Re: [Goanet] Direct Flights to Goa from USA

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Depends where in the US you're flying to, I guess. Dunno if this is
what you're looking for, but some of the flights via Seoul to the west
coast of the US are quicker and also more inexpensive.  --FN

On 03/07/06, Gabe Menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 03/07/06, neil rodrigues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> >   What is the shortest route to fly from USA (CT) to Goa, preferably 
> > avoiding a transit point/stopover in India.
> >
> >   Regards,
> >
> >   Neil Rodrigues
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Re: [Goanet] FIFA : Viva Portugal

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Forty years ago it meant one thing. Today it means another. Just goes
to show: time heals all wounds? Or, time wounds all heels? FN

PS: Even if this is only day-dreaming, it would have been great if
under-dogs Angola had to win, by some miracle. Even if Brasil had to
win, it would have been nice with the cup staying in the Third
World (I know some don't like this political term). Portugal or the
UK? Hobson's choice.

PPS: You might read this as a political statement, rather than a
sporting choice... if you do so, you probably wouldn't be wrong!

On 03/07/06, Paulo Colaco Dias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Cip, "Viva" does not have any political meaning at all let alone being
> associated with Salazar.
>
> "Viva" means cheers! It is a cheer and it is a word used by many Latin
> countries.
>
> Both "Viva" or "Forca" can be used and are commonly used.
>
> "Forca" had a special meaning during the Euro 2004 because of Nelly
> Furtado's chosen hymn (which was a great song and had a few parts in
> Portuguese - Forca Portugal).
>
> Best,
> Paulo.
>
> PS: I did say some weeks ago that a Portuguese speaking nation will win the
> world cup 2006. At that time, Brazil was still in the game, but now, there
> is only Portugal. So, 2 games remaining to see if it is going to be true
> this year! Viva Portugal!
>
> Given that there are now only 4 European teams and from those 4 teams
> Portugal holds the highest world ranking (latest FIFA rankings May 2006)
> http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index/0,2548,All-May-2006,00.html
> I think there is a very good chance that Portugal will win the world cup.
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Re: [Goanet] World Cup at Goanet

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

On 03/07/06, Rui Collaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As expected, the World Cup has found an echo on Goanet. Also as expected,
> some weird comments (to say the least), have begun to appear, after
> England's defeat (no coincidence at all).

Rui, do you believe that *everyone else* is weird when it comes to
making comments? My aim was to make some comments which were as weird
as your's. And I think I succeeded.

> Why is India, with more than a billion people, almost a non-entity in
> football? Why is India so backward in sports in general, as seen by the
> miserable results at the Olympic Games? This question was posed by the
> "Times of India", in a dedicated forum, right after the last Olympics. It
> questioned, reflecting the country's frustration, whether Indians were
> physically weak. I would rather blame wrong policies and underinvestment in
> sport. It is troubling, in any case, that one sixth of mankind should be so
> inept at most major modern sports. Perhaps too much attention being given to
> cricket, which will never be a mass-sport.  This is a theme well worth
> debating.

Of course, India is currently a poor country, with little pretensions
on the sportsfield. We're just bad at it. So, there's probably no need
to use the sports field as another arena for war, or for proving
nationalistic and neo-colonial points! FN

PS: Radio here is calling it an "all-European" semifinal affair. Sad
but true. Diversity would have helped.

PPS: I don't subscribe to the pseudo-patriotism over criticket either.
Headlines here say "West Indies conquered after 35 years" or "Best
Indies", after yesterday's cricket match. Crap! We have more important
goals to conquer -- poverty, illiteracy, inefficiency among them.
These are not all.
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[Goanet] Query about newkerala.com (was: Re: Goanet Digest, Vol 1, Issue 22)

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Yeah. http://www.newkerala.com/ happens to be a site with a whole lot
of India-related news online. You can't blame them if our newspapers
in Goa tend to be very sossegado! (Gomantak Times has a lot of news,
no website. Herald has a Drupal-based website which is meant more for
communities and non-profits! Navhind has a slick site, but has been
long known for giving the official version of things. Goa Today is yet
to find a model which will allow them to put out their news and
features, and yet not lose on subscribers.) FN

PS: As far as Goanet go(a)es, we're volunteer-driven. So, instead of
cursing the darkness, how about lighting a candle and helping us
improve our news network? Of course, this appeal is not just to
Anthony Pinheiro alone!

On 03/07/06, ANTHONY PINHEIRO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Goanet,
>
> Could anybody tell me what is this new kerala.  And what is it doing in Goa.
>
> http://www.newkerala.com/news3.
>
>
> Anthony Pinheiro\
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Re: [Goanet] FIFA : Viva Portugal

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Technically yes. But the connotation varied.

Forty years back, few people said the term referring to the World Cup.

But, I guess, any excuse to return to Lusostalgia is good enough if
that's your cup of tea. FN

On 04/07/06, Paulo Colaco Dias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Forty years ago, the word "Viva" meant exactly the same as today.
> The meaning of the word did not change, except in some vivid minds...
>
> "Viva" means Cheers or best wishes. That is it.
>
> Paulo.
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Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Hi Gadgil, With Portugal, the responses -- both of likes and dislikes
-- tend to be far deeper than is the case with our British colonial
cousins. Agreed. But then, Goa is a far smaller place, Lisbon ruled
(part of) the area for as long as 451 years, brought about some very
far-reaching changes in language or culture and religion here
(specially in the 'Old Conquests') and also probably took better care
of local elites (across the religions) and other priviledged sections
than did the British. But my friends from areas like the Bengal do say
that Anglophilia is not unpresent there. Maybe someone who knows the
situation better could correct me on that. FN

On 03/07/06, Vidyadhar Gadgil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I confess that I have always been mystified by this reported attitude of
> Goans towards Portugal, or is it a misrepresentation? One would have
> thought that after the experience of colonial rule, Goans would feel
> negatively towards the Portuguese. But here they are actually cheering
> them on?
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Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights.

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

I think we should make all migrants into Goa to wear a compulsory
badge (like I saw in Dachau, outside Munich ... and I hear they're
implementing for the religious minorities in Iran too!) Better still,
we could just stamp their foreheads with some derrogatory symbol.

Only problem, we are all migrants into Goa at some time or another.
Those shouting the loudest (the so-called "upper" castes), are
probably those who came in last. In this fight for resources, we use
whatever arguments are convenient by us. But what fun if Goa's own
aboriginal communities -- the Gavada, Kunbi, Velip and mis-named
'Dhangars' -- adopt this same logic! Basically, the law of reciprocity
should be acknowledged. Please stand up and let me know how many expat
Goans would prefer the same conditions to be set up against them in
their adopted homelands too! FN

On 04/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I for one support Floriano's stand against giving
> migrants voting rights. I know as surely as the sun
> shines, what Goa's future will be if it continues in
> the current vein. We might as well choose a nice name
> for Goa that rhymes with Bihar. Something along the
> lines of Gohar maybe.
>
> Incidentally there's an article in the paper how
> migrants are queuing up in Margao for their voting
> cards. Something many Goans are too jaded to
> endeavour. I can't say I blame them.
>
> Elisabeth
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Re: [Goanet] Goan's rejoicing with Portugal's win!

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

If you put it the other way round, one could argue: Goans (or a
section of them) have been supporting the Portuguese, so what's wrong
if some others choose to back "anti-Goa parties/rogue/anti-national
organisations"? I guess it just matters on how one looks at it! FN

On 05/07/06, Dominic Fernandes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Gadgil,
>
>  Well it is not new to Goa or Goans , we see Goans supporting Anti-Goa
> parties / rogue /anti-national organisations ( BJP/VHP/RSS/SS )as well as
> alien cultures and scripts (Marathi/Maharashtra) , so whats the Problem with
> some Goans supporting
>  Portugal or Portuguese Culture , isn't that proof enouch that the
> Portuguese were not that bad !
>
>  And don't Indians in the rest of India support England when they are
> playing against Pakistan ?
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Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Hi Gadgil, When I mention a section who retained loyalties to the
British, I didn't even remotely mean the Anglo-Indians. Being a
community which was part-British and part-Indian, their own
dual-loyalties could be well understood. It is nobody's case that
Goans are part-Portuguese (except a very miniscule segment). Nobody
doubts our, er, South Asian identity (to avoid a huge debate over
whether it's Indian, or how long back India existed, whether it was a
pre-1947 reality, etc...)

But, as in the case of some Goans, those who had it good during the
British Raj also retain their loyalties. This is not restricted to
Catholics alone, though it is also a fact that many Hindus did not
have it good during colonial times, what with its theocracy and open
discrimination till 1910.

And, for India as a whole, it's not just a case of one Niradh
Chaudhuri alone; but maybe the rest of India is a much wider sea, so
these complex-to-explain situations are less obvious.

The bond which Goa has with English obviously isn't much of a colonial
legacy. Hardly so. It has nothing to do with that, in fact.

Apart from the Arpora Fr Lyon's School and Saligao's Mater Dei, the
rest of the prominent English language schools (Britto's, St Mary's,
Loyola's, Don Bosco's, etc) all came up in the mid-forties in Goa. The
switchover from Portuguese to English was a post-1961 phenomenon,
except among those who migrated earlier to what was 'British Africa'
or other parts of the English-speaking world (including Bombay,
Karachi, and the many cantonment towns or railway centres).

Am not very sure that the opposition to colonial rule came from the
poor and the underpriviledged. Actually, it seems to be the contrary.
In India too, at least a section of the Dalits saw in the British a
force which could counter 'upper' caste dominance in their lives.

In some ways, it is understandable. I'm not saying the poor were less
"patriotic". They simply had too little at stake in a caste/class
defined society, which had watertight compartmentalisation and little
possibility of mobility. Besides, the more affluent sections -- not
that they were "more patriotic" -- also had more to lose.
Reinterpretations of the Pinto's Revolt (not involving too many
Pintos, incidentally), and viewing it as a battle for a spot in the
colonial sun, also suggest this.

In Goa, the situation is more complex in other ways too.

It somehow seems that the battle against the Portuguese, at least in
the "early" phase of its revival in the 1930s and 1940s, was led
predominantly by the Catholic Chardo, and specially the Chardo from
Salcete. (A brief look at the names of freedom-fighters of this period
tends to confirm this reality. Some prominent names, for instance,
Menezes Braganza, TB Cunha, FL Gomes ... though of an earlier period,
and hotbeds of anti-colonial protests in places like Cuncolim, etc)

This is a tentative view, and I would stand to be corrected by someone
who has looked at this angle deeper.

One needs a better explanation of why this happened, or why the others
took their time to get involved. Was the Brahmin Catholic more closely
incorporated in the colonial scheme of things (as was the case with
the Congress in the 1980s, while led to what could be interpreted as a
Catholic Chardo revolt leading to the PDF experiment)? Did the
subaltern castes have too little a stake anyway? Was it a question of
where leadership first took root? Was it simply peer-pressure and
accidents of history at work? Did heavier out-migration from Bardez
explain the geographical imbalance?

It would be an interesting exercise to map the rise of social ideas
among various social groups, specially on the political field. Just my
two paisa worth. FN

On 06/07/06, Vidyadhar Gadgil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes, there is plenty of Anglophilia in India, witness characters like
> Nirad C. Chaudhuri who made a religion out of it.
>
> But as you yourself point out, there is a clear class component to this.
> Why look at others, when we hold up a mirror to ourselves, there is
> probably a fascination with things British (or Portuguese, as the case
> may be). The bond we have with the English language is telling. To
> paraphrase the historian D.D. Kosambi (who incidentally happened to be a
> Goan), the Indian elites and middle-classes carry the mark of the
> coloniser upon their tongues, in the form of the English language.
>
> It has been persuasively argued by a number of historians (particularly
> those of the subaltern school) that the opposition to colonial rule was
> more among the poor, underprivileged sections of Indian society, rather
> than among the middle and upper classes, who probably played some
> comprador bourgeoisie kind of function and actually benefitted from
> colonial rule.
>
> In Goa as in t

Re: [Goanet] On what's good for Goa and Goans/response to Floriano

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

You would end up polling for opinions which are, in turn, created by
lobbies like newspapers (controlled by many groups, including vested
interests... we know about the long reality of the mining lobby
stranglehold over Goa's press, which thankfully is now declining, only
to see the vacuum filled by other interests).

But this doesn't mean that a political party can go about taking any
semi-Fascist approach, and then justify it on the grounds that this is
what "my peoples want" (as Churchill Alemao is every-ready to argue).

How do parties like the Goa Suraj ensure that the stands they take
aren't those of a tiny coterie, and against the interest of a
significant segment? As it is political parties have a serious
problem, given that they run like coteries, without a chance of a
leadership-change from below. And, no, I'm not talking only about the
big, bad wolves (aka the 'national' political parties) that Floriano
is mentioning. Does anyone know of anything but tokenistic elections
(if at all) amidst the MGP, UPG, UGDP, GLP, BBGP or any other
caste-based, community-restricted regional political that you know of?
FN

On 05/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dear Floriano,
> Don't listen to all this nonsense about polling for
> opinions. Why should you poll and then form an opinion
> as to what your manifesto should be. You should have a
> stand on issues and if I like your stand than I will
> vote for you. Sometimes you have to take a stand and
> convince people that what you are saying is in their
> interest. That is how revolutions and revolutionary
> ideas come about. That is what leadership is all
> about. I like your stand on migrant workers, I like
> your stand on the Tenancy Act, I like your stand on
> the Da Vinci issue. You already have a vote in me.
> Don't be discouraged!
>
> Sometimes, you have to take the tiger but its tail,
> rather than asking the tiger how it would like to be
> captured. Leave the politics by polling to Mario and
> the Americans :)
>
> Elisabeth
> -
>
> > No, Mario. I too know the importance of Opinion
> > polls. I have been in and
> > out of the US  where these are dime a dozen. All
> > that I am saying is that
> > GSRP does not have the resources yet for such
> > activities. Besides, we are
> > just a nascent political force.  What we say and
> > what we believe in is not
> > temporary. It will die with us, the GSRP.  Not to
> > sound pious or religious
> > or something, but it just crossed my mind that what
> > I was just going to say
> > was also said by a 'SON OF MAN' who is acclaimed all
> > over the world. Jesus,
> > when accosted with reality had said "MY TIME HAS NOT
> > COME" Likewise I say
> > our (GSRP's) time has not yet come.
> >
> > Again, I say No   to your query on polls . Properly
> > designed statistical
> > polling is NOT NONSENSE. We know it is effective.
> > But we do not have the
> > means YET. And we have all the patience in the world
> > to wait.
>
>
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Re: [Goanet] Moral code

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

On 06/07/06, Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Would you believe that the Catholic Church I attend
> has a life sized tapestry of Mahatma Gandhi alongside
> tapestries of several Christian saints, and a mural of
> Martin Luther King Jr. alongside one of Mother
> Theresa?  No separate captions, just two of the gang,
> right inside the church.

Mahatma Gandhi tends to be over-rated in the West. Though this is
off-topic, do you believe it's because of the media blitz that he's
benefitted from globally in the second half of the 20th century? FN
PS: Not many realise that while Gandhi had strong views *against* the
untouchability involving the lowest-of-the-low in the Indian caste
hierarchy (or outside of it), he didn't have any problem with the
caste system itself.
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Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights.

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

and innumerable others
speak Konkani in next to no time. The danger is that they would get
blocked by the walls we are building around them. Or, around
ourselves!

* We do have problem areas on hand, in that politicians use the
'outsider' vote to undercut the local population's interest (promoting
their own, in the bargain, or that of big business and vested lobbies,
for which they are amply compensated). Then, in turn, they fuel
chauvinism against the 'outsider', so that the people's attention gets
neatly diverted from more genuine issues. A win-win-win game as far as
the politician goes.

* Another major issue is the resentment building up across almost all
parts of India against the 'outsider'. If this is the case, who is the
'outsider'? It would seem that the resentment is against that class of
people who can migrate and grab all the benefits of 'developments'
(this includes people like you and me), while large swarms are kept
totally out in the cold!

To my mind, the biggest challenge is whether we can get our act
together, avoid taking up simplistic and emotive issues, and build up
as South India has managed with a great infrastructure in education
and health (never mind that this started initially through the
detestable capitation-college route).

Migration is a complex issue. It's probably best symbolised by the
real-estate syndrome in coastal Goa. Expats are lured, using their
love of Goa, to invest in their acre (or rooms) by the sea. Migrant
labour is brought in, to undercut higher local wages. Local lobbies,
and the businessman who's quick enough, cashes in on both sides.
Finally, we end up with Benidorms along the Calangute beach, and ugly
buildings if all occupied would cause a crash in the available
infrastructure. But who would want to sacrifice that locked flat, even
for the "love of Goa". Probably the "love of Goa" doesn't allow you
to!

A catch-22 situation indeed. And don't we need those 'outsiders' to
take care of our elderly parents, build our flats, play the role of
domestics, trawl for our fish and play in our football teams so that
Goa's name can go places?

It's more complex than it seems to be; though at first count it's nice
to blame someone else and feel good about it! Anyway, Elisabeth, you
have an open mind on this issue, which is a good thing... hence my
attempt to debate the issue without getting personal or trivial
(hopefully). FN

PS: Written at 6 am ... so am extremely sleepy. Still some more work
before I can go off to bed for the "night". Sorry for any errors that
might have crept in...

> 1. GDP per capita is a function of GDP and the
> population. One of the reasons Goa enjoys a high per
> capita income is not because it has been wonderfully
> industrious in managing its goods and services but
> because it has managed the other part of the equation,
> which is its population. Into this mix is going to
> emerge a burgeoning population, which neither national
> nor regional parties seem keen on addressing. Does Goa
> have a plan or is it alright with the shifting
> demographics?

> 2. There is going to be a cultural shift. Into a
> population that is fairly educated and relatively
> prosperous, we are influxing a population that is
> uneducated and poor. Do we have a plan to integrate
> the two or are we building parallel societies?
>
> 3. People need space and they need accommodation. Do
> we have a plan to accommodate the influx or are we
> going the way of Mumbai and Delhi, where sprawling
> slums spread like cancer. If we are then we might as
> well bid farewell to our tourism industry.
>
> 4. Whether we like to admit it or not, migration of
> people which is predominantly poor brings with it a
> criminal element. Do we have resources to deal with
> this or are we depending on those dogs again? :)
>
> 5. Societies transform themselves when seemingly
> blue-collared jobs morph into high-end services.
> Farmers become agriculturists, hair dressers become
> stylists, cooks become dietitians and chefs. This
> happens with concerted training, education and a
> labour supply unadulterated by cheap imports of it. Do
> we have any intent to transform our indigenous labour
> market into a highly competitive one, or are we just
> going to dilute it with cheap labour from India's
> impoverished states.
>
> Unmitigated migration is a problem. It is here. We
> cannot deal with it by giving into emotional rhetoric
> from either side of the the aisle. We have to deal
> with it and plan for it, with clear-headed
> objectivity. Democracies are seldom seamless
> organisations that serve the greater good. More often
> than not they are powered by vested interests that
> serve pockets of soci

Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

That's not unexpected. I think Portuguese cultural colonialism was
very strong, together with the switch in religion they effected. Add
these two facts to the reality that the Portuguese managed to keep the
general population very apolitical (and we can't just blame Salazar
for that) inspite of having tools like the printing press in Goa right
from 1556!

