since Goa was a colony under the thumb of a third rate European colonial power that acquired the territory by force 450 years ago, and tried to hang on to it several years after the era of colonialism had been declared over by the rest of the civilized world, Goa is correctly described as having been liberated. Wha happened next was for the citizens of Goa to deal with under established rules of democracy, not by some European-inspired benevolence that benefited mainly the coconuts among us.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
the helm of Goa's governance must be held in firm hands of Goans, not by Goans dictated to by the national parties like the Congress, the BJP, the NCP or the Janata Party etc. I am talking about Goa's own regional party. The concept of Goa for Goans must be forgotten once and for all. Goa must be made secure under Goa's rule so that outsiders feel really secure to settle down in Goa and prosper, fully knowing that they will enjoy total harmony and peace through the emergence of the RULE OF LAW. In other words, Goa does not need the Portuguese, but needs the Portuguese type disciplined Rule like never before with real Goans in its command and not Goan chamchas of the national parties. Nobody has asked the Portuguese to come back do not get confused. There was no libertation in 61 only failures. Big time corruption was bought by the congress dudes to bolster their party funds. This was done in Goa with the collaboration with the Goans. If GS has guts open an inquiry into this issue. BC ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
--- floriano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Goa has had 450 years of Portuguese rule sans corruption, sans manipulations, sans the race towards building vote banks. Goa's liberation saw the Indian so called democratic rule aka self-governance for the last 45 years. This Indian/self-governance rule has outdone the good that was built for the last 450 years in just 45 years. Mario asks: Floriano, Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Goa a COLONY of a third rate European country, acquired by force 450 years ago, where there was no such thing as democratic rule, and no such thing as economic development either, except that which benefited Goa's colonial masters. How can you claim sans manipulation when a colony is nothing but manipulation and exploitation, and sans vote banks when voting meant nothing? In my opinion, it's not democracy that is at fault in Goa and India, but a subservient and careless population that goes along with abuses without rising up and electing honest people.
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
Dear all, I have been keenly following the 'GOA FOR GOANS' line of thought, its pros and cons. And I would like to contribute my two bits towards the same. Goa has had 450 years of Portuguese rule sans corruption, sans manipulations, sans the race towards building vote banks. Goa's liberation saw the Indian so called democratic rule aka self-governance for the last 45 years. This Indian/self-governance rule has outdone the good that was built for the last 450 years in just 45 years. To stop this, which will inevitably destroy Goa completely by making it another Bihar or Gujarat, the helm of Goa's governance must be held in firm hands of Goans, not by Goans dictated to by the national parties like the Congress, the BJP, the NCP or the Janata Party etc. I am talking about Goa's own regional party. The concept of Goa for Goans must be forgotten once and for all. Goa must be made secure under Goa's rule so that outsiders feel really secure to settle down in Goa and prosper, fully knowing that they will enjoy total harmony and peace through the emergence of the RULE OF LAW. In other words, Goa does not need the Portuguese, but needs the Portuguese type disciplined Rule like never before with real Goans in its command and not Goan chamchas of the national parties. It cannot be Goa for Goans. It must be GOANS FIRST. Floriano Lobo goasuraj - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS! --- Anthony and Nolette de Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, All! This is Martinho de Souza from Oz calling! Greetings from Down Under! While civilized foreign tourists and stayers are welcome in Goa, Goa should be there for Goans - whether resident there or overseas. Mario observes: Martinho, You are truly from Oz. You have an interesting concept Goa and Goans for someone who has apparently abandoned Goa for personal gain. Apparently you want Goa reserved for you. The world does not work that way, the last time I checked. Also, is anything you have written credible, given your failure to understand the history or geography of Goa vis a vis India?
Re: [Goanet] GOA FOR GOANS!
--- Anthony and Nolette de Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, All! This is Martinho de Souza from Oz calling! Greetings from Down Under! While civilized foreign tourists and stayers are welcome in Goa, Goa should be there for Goans - whether resident there or overseas. Mario observes: Martinho, You are truly from Oz. You have an interesting concept Goa and Goans for someone who has apparently abandoned Goa for personal gain. Apparently you want Goa reserved for you. The world does not work that way, the last time I checked. Also, is anything you have written credible, given your failure to understand the history or geography of Goa vis a vis India?