On top of that was the reality that Goans did fairly well for
themselves (in a middle-class sense, not like, say, the Parsis who
were into trade and enterprise big time, and some even connected to
the opium exports to China). So, understandably, there was little of a
fire-in-the-belly. Or any need to feel dissatisfied with the system.
Even if to survive, a large section of the population had to scour the
world. Literally.

Freedom fighters in Mumbai admit that they had a tough time "rousing"
the Goan population out of their smug existence.

But, to be fair, the few who revolted did so in a rather drastic
manner. Whether it's a T B Cunha or a F N Souza and many, many more.
Is it any coincidence that those who fought the Portuguese also did so
against "their" religion?

By contrast, the British (and, to a lesser extent, the French)
probably just knew when it was best to call it a day! FN

On 07/07/06, Gabe Menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 07/07/06, Frederick FN Noronha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi Gadgil, When I mention a section who retained loyalties to the
> > British, I didn't even remotely mean the Anglo-Indians. Being a
> > community which was part-British and part-Indian, their own
> > dual-loyalties could be well understood. It is nobody's case that
> > Goans are part-Portuguese (except a very miniscule segment). Nobody
> > doubts our, er, South Asian identity (to avoid a huge debate over
> > whether it's Indian, or how long back India existed, whether it was a
> > pre-1947 reality, etc...)
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Re: [Goanet] Goa SuRaj ani Balkanisation?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

On 08/07/06, Jose Colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On the other hand looking at West Bengal, the best option would be the
> Communist Party

Rhetoric apart, one could point out that the Communist Party of India
(Marxist) running the government of West Bengal (and, when it
alternates with the Congress in Kerala), is for the most a social
democratic party  wooing industry, accepting private capital
investments with gratitude, and having a few add-ons related to
concepts like equality. FN
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Re: [Goanet] The party or the principle? Response to Fred

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

e hand, and the Social Democratic Party
of Germany  on the other), the Greens merely got a chance to squeeze
into an alliance.

On 08/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've been thinking about this the whole morning.
> Actually your night. What comes first, the party or
> the principle. Always the chicken and egg conundrum.
>
> I think a party has to base its platform on what they
> bring to the table. However repugnant or irrelevant it
> maybe at the time. Sometimes it takes years for their
> concerns to become representative of the majority, as
> in the case of the Green party in Germany. They
> peddled their "environmental platform" for decades
> before it caught attention at the national level.
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Re: [Goanet] Goa Su-Raj and migrant voting rights - Fred

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Hi Mario, Your name-calling and flame-baiting seems to reflect your
inability to debate issues and ideas, and take the easy way out of the
situation! FN

On 08/07/06, Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Che Guevarra did not have to worry about such
> niceties, because for him and Fidel, who ran a
> government of dictatorial men and not of laws, it was
> their way or the deep blue sea [heading for Florida].
> His Goan followers may dream of having such
> revolutionary power, but are unlikely to atain it.
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Re: [Goanet] FRIDAY BALCAO:Migration and family planning:factors for Goa's population growth ?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Hi Elisabeth: You're slanting the debate by saying, "We are given to
understand that migration into Goa is not an issue in Goa."

Nobody has said this. It *is* a huge issue in Goa, as in almost all
other parts of the globe. It is just a few voices who are questioning
whether these issues are the ones that *really* matter, or red
herrings meant to distract attention from other more pressing problems
-- as the Shiv Sena has been effectively doing for the last four
decades in Bombay/Mumbai.

It's quite another matter that the case against regional chauvinism --
even if supported by only a very few -- has some strong arguments,
which are hard to counter when you're taking on this issue at a
rational level. I hope you will accept what I'm saying, without
meaning to be offensive. FN

On 10/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Mr Martins,
> Is this migration into Goa or migration out of Goa. We
> are given to understand that migration into Goa is not
> an issue in Goa. When the issue is brought up, emotive
> words like "ethnic cleansing" are used. For the sake
> of us NRIs, perhaps you could detail some points that
> will be up for discussion, so that we may contribute
> our thoughts on the matter, however irrelevant the
> voice of an NRI maybe deemed in Goa.
>
> Many thanks,
> Elisabeth
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[Goanet] Women buying sex in Goa too!

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

The subject-line should read: Women *too* buying sex in Goa too!

I'm not so sure thought that "buying" sex necessarily means enjoying
it. To me, this is another means of the capitalist society's
more-is-better sales pitch; and we know it isn't necessarily true. But
it keeps both men and women in their proper position (so to speak)
, while those in control of our unfair societies are laughing all the
way to the bank.

Such thinking even counters the basic economic 'law of diminishing utility'.

(Put simplistically, as every student who encountered it in the
eleventh standard Economics class of Ms Ferdi at Xaviers would know:
if I eat one apple, I get X units of pleasure. If I eat two apples
maybe I get 2X units of pleasure. By the time I'm into my third apple,
the additional utility from each apple starts declining. By the time
I'm into my 20th apple in the same session, I'm getting positive
displeasure -- or pain -- from each additional apple eaten Which
makes me wonder, doesn't the apple analogy suggest that economics, as
we study it today, was thought of in some cold, WASPish country where
this fruit is grown?)

Men have been "buying" sex for generations mainly because of their
political power, and the fact that it's so disgustingly cheap! When
doing some work in the Baina red-light area, I was shocked to realise
that a woman could be dehumanised at the price of an inexpensive
rice-plate! This is not justifiable, but if the price was a bit more
fair, at least the whole equation would be so, so badly skewed.

The fact that the bulk of these women were Dalits (from the more
deprived segments of the Indian cl-aste hierarchy, also helped to make
them so prone to this hazardous and tiresome work.)

Linux Torvalds, the Finnish geek who wrote to Linux kernel that became
a critical part of the Free Software/Open Source movements, once had
this quote. He said, "Software is like sex. It's best when it is
free."

Of course, this was meant to make you think of the inequities of
proprietorial software, where the richest man in the world, who is
supporting so many philanthrophic activities we are now told, prices
software so atrociously high that virtually 90% of the planet is
reduced to being "pirates". [BTW, do you use software which doesn't
violate copyright and EULA rules, do you pay atrociously high prices
for your software, or do you use Free-as-in-freedom Software?]

But, on the other hand, the issue of "free" sex has also come a
generation away from where it started in the 'sixties. Do ideas like
this *really* benefit women? Or is it just a sophisticated
justification for giving men what they want anyway?

The question really is whether women (all all others lower-down in the
pecking order) can get sex on terms which are not detrimental to them.
Of course, this is not for me to discuss, but for every individual to
decide on herself (or himself). FN

PS: In addition to all that is said above, it's not simply a matter of
gender alone. There's also the question of which *class* of women
you're referring to. Can migrant women from Karnataka also be "buying
sex in Goa too"? Or is it a case like the real estate sector, where
Goa is seen a huge building boom, but anyone with even a middle-class
job here can scarcely afford to buy a home of his/her own?

PPS: BTW, just wondering where did Elisabeth descend from? A politician
who reads Goanet in Goa was actually surprise enough to comment to me
privately about her posts! As for me, I think she's Goanet's secret
weapon to get us all into thinking mode, and we are forced to use our
otherwise dormant grey cells instead of just our male aggression and a
mix of insulting and meaningless name-calling.

On 10/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm so glad women are finally enjoying sex as freely
> and casually as men. It is only the human species that
> places constraints on sex under the guise of morality.
> How strange. Cornel, if you're reading this, it was
> Rousseau who said, "man is born free but everywhere he
> is in chain". I looked it up just for you. Wikipedia
> will do it everytime ;)
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Re: [Goanet] The rock solid Christian moral code

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Hi Gilbert, With due respect, this is unfair... you're poking fun at
Elisabeth's gender, on account of a fact you got wrong. Elisabeth is
the best judge of what *she* believes in. And the best we can do is
take her word for it! FN

On 10/07/06, Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Elisabeth,
>
> I pledge to always remember that...
> As a woman, you have a God-given right to keep changing your mind.:=))
> You can oscillate between a "full blown buffet agnostic" and a "borem 
> supurlem Catholic."
> Don't be guilty!  The guys call it "provisional knowledge". (very 
> intellectual!)
> The Goans call it AC<>DC (Alternating Current<> Direct Current):=))
>
> You and others may wonder where do I come up with these rapid-fire responses.
> Lying in bed on a lazy weekend.
> Now 20 years ago, I was busy doing something different.
> Kind Regards, GL
>
> -- Elisabeth specially wrote:
>
> I am not a cafeteria Catholic!

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Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights./response to Fred

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

On 10/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Fred,
> The point I was trying to make about India, which has
> been misinterpreted is that, immigration into India is
> not an issue. There aren't large numbers of people

Haven't you heard of North East India? Haven't you heard of Assam, and
what lead to killings, and the whole AGP-style "ethnic cleansing"
there?

> trying to get into India. The one time, we did have a
> huge influx of refugees from what was then E.Pakistan,
> we "liberated" the country and formed a new one called
> Bangladesh, so as to keep them exactly where they
> were.

That's why Bal Thackeray finds it easy to issue call-to-arms against
"illegal Bangladeshi immigrants" in places as far away as
Bombay/Mumbai in recent years too? While there is some element of
exaggeration in his depiction of the situation, migration into India
is an issue concerning a few millions *only*. :-)

But the more connected issue is that of migration *within* India.
Almost every state feels swamped by some "outsiders". Why? This is
more relevant to our debate...

> In another perspective, Canada, New Zealand and upto
> recent times, Australia didn't have a problem with
> migration. Because these countries have a deficit to
> begin with and need people just to sustain habitation.

But they're still very racist and opportunistic when it comes to
deciding *which* people they should take, right?

> My purpose in trying to address the migrant issue is
> not to define who the "other" is, although it
> inevitably becomes part of the debate. As I stated
> earlier, I am a follower of Malthus and as such I
> cannot ignore the numbers game. It's all a numbers
> game to me and what is a viable, sustainable number
> for Goa.

Rev. Thomas Robert Malthus, FRS, is proven wrong in almost every
possible way by the example of Goa itself! "Population" Malthus'
thoughts are better suited to the East India Company College at
Haileybury in Hertfordshire, than to the needs of a society emerging
out of colonialism.

In An Essay on the Principle of Population, first published in 1798,
Malthus made the famous prediction that population would outrun food
supply, leading to a decrease in food per person. Goa is growing less
food, but eating more!

According to this Anglican country parson, only natural causes (eg.
accidents and old age), misery (war, pestilence, and above all
famine), moral restraint and vice (which for Malthus included
infanticide, murder, contraception and homosexuality) could check
excessive population growth. In Goa, it is none of these that has
controlled population. It simply has been out-migration, education for
women, and affluence that meant the middle-classes (and affluent) can
ironically no longer 'afford' to have as many children as when they
were poor. Ever wondered why the number of kids has dropped to 12 in
our grandparents' generation to 1.8 per Goan couple in our times
[Don't ask what happens to the missing .2 ;-) ]

Malthus favoured moral restraint (including late marriage and sexual
abstinence) as a check on population growth. This has happened
automatically in Goa, thanks to outmigration, the growth of education,
and a change in our stage of demographic transition.

Trust an Anglican country parson to make these proposals only for the
working and poor classes. So now we have a precedent which to impose
on the migrant "non-Goan". Meaning, the poor ones only, of course. FN

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Re: [Goanet] False Adverts, and a possible Conspiracy of Carelessness?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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On 11/07/06, Jose Colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 5: when asked to publicly identify the GUYS who HE(Fred Noronha) says "
> propound this colonialism-started-in-1961 theory":
>
> Frederico Noronha wrote on GoaNet May 31 2006:  mainly those Colaco
> types. Bernardo, Paulo and Jose, for instance. >

> When will this "colonialism-started-in-1961 theory"  LIE by Frederico
> Noronha ever be substantiated or withdrawn?

This is my point of view, and I am entitled to hold it. I don't see
how you can label someone else's perspective a LIE (that too, in caps)
so persistently, just because you have access to a media called
cyberspace a few keys away.

If you believe my perspective is wrong, please enlighten me why. I
have arrived at the same after reading a large number of postings and
trying to make sense of the nonsense you write (apologies for the
strong language, it probably needs to be said).

If you or the other Colacos belive my understanding of your position
(that "colonialism-started-in-1961-in-Goa") is a misreading of your
position, please enlighten me so that I can correct my understanding
of where you stand.

It would be particularly interesting to hear from you if you believe
that (i) the Portuguese were indeed a colonial power in Goa, and this
was not merely an "overseas province" as Salazar once sought to make
it out to be AND/OR (ii) post-1961 rule (however flawed it may have
been and is still) opened up more space for growth for more people in
Goa as compared to the pre-1961 version AND/OR (iii) the post-1961
regimes here aren't really just a pure colonial form of government,
but if at all a hybrid that involves significant local participation
and involvement, and local players are responsible in significant part
for what has gone wrong here (and also, as a collorary, what has
worked) over the past four-and-half decades. --FN

PS: I would appreciate if you could show the decency of calling me by
the name I call myself, rather than the one I was born with... even if
you see a conspiracy in the switch-over! I've been called multiple
names at different points in my life, and my own preferences are clear
(as below).
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Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: On what's good for Goa and Goans

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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On 11/07/06, Joe Vaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> First, lets get things right. I don't have any adopted country; the only
> country I "adopted" —at birth— is my homeland Goa, which I love and cherish.
>   Ipso facto, to talk about Goa, is my birthright; that's why I take great
> interest in happenings in Goa, rather than the West or elsewhere.  Although,
> I had open offers and opportunities to settle in the west, I chose not to.
> Therefore, your presumption on my "adopted country" is dead wrong!   I am
> very much Goan, as you are, (except that I am NOT a journalist by
> profession) but would still like to present my ideas and views occasionally,
> as time permits, if that's allowed on Goanet.  I sincerely hope you will not
> find that to be terribly awful, or inconsistent with the Goanet rules and
> guidelines. :-)

Joe, you're going off-track and derailing the discussion. All that I
say is that you obviously don't understand the nuances of the issues
-- you don't have to be a journalist to understand it, but you must do
your homework -- and you're shooting in the dark in the hope that some
criticism sticks!

> Albeit, I may have ruffled some feathers; nevertheless, the points I am
> making are irrefutable facts, I see that you agree with 90%+ of the content
> posted

Rubbish, Joe. Sorry to say this, but I believe you -- like Jose Colaco
-- have a very shallow understanding of the Goa media. It's clear you
don't like it (with good reason, perhaps) and any stick is good enough
to beat it.

> If there is general agreement that the Press and journalists in Goa are not
> doing justice to journalism, by way of responsible reporting, that fact
> should be acknowledged, —even though it's a bitter pill to swallow.

Please tell me on what basis you are making a broad, sweeping
statement like this. You could say this of me, for sure. You know much
of my work ... and it's all out there in the open, waiting to be
judged. But my point is you don't know the work of 90% of the
journalists. So, on what basis are you drawing your conclusions? This
is unfair...

Don't get me wrong: I'm not defending the media in Goa. When you get
down to looking at it, you could possibly find out that the crisis is
far more serious than you make it out to be. All that I'm pointing out
is that it's patently unfair to jump to conclusions without even
studying the issue at hand properly and adequately.

> Now, regarding reporting in Goa, more specifically in the e-media, we find a
> few vocal people who (despite not being journalists) are doing a whole lot
> more reporting and issue based critiquing than most journalists, who
> consciously choose to practice selective and often biased journalism.

As far as trying to rake up a competition of sorts among different
posters from Goa, I won't fall for that. All I'd say is, good for
them. As supporters of the alternative media and diversity in this
space, we must continue to doing all I can to get more perspectives on
board. If it throws up interesting writing, that's great.

All of us have our own weaknesses and strengths. It is for the reader
to judge who does what kind of a job. But please don't mis-judge those
whom you are not reading! Give them a fair chance, please! Or else,
you could well be as unfair as the press you are critiquing. FN

PS: It's easy for a Jose Colaco to castigate the closeness of
journalists and regimes he obviously didn't like. (There were quite a
few presspersons who have been close to Congress or Dr Willie-type
politicians too! And some who have been close to BJP and have got
rewarded by the Congress!) But there are also others who have stood
up. If you want to know the other side of the story, please read the
book of 'breach of priviledge' cases filed against journalists between
1964 and 1994 (if one recalls right). Unfortunately, it's not
available in digital format... and isn't going to reach cyberspace
merely by some hot air being blow from the Bahamas or North America!
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Re: [Goanet] Goa Suraj and migrant voting rights./response to Fred

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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On 11/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Are you saying the poor should be absolved from
> showing restraint when it comes to having children,
> just because they are poor? Isn't that
> counter-intuitive?

There's no question of "restraint". People have fewer kids when they
become a bit affluent (or middle-class enough) to ensure the children
they have survive, when their womenfolk get access to education, and
when they aren't so blown-out poor that every pair of hands is merely
an asset in the family from even the age of four! No wonder they say
"economic development is the best contraceptive"! And this has worked
in Goa, no matter what the Pope feels about it. People just begin to
have fewer kids.

Demography is based on the premise that "your (black or brown or poor)
kids are bad, but mine are good". No wonder Singapore can think of a
subsidy for graduates to have babies! No wonder that nobody gets the
brainwave of the need to shift people from population-surplus areas of
the globe to population-deficit areas, as Europe did with huge
landmasses in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand, and tried to do
the same in Asia and Africa too.

> It's funny you should say that Malthus has been proven
> wrong. Unfortunately it is countries like India and
> China that ultimately prove him right. Despite GDP
> growth rates in the two digits, even Thomas Friedmann
> has had to acknowledge that the vast majority of rural
> India and China is desperately poor. Can you imagine
> why? Because wealth cannot be created at the speed of
> light. Wealth generation to bring so many into the
> fold will take several revolutions of trickle
> economics.

There's another factor here. People can't eat GDP. Also, with a badly
undervalued rupee, no matter how much India exports, it's never going
to be able to improve the poorest of the poor. We can only do that by
playing around with statistics ;-)

FN

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[Goanet] FAQ for nurses visas to the US... Was: Re: Nurse-Training Opportunity

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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http://chennai.usconsulate.gov/employment_based_visas.html

Employment Based Visas for Nurses
Frequently Asked Questions

I want to go to the U. S. and work as a registered nurse. How do I do this?

First, you have to have a valid job offer from a U.S. based employer.
The U.S. employer must obtain Department of Labor approval to hire a
foreigner and will then file a special petition with U.S. Citizenship
and Immigration Services (USCIS). . U.S. based employers can petition
for nurses in both non-immigrant (H-1B temporary worker) and
employment based immigrant visa (EB-3) categories. Both categories
have a maximum number of visas that can be issued each year

See the URL above for the full text, if interested.
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Re: [Goanet] False Adverts, and a possible Conspiracy of Carelessness -2

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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JC: You're as slippery as they come!

Apart from using the word *lie* seven times in your post, and giving
us a lecture on the finer nuances of the English language, you haven't
made clear your position on what you perceive as colonialism
(specially after all those queries about applying for a Portuguese
citizenship).

This debate is a waste of time, maybe not for you, but surely for the
bulk of the readers of Goanet. Surely, I won't oblige in helping you
to drag down the level of discussion on the mailing list you love to
hate. FN

On 11/07/06, Jose Colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> re FN 3: I will certainly advise you of my position. However, I will NOT
> respond to the wishes of the poster of LIES - unless those LIES are
> withdrawn.
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Re: [Goanet] Recent migration to Britain: Some small hints at parallels with migration to and from Goa.

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

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 There is no better, value for money, guest house.
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---
Dear All, Any suggestions on how to promote integration in Goa? Or, is
it only good for countries like the US? Would anyone say that
integration is a bad thing in their adopted homelands (even if the
adoption is temporary, for a few years, a few months, or a few days)?

Obviously, I didn't like being treated like a potential hijacker (just
because of the colour of my skin and hair) while flying through
Copenhagen. Likewise, I happened to be a student in (then) West
Berlin, when Germany won the 1990 world cup, and saw what those huge
outpourings of "nationalism" meant to my African classmates. (Anyone
from the continent then was simply, "Cameroon".)

Elisabeth, the "death" and "rebirth" metaphor you use is an emotive
one. Fact is, Goa is transforming. It has been for as long as history
has been recorded... why attempt to freeze it in time? I'm sure the
Gavada, Kunbi, Velip and "Dhangar" populations would have had a very
similar lament -- though obviously no access to cyberspace -- when the
"Goa" of their times was being drastically transformed.

Question is how does Goa cope with this change, in a way that's fair
to the most of the people here, and not just some tiny sectional
interest-group. FN

On 12/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The US is very dichotomous on this issue. On the one
> hand there is lot of lipservice to "tolerance,
> equality" etc, but save for some very small pockets in
> places like California, the vast majority in America
> is racially divided and non-integrated. Please don't
> let Mario tell you otherwise. I can almost hear him
> arrive at this post on his Hummer. African Americans
> have their own subculture, which does not merge with
> mainstream America. Latinos have their own subculture
> as well. Infact you could say, America is a wonderful
> melting pot of segregated lives.
>
> I hope for Goa's sake it is able to find a path that
> benefits everyone in our society but honestly it is
> very hard to keep that hope. The Goa I knew is dying
> for sure and I can only hope its rebirth will be
> glorious.
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Re: [Goanet] [Fwd: looking for Mr. Tony Remedios]

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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---
On 12/07/06, Herman Carneiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Subject: looking for Mr. Tony Remedios
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date:Tue, July 11, 2006 10:05
> --
>
> I met Tony in Austria while skiing in 1958 and have had correspondence with
> him off and on, until 1980.   He is an engineer and lived in Bombay with wife
> and children.   He vacationed in Goa.   I wonder if he is still alive and
> if he
> lives in Goa full time.   I googled his name and your web page came up.
> Thanks
> Anneke Tabachnikoff-Bom
> New Hampshire, USA

I knew a prominent Mumbai-based engineer of the same name. If it's the
person you're looking out for, his contacts are:

 A P Remedios, BSc(Eng)(London), MICE(UK), Regn No.32553976
CHARTERED ENGINEER (Civil)- CONSTRUCTION CONSULTANT & TRAINER
3/20, Pushpa Vihar, Opp Colaba PO, Mumbai. 400 005. India
Phone: (91 22) 215 1993, 218 9300, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Goanet] SOCORRO IT PARK:3 Panchayats protest land acquisition

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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---
Not very surprising. When I was passing through Pune earlier this
year, the people there too were protesting about land being taken over
by IT parks.

While I am hugely optimistic about the potential of (some forms of)
information technology, the current kind of 'development' we are
seeing appears to be driven by the needs of corporations, not people.
Also governments are acting like real-estate speculators, and passing
some of the benefits of their buy-cheap  (rather, acquire-dirt-cheap)
policies to industry, with the simplistic rationale that this creates
jobs ... and sometimes with even more dubious intent of gaining from
under-the-table deals themselves.

Don't we know of the former minister who tried to sell land to the
accused in the Bombay blasts of 1992 (when the city was still called
by that name)? Of course, Parulekar was later cleansed by immersing
himself in the holier-than-thou holy river called the BJP! FN

On 12/07/06, Goa Desc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Twelve members of Socorro, Salvador-do-Mundo and Pomburpa
> village panchayats have registered a strong protest with Deputy
> Collector, Mapusa, Bardez against the acquisition of land for the
> proposed Information Technology Park--
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Re: [Goanet] Goanet News Bytes * July 12, 2006 * Security tightened in Goa after Mumbai blasts... Ulhas Kamat is Goa's director for NRI Affairs...

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

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---
Hi Gabe, I guess if it's a matter that arises primarily because of
your non-resident status (and being out of Goa), then you should take
it up not just with Ulhas Kamat but with Eduardo Faleiro (the NRI
Commissioner).

How effective that will be, I cannot say, knowing the vagaries of
government -- which works sometimes and sometimes (more often?)
doesn't. Someone I know is still trying to get to the bottom of why he
was being deprived a visa to visit Goa for many years, without any
specific reason being given!

On the other hand, if this is a case of a general nature, then
obviously it could be unfair to burden an infrastructure set up with a
specialist agenda to take it on.

It must be said however that the tenancy laws of the 1960s and 1970s
(particularly the mundkar, or homestead-tenancy laws) have been
overwhelmingly anti-expat in impact. Many reading this would know how
it worked: you're based abroad, give that friendly neighbour your home
(or part of it) to stay in and look after, and suddenly the laws
change and s/he becomes owner with many actual-owners left homeless.

It might be nice if we on Goanet could spend some time to put this
issue on the agenda, rather than just indulging in infighting and
name-calling and spending so much of our energies to make the point of
how great Portuguese colonialism was in its civilising mission. FN

On 13/07/06, Gabe Menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Fred,
> I have a problem regarding my property in Goa, do you think Ulhas
> Kamat is the right person to approach? If so I would appreciate an
> email/mail address.
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Re: [Goanet] *** Goa's education conundrum: English or mothertongue, choice isn'tyours

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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  Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation.
---
With the number of private professional colleges coming up, specially
around South India, the availability is speedily becoming less of an
issue. Quality of education is fair to good (after all, many of us
were eeducated in IndiaI. I understand even the PCC College of
Engineering at Verna has NRI-quota seats.

While these seats tend to be costlier than what a local student would
pay, it's still far more inexpensive than what one would pay for
education elsewhere. Perhaps another issue where expats need to lobby
with the Commissioner for NRIs.

Of course this needs to be done in a cautious manner. If expats ask
for too much, they would be seen as depriving local students of their
seats. On the other hand, if the fees are too high, it would be unfair
to the expats.

But, in a win-win scenario, NRIs could get more seats at a reasonable
price, and thus help to also build the educational networks here by
paying somewhat higher fees (which is probably only equitable, given
their earning-capacity and the fact that they have not been taxpayers
here). FN

On 13/07/06, Winnie Fernandes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:30:48 -0400
> From: Constancio Manuel Gomes
>
> My son is schooling in Indian Embassy school in Saudi Arabia. He is in STD
> VIII.- CBSE Board. Many of our family friends sent their children to India
> to continue their studies from STD VIII in India thinking that they will
> have problems later on because of NRI quota.
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Re: [Goanet] Goa: British Actress Lucie Eadon Traces Her Roots in India

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

y keep
on living and smiling. This intrigues Tom, who came down to
Goa to find out more.

Says he, after his recent stay here: "I think Indians are
very creative in solving problems. I understand my dad in
some ways much better now and really wished to spend some
time here with him. I never knew who I really was ("what I
consist of") until I learned about the other side of my
origin. I really want to check my roots in Candolim one day,
ask if there are some distant relatives still living here --
most of them are spread over the globe or have gone to
Bombay. I'm really sad about not speaking Konkani or Hindi
and I won't be able or have time to learn it in the near
future."

Tom's elder sisters also spent some time of their life in
Goa. "It gives you some answers on some questions you never
asked or thought of before, but which just where somewhere in
your subconsciousness. I tell you I feel better since I came
here which doesn't mean I felt bad before. It's just like the
more you know about yourself the 'stronger' you get," he
says, not without a touch of nostalgia.

Tom Fernandes says he really loves "the Goan way of live".
Excluding, of course, the gossip which means people have "an
eye on everything and talk about everything with everybody".
He also dislikes the inequality between men and women.

Perhaps it's more than just nostalgia. Finding out who you
are, and where you come from, could lend a sense of
perspective. Even if without the largely negative risk of
carrying with it feelings of superiority or inferiority
linked to institutions like caste, which cut across religious
lines in Goa to affect almost everyone.

Cliff Pereira, who is one of those searching for his roots,
outlines the broad picture. "Much of our Goan history
(especially of the diaspora) has not been documented. Caught
between two empires, Goans have been dubbed Asian, Eurasian,
Mixed Race, Canarian, or Portuguese and have been
conveniently ommited in British and Portuguese history, as
well as that of newly independent countries (e.g. Uganda and
Pakistan). This needs to be corrected," Pereira argues
strongly. He quotes the Swahili saying: when two elephants
fight, it is the grass that is trampled.

But now, he feels "quite proud" to be a Briton of Goan origin
"with a shared history in Goa, British India and colonial
Africa". For, he says, his identify is "embedded in a
colourful mosaic of history covering three continents". This,
he feels, is something to be proud of. "If only I knew what I
now know in my teens, I would have had the drive that I so
needed," he regrets.

Back in the UK, Cliff Pereira stores his 'family databases'
on a computer floppy. He now has access to the British
Library and its Oriental and Indian Office Collection which,
he says, has uncovered a whole generation of Goans who lived
in Aden and worked for the British East India Company, the
Bombay Presidency and the Royal Navy.

In Malaysia, Morris' own desire to trace his ancestry is
two-fold. Firstly, he wants to see how far back he can trace
the lineage of both his wife (a Goan) and himself (Malyalee).
His wife is a Fernandes, and he found a family-tree drawn by
her uncle, which traces her father's side to around 1839.
That family tree is peppered with typically-Goan surnames --
Rodrigues, Fernandes, Dias, Monteiros and Furtados.

In addition, Morris has a long-term goal of converting
existing Catholic Church records into digital format, so that
anyone wanting to trace their lineage can do so easily. This,
he suggests, may be in the form of actually scanning of
Church records, which would end up as a very-large computer
file. Alternatively, it could be a simple record stating
births, marriages and deaths. Further details could be made
available with a Web-master, he suggests.

Says he: "One person cannot possibly maintain such a website.
My idea is a link between different records. Do you think
such an idea is feasible? From my own search, I know that
there would be people looking for such links."

Goa Archives have copies of wills and property deeds. Says Dr
Gracias: "I don't think there are any short cuts if you are
looking beyond four generations. The work is time-consuming
but interesting."


CAPTION FOR PHOTO: Rodrigues of Margao (first name unknown),
a band-master, from the 1890s, possibly in Mozambique. His
family resided in Goa, and relatives in Malaysia are
currently searching for links. His daughter married a
Cornelio Dourado from Arlem.

CAPTION FOR PHOTO 2: Old scene from another world... Panjim
from past decades, as shot by early photography house Souza &
Paul. From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Sep 29 01:02:40 2001


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Re: [Goanet] Goan Freedom Fighters.

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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---
For too long there has been a concerted effort by the tiny but
vociferous colonialism-started-in-1961 brigade to ludicrously extend
the believable 'some freedom-fighters are crooks' reality to mean 'all
freedom-fighters are dishonest', and that 'there was no idealism in
the anti-colonial campaign' or even to suggest 'we would be better off
had Portuguese colonialism had continued in Goa'.

While Paulo has every right to his views and opinion, as does AVF, I
would only like to state, for the record, that there are other
perspectives among the Goan community.

Specifically, that we certainly aren't all supportive of the pre-1961
state of affairs, a colonial-plutocracy mix in Goa as he is. At the
same time, people like me reserve the right to be as critical as
needed of the way things are in contemporary Goa, this doesn't mean we
want to head back to the past. Hence, while I will not fight shy to
highlight the findings of the latest CAG report, I will not obviously
use this as a justification for making a case in favour of an
obviously unjust pre-1961 situation. --FN

On 13/07/06, Paulo Colaco Dias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to congratulate Veronica for his most sincere post.
>
> It certainly takes courage and determination to talk about certain things of
> our past, especially when many of our brothers and sisters refuse to accept
> the truth despite clear evidence and witnesses accounts like this one from
> Veronica.
>
> I second Veronica and applaud Godfrey Gonsalves, Floriano, Valmiki and all
> the others for creating the right levels of awareness of this problem.
>
> Best
> Paulo Colaco Dias.

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Re: [Goanet] [Fwd: Goan language newspaper]

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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---
Sunaparant doesn't have a website. You can email them at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and find out if the publication is available
in Mumbai/Bombay. Or phone them at 0091.832.2425277/88  --FN

On 13/07/06, Herman Carneiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From:"arvind kulkarni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date:Wed, July 12, 2006 11:50 pm
> To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> --
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> I would like to know the web site for paper called
> 'SUNAPARANT'.Also pl inform me whether the newspaper
> is available in Mumbai.
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Re: [Goanet] Goanet News Bytes * July 12, 2006 * Security tightened in Goa after Mumbai blasts... Ulhas Kamat is Goa's director for NRI Affairs...

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May
 There is no better, value for money, guest house.
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---
Sorry, I don't have a clue. In fact, I don't even yet know how I can
get a copy of this book in Goa itself! As you would perhaps know,
books from Goa tend to be mostly self-published and, consequently,
poorly distributed. It's very difficult to find a copy of a book you
want, and often one learns of its existence only once it is out of
print. One service that helps is the Other India Bookstore, which
stocks all possible books on Goa it can find, and then sells them (by
mail order too) after some mark-up on the price. I'm not sure if they
have this book yet, as it is only just released. FN

On 14/07/06, Jim Fernandes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> How can I get a copy of this book in the US?
>
> * New book on Goa: Goa through the mist of history from
>   10,000 BC-AD 1958 by Luis de Assis Correia, release today.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim F.
> New York.
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Re: [Goanet] Fwd: Re: On what's good for Goa and Goans

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

s for The Goan Observer, as some
expats have thought fit doing, IMNSHO)? How do we sharpen our
understanding of how the press works, and all its limitations? Can we
ensure that we get more civic-minded youngsters to be part of the
media? This list is endless... But any amount of hot air alone won't
fill it up.
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Re: [Goanet] Fwd: YOUR HELP SOLICITED TO PASS ON THIS EMAIL TO FRIENDS & RELATIVE

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

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---
Please take a look at http://www.indianblooddonors.com -- a  more
efficient way of sharing blood. FN

On 13/07/06, George Pinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- VICTOR RODRIGUES <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> In response to the recent spate of Bomb Blasts that has rocked Bombay
> (India),  a vast number of causalities have been reported to may local
> hospitals in Bombay. Many of our fellow citizens have been wounded and
> injured. And are in urgent need of blood supply--
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Re: [Goanet] Your mail - migrant voting rights

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

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---
Assuming for a moment your argument is right, then please tell us how
you reconcile the following:

* You seem to be talking about the Catholic Goan, whose ancestors have
a shared sense of history in 451 years (or thereabouts, lesser in the
case of Bardez, Salcete and Mormugao) of colonial Portuguese history.
In the case of the so-called "Novas Conquistas", which had a similar
colonial experience (from the eighteenth century) to that of "British
India", there isn't any great cultural, religious or linguistic gaps
with the neighbouring areas of India. So could you clarify what
precisely you are talking about?

* The persisting Hindu-Catholic divide in Goa also seems to stem from
this very divide in how we perceive our past. I would posit that
Portuguese colonialism left a major unsorted problem by conquering (or
taking over by annexation) Goa in two parts, one in the early
sixteenth century (which underwent the fervor of religious
conversions, inquisitions, "acculturisation", etc) and the other in
the late 18th century (where the way of life was largely untouched
because of changing perceptions in Portugal, the decline of the once
powerful Portuguese Empire, etc). Would you agree?

* When you say "Goans are different from Indians", do you see Indians
as one undistinguished mass? Is this the kind of 'all Chinamen are the
same' kind of ignorance? Try convincing a Tamil that he is not very
different from a Malyalee, or try putting in the same basket
Maharashtrians and Kannadigas, Pondicherrians and Tamilians, Oriyas
and Bengalis, Delhiites and those from the North East. Just what are
you talking about?

* One can adapt your statement to read "Every Bardezkar, and the rest
of the world that knows Bardez, is aware that Bardezkars are different
from Pednekars". (Or, switch the comparison to Bardez and Salcete.)
Wouldn't it still be valid? So what's the point your trying to make?
In my village, I can take you to one vaddo which believes it is "very
different" from the other. I could even say that every Paulo DC is
different from a Frederick Noronha!

In a way, we are all different. In a way, we are all the same. Depends
on whether you're going digging around for differences or
similarities. The same is true of whether it's a Goan in India or in
Portugal.

It was Gandhi (and I'm critical of him on quite a few of his
perspectives... we still have to discuss caste) who said religious
differences make up for 5% of an individual. The remaining 95% shares
a lot in common.

It seems the underlining argument of Paulo is that similarities are
judged on the basis of a shared religion, or culture (and maybe
language). But there is more to this in life. But even the above
criteria doesn't apply to all Goans, except a tiny section that had it
good in colonial times, and will use every possible argument to hanker
back to the unreachable past.

> Every Goan, and the rest of the world that knows Goa, is aware that Goans
> are different from Indians, they have (had) a disctinct identity, and this
> includes the Hindus of Goa, who are very different from those across Goa's
> borders. Even J.Nehru recognised this officially, but after 1961 didn't care
> about it. This identity has been  badly mangled by the so-called liberators,
> with the Portuguese elements of Goan culture under siege ever since and all
> but erased in some aspects (Portuguese language, for instance), as a result
> of a deliberate policy of "degoanising" Goa, brainwashing its population,
> controlling and / or manipulating its press and  media in general,
> marginalising the Catholics, imposing alien languages and scripts, etc.,
> etc.. Some of these measures are taken by governments elected largely by
> non-goan voters, with their own interests and agendas, something perhaps
> inevitable when 40% of the population is made up of migrants. But this in
> itself is part of the masterplan of the 1961 "liberators".
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Re: [Goanet] Alignment of North-South expressway

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May
 There is no better, value for money, guest house.
  Confirm your bookings early or miss-out

  Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation.
---
If that's the case, someone is going to make a small packet on real
estate conversions there. The laws allow for constructions to go up on
the landward side of a road. So building a new road close to the coast
allows for huge new real estate projects. Take the case of
Miramar-Caranzalem-Taleigao. FN

On 10/07/06, Sachin Phadte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have heard from a friend of mine who stays near Colva that the alignment
> of the expressway is between the railway line and the coast. Is there anyone
> on the list who can confirm it? Also, if anyone knowledgeable about the
> traffic, environment, etc., may also wish to comment.
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Re: [Goanet] Who's picking your pocket? An official report gives you facts and figures

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May
 There is no better, value for money, guest house.
  Confirm your bookings early or miss-out

  Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation.
---
On 15/07/06, Lawrence Rodrigues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes, Frederick, < grin > am laughing all the way to the Bank as do
> others who respond to posts on Goanet :-)
>
> What prompted the building of the Konkan Railway?   I believe, were it
> not for Madhu Dandavate, and, George Fernandes, the cries of the
> Konkan, for a railway,  would *never* have been answered.
>
> Incidentally, the Konkan Railway is an *engineering* marvel.  The
> technology has been around for a long, long time.
>
> An environmental disaster?  As is almost all *human* activity in the
> *modern* world.  The perspective is important.
>
> A financial *blackhole*?  Are the CAG reports available?  If I recall
> correctly, all opposition to the Konkan Railway, in Goa, fizzled out,
> after the announcement of the issue of  *Tax Free* bonds by the Konkan
> Railway Corporation.
>
> Konkan Railway *bashing* seems to be another sport on Goanet.  Akin to
> a religion with the theme being *See, but, refuse to believe*.  The
> Konkan Railway upset the apple cart of so many vested interests in
> Goa.  Rightly so.
>
> The Konkan Railway Corporation seems to have delivered what it
> promised.  A high speed, high frequency railway track.  That the track
> is built to withstand trains travelling at 160 kmph has been proved in
> the recent trial runs.  Believe the responsibility for under
> utilization of the track lies with the *Railway Minister* and not the
> Konkan Railway.Lawrence, I travel by the KRC and agree it's a convenient mode 
> of transport. But as far as the overspending and environmental costs go, 
> let's not bluff ourselves or hide from the truth. Below is an article which 
> could serve as a useful reminder:


http://www.goacom.org/news/getStory.php?ID=862

##
# Would you like to discuss the news? Your comments are of interest! #
# Post your comments, feed-back, opionion to goanet@goanet.org   #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others  #
##

THE GREAT RAILWAY RIP-OFF

By Anthony J. Simoes.

On January 26, 1998 the Konkan Railway (KR) was inaugurated with much fan
fare. The Konkan Railway Corporation (KRC) and the media continued in their
PR-mode which they started in 1990 as a symbiotic relationship. They all
gathered at Ratnagiri station for the grand finale. The Prime Minister Atal
Bihari Vajpayee and the CMs of Maharashtra, Goa, Karnataka and Kerala were
the main guests.

The locomotive of the inaugural train got derailed before reaching Ratnagiri
station, and had to be reloaded onto the tracks. The entire inaugural
ceremony was delayed by over four hours. The KRC-media nexus managed to keep
this all under wraps.

There is one characteristic that the KRC has consistently displayed
throughout its 14-year-history. It has always shown that construction,
operation and maintenance of Railways was never its forte. Its core
competence has always been PR, advertising, mis-information, media
manipulation and disinformation. Not necessarily in this order.

When reputed and experienced chartered engineers like Urban Lobo and Anthony
Remedios called proposed Konkan Railway a nightmare, the KRC and the media
insisted on calling it a dream. When those engineers called it a national
disaster in the making, the KRC-media nexus called it a national project and
labelled the opponents as anti-nationals and dismissed them as part of the
anti-development brigade.

The KRC and media kept calling the KR "one of the wonders of the world" even
as those engineers warned us that it could turn into one of the "blunders of
the world". The media waxed eloquent about the KR, as if the KRC was about
to land an Indian on the moon.

Over the last 14 years the media has painted themselves into a corner and
have compromised their own credibility. Now they find it almost impossible
to be critical of a Railway that is an unmitigated disaster.

>From the safety angle the record is simply atrocious. In the last one year
two major accidents have claimed the lives of more than 70 people. Almost
150 have been seriously injured. One third of those are critically injured.
There have been over a dozen accidents involving a few deaths and many
injuries.

Since the so called "commissioning" of the KR there have been over 500 rock
falls in cuttings and 

[Goanet] TOURISM: Ayurveda massage centres to be regulated (Kerala)

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May
 There is no better, value for money, guest house.
  Confirm your bookings early or miss-out

  Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation.
---
Ayurveda massage centres to be regulated
Indo-Asian News Service

Kochi, July 15 (IANS) Ayurvedic massage parlours in Kerala, which are
immensely popular with foreign and domestic tourists, will soon come
under the government scanner, Health Minister P.K. Sreemathy said
Saturday.

While tourist resorts offering ayurveda massage do roaring business
during the peak monsoon season, Sreemathy said the government would
see to it that no exploitation takes place at such centres.

"We have reports that certain undesirable activities do take place in
the name of ayurveda in certain places. At no cost will we tolerate
this," he said here, while releasing a new publication on ayurveda.

Ayurveda is most effective during the rainy months of June, July and
early August. It is the best season for administering the treatment,
as the human body is best suited for ayurveda during this time.

The most popular packages on offer at resorts are the one-week,
two-week and three-week packages.

Most of these packages include body massages with different types of
herbal oils and powders.

The minister said that her department is working out rules and
regulations that would have to be adhered to by all those engaged in
ayurveda tourism.

"We just can't spoil the huge advantage that we have as far as
ayurvedic tourism is concerned. No other state has this advantage and
if we do not have proper checks and balances things could go out of
hand," Sreemathy told IANS.

The current rate for a simple rejuvenating body massage is as low as
Rs.250 while an intensive four-week package could be priced as high as
Rs.350,000.

"We intend to classify all tourists resorts depending on the
facilities being offered in ayurveda. There would be clear
bench-marking allowing the tourist a fair deal," said the minister.

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Re: [Goanet] : On what's good for Goa and Goans

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May
 There is no better, value for money, guest house.
  Confirm your bookings early or miss-out

  Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation.
---
On 17/07/06, Joe Vaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> BTW: Fred conveniently avoided my pointed questions in my previous post.
> That would have cleared up the ambiguity and nuances of "crises" and
> "issues" that Fred alludes to but so conveniently eludes to explain.

Joe, I could spend a lifetime working to convince you and share
perspectives over how I understand journalism in Goa to be working
(and now working, given its many flaws). But that's not going to be
very productive. For me.

Neither is the average Goanet reader going to gain much, as I can
already see the arguments going around in circles.

You start off by making very loose allegations, and then expect me to
"clear.. up the ambiguity and nuances". It doesn't work that way, sir.
To convince me that this discussion and sharing of ideas is going
somewhere, at the very least, you need to demonstrate intent that
you're not shooting in the dark, that you know what you're talking
about, and that you're not just scoring debating points for the sake
of doing so.

I agree that a debate on the functioning of the media in Goa is long
overdue. But I would like to save my breath for someone more clued in
to the issue. (There are some very knowledgeable persons online,)

Recently, someone from the world of academia refused to "do the
homework" for a person who was discussing an issue with him. I guess I
now know what it feels like when the onus of presenting facts and
figures is thrown on you by the very side who claims to know all what
s/he is talking about ;-) FN
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Re: [Goanet] Goanet as a teaching instrument

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Interesting suggestion, Cornel. I also volunteer my services. Anyone
wanting a 'second opinion' on their writing, just get in touch. We
also have a (not-so-active) online mentoring network for those wanting
to join journalism called http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goajmentor
FN

On 17/07/06, cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Just as my suggestion that Goanet is a valuable learning instrument, I
> believe that it has scope for some 'teaching/supportive' role in helping
> potential contributers to write coherently and present articles. I have been
> surprised at quite a few private drafts requesting me (and perhaps others)
> to tidy  up material for presentation. I have helped from time to time in
> this respect.  However, such a  situation can't be surprising as many on
> Goanet (from 7000 thousand plus?) are probably hesitant to appear in print
> for a great many reasons, including lack of confidence. This suggestion for
> a kind of confidential service from Goanet may hopefully bring out more
> valuable contributors than exist at present. It would also help some of us
> to retire from the scene!
> Cornel
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Re: [Goanet] GoanetReader: Virtue in vice -- opium money in the making of Panjim

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

My apologies. The correct URL is
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goaheritage/
Frederick "FN" Noronha
for Goanet Reader

On 18/07/06, jocelyn britto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Nice article by Celsa Pinto. Just out of curiosity wanted to go through some
> more interesting reading on the heritage of Goa.
>
> I wanted to have some information on Siolim and why it was called so, its
> history, heritage etc.
>
> Checked the website
> http://www.goaheritage.org
>
>
> Went to join the mailing list at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/heritagegoa I guess it doesnt exist anymore.
>
> It says :
>
> Group Not Found
>
> There is no group called *heritagegoa*. Please make sure you typed the web
> address correctly. If you have done so, the group may no longer exist.
> Thank You.
> Regards,
>
> Jocelyn Britto.

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Re: [Goanet] FACTUAL POSITION OF LAW W.R.T. LANDED PROPERTIES ACQUIRED BY FOREIGNERS IN GOA.

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Floriano, Just curious: Is this, by any chance, linked to your
intererst in real estate? I would expect Goa Suraj to be more
Goa-oriented here, and help tackle a ludicrous situation in which the
real estate sector and landed Goan interest have gained hugely, while
the average Goan who spends a lifetime in this state cannot afford a
decent home for himself! And why the inverted commans around the word
'foreigners'? Someone who holds a foreign passport is indeed a
foreigner. FN

On 18/07/06, Goa Su-Raj Party <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To,
> GOANET ADMINISTRATOR/S,
>
> Sir/s,
>
> There is a lot of bad-blood and volatile accusations flying to and fro in
> recent days w.r.t. 'foreigners' acquiring landed properties in Goa. We have
> talked to Mr. P.V. Sardessai, the retired State Registrar & Head of Notary 
> ...--
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Re: [Goanet] Book Review: Penance

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

And, this novel is also published by the same Goan Observer group
which has published the review (below)! It could be a conflict of
interest to publish a novel, and then call it " un-put-down-able until
the very end".  --FN

On 18/07/06, Goanet A&E  wrote:
> Title : Penance
> Author: Ben Antao
> Published: 2006
> Rs. 200
>
>
> Canadian in theme, Goan in values

> Ben, from a prize-winning world-acclaimed serious writer, is turning out to be
> a leading romantic novel-writer. He crafts his stories with great mastery
> blending successfully the perfect amount of description with emotional detail.
> And his novels ever more absorb us in this part of the world because, a Goan
> by birth - and at heart -, he addresses problems in a unique way, against the
> backdrop of beliefs and conflicts of our Goan society, as it struggles in
> search of some meaning of life.
>
> Penance is an amazing read and un-put-down-able until the very end. Here's a
> novel for our times!  ENDS)

==
> The above review appeared in the Goan Observer weekly of July 15-21, 2006,
> Panjim, Goa, India.
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Re: [Goanet] Which ISP to go for... when visiting Goa

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Hi Nasci, I take on assignments, but expect to be paid for the same.
The currency: repaying via the 'gift economy' (i.e. doing good to
someone else in cyberspace).

Mario Goveia has given me a whole lot of "assignments" and my
things-to-do list is simply too cluttered. Someone else suggested
Goanet Admin take on the role of the Goa police. Joe wants me to
supply him with arguments so he can beat me down in the next debate
about the media ;-)

I'm simply confused. Going to approach Aunty for help! FN

On 18/07/06, Nasci Caldeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Fred,
> What about the Siffy Cable Network, for Broadband;
> Like the one Dr Pimenta was explaining to me about on
> goanet earlier this year? This already has a good
> coverage in Pamjim area at 100 Mbps.and was to be
> introduced in the Margao area, from January 2006.
>
> Could you find out the details on this 'Siffy' network
> and throw some more light on this specially with
> regards to use by Visitors from overseas and outside
> Goa/India.
> Speed, Download Quota. Cost etc. Thank you!
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Re: [Goanet] Book Review: Penance

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

I agree with Bosco's wider point that Goa *really needs* to celebrate
its writers. But this isn't likely to be credible if the same outlet
publishes the book and then gives it an "unputdownable" review.

Overall, as a society, we are giving neither sufficient credit -- nor
attention -- to our writers. Goanet and its readers could take on a
very attainable target of changing *this* situation. Can each of us
review at least two or three Goa-related books in a year (preferably
ones in which we have no stake)? Can we mentor youngsters on the art
of reviewing books?

With World Goa Day around the corner, whatever happened to Rene's
footballs-for-Goa and an-email-address-for-every-Goan idea? This is
not to criticise Rene, but just to egg-on a man-of-a-thousand-ideas to
deliver on the same ;-) FN

On 19/07/06, Bosco D'Mello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I hope you and Floriano can provide us an "un-biased" review of the book. For
> the moment, we should celebrate Ben Antao's work of fiction that will
> hopefully encourage more Goan authors to take up writing fiction.
>
> Best wishes - Bosco
> T-dot!
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[Goanet] REVIEW: A directory of higher education 2006 (A Malayala Manorama publication)

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

A Directory of Higher Education 2006
Rs 75 320 pp 2006K C Narayanan, editor in charge


Hand it to the Malayalees. They really know how to make the best use
of information. This book under review is one such example. A
fascinating, 320-page book, it's priced at just Rs 75. It contains
tonnes and tonnes of useful career information, even if the cost of
this is subsidised by the many pages of advertising in this
large-sized book published by one of the major newspapers publishers
of Kerala.

After seeing a reference to it in The Hindu (the Chennai-based
serious-in-outlook newspaper) I tried locating a copy of the book.
South India tends to be serious about issues like education,
environment and social justice. That's why one loves plugging into
their cultures, understanding them and trying to reverse-engineer at
least a little of the same for Goa. Even if it's mostly a tough job.

After searching in many bookshops, it was finally at a Manorama stand
at the airport that one got a copy of this book.

Says the introduction to it, "A young person today is required to have
not only academic qualitifications but also a whole set of other
skills. A student needs to develop the ability to communicate and get
along with people and the ability to think ahead. A willingness to
learn new things, to be open minded, to take on challenges, to be able
to withstand pressures are essential qualities "

This book starts with a section on "Emerging Career Trends". The lead
article here is by Usha Albuquerque, the Goan prominent career adviser
who's based in New Delhi. There's also a review of 'engineering
education in India'.

Likewise, there are pointers to a whole set of courses: accountancy,
actuarial science, advertising, agriculture, animation and cartoons,
architecture, art, audio-visual media, banking services, beauty care,
bioinformatics, biotechnology and genetic engineering, chartered
financial analysts, civil services, commercial pilot, company
secretary, company secretary ... and
a whole lot more gong down to water and land management and veterinary services.

It's neatly laid out and well printed. There's a whole lot of
information packed into a cluttered space.

One limitation is that parts of the book read like long lists of
which-insitution-is-located-where. There are not sufficient details
about what exact courses is offered by which institution. But when you
try to get such a wide angle picture of such a vast landscape (the
educational field in a country of one-billion, and South India does
have a growing number of interesting alternatives), then it's obvious
that you will come up with such a cluttered canvas.

Anyway, this can indeed be a useful book. If you're serious about
building talent back home, please seriously consider gifting a copy to
the school you studied at or a helpful teacher who could share this
information with others.

As for me, I'm off to pass on my copy to a teacher in the village who
helps a lot of kids find their way around in the complexing world of
careers. -FN

MORE SUCH information from Goanet Careers:
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-careers-goanet.org/
To join Goanet Careers, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Goanet] Casualties in the Metastrip agitation

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Isn't Google your friend? Try http://shrunklink.com?hrz
You might find something relevant. FN

On 19/07/06, Sachin Phadte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The other day, my firends and I were generally discussing the attack on
> Mumbai on July 11. As we were also discussing the killing of two policemen
> in Bhiwandi a few days before, a friend mentioned that during the Metastrips
> agitation a policeman was killed by a mob. Based on my reading the various
> postings on Goanet, I said that I found this very difficult to believe,
> given the nature of the people of Goa. My friend got very agitated that I
> was trying to do a cover-up. This has caused a somewhat strain in our
> relations.
>
> Can someone on this list let me know what the fact is?
>
> Sachin Phadte

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Re: [Goanet] Goanet as learning instrument re Democracies

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

You're seeing the glass as half-empty, Elisabeth. And, as someone who
decided to 'vote with your feet', I think that's only natural.

Imagine a country which emerges from colonialism and survives five
decades without a military coup, has still huge problems of poverty
and illiteracy but manages to give a substantial section of its
population a fairly human existance. One that has been able to build
manpower (and womanpower, you included) that is able to take on the
world and perform well wherever they be. That too, with all the odds
against it!

I'm no fan of the "India will be a superpower" theory, but I guess you
could expect some surprises specially from the more-educated, more
socially-enlightened southern parts of India in the years ahead. Watch
this space...

And, along with friends from the sub-continent, I believe that over
the next 15-20 years, we could well see a United States of South Asia.
(Maybe that's a bad choice of a name, given the hegemonic connotations
that any mix between the USA+USSR would have! My friend Kanak Mani
Dixit of Himal in Nepal calls it Sasia. One word with asia spelt in
all small alphabets. If Europe, which taught Asia the ideas of
nationalism, can turn its back on it, why can't we forget the more
intense forms of 'nationalism' and think of wider spaces and borders
that benefit all? Of course, India would have to learn to play less of
a hegemonic role here and accomodate the other smaller nations to make
them feel comfortable in such a setting.)

I don't agree with my colleague RKN's view that an undivided India
would have been unsustainable. To me, it seems based on the logic that
Muslims-aren't-people-like-us. (Who is the "vast sections" of South
Asia whom RKN is talking about? Don't they exist within the borders of
current-day India?) If his logic was true, then Goa wouldn't be able
to exist within an India, and the Old Conquests should be fighting a
war of secession from the New Conquests. Rather, the other way round,
since the "Novas Conquistas" have every right to feel colonised by us
chappies sitting along the central coast.

At the end of the day, it isn't about size. It's about justice.

If India is able to accomodate its many diverse strands and sections,
there's no reason why it shouldn't survive or even thrive. More
intolerance will lead to an implosion of the Indian state from within.
As far as the Mumbai blasts are concerned, I was a bit surprised that
no one raised the point of India needing to cope with dissent and
diversity in more efficient ways. There was a lot of this in the early
years after Independence. But, as we forget the need to accomodate
everyone, we also get more intolerant... The
let's-do-a-Israel-on-Pakistan arguments aren't taking us anywhere
closer to a resolution of our many conflicts.

If the Punjab problem could be healed (or so it seems) over time,
there's no reason why more understanding can't sort out Kashmir.
Religious differences are, after all, only skin deep. FN

On 19/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
> judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
> but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
> system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
> extent an ideology of secularism.
>
> India has none of these. More that half its population
> is illiterate or semi-literate, there are vast
> disparities in its income distribution and it pays lip
> service to secularism. As a result, we have powerful
> vested interests that gain popularity or momentum and
> come to power. The silent middleclass remains
> unrepresented. Most functional democracies have a
> robust middleclass that forms the bell of the curve
> rather than the fringe.
>
> India, as someone eloquently put it is a "functioning
> anarchy".
>
> Elisabeth
> ---
>
> --- Radhakrishnan Nair <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It's not irrational to believe that an undivided
> > India would have been
> > untenable on many counts: too big and ungovernable
> > with too many pulls
> > and pressures -- not to speak of the sectarian
> > violence and even civil
> > wars that are all too conceivable. True secularism
> > and democracy are
> > unpalatable concepts to vast sections of the South
> > Asian population.
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Re: [Goanet] Mervyn's excellent point of the Harmony that Was, and still Can Be. If Only 2

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Please tell me how people can "live peacefully" together if there is
official discrimination against a section of the population (in this
case, Hindus, till 1910)? Is it the peace of the graveyard? Also,
Catholics were having an intense war among themselves. Please don't
play on the fact that I missed out a *not* from the line "Goa is one
part of India which, unlike the rest of even colonial British India,
DOES RESPECT  the family laws of THIS COMMUNITY." (Emphasis added by
JC)

"Peace without justice is tyranny." -- William Allen White quotes
(American Journalist known as the Sage of Emporia.

It now appears that these colonialism-began-in-1961 types are
beginning to believe in a communalism-began-in-1961 perspective too!

On 19/07/06, Jose Colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> a: The Hindu-Christian-Muslim Goans in Goa (pre-1961 let's say in 1960)
> were living peacefully together OR
> b: The Hindu-Christian-Muslim Goans in Goa (pre-1961 let's say in 1960)
> were NOT living peacefully together

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[Goanet] Fourth Estate... and arms of government. WAS: Re: Goanet as learning instrument re Democracies

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Just a small (but important) point: you're mixing up Carlyle's
conception of the Four Estates [1] with the concept of the three
branches of government [2].

These are not inter-related, though often confused. My worry is that
it happens so often in the Goa assembly (specially with politicians
like Luizinho Faleiro), that our politicos often then justify the
media acting almost as a mouthpiece for government! It shouldn't, and
should be an arm's length from the people who rule us, if not having a
critical and adversorial position.

To quote Wikipedia: "The term Fourth Estate refers to the press, both
in its explicit capacity of advocacy and in its implicit ability to
frame political issues. The term goes back at least to Thomas Carlyle
in the first half of the 19th century In this context, the other
three estates are those of the French States-General; the church, the
nobility and the commoners, although in practice the latter were
usually represented by the middle class bourgeoisie."

And again, about "branches of government": "Under modern political
theory, government is understood as having three main powers:
legislative (the power to make laws), executive (the power to
implement laws) and judiciary (the power to judge and apply punishment
when laws are broken)."

These two concepts are not related whatsoever. The confusion maybe
because the idea of "Estates" (church, nobility and commoners as power
lobbies!) is fairly alien to our part of the globe and our day.

Please do not mix up the two concepts, or else it would justify the
political class treating the media as their adjunct. (The famous joke
is about Luizinho Faleiro calling journalists to his cabin, offering
them snacks, and telling them "take down". Journalists sneered about
this being "dictation", even if few, if any, dared challenge the
minister on it. Some did, though.)

FN

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_estate
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government#Branches_of_government

On 19/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho  wrote:

> The four estates of democracy maybe the legislative,
> judiciary, executive and a free and unfretted press,
> but I feel the pillars of democracy are its education
> system, an equitable per capita income and to a large
> extent an ideology of secularism.
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Re: [Goanet] FIRST SC (BJP) CHAIRPERSON ELECTED -MARGAO MUNICIPAL COUNCIL

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

It might be interesting to go beyond the candidate's caste
affiliations, and hear how the BJP, despite its small numbers, manages
to leverage the contradictions within the various groups, and come out
on top of the Margao municipality. Time and time again.

Valmiki, who himself is an ex-mayor of Margao, could also probably
offer us some insight.

Are these differences merely personality-based? Does communalism and
casteism play a role? If so, how significant? Are there business and
other vested-interest lobbies that band together (as did the
Alemaos-Bandekar-Chopdekar combination at certain stages of Goa
politics)?

Maybe one could say that the BJP under Parrikar is the master
sociologist of Goan society. It understand who exactly is upset with
whom, and which social forces are ready to "break out" of an existing
alliance and form a new combination. Had it not been for this (and, of
course, the BJP ruling at Delhi, of course), could the BJP ever had
dreamt of coming to power ... with the support of the Wilfred de
Souzas, the Francisco Sardinhas, and the Matanhy Saldanhas?

Given the shortsightedness and selfishness of most politicians in Goa,
it would not be very surprising to see a BJP return to power in a Goa
of the not-too-distant future. Margao civic politics is a good example
of what's possible! Of course, the BJP must be awaiting a suitable
change at New Delhi, without which any party finds it just about
impossible to rule Panjim. FN

On 18/07/06, godfrey gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Then there were records set since October, 2005
> a) the first Schedule tribe Chairperson Ms Piedade
> Noronha was elected; she was unseated post Carnaval
> festivities; reasons none too surprising; in the game
> of musical chairs;
> b) then came Mr Ghanashyam Shirodkar an ex Chairperson
> earlier running the now demolished "Cine Blue Pearl"
> who took office as Chairperson de novo
> c) with the Congress divided into various groups with
> a Mr Digamber Kamat faction, then a M/s  Alemaos/
> Vijay Sardessai faction the Chairperson Mr Shirodkar
> put in his papers on grounds of "political
> interference" but after the storm there was a calm
> warring factions broke bread and he withdrew his
> resignation
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Re: [Goanet] Goanet as learning instrument re Democracies

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

There was a newspaper headline which once said, "Communalism is for
graduates". The study showed tha the more educated people are, they
more intolerant they become. I think saying India has its many
problems because of a lack of formal education and economic growth is
underrating the abilities of the average folk, forgetting that bigotry
is worse when it comes from an educated person, and could at worst be
an alibi for us all not doing something *now*. FN

On 20/07/06, Radhakrishnan Nair <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, Fred, maybe we can attempt it after we've attained Europe's
> educational and economic standards. But such an experiment in today's
> South Asia, where people have to fight for clean drinking water, is
> doomed to be an unmitigated disaster. In the present scenario, it will
> benefit none.
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[Goanet] [OFFTOPIC] What is the 1% rule? -- from the Guardian

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

What is the 1% rule? -- from the Guardian

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,1823959,00.html

Charles Arthur
Thursday July 20, 2006

It's an emerging rule of thumb that suggests that if you get a group
of 100 people online then one will create content, 10 will "interact"
with it (commenting or offering improvements) and the other 89 will
just view it.

It's a meme that emerges strongly in statistics from YouTube, which
in just 18 months has gone from zero to 60% of all online video
viewing.

The numbers are revealing: each day there are 100 million downloads
and 65,000 uploads - which as Antony Mayfield (at
http://open.typepad.com/open) points out, is 1,538 downloads per
upload
- and 20m unique users per month.

That puts the "creator to consumer" ratio at just 0.5%, but it's
early days yet; not everyone has discovered YouTube (and it does make
downloading much easier than uploading, because any web page can host
a YouTube link).

Consider, too, some statistics from that other community content
generation project, Wikipedia: 50% of all Wikipedia article edits are
done by 0.7% of users, and more than 70% of all articles have been
written by just 1.8% of all users, according to the Church of the
Customer blog (http://customerevangelists.typepad.com/blog/).

Earlier metrics garnered from community sites suggested that about
80% of content was produced by 20% of the users, but the growing
number of data points is creating a clearer picture of how Web 2.0
groups need to think. For instance, a site that demands too much
interaction and content generation from users will see nine out of 10
people just pass by.

Bradley Horowitz of Yahoo points out that much the same applies at
Yahoo: in Yahoo Groups, the discussion lists, "1% of the user
population might start a group; 10% of the user population might
participate actively, and actually author content, whether starting a
thread or responding to a thread-in-progress; 100% of the user
population benefits from the activities of the above groups," he
noted on his blog
(www.elatable.com/blog/?p=5) in February.

So what's the conclusion? Only that you shouldn't expect too much
online. Certainly, to echo Field of Dreams, if you build it, they
will come. The trouble, as in real life, is finding the builders.

[Thanks to Partha, for sending this. --FN]


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Re: [Goanet] Goanet as learning instrument re Democracies

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

I agree with RKN here. Nehru, Gandhi and others in no way can be
called the "middle class". They came from the lap of priviledge. (On
another note, it is ironical the the priviledged children of British
colonialism themseves fought against the forces that created them!)

On the other hand, I would submit that the 300 million strong
"middle-class" is irrelevant in a 1000+ million country the size of
India. At best, it could be considered the tail wagging the dog! For
one, the "middle class" in India is overinflated in estimation. Many
of us would be poorer than the poor of Europe.

Secondly, and more importantly, all grandious dreams of an "Indian (or
Asian) century" are meaningless when you have so many people mired in
poverty and illiteracy and hopelessness. Don't get me wrong. I'm not
being critical of the achievements of India here. Quite a bit has been
done. A lot more remains to be done. And, while we shift to
self-congratulatory mode, we can't afford to forget this.

After all, it is in everyone's interest to improve the quality of life
of those who are so badly off. Do we want to have 7/10ths of our
population to be made up of empty stomachs, or to comprise productive
hands and creative brains? Do we want our Shakespeares to die
illiterate? We can't just "improve" things by playing around with the
poverty line and  manipulating statistics.  --FN

On 21/07/06, Radhakrishnan Nair <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> < before that in India. It was largely the educated/informed  middle
> clas that propelled the Quit India movement surely.>>
>
> Not really, sir! What you call the "educated/informed  middle class"
> were the upper class people -- the landed gentry, though they were by
> and large comparable to today's middle class. Some of them were
> fabulously rich, like the Nehrus. It's said that Motilal Nehru offered
> to pay the British in the currency of their choice for India's
> freedom!
>
> There is hardly any evidence of a middle-class population in British
> India. There was a miniscule minority of WOGs and well-to-do
> businessmen and the vast majority of the poor and depressed classes --
> though, towards the fag end of its regime, the British did make an
> attempt to create an English-speaking middle-class population of
> 'babus'.
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Re: [Goanet] LANDED PROPERTIES ACQUIRED BY FOREIGNERS IN GOA./response to Fred

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Personally I have no problem with playing the market and accepting its
harsh rules, including intense competition, and unfair recompense for
the equal work  -- provided it is fairly applied to *all* the means of
production, i.e. land, capital, knowledge *and* labour. (Why don't
champions of the free market talk about a free global market for
labour? Just because it doesn't serve their interest?)

What I was pointing out to Floriano is that a party such as his, which
has what it calls a "Goans first" (read: discrimination based on
ethnicity) policy, can't take a dual standard on this. It can't call
for blocks on the labour market ("non-Goans", particularly the poor)
and then take a soft line when it comes to real-estate speculation and
land-dealings, because at this point of time it is (perhaps wrongly)
seen as benefitting Goans wanting to make a fast buck out of it.

I am willing to go in for a market based on a policy of autarky ("An
autarky is an economy that limits trade with the outside world, or an
ecosystem not affected by influences from its outside, and relies
entirely on its own resources. In the economic meaning, it is also
referred to as a closed economy."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarky). But here too, we need a fair
set of rules for all, not arbitrary rules which are convenient to us.

Finally, I am not a fan of limitless migration as some have sought to
suggest. What I've been pointing to is that the current round of Goan
chauvinism that has become the dominant ideology for many, is filled
with contradictions and questionable presuppositions. What I find
particularly galling is the fact that the poor migrants are targeted,
while the affluent are welcomed with open arms. This, to me, shows a
clear class bias. Sometimes racism. --FN

On 19/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Frederick,

> The situation with land is precisely the same as it is
> with labour. Simple demand and supply. While you have
> no wish to restrict the unmitigated inflow of labour
> into Goa, you seem keen on restricting the sale of
> land to foreigners. Goans in Goa will definitely not
> be able to afford land in Goa anymore, because whether
> it is foreigners buying it, rich out-of-state Indians
> or huge hotel chains, the price of land will be
> determined by its demand and supply.
>
> Since, demand is high and supply is restricted, prices
> are bound to sky-rocket. Are you suggesting an embargo
> on the sale of land because it disadvantages the
> native Goan? Me thinks, two sets of principles cannot
> apply to the same economic situation. You're either a
> Keynesian or an Adam Smith. Betwixt the two lies
> nothing.
>
> Elisabeth
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[Goanet] GOAEVENTS: Free Software meet, July 22, 2006 3-5 pm at Miramar

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

As usual, our ILUG-Goa meeting is being held on July 22, 2006
(Saturday) between 3-5 pm at the Goa Science Centre. It is open to
all, and attendance is free (apart from a Rs 10 entry fee payable at
the Goa Science Centre gate).

This month's focus will be on:

* Ubuntu hoary hog distro
* Red Hat/Fedora
* Arvind Yadav on virtualisation: "Virtualization is a hot topic
today. Various software for the same are available for Linux (Free and
non-free). This talk will focus on some of them that I know of and
have used."

If anyone is interested in programming in Goa, please check this young
mailing list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goa-floss-developer

Special offer of CDs and DVDs of GNU/Linux software at
http://linuxdvdsale.tripod.com
Till end-July 2006, any single dvd distro for Rs 130 only and any CD
distro for Rs 35 only. (For example FC5 which is six CDs is Rs 30 x 6
= Rs 180.) Contact  2420792 / 9881385492
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Re: [Goanet] Fourth Estate...: Re: Goanet as learning instrument re Democracies

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Sorry, but I cannot understand Nasci's logic. Please, Nasci could you
give me some reference to back up the view that "the Press is
considered 'the Fourth Estate' in ... the modern system of Democratic
Governance". FN

On 21/07/06, Nasci Caldeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nasci adds: dear Elisabeth,
> The Press is considered 'the Fourth Estate' in both
> the old French and the modern system of Democratic
> Governance. The only slip up, you made was that you
> called the other main branches of Govt. as Estates.
> As Fred pointed out, the 'Ligislature', the
> 'Executive' and the 'Judiciary' each with its own
> responsibilities; the Press as the Fourth Estate forms
> a very important and necessary component as reflecting
> the 'Voice of the People', thus further adding to
> democratic governance! For this reason the Press has
> to be unaligned with the three branches of Govt.and
> completely unfettered!
> Just my two Paise worth!
> regards,
> Nasci Caldeira.
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Re: [Goanet] Apparently we have "spokespersons" re: religious intolerance

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Joe, why are you mocking my belief in secularism ... and my faith in
the god called truth? My religious views tell me that I need to
worship my conscience and speak out on matters I feel strongly about.
By telling me to stay silent, and calling my debate "mockery" isn't
this "abuse"? While you have your rights to believe in what you
choose, should anyone be depriving me of the same? FN

On 22/07/06, Joe Vaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If you are asking - is it improper to pose questions on any religion, (as a
> learning exercise,) my answer would be no.  However, it is improper to make
> mockery of *any* religion, God/Jesus. That constitutes clear "abuse" and is
> an indication that such individuals derive intense pleasure in "religion
> bashing," -- mocking *religion* and *people's religious beliefs*.

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Re: [Goanet] LANDED PROPERTIES ACQUIRED BY FOREIGNERS IN GOA./response to Fred

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

On 22/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mario G.'s contention that there is no solution to the
> labour component of industry except in response to a
> total free market principle of demand and supply, is
> not entirely true.

Hi Elisabeth, For once, MarioG and me seem to be agreeing about "free
markets" -- have them for all the inputs (capital, land, knowledge and
labour) or none. Maybe we agree for different reasons altogether. It
reminds me of the time when the Catholic Church and Maoist China were
in agreement that population isn't a problem. Of course, they were
looking at the issue from two extreme ends of the political spectrum
(and arriving at similar conclusions!)

> Suppose we look at the Gulf model of labour supply.
> There, the casual day labourer does not exist. Let's
> examine what is happening in Goa today. An early
> morning drive through the major towns of Vasco and
> Margao, will reveal hordes of workers milling about
> waiting to be picked up by construction companies on a
> daily wage basis.

On a more serious note, the problem has little, if anything, to do
with the demand and supply of labour. Try getting a plumber or a
carpenter at your how and see how it works. If you live in a village,
or even in the suburbs, this gets ten times more difficult. Ditto for
computer technicians, etc etc.

On the other hand, Goa has a surfeit of some professions -- taxi
drivers, for instance and returnees from the Gulf who spend Rs 20 lakh
to set up a xerox shop that brings in no returns -- who just cannot
find jobs or business.

It is surprising that nobody mentions how the information-poverty is
skewing up the entire labour market in Goa. This, together with the
lack of transport badly needed to provide mobility in a state that's
scattered across quite a large area, and the inability of Goa to train
the trades and skills that she needs (or can export labour with)
should be given its fair share of the blame.

As a journalist myself, I am quick to admit that Goa suffers from an
acute case of information poverty. Sad! FN

PS: Just today someone was writing in from another continent to say,
"I'm realy pissed off the way Goa's being spoilt, sometimes I just
wish to come down and fight it out. Why  are you'll journalists and
the social activists quiet?"  Well, the person in question, had
migrated out recently
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[Goanet] Perceptions and statements which may be incorrect don't amount to LIES Was: Re: o Senhor Juan Sintilla and Santoshbab + other lies

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

On 22/07/06, Jose Colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It would be nice to get a confirmation from Joe Vaz - IF a visit to the
> Goanet archives (when they are once again available) will reveal
> Santoshbab's "blatant abuse" of Catholicism or just a critical view of

Jose, This is a LIE. The Goanet archives are *not* unavailable as you
suggest. They are available here
http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/
FN

PS: Don't take this post too seriously. The archives *are* available,
but the first part of the response is just a Josesque response to (a)
a perception sincerely held (b) an inaccurate statement made not
necessarily with malice! And can someone draw a list of who are some
Goanetters' favourite whipping boys (mine too)?
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Re: [Goanet] "Pro-science" and "logical" - really?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

To jump into this unholy fray -- sorry, I can't resist it -- this is
just to remind all that I have argued in the recent past that
Santosh's religion is Science (and he has a
disproportionate-to-reality belief in it). In addition, he is quite
"communal" over that.

Of course, not in the sense of pitting one religion against another
(as we are repeatedly used to in India, under George Bush's new world
order, and all across Goanet) but in pitting all believers against
non-believers/dis-believers.

Other than this, he's a really nice guy, a gentleman to boot, and
someone who is usually capable of very intelligent discussion. (Of
course, Santosh doesn't need a certificate from me, or from anyone
else on this.) But it makes no sense to discuss Science with him,
since he has a lot of very fundamentalist positions on this issue.

Now, what exactly was that quote about not arguing with Scientific camels? FN

PS: Sometimes, only sometimes, I feel we should not be taking
ourselves too seriously on Goanet ;-)

On 22/07/06, Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Bosco,
>
> Thanks for calling me pro-science and logical.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Santosh
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[Goanet] Of "pagans" and "us"... Was: Re: Bombay bombings

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/paganism.htm

What is a "Pagan?"

Everybody has their favorite definition of the word "Pagan." Most
people are convinced that their meaning is the correct one. But no
consensus exists, even within a single faith tradition or religion as
to what a pagan is.

Origin of the term:

There is general agreement that the word "Pagan" comes from the Latin
word "paganus." Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the precise
meaning of the word in the fifth century CE and before. There are
three main interpretations. None has won general acceptance:

Most modern Pagan sources interpret the word to have meant "rustic,"
"hick," or "country bumpkin" -- a pejorative term. The implication was
that Christians used the term to ridicule country folk who tenaciously
held on to what the Christians considered old-fashioned, outmoded
Pagan beliefs. Those in the country were much slower in adopting the
new religion of Christianity than were the city folks. They still
followed the Greek state religion, Roman state religion, Mithraism,
various mystery religions, etc., long after those in urban areas had
converted.

Some believe that in the early Roman Empire, "paganus" came to mean
"civilian" as opposed to "military." Christians often called
themselves "miles Christi" (Soldiers of Christ). The non-Christians
became "pagani" -- non-soldiers or civilians. No denigration would be
implied.

C. Mohrmann suggests that the general meaning was any "outsider," -- a
neutral term -- and that the other meanings, "civilian" and "hick,"
were merely specialized uses of the term. 17

By the third century CE, its meaning evolved to include all
non-Christians. Eventually, it became an evil term that implied the
possibility of Satan worship. The latter two meanings are still in
widespread use today.

There is no generally accepted, single, current definition for the
word "Pagan." The word is among the terms that the newsgroup
alt.usage.english, calls "skunk words." They have varied meanings to
different people. The field of religion is rife with such words.
consider: Christian, cult, hell, heaven, occult, Paganism, pluralism,
salvation, Witch, Witchcraft, Unitarian Universalist, Voodoo, etc.
Each has so many meanings that they often cause misunderstandings
wherever they are used. Unfortunately, most people do not know this,
and naturally assume that the meaning that they have been taught is
universally accepted. A reader must often look at the context in which
the word is used in order to guess at the intent of the writer.

We recognize that many Wiccans, Neopagans, and others regularly use
the terms "Pagan" and "Paganism" to describe themselves. Everyone
should be free to continue whatever definitions that they wish.
However, the possibility of major confusion exists -- particularly if
one is talking to a general audience. When addressing non-Wiccans or
non-Neopagans, it is important that the term:

Be carefully defined in advance, or that
Its meaning is clearly understandable from the text's context.

Otherwise, the speaker or writer will be referring to one group of
people, while the listeners or readers will assume that other groups
are being referred to.

On 22/07/06, Radhakrishnan Nair <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> < Aristo and Santosh, Vasant, supporters, and all the Hindu pagans have
> to say about my analysis above??? Come on! Lets debate this issue on
> my terms, instead of empty philosophies and attendent waste of cyber
> time and space.>>
>
> What? No bloody pagan wants to debate with you, Nasci? All these
> sucking pagans should be lined up and shot, no?

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Re: [Goanet] Clarification on the St. Xavier's Society in Tanzania

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

On 23/07/06, Mervyn Lobo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I amazes me that just a generation ago, most Goans
> would marry only someone chosen/okayed by their
> parents.

A generation ago (in the Goa of the late 'sixties), I didn't know what
electricity was, we studied by candlelight, and my brother and his
friends thought that the fridge (which didn't obviously work) would
help to hatch if a dozen were kept in it for 21 days. They just
rotted, and let out a terrible odour after exploding in the most
peculiar way.

We tend to look down on customs that are "not ours".

Many of us may have decided on our own marriage partners, but I for
one would certainly not look down on 'proposal' marriages. In one
case, you fall in love first and then get married, while you do it the
other way around in the other case!

It's just a different way of doing things. Let's eschew the temptation
to look down on a form that we might not follow.

When Mervyn talks of only marring someone who was "chosen/okayed by
their parents", is he being accurate? Even in a love marriage, the
parental approval is one of the factors (even if not such an important
factor). It might be more accurate to say that the parents initiated
the process of building the matrimonial alliance (or, marriage
contract, as some past governments called it).

And I'm not saying these things just because I've been a part of the
Goanet Cybermatrimonials column ;-) which incidentally is being
prepared for its shortly-due release by Christina Pinto in Australia.
FN
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Re: [Goanet] TIATR AKADEMI: Public Meeting of tiatrists and MLAs

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Nice to see Prince Jacob on Goanet. Obiously, cyberspace is becoming
more relevant to Goa too. Every Goanetter would probably know Prince
Jacob as a prominent tiatrist and the guy behind the Konkani film
PADRI. (My daughter, 8, was in tears over the comedy sequences in the
film.. and even I enjoyed it -- even if it was a bit too 'Catholic' in
worldview.) --FNl

> > Prince Jacob
> > Convenor
> >   Public Meeting of Tiatrists and MLAs.
> > Most of the present MLAs of Goa State assembly have been elected by a
> > substantial number of voters who fully support Roman script for Konknni.
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[Goanet] Just eight people currently BPL in Saligao village

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Just eight people currently BPL in Saligao village

SaligaoNet

SALIGAO, July 23, 2006: Believe it or not, there are just eight
persons on the 'Below Poverty Line' list in Saligao village currently.
So, has poverty vanished from the village? Is the situation being
glossed up simply by making it tough for entering this list? Or, are
the authorities not doing a thorough job of deciding who actually
deserves assistance needed by people on such a list?

This fact emerged at a Saligao gram sabha (village council meeting)
held on Sunday morning, July 23, 2006. There was some disbelief
expressed that only so few were on this list in the village.

While the government tends to make people feel helpless about the
poverty, by encouraging the hand-out culture, the fear among some is
also that those who actually deserve to be on the list might not be
actually included.

There is a complex set of 13 factors which decides whether someone can
be included in the BPL (below-poverty line) listing or not. Different
categories of BPL persons are listed, but the maximum a family can
earn to be included in this list is a total of Rs 2500 per month.

Panchayat secretary Naik read out the names of the eight persons
included on this list. Someone present claimed that one of the eight
had since died. Later, panchayat members and villagers were seen
discussing the arrival of forms to apply for BPL status. To ensure
transparency in the system, names of BPL-beneficiaries are to be made
available to the villagers and discussed publicly, as done at today's
meeting.

Other issues raised at the gram sabha included:

* Proposal to widen the road leading to Lourdes Convent, tok avoid
traffic congestion (mainly witnessed after school hours). Panchayat
secretary Naik said this was being referred to the PWD, after passing
a resolution at the gram sabha.

* Issue of having a playground near Lourdes Convent. Secretary Naik
argued that this was a "land problem". When the LCHS sisters suggested
the playground could be infront of the school, the panchayat secretary
asked whether it was private land or whom it belonged to.

He said that there was government grant making funds available for
playgrounds and mini-stadia, where a minimum area of 400 square metres
was available.

A communidade member raised the possibility of giving one of three
plots, on the road leading to Mapusa. But others asked for a firm
commitment from the comunidade, and said the plot should be closer to
the inhabitation area of the village.

One comunidade member said the cost of filling, levelling the
Sonarbhat land would be too costly. Panchayat member Roland also felt
the land should be nearby to the school. It was pointed out that
objections had come to having the playground infront of Lourdes
Convent, but one viewpoint was that objections would come "from
anywhere".

* Lourdes Convent's third proposal was to ask the panchayat to offer
help to economically backward students to bear the burden of buying
books, uniforms and umbrellas.

Panchayat secretary Naik said that there was a "financial problem"
over this, and it could be looked into next year. When asked what the
"financial problem" was he,  said allocation of funds needed to be
done in advance.

In response to a general question on the panchayat budget, Naik said
the main expenditure was on roads and the like. He noted that a
detailed listing of expenditure had been given at the last gram sabha
meeting.

* Another proposal came from the Government Primary School (the
'shala', formerly called the 'aula' in Portuguese times) to help paint
the school. The primary school also said that leaves keep falling in
its well, and hence it needed financial assistance to install a net
over the well.

Panchayat secretary Naik said the Zilla Panchayat (district-level
body) had a special fund to maintain school buildings, and that this
proposal would be referred to them.

* Lack of street-lighting in D'Mello Vaddo.

* Improvement of the Grande Morod main road leading to Arpora.

* Bharat, a visually-handicapped villager, was bold enough to raise
the issue of the road leading to Salmona. Other villagers raised an
issue of what they said was an "illegal" road passing through Grande
Morod. The issue of cementing the surroundings of the Laxmi Narayan
Temple was also raised.

* Panchayat officials clarified that they do not have to foot the bill
for streetlighting, which is borne by the state government. But the
issue of switching on of streetlights very early in the evening (as
early as 5.30 pm) and switching-off the same very late (at 8.30 or 9
am) was a waste of energy.

Panchayat member Roland said Saligao's electricity department lacked
its resident staff. "We had five staff. Two died and one retired,"
said Roland. "We need one of our boys from Saligao, posted outside the
village, to be posted here so that they could take care of this
issue."

But villagers called on the panchayat to find a solution, if necessary
by approaching the ele

Re: [Goanet] My challenge

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Nice to hear from our readers! And, for the record, Goanet never
believed in censorship. We will never block your views because we
don't agree with them, or because they might be politically incorrect.

Unfortunately, a small group on this list has been spreading the
canard that censorship equals blocking posts which are insulting,
repetitively off-topic or defamatory.

It would be really useful to hear from even more Goanetters on this subject. FN

On 23/07/06, Aristo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> NO to Censorship.
> YES to exercising restraint from making grossly bigoted, disrespectful
> and inflammatory statements.
>
> Cheers,
> Aristo.

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Re: [Goanet] Clarification ......Tanzania re castes in diaspora

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Ha, lady! You've got a lot of catching up to do via the Goanet
archives ;-)  Forget your trips to the zoo and Mexico, this is going
to take you a year of Sundays.

To make life easier for you: Goanet + caste search on Google, 3300 hits!
http://shrunklink.com?hvd

Cecil Pinto says I have invented much of the imagined linkages between
castology and geographies ;-) FN

PS: Moral of the story, if you're serious about life, never get too
deeply involved with Goanet.

On 23/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've always been very curious to know how one could
> tell the "caste" of a person. I'm reasonably fair,
> with light eyes. I speak English with a British
> accent, Konkanni with a Goan accent and quite a
> smattering of French (if my life was at stake). How
> would someone be able to "identity" me at a dance or
> anywhere else? Is there a tattoo on my bottom perhaps
> that I've not noticed all these years? This is a
> serious question.
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Re: [Goanet] UK Goan Festival: 23 July. Photos of Cornel, Gabe & Rene

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Thanks for sharing this with us. Flickr is a nice place through which
to share photos. For instance, see:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/sets/72157594204912541/ which
contains 69 photos from Pernem. FN

On 24/07/06, Eddie Fernandes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> UK Goan Festival: 23 July. Photos of Cornel, Gabe & Rene
>
> There appeared to be a record turnout at the UK Goan Festival on 23 July
> 2006.   To view the 8 photographs of the event, go to
> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eddiefernandes/album?.dir=/4b65re2
>  h&.tok=phqnrOFB87l3BX1G> &.src=ph&.tok=phqnrOFB87l3BX1G
>
> If you have problems, try the link in the photo gallery section at
>  http://www.goanvoice.org.uk/
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[Goanet] Who's searching for "Goa"?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Guess which are the places searching for "Goa" on Google?
http://www.google.com/trends?q=Goa&ctab=0&geo=all&date=2006

1.  Mumbai, India   

2.  Pune, India 

3.  Surat, India

4.  New Delhi, India

5.  Delhi, India

6.  Bangalore, India

7.  Chennai, India  

8.  Hyderabad, India

9.  Brentford, United Kingdom   

10. Thames Ditton, United Kingdom   


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Re: [Goanet] Debate between Mario G and Elizabeth C re "free market" - great success (sic)

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

In-migration can also add value to a society, and remove the stagnancy
that has set in over the centuries. We are grateful to Mr Krishnayya
for his contribution to this debate.

When you talk migration to the US, however, shouldn't the frame of
reference be a reality that the people issuing the green cards don't
belong there in the first place? Why is White, Anglo-Saxon
Protestant/Catholic migration to the US seen as a given? Or, are all
theories valid, except when they cut into one's (race) interests?

It doesn't make sense to me on a warm and sunny Monday morning in Goa. FN

On 23/07/06, Jaswant Krishnayya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My reason for going on at this length, is simply to point
> out that trying to implement a "free market" in labour is
> socially and economically a suicidal policy for any
> society.  Goa had better wake up and do something about it.
>
> J G Krishnayya,
> Pune (and Betim)
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Re: [Goanet] Princely Rescue

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Agreed. The news reporting process is changing from irrelevant to
entertainment-focussed and ludicrous! Also, the herd-mentality is very
strong. If one prominent TV channel reports it as a "story", everyone
else rushes to track down the same, and we have a huge story out of
nothing! Wonder how many Goanetters heard of 'Prince'? FN

On 24/07/06, John Eric Gomes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The whole nation held its breath when Prince, the six year old boy fell down
> a 60ft
> pit, and was rescued by the army.There was absolutely no  mention of
> why/who dug the  borehole and when.Why the neglect of covering it/placing
> warning sign etc. What investigation and recovery of rescue costs and who is
> going to be held responssible.And finally no mention of the brave individual
> who actually went into the pit and  rescued him. Instead an army Officer is
> only highlighted.Consequently such incidents keep happenning all over the
> country with loss of life or limb going unreported/punished/uncompensated.
> There is something terribly wrong  in governance and media reporting!
>
> JohnEric Gomes
>
> Alto Porvorim
>
> (Tel 2417837)
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Re: [Goanet] Christian Goanet?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

On 24/07/06, Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Edward Verdes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >.I think i may draw a few enemies cause of my
> > support to Mariobut that does not bother
> >me...cause I am a Goan Christian and majority of
> >goanetters being Christians.
> >
>
> Interesting comment.
>
> Is this true? Are majority of Goanetters Christian?
> How about the silent netters? If this is true, how do
> people feel about this? Do you want to keep it this
> way?
>
> Also, although this may not be something that Eddie
> meant, how do people feel about supporting someone
> just because he belongs to your religion?

To be fair to Eddie, he's not saying that. He's just saying that,
because people have the same religion as him, they would probably
share his perspective (on matters religious). A fair-enough
assumption.

Anyway, for the record, while Eddie's assumption (about who reads and
posts on Goanet) may echo the reality, Goanet is open to all points of
view, people of all religion (or no religion... or people having
doubts about religion...).  Everyone is welcome. Of course, the rules
apply to all.

May I vote for Goanet being accepted as one of the least-bigoted
institutions that Goa has set up in its social sector over the last 20
centuries ;-) While I am in a provocative mood on a fine, dry Tuesday
morning in Goa, there just might be an element of truth here. Or else,
let me know why, Paulo. FN
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Bombay Bombings(reply to RKN)

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Extremely condescending post, Nasci. Which century do you live in? It
is not for us to decide who needs to be "civilised", unless we belong
to some class of colonial rulers. FN

On 23/07/06, Nasci Caldeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> dear RKN, looks like you are now the 'spokesperson'
> for everyone? I do not accept that!
> Pagans are not to be 'shot at'; however they must be
> 'sudrawed' towards human rights and human equality!
> Sudrailach Payjee! Why would anyone not want to ne
> 'civilised'?? Unless someone is a happy racist
> dictator??
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Re: [Goanet] Fwd: We, you and I, have become cannon fodder for terrorists.

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Conservatives of the world unite, so seems to be the battle-cry of the
moment. And, you can see examples of it in the fairly intense BJP
admiration of Israeli state-sanctioned terror tactics and some of
George Bush's politics (which also gains admiration from the IMF/World
Bank-influenced Manmohan Singh).

Was curious to know more about this media organisation that had
excited the interest of MarioG.

Some comments on "Newsinsight":  "Pro-Sangh writers like Swapan, Punj
etc and papers and magazines like 'Pioneer' and 'Newsinsight' are
always making allegations that the present UPA govt are not concerned
about India's security. "
http://mboard.rediff.com/board/board.php?boardid=news2004oct12swadas

Enemy at the gates: Chinese spies are everywhere, and we don't seem to
be scared. Quoted (approvingly) by
http://www.hindunet.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=60307&Main=2433

"There is 15 per cent to 20 per cent damage to Pakistani nuclear
facilities and storage sites in the Northern Areas, especially in
Skardu and Chitral, the portal newsinsight.net, which describes itself
as a public affairs magazine, has said in its latest posting."
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20051118/nation.htm

A. B. Mahapatra, "Andaman Faces Kargil-Type Invasion," NEWSInsight,
23 October 2002, www.newsinsight.net.

For a long time, the Indian conservatives have been unable to get used
to the fact that the media they have to deal with (particularly the
English-language media) tends to be liberal, progressive, often
critical of conflict-oriented politics and South Asian-style
war-mongering, against this very costly idea of religious infighting
and hate within South Asia, and more prone to discuss the reality of
military-related corruption rather than imagine bogeys in the backyard
and imagine that the rest of the world is 'out to get us'. The Tehelka
case is a good example, and its fascinating to understand the social
vision of its editor Tarun Tejpal (who visited Goa, his favourite
holiday spot, just before the launch of the weekly serious and
thought-provoking tabloid.

But, in their six years in power, the attempt by the BJP to recreate
the media in its own image and though-processes -- both at Delhi and
Goa -- is a study worthy of closer study. This has included the
setting up of a newspaper very closely aligned to the BJP in Goa (the
'Gova Doot') after cannibalising staff who were earlier close to the
BJP itself from papers like 'Gomantak' and 'Tarun Bharat'. In
assembly, the Parrikar government has publicly admitted to giving a
'subsidy' to some of its favoured cable-news TV channels to "cover
official events"! -- FN

On 24/07/06, Goa's Pride Goa-World.Com <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Mario,
>
> NewsInsight is a Public Affairs Magazine. It's been
> quite some years that we subscribe it.
>
> The posting was an editorial in there.
>
> You may obtain a copy at the following addresses:
> Editorial office: Newsinsight.net , 5-G Vandhna
> Building,
> 11 Tolstoy Marg, New Delhi -110001.
> Telephone: 91-11-2372 5860 and 91-11-2332 0388
> Fax: 91-11-2372 2879 and 91-11-2331 9511.
>
> Glad to be of assistance.
> There are lots of facts in the subject essay.
>
> AlmeidaG(ji)
> Associate, www.goa-world.com
> Moderator - Gulf-Goans e-Newsletter (since 1994)
>
> --- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Who wrote this excellent essay?
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[Goanet] Who's reading you?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

You never know who's reading you out there, so be careful what you say!

Reena Martins [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- a Goan journalist from Velim,
working with Kolkata-based The Telegraph in Mumbai -- mentioned that
her brother Elivis used to forward her a number of Goanet messages.

She mentioned she specially enjoyed the posts by Elisabeth Carvalho
and Mario Goveia, among others. And she was surprised that I myself
quite didn't know who Elisabeth "Ms Mystery" Carvalho was, apart from
having exchanged a few emails with her.

FN
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Clarification ...... re castes in diaspora & the Gulf's contributio

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

On 24/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Frederick & Helga,
>
> It is sad that we are part of a society where one's
> surname and geography are an indictment on one's
> character.

It's no indictment. Feelings of caste superiority and inferiority are
only in the heads of those who accept them. I accept neither!

> I once read a matrimonial that stated "Educated and
> cultured Bamon boy seeks only Bamon matches". Sorry
> darling, you are neither cultured nor educated if you
> believe that the world owes you something because of
> an accident of your birth.

And, in case you missed it, Goanet Cybermatrimonials *censors* all
references to caste in our posts. Sorry, we just won't allow it. The
only time one such reference slipped by, I think, was by oversight. If
you want to flaunt your caste, you can go and pay for it to enrich any
of Goa's newspapers (which probably don't have as good a
compiliation of matrimonial listings as Goanet does!) --FN
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[Goanet] News from Frankfurt

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Vito Oliveira of Frankfurt -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- phoned to say
that for the first time in the history of the Goan community in
Deutschland, they staged a full-fledged tiatr on July 22, 2006 in
Frankfurt. It was organised by the GAG, the Goan Association in
Germany, and Roseferns troupe was there, to stage a good show. Just
sharing this with Goanetters. Please don't forget to send in your
other news and updates.
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Get More Goans into IITs not ITIs !

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Is it an either-or situation?

This morning, I bundled my washing machine in the neighbourhood
rickshaw and took it all the way to Porvorim for repairs... And one
really wished we had more of our boys (and girls) studing in ITIs...
apart from polytechnics, engineering colleges and (why not) IITs. And
rickshaw drivers too.

When I spoke to Clarence, he told me he had learnt his airconditioning
and fridge repair skills at a place called St Anthony's in Mapusa. I
couldn't help silently saluting the work done by all such
privately-run, unfunded-by-government enterprises that have been
training Goan and Goa's skills across the generations.

Expats, instead of speculating from a distance, would do well to also
engineer  some innovative skills-imparting initiatives back home. Or
are we just given to talking?

Rudolf Schwartz, a German distantly removed from anything ethnically
Goan, has been doing an interesting job in promoting the skills among
the youth of coastal areas around Siolim. He is targetting drop-outs,
a section that need it the most. The middle-classes and elites can
take care of themselves! They have the State and a range of other
institutions at their beck and call. In Loutolim, the Salesians of Don
Bosco's are doing an interesting job by offering drop-outs technical
skills. Even though they could do with more students.

Alan Dias was talking about not "writing off anybody as mediocre". We
seem to be writing off entire professions as "mediocre".

One Supreme Court lawyer I met had this pretty blunt "oh, you're only
a journalist" attitude written all across his talk. One knows better
than to take offence. Yet, it reflects on the guy with this attitude.
Only the one who's wearing the shoe know what social role any
profession -- howsoever modest -- can play, if only they give their
best to their job. Even if I was a scavenger, but doing a good and
honest job of it, I guess I would have been proud of my contribution
to society.

While travelling through Stockholm in 1998, and visiting the
sixth-floor home of Goanetter Alfred de Tavares, I met his Swedish
neighbour Maria, a young lady who told me she had shifted jobs from
journalism to being a bus driver -- she found the latter less
stressful. Sweden is a fairly egalitarian society in many ways.

Carmo seems to have an inflated opinion about IITianss and their
omnipotent abilities, which is perhaps understandable since it has
become a neo-caste of elites in today's India. They are after all the
builders of the temples of modern India (as Nehru called big dams, but
which we now know to be unsustainable and indeed a negative form of
'development'). But what does IITs prepare people for? Migration, and
a job at the top of the empire of finance in the global world of
capitalism, headquarted in the USofA?

To be fair, I do know a handful of great IITians -- like Dr Ashok
Jhunjhunwala, the man behind the amazing Cordect WiLL telephony
technology, Ravi Gupta who publishes the I4d magazine, Arun Mehta and
Vicram Crishna of radiophony.com who have been pillars of the movement
to open up community radio broadcasting in India But all these are
people who swam against the tide. Not floated along with it to reach
some lucrative destination.

I disagree with Carmo's jibe against Mickky Pacheco (which I read in
one of his mails) just because he had his roots in a tailoring
enterprise. That is not the issue. We should judge Mickky on his
contribution to politics (and one could make a case that this has been
negative). But there's no ground for bias on the basis of social
origins. Everyone deserves a fair chance. Something our cla/ste-driven
(class-caste) Goan society won't make possible.

Do IITs teach people the art of admistering and taking people ahead as
one, despite their cultural, religious and social differences? If one
goes by the experience of Manohar Parrikar, the answer would be a
resounding 'no'. For that matter, even having an IITian as chief
minister for relatively long did not help Goa build its own IT
industry in a coherent way (other than giving subsidies to the wrong
people, and converting IT promotion into a huge real-estate
speculation game)!

Carmo's point that we need to better equip our children to get into
IITs is valid. But then, we need to equip them better to get into
every field of life.  As long as people play a productive role in
life, and make good use of their God/nature-given talents (depending
on which side of the theist/atheist/agnostic fence you're on) what
does it really matter?

FN

On 26/07/06, CARMO DCRUZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Alan,
> However, in this high tech economy, we should encourage and inspire all our
> Goan students to aim straight for the top and get into medical schools or
> the IITs (Indian Institutes of Technology) and not the ITIs (Industrial
> Training Institutes). Its not just a matter of interchanging syllables -
> there is a VERY BIG difference ! 
-- 
---

Re: [Goanet] Christian Goanet?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

This is a loaded question. The issue is not of making this a
"Christian Goanet" or not. It's about to what extent people are
willing to tolerate criticism of ideas/ideals they hold important to
them, and in what language this criticism is voiced. FN

On 26/07/06, Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> in knowing how people feel about making this a
> Christian Goanet, and not a secular one where religion
> does not receive special treatment.
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] George Menezes

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

I think writing skills run in any family which has access to literacy
and learning. In Goa, as they say, many of our potential Shakespeares
died illiterate. Even now, the situation is just one of superficial
literacy ... we are yet to see our skills upgraded sufficiently. FN

On 26/07/06, Paulo Colaco Dias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Writing skills run in that family. VM (Vivek Menezes ex-goanetter now known
> as VM de Malar) also belongs to that family and certainly also inherited his
> writing skills from his grand-father Prof. Armando Menezes.
-- 

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[Goanet] SITEWATCH: http://hamaraproject-goa.org/

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use 
the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message 
board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX.

http://bmxgoa.com

ABOUT US

The Goa Branch of the Trust was started in Cancona, Goa in 1991. The
Trust has undertaken various activities from then on till date.
To mention a few :

# The Trust started off with balwadis at Canacona to educate the local
population as well as the construction workers.

# The Trust also started a canteen in the Canacona Industrial estate
to cater for the industral workers in the area as well as provide
  self employment for the women in that area.

# The Trust also encouraged a group of women to work from their homes
at Poinguinim. They prepared eatables such as papad,
  pickles and sold to various hotels and shops.

# The Trust also trained girls for home nursing.

# The latest venture of the Trust is Hamara School and the Kasturba
Gandhi Center for women and children.

# Our next venture is to put up a hostel for girls hamara balika gram


Hamara School
Hamara school is an effort to educate and empower the underprivileged
through integrated methods and to initiate and implement
progressive change. Hamara school was started by Mrs. Mangala Wagle ,
Pratinidhi ( Goa Branch ) of the Kasturba Gandhi National
Memorial Trust and a few volunteers who believed in the cause.

Hamara school is run at present at St. Inez in panjim at a premise
donated to the trust by the government. Hamara School serves
communities of Panjim and areas surrounding panjim. Living conditions
in these communities are poor: for many there is no place to live,
most of these children suffer from malnutrition and have no means to
education or medical help.

It was Mangalaji and a few volunteers response to their observation
that children from these slums were being deprived of an education
and being forced to earn a livelihood at this tender age. The school
is on from 9:00 a.m to 4:00 p.m. Children are provided with Breakfast,
lunch and an evening snack. The children are taught hygiene and basic
primary level education. There are also volunteers who teach
certain vocational and extra curricular activities. We at Hamara
school believe that the only way to teach children from deprived
sections
of society is through love and care. Thus we try and provide that to the utmost.

Hamara School has grown, continuing to support those members of
society traditionally neglected. Hamara school believes that every
child has a right to childhood and every person a right to dream.
Hamara School works to emancipate childhoods and to fulfill dreams.
Hamara School also strives to initiate and implement social change, by
encouraging genuine relationships to develop between privileged
and underprivileged groups .

Betim Street School
After the success of hamara school we decided to start a similar set
up at another location Betim in Goa where there are children of
mostly ragpickers who live under appaling conditiond in crowded slums
without basic sanitation and water facilities .
We do not have a premise there as yet so one of the teachers from the
school carries cooked food there from hamara school and teaches the
children for 3 hours everyday.

Kasturba center for women in Cancona
In the hilly areas which are inhabited mostly by tribals, the only
employment available is in agriculture and that on;ly for four months
in a year. For the rest of the time women are employed.

This programme aims to impart new skills to women, enabling them to
become financially independent members of their families.
This would benefit women in several ways:

   1. Build their confidence :
  This is the first step towards empowerment.
  Social position and respect at home is enhanced as the women
become providers rather than being dependants.

   2. Develop social skills :
  Social interaction in the classroom creates a support group that
helps them in times of difficulty and hardship.

   3. Supplement family income :
  The women will produce items for sale.

We have already started a small scale production unit for locally
grown food items. Our plan is to diversify into production of health
food items such as ragi , a locally grown cereal widely cultivated in
the area and rich in iron , calcium and proteins,
Honey produced locally, Amla ( Indian berries ) , fruit preservation,
Cashew and kokum products.
Top

Address:
Hamaraproject, c/o Kasturba Gandhi National Memorial Trust Venture
Attn. Mrs. Mangala Wagle, 4C, IInd Floor Model Complex, Taleigao
Market, Panjim, Goa 403 003

-- 

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4000+ copylefted photos to 

Re: [Goanet] Christian Goanet vs Secular Goanet ?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use 
the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message 
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I hold much respect for Santosh Helecar and most of his views (except
for his excessive and almost fanatical faith in 'Science'). But in
this case, it seems that he is veering the debate in a direction of
his choice by using terms such as "Christian" and "secular", as if
these are two polar opposites or the only options available!

Excuse me, but there are a wide range of options between a "Christian"
Goanet and a "secular" one. Which of these roads would be suitable?

* A bigoted Goanet, with a lot of hate-speech towards certain (read:
Hindu, Muslim, "godless atheists", unsure agnostics, "cafetaria
Catholics" ... anyone who is not present in sufficiently strong or
vociferous numbers) beliefs, philosophies, and ideologies.
* A Goanet which is neutral towards all religions, philosophies and ideologies.
* A Goanet which is neutral towards all, *and* allows criticism of no
ideology, philosophy and ideology.
* A Goanet which is neutral towards all, and allows non-insulting,
non-offensive and polite questioning, criticism or debate of any idea
-- howsoever closely these may be connected with an ideology,
philosophy and religion.
* A Goanet that adopts an anything-goes policy and allows hate-speech,
insult-trading and  offensive postings towards one and all.

>From the labels used above (which, I agree, are not wholly value-free)
you know my own biases!

We also need to be careful while making our point, since a point made
with bitterness leaves a bad taste in the mouth... and a potential
flame-war for Goanet Admin to douse (and be called 'censors' for
attempting to do that!)

We have seen debates degenerate to a very acute case of name-calling
and insult-trading in the past, and thanks to the Elisabeth Carvalhos
and the Aristos (not to be confused with the Ariostos!) and our other
new members who have been doing a good job of debating ideas, rather
than trading in insults.

My personal belief is that it is the ideology of Last Wordism (put
simply, "the last word belongs to me... I must have my say") that
could well spell the death of Goanet as we know it. Please be gracious
in knowing when to simply stop replying to a debate that goes on, and
on, and on...

FN

On 27/07/06, Vivian D'Souza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Knowing you, surely you jest Santosh  ?   (Pardon me if I am out of context
> here, as I have been travelling and have been away from this forum for a
> while).  Though I guess there are some "Kooks" who are so wrapped up in
>   their religious beliefs who might want such a thing   Let's stay secular.  I
> would like Goans of all religious persuasions or none at all to participte in
> this forum.  Perhaps then, we could bring more balance to this forum.
>   There are some folks, who think that being a Goan is synonymous with being a
> Catholic, and everyone else is a
>   non-Goan.  Rip Van Winkle is still asleep.

-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Christian Goanet? Religion-bashing & Bigotry(attn Elisabeth

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

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Nasci, I was stunned by your level of arrogance. I guess your
contribution would be great in helping make the anticipated 'clash of
civilisations' into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

What's the point in criticising the perceived failings of the
religions of others? What was it that Christ said about the log in our
own eye? If we want to improve things, rather than just insult others,
we should start by critiquing the faults within our own.

You definitely don't have a right to insult people who practice a
religion different from yours, and which, thanks to your
narrowmindedness, you can't or won't even try to comprehend. FN

PS: Let's stay off GoaFightingNet, GoaInsultingNet and
GoaPrivateBattlesNet. Elisabeth's idea to ignore those who don't
deserve a reply is apt. But I just can't let this pass, lest silence
be taken as approval!

On 27/07/06, Nasci Caldeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have not referred to 'posters' as 'uncivilised
> pagans'. I have said and I do maintain that people,
> the Hindu religious who practice 'CASTE' superiority
> and worship animals and in the same breath look down
> on fellow humans just because the caste wallahs
> consider them low born!
> Is this not FACT and REALITY? THE TRUTH? Do you like
> this?These are the people who have to be 'civilised',
> definitely for the good of humanity and the people of
> the world at large. And I ask for a movement
> originating from the high caste Hindus to challenge,
> prohibit and eliminate caste acknowledgement and
> tyranny from public life
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Christian Goanet?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use 
the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message 
board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX.

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Cipriano "Cip" Fernandes is one of the earliest Goanetters I ran into
-- together with Tim D'Mello (who introduced me to the list via a
letter in Gomantak Times), Herman Carneiro (who welcomed me to the
list), Vishwas Chavan (who sent in news from NIO in those days, before
moving to CCMB in Hyderabad), Marlon Menezes, Uly Menezes, Eddie
Fernandes, and others whose names I might have missed!

He is a former engineer at the Goa electricity department, who moved
on to London.

Now that you know, does it help you to place him in a box? Pagan,
infidel, kaffir, dukkor-khavu ... but I don't think labels help in
making a point! FN

On 27/07/06, Nasci Caldeira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nasci responds:
>
> Hey 'Goa'; do you not think that you should first make
> yourself known to goanetters properly by giving your
> full name and place from where you are residing and
> writing from??
> Then may be, me too can classify you; if you are my
> people or not my people. Come oh, do not feel shy!
> Doesn't matter, as long as your give us your true
> identity.
>
> Nasci Caldeira
> Maelbourne
> That's in Australia!

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Re: [Goanet] Peace initiative

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use 
the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message 
board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX.

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Hi Vivek, While hiding behind the 'goan_voice' label, you seem to be
trying to discredit the Nandita Haksar report, and the ugly truth it
brought to the surface about communalism in today's Goa. I take my hat
off to Nandita for the work she and her team has done on this.

On 28/07/06, Vivek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I will start by giving you one example so that we can
> deal with issue and discuss it further if you so
> choose to.

What is "one example"? Are you trying to discredit the entire report
by pointing to just one issue? The question you need to reply is: are
the findings of the report overall valid or not? Or, do you support
the kind of communalism we have been seeing from all sides grow in
Goa?

> Of course you have the option of calling me "saffron"
> "sangh parivar stooge" or "fascist" and end the matter
> right here.

Nobody has said that. Why do you have these subconscious fears?

> The report mentioned a grenade attack on a mosque in
> priol. was there ever such an attack? to the best of
> my knowledge the incident involved a firecracker set
> off or some thing to that effect and was in no way
> connected to any communal conspiracy or mobilization
> as insinuated by the report.

Please see my note below. The way in which Goan society is trying to
delegitimise the religious places of one community (i.e. Muslims) is
frightening. And what is more, this is happening in the midst of a
major temple building spree in HIndu Goa, and a demolish-and-rebuild
Church-building drive among Catholic Goa. To me, it seems just
patently unfair.

This is not about *one* case. It is about a repeated trend.  So who
are these guys stoking up religious infighting in the name of 'illegal
structures'?

> This is my understanding of the incident. If you can
> furnish some more evidence and correct my statement I
> would willingly and unequivocally apologise to you on
> this forum.
> As far as my name goes, i want that information
> withheld for certain reasons.

Very interesting! FN

LUIZINHO FLAYS BID TO BURN MOSQUE: The Goa Pradesh Congress
Committee president Luizinho Faleiro expressed shock over the
attempt to burn the mosque at Mardol on December 13. (GT) DEC
14, 2004. http://www.goacom.org/news/getStory.php?ID=1316

PROTECTED MONUMENTS: Ten more ancient and historical sites in
the State have been brought under the protective shield of
the Goa, Daman and Diu Ancient Monuments and Archaeological
Sites and Remains Act, 1978 with effect from October 16,
2003. These include the Fort of Reis Magos at Verem, the
Fortress of Khorjuve at Aldona, the Cave of Sidhanath at
Surla, the Mosque and Tank at Tar Surla, the British Cemetery
at Dona Paula, the Fortress of St Estevam, the Fort at
Marmagoa, the site of Kaivailya Math at Consua-Cortalim, the
Cave at Shigao-Sanguem and the site of Narayandev at
Vichundra in Sanguem. (H) OCT 19, 2003
http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-news/2003-October/000352.html

Maulana directed not to hold demonstrations in front of
masjid VASCO: Sub-Divisional Magistrate, Mormugao, Levinson
Martins, in an order passed on March 16 directed the Maulana
of Madina Masjid, Vasco, and the managing committee not to
hold any demonstration in front of the mosque or take any
rally in and around Vasco city or cause any breach of peace.
(GT) MARCH 17, 2006
http://www.goacom.com/joel/news/2006mar/17mar06.htm

'Demolish all illegal religious structures in Mormugao' The
Murgao Samaj Seva Samiti of Vasco has demanded that all
illegal religious structures - be it a mosque, temple or
church - in Mormugao taluka be demolished by the concerned
authorities and that there should not be interference from
any quarters. The Samiti has also requested the Hindus,
Christians and Muslims to support the authorities in this
task. (WE-GT) MARCH 19, 2006
http://www.goacom.com/joel/news/2006mar/19mar06.htm

Desecration of mosque at Housing Board, Mapusa, flayed.
According to the Mufeedul Muslameen Youth Organisation,
antisocial elements had demolished the compound wall,
important parts of the mosque and burnt the mats used to
perform namaz. (H) OCT 11, 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian.goa/browse_frm/thread/591bb7fa58617803/768233be15bb61f7?lnk=st&q=mosque+Goa+Noronha&rnum=7#768233be15bb61f7

Curti village council discusses the masjid (Muslim prayer
centre) issue. Gova Doot. Dec 6, 2005.
http://tinyurl.com/ngp57

Tempers ran high at Curti-Khandepar on Friday, when residents
held a demonstration to demand the demolition of a masjid
project under construction at Curti (H) Oct 15-16, 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture

[Goanet] DELAYED EMAIL MSGS: Was Re: Of Castes, Religion and Gulf Goans

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use 
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board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX.

http://bmxgoa.com

There's a reason for the delay, Sunith.

If you post in a non-text format, your post has to be sent to a
volunteer, reformatted, and then come up for approval once again. A
waste of time, unnecessary delays, and additional work for the
(overworked) admin volunteer team. Please therefore, all posters, take
the easy way out and talk to Bosco [EMAIL PROTECTED] for how to
configure your software to send only plain-text mail. Tell him what
combination of software and ISP you're using, e.g. Outlook/Sancharnet,
Eudora/VSNL, webmail/Gmail, Mozilla/yahoo, whatever... FN

On 28/07/06, velho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well my post appeared on
> goanet almost two days after I e-mailed it and in the meantime you clarified
> a lot of points.
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Triumph over Adversity

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use 
the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message 
board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX.

http://bmxgoa.com

Dear All, Most people though still believe we are fudging or lying
about the number of readers that the Goanet lists have :-) FN
PS: Please do your bit to help, by introducing Goanet to potential
readers. Send in your almost-live reports from Viva Goa and the BMX
(Britto's Mary's Xavier's) stall there. We are all tuned in!

On 28/07/06, Valerie Rodrigues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 

> I was truly surprised at the number of personal e-mails I received in response
> to my article on Joseph Pereira which was kindly posted by George Pinto of Goa
> Sudharop. Since there have also been some requests for Joseph's contact
> details I am, with Joseph's permission, posting his telephone number below. He
> would certainly benefit from orders for his excellent paper bags, especially
> bulk orders from corporates/business establishments.
>
> Joseph can be contacted at Tel : 2745349 / 9850452337
>
>   Regards,
>   Valerie Rodrigues
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] peace initiative- response to Fred

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use 
the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message 
board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX.

http://bmxgoa.com

"Vivek", You're veering off the point. The test is whether the
hypothetical "lawyer" makes a credible case or not. The findings of
the Nandita Haksar-led committee were, to me, very well-founded. While
the BJP and its ideological allies tried to pick holes (tiny ones, for
the most), the larger points she made were very much valid. We are
grateful that so-called "non-Goans" like Nandita are around in Goa to
speak up when most of us Goans would prefer to take a weak-kneed
stance to a matter of vital importance to everyone's future -- social
justice to the people, regardless of their religion.

That Nandita has a solid reputation of standing up for the rights of
the wronged (regardless of race, religion or region) only adds weight
to the report and her work. But that is only incidental.

To answer your question, knowing the facts as they emerged in
Curchorem (including the whipping up of the hysteria by the closeted
BJP-aligned 'Gova Doot' newspaper), I really doubt any Supreme Court
lawyer would be able to do a credible white-wash job on the lines you
suggest below.

If you could give me a report, any report, that looks into the facts
of the Curchorem violence, I would be more than open to reading it.
But don't try to sell me  that bull that "Muslims from outside Goa are
violent" or "only Muslims are building illegal shrines" or even a
non-Goans-versus-Goans sob story meant to win allies among the
Catholic community and play on that urge to find scapegoats that is
ever present in Goan society. FN

On 28/07/06, Vivek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> First of all  must tell you tthat you have been one of
> the very few people on Goanet who are  very balanced
> and least prejudiced. So i have to be very careful
> when i debate with you because probably you will be
> right most of the time :-)
>
> lets say a group of people led by a lawyer from SC who
> defended say some one like dara singh comes out with a
> white paper on the request of bajrang Dal which
> exonerates BJP and RSS from all responsibility and
> shifts the blame on muslims for the riots would you
> give the the same credibility??
>
> If not, and I suspect you wont, could you tell why?
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Happy Birthday: St Britto's, which is 60 years old. Celebrations at St
Jerome's Church Mapusa 11 am on July 30, 2006. Football match Loyola's
vs. Britto's 11 am on July 31, 2006 at the school grounds.

http://bmxgoa.com

BTW, I don't believe that where a person is located gives or deprives
him or her of the right to comment on a certain issue. In the past, I
have myself criticised some Goanetters for thinking they know how
things work in Goa (like the intricate machine called the Press, for
instance) while being "half a globe away". But this is because they
were talking through their hat, and based on half-knowledge, and a
superficial understanding of the media on the basis of what they read
in cyberspace.

For the record, I would prefer not to join the likes of "Vivek", who
tries to further disenfranchise expats by suggesting they don't have a
right to a stand on local issues or might not know anything
substantial about the same. The test here should be whether one is
talking sense or nonsense.

This is a typically Goan trait: when we don't like what someone says,
we try to question his/her right to say it. From being a
"fence-sitter", I have speedily graduated to being a "very biased
person".  I've also seen historians exclude with the
do-you-read-Portuguese question at conferences. Or locals chide expats
with the what-kind-of-a-Goan-are-you-when-you-dont-know-Konkani
stance. Or, even the recent do-you-know-these-guys-are-Brahmins rotten
logic.

Elisabeth's point of building Goa as a 'shopping' destination draws a
mixed response from me. The environmentalist in me abhors a
civilisation which is based so very strongly on consumerism. It's a
sin when people are going to bed hungry. Our growing mountains of
garbage in Goa too tell us it's unsustainable.

My limited travels within countries like Germany, Sweden and Finland
(and increasingly even supposedly Third World regions in Singapore,
urban Malaysia or Thailand) never cease to surprise me as to how
people spend so much of their lives shopping, in malls, and otherwise
addictively but enjoyably struggling at lending meaning to a
relatively meaningless existence. It's almost as if shopping has
become a new 'religion' for the millions (much like Santosh has made
Science his religion... sorry, couldn't resist this Gobbelsian
propaganda and unfair dig yet once again! Let see if someone starts
believing it if I repeat it often enough.)

On the other hand, Goa has been a huge influence at the intersection
of world cultures precisely at that point in history when it was a
meeting place of cultures, of people (even if sometimes violently so),
and an emporium of world ideas and products. Both in the colonial
Portuguese and pre-Portuguese days.

So, Elisabeth's suggestion might not be such a bad one, particularly
if if adapted and amended to Goa's requirements.

Despite my infactuation and fairly longstanding love affair with IT
and what it can do for us humans (BytesForAll, GNU/Linux, Free
Software, etc), I believe Goa should stop trying to build up itself as
an IT power. We simply can't compete with the size and talent of the
Bangalores, the Hyderabads, the Punes, and now the Hublis and even the
Thiruvananthapurams. We should instead just focus on making our place
a No 1 destination for IT meetings, conferences and shopping fairs of
all kinds. That way, rather than being an also-ran, we could have a
unique position on the Indian IT map.

And, we said we weren't shopping for ideas? FN

On 29/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The singular cry of some Goans in Goa, seems to be
> that anyone in diaspora shouldn't comment on topics
> relating to Goa, as all our opinions emanate from
> "armchairs".
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] PUCL and biased reporting

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Happy Birthday: St Britto's, which is 60 years old. Celebrations at St
Jerome's Church Mapusa 11 am on July 30, 2006. Football match Loyola's
vs. Britto's 11 am on July 31, 2006 at the school grounds.

http://bmxgoa.com

> I will provide another example of the mischiveous and
> biased "fact finding" reports circulated by PUCL and
> its associated orgnization (I call them associated
> because the PUCL website carries this report)

"Vivek", Why are you so upset with an attempt to hold an
anti-communalism camp in Goa in mid-August? Do you feel this would
expose the real communalists?

There is an attempt to block debate by discrediting organisations
which have been doing pioneering work. Unlike you, I don't see things
in terms of being "pro-Muslim", "anti-Hindu", or "pro-Christian". We
need to defend the underdog, regardless of which religion he or she
belongs to.

PUCL is a prominent Indian organisation that has been doing much
appreciated work for years. Anyway, how is this relevant to the issue
we are debating?

The issue is: a forthcoming anti-communalism workshop planned in Madkai.

>From there, you shift attention by pointing to the Curchorem riots.
>From there, you move on to make unsubstantiated charges against one of
the most respected human rights lawyers in India, Nandita Haksar. From
there, Vivek goes on to lambast the PUCL (People's Union for Civil
Liberties), another prestigious human rights organisation in India.
Then, he points to a Committee for Protection of Democratic Rights
Mumbai (CPDR) report, which is part of the PUCL report, and uses his
twisted interpretation to blast the PUCL!

At the end of the day, you're only exposing your real goal --
discrediting anyone who takes on issues of communalism. I think the
so-called "non-Goans" like Nandita Haksar and Vidyadhar Gadgil have
done a great job in standing up for the truth, much more than what we
so-called "Goans" could hope to achieve in three lifetimes. Please
don't try to cloud the issues by raising a smokescreen. FN

PS: My only regret is that we have hardly any people of a Christian
background who are taking on the communalists within their own
community. And there are many; who often assume you can't be communal
simply because one belongs to a minority religion! We have a lot to
learn from the anti-communal campaigns of people from the other parts
of India.
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Pandurang Fernandes

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Happy Birthday: St Britto's, which is 60 years old. Celebrations at St
Jerome's Church Mapusa 11 am on July 30, 2006. Football match Loyola's
vs. Britto's 11 am on July 31, 2006 at the school grounds.

http://bmxgoa.com

For those wanting to know more about this subject, check Shaila de
Souza's interesting paper which refers to this communit(ies)y
http://wapurl.co.uk/?QJDCFX8 (HTML) or
http://www.lusotopie.sciencespobordeaux.fr/desouzaS.rtf  (PDF/RTF format)
Shaila is at the Goa University, and has an interesting perspective to
researching Goa. FN

The Community Studied

The Gauda community were earlier a tribal community as social,
cultural and religious indicators will prove, although the Government
of Goa does not consider the community as such7. Today they are
demanding " tribal " status to claim discriminatory privileges from
the State.

The following account is based on several months of field work in a
small village in North Goa where the Gauda community are its chief
inhabitants with a total population of approximately 300 people in 30
households. They were in earlier times a nomadic tribe involved
primarily in cultivating chiefly rice, a cereal (nachne), chillies and
other vegetables in areas surrounding their settlements or engaged as
landless labourers in interior parts of Goa. After conversion to
Christianity, several families moved to the coastal areas and were
involved in construction activity, road laying and in more recent
times, fishing. Today's generation of course is seeking education and
involvement in service (semi-skilled and skilled) with the government,
private organisations and as domestic labour in households.

  Most of the conversion of this community to Christianity took place
in the 1620s (Malhotra 1978) as they aspired for a better economic
status as well as liberation from persecution and forced exile (Xavier
1993). The Portuguese used economic incentives to encourage conversion
during their colonisation of Goa and did little by way of ridding the
indigenous society of the prevalent caste system, and in fact " used "
the caste system to encourage Brahmin or higher castes to convert by
reserving certain jobs and offices for them (Ifeka 1985, Robinson
1997, 1998). The Gauda community held a rather low status in society
and like most tribal communities, continued even after conversion to
hold this low status as most of the benefits of conversion such as
employment at senior government levels as well as monetary benefits
were enjoyed chiefly by Goan converts of the Brahmin and Kashtriya
castes (Ifeka 1985). Even today most families of the Gauda community
continue to remain at the lower economic strata of society. It was as
recent as 1928 when sections of the Gauda community was " re-converted
" to Hinduism through the encouragement from the Shuddhi Movement
(Kakodkar 1988) and are now referred to as Nav-Hindu Gaudas or New
Hindus. Although there is often the mention of " re-conversion " to
Hinduism, the Gauda community must have had their own tribal religion
prior to conversion to Christianity, as there are beliefs, practices
and methods of worship of gods that suggest a faith in a distinct
religion, though not wholly dissimilar to that of the Hindu. Even
today they believe in spirits (devchar) that inhabit certain trees,
water sources, etc. and, as we will see later in the paper, belief in
the goddess Sati, who is not part of the Hindu pantheon. They had no
other images of the gods apart from nature. This conversion is
probably due to the cultural permeation of the Indian State. " The
emergence to dominance of new religions and new systems of philosophy
is (also) not unrelated to the process of struggle between dominant
and subordinate groups " (Chatterjee 1989 : 171). Interestingly,
several families continue to go by their previous Christian names,
demonstrating probable conversion due to a strategy of survival rather
than self assertion.

On 29/07/06, Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> A conceivably fair criticism of me because my
> perspective cannot be guaged by a stranger from a
> distance. But suggesting by implication that my
> real-life Chimbelche friends were mongrels is very
> unfair. I knew several people in Chimbel with old
> Hindu first names and Catholic surnames because they
> were reconverted Hindus.
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] SEZ ......- organising a meeting/Edwin

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Happy Birthday: St Britto's, which is 60 years old. Celebrations at St
Jerome's Church Mapusa 11 am on July 30, 2006. Football match Loyola's
vs. Britto's 11 am on July 31, 2006 at the school grounds.

http://bmxgoa.com

Elisabeth, want a meeting? Let's meet up here
http://www.gabbly.com/lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2006-July/date.html
or http://shrunklink.com?hzj

And this is open to any other Goanetter who wants to exchange views,
or just blow off steam. FN

On 29/07/06, Elisabeth Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If you do organise a meeting, some of us would like to
> contribute in absentia.

-- 

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Re: [Goanet] portuguese Kolvont

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

Happy Birthday: St Britto's, which is 60 years old. Celebrations at St
Jerome's Church Mapusa 11 am on July 30, 2006. Football match Loyola's
vs. Britto's 11 am on July 31, 2006 at the school grounds.

http://bmxgoa.com

On 29/07/06, Albert Desouza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear netters
> Actually the word kolvont means artist. Portuguese kolvont was actually a
> nice tiatr where there was nothing vulgar but a real good story except that
> the goans were not used to the word kolvont as we all felt that there would
> be lot of dirt in it and due to curosity many people crowed in the first few
> shows but later on others got the news that it bears a very good story and
> so people appreciated the tiatr. It was staged in 1980 and went on .I
> remember I could not see the tiatr because I was acting in Fr.Freddy's Niz
> mog at that time and sometimes the artist from that tiatr were also acting
> in some of our shows.
> albert

It's a complex reality:

Title : Goa kalavants : Comming out of devadasi mould
Author : Pamela D'Mello
Publication : The Asian Age
Date : July 17, 1996

Devadasis  in  neighbouring  states  still  languish   in
humiliation.  But over the past seven decades this  caste
group,   euphemistically  termed  "slaves  of  god"   has
triumphed over adversity and become a major success story
in Goa.

Like  in neighbouring Karnataka and Maharashtra, Goa  too
had  a system of temple-artists, which  degenerated  into
prostitution.

But  concerted  efforts  by the  community  to  extricate
themselves  from this plight has made the Gomant  Maratha
Samaj, as they are now known, a professionally and  well-
educated, prosperous Goan community.  Quite a few  famous
Goan  names  in science, business, medicine and  art  and
even  in  politics,  where  it  has  produced  two  chief
ministers  and  a  former president of  the  Goa  Pradesh
Congress (I) hail from this community.

Kalavants  (or artists as they were known)  who  migrated
out  of  Goa did well for  themselves  and  distinguished
themselves in music.  Some of the biggest names in Indian
music trace their roots to this community in Goa,  though
the  stigma  unfairly attached to them  probably  compels
them to play down these links.

Prominent  Gomant  Maratha Samaj  campaigners  say  Goa's
former  devasdasi  and Kalavant class of  temple  artists
were  never temple dancers, but actually dancers  in  the
then flourishing temples.

Portuguese  colonial  rulers  called  them   "balladares"
(singers).  Later, with the religious intolerance of  the
Portuguese  rulers,  the temples shifted and  lost  their
glory.

Kalavants fled to the neighbouring Bombay province, where
they had joined the music gharanas to perfect their  art.
A   few  fell  into  prostitution,  others   became   the
mistresses  of the rich.  Kalavants who remained  in  Goa
bitterly  complain  that they were  exploited  by  temple
mahajans and dominant castes.  But they began  organising
themselves  after  the  post- 19 1 0  liberal  period  of
Portuguese  rule,  when  the Gomantak  Gayan  Samaj  (Goa
Singers Society) was formed.  It was broadened to include
other categories of temple workers and sub-castes.

In  Mumbai  and  Goa, a kind of  social  reform  movement
gained wind.  Educated youngsters from the community were
keen to open nursing schools to rehabilitate women.  Ibis
trend  was particularly visible as Goa's first two  chief
ministers,  affluent  mine owner D.B. Bandodkar  and  his
daughter,   Shashikala   Kakodkar,   hailed   from   this
community.  "There is a trend in the younger  generation,
those who are better educated do not want to accept their
origins anymore," says writer Archana Kakodkar.

Reproduced by: http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1996_7/msg00093.html
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[Goanet] News of Viva Goa 2006?

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

So where's that news from Viva Goa? Thanks to broadband connections
becoming more widespread in Goa, we here can tune in more closely to
the outside world now!

As an aside: after 11 years of being on the internet, I've just
stopped pay-by-the-minute dialup one year back, got unlimited dialup
since then, shifted to broadband about four months back, and got
unlimited dialup at Rs 900 per month/256Kbps since the last
month-and-half!

Coming back to Viva Goa, a little bird tells me that among our
notorious Goanetters (we should also start a new category called
Goanetostics -- cyberagnostics who aren't sure whether they like
Goanet or not, but love posting here all the same) the following were
among those present: Kevin Saldanha, Lisette, Bosco, Helga, Joachim,
Tony Fernandes, Silviano, Edgar Silveira, Dr. Jose Colaco, Ben Antao,
Merwyn Lobo and Aunty !

FN
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] viva goa

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May
 There is no better, value for money, guest house.
  Confirm your bookings early or miss-out

  Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation.

It *is* sometimes difficult to see what's happening from half-way
round the globe, Eugene. Specially when one has been
short-sighted/myopic since Standard II and the age of seven years old!
Sorry for missing you out, my friend. No offence meant. FN
PS: Can we have any photos from Viva Goa? Can someone upload them to
http://flickr.com

On 30/07/06, Eugene Correia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Fred mentioned some names of goanetters but missed me
> (ha, ha).
-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Vipassana Meditation in Goa

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May
 There is no better, value for money, guest house.
  Confirm your bookings early or miss-out

  Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation.

We have a few Goanetters themselves into Vipassana meditation.
Including Mario & Muriel Mascarenhas. FN
PS: Copying this mail to some of them.

On 31/07/06, ralph rau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Does any goa based netter know where the Vipassan meditators meet for
> group sittings in Goa ?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Ralph

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Re: [Goanet] Annual Goanetters Meet

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May
 There is no better, value for money, guest house.
  Confirm your bookings early or miss-out

  Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation.

We usually hold a meet in end-December. But Dec 24 is too close to
Xmas and Dec 31 just before New Year's. We try to have it between Dec
17 and 23, or Dec 27 to 29. Unfortunately, much of the organising
falls onto me by default. If someone else is willing to take up the
initiative this year, we could work out more plans. (But please don't
create ideas and pass on the work to someone else. Those making the
suggestions should also be willing to implement!) --FN

On 31/07/06, ralph rau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Is some kind of Annual Goanetters meet planned? Maybe during the next December
> holiday season ? -  Sunday 24th or 31st December is a suggestion. The goanet
> moderator could shortlist a selection of speakers from amongst the most
> prolific contributors. With all the dialogues, debates and diatribes raging
> over the web the whole year round it would be good to meet up and shake hands
> occassionally before 'ringing the bell' for the next round ?

-- 

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Re: [Goanet] Secular Initiative

[Frederick \"FN\" Noronha]

* G * O * A * N * E * T  C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S *

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To be more blunt, the 'outsider business', as Gadgil calls it, is a
calculated attempt by shrewdies like Manohar Parrikar to win over an
influential and eloquent section of Catholic Goan public opinion to
his side, while he tries his communal/caste games with the Hindu side
of the electorate. And it's not without takers.  Just like he did
manage to sell his "good governance" mantra to affluent (read, upper
claste) Goan Catholics just before the 2002 elections.

Many are willing to buy this logic. Chauvinism runs deep (not just in
Goa, but across India, in Europe, the US, and many other places where
divide-and-rule politics replace all need for ideology or a decent
program). FN

On 31/07/06, Vidyadhar Gadgil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This 'outsider' business is a red herring, frequently used strategically
> by the Sangh Parivar to try and keep people in Goa from uniting against
> communal forces. We saw it employed with some success in the case of
> Sanvordem-Curchorem; the argument was that 'outsiders' had come into Goa
> and disturbed things here, and thus deserved what they got (though this
> was not actually said in so many words, it was clearly implied). People
> here have been falling for this red herring with depressing regularity.
-- 

Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org  9822122436 +91-832-240-9490
4000+ copylefted photos to share from Goa http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
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