Re: [Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India+ the seventh sin
JC's response to Vasant Baliga (VB) Dear Vasantbab .Thank you for the courtesy of your well thought out response. My own thoughts are interspersed. VB [1]: The military takeover of Goa was, in my opinion, wrong and misplaced and was contrary to India's professed foreign policy at that time-Nehru spoiled the global image of India for temporary political gain and perhaps to divert public attention from other pressing matters. JC [1]: Professed policies and lip service having been noted, 1961 was an opportune time to divert attention from the other issues facing the populace especially as a general election loomed. Politicians have only one goal i.e. re-election. That is the only method of retaining power, influence and amassing wealth while producing this drama about 'service' and 'democratic will of the people'. -- VB [2]: Although Salazar was adamant against negotiation on Goa,sooner or later Portugal would have negotiated-subsequent events proved that with the collapse of his fascist dictatorship in the mid seventies and the Carnation revolution. JC [2]: If one really believes in democracy, one should start with consulting the people for whom 'decisions' are being made. Neither Salazar nor Nehru sought to engage Goans in discussions about their future. So, I ask, what democracy? -- VB [3]: Democracy has it’s flaws,but is the only system where a robustly free press, independent judiciary and periodic elections hold people accountable.Dictatorship of any kind can never be a substitute. JC [3]: Democracy is like Milk. Milk is available as Full Fat, 2%, 1% and Fat Free. So also, Democracy. Politicians control funds and licensing of news-media (until recently, even news-print was controlled). The Judiciary at the top is usually principled - but one needs to have money and good legal advice to overcome the hurdles in the lower rungs. And then, we have unscrupulous lawyers -- VB [4]: The PM is personally honest but presides over a corrupt Cabal. Goa suffers in this regard,like the rest of India and has it's share or more of dishonest politicians. JC [4]: But are the members of the 'cabal' not the one's who have been elected by the process termed as 'democracy'? As far as 'dishonest politicians' are concerned, are you aware of any corrupt Goa politicians (and civil administrators) in the first 60 years of the 20th century? What happened thereafter? -- VB [5]: Now as regards development of Goa from 1961 onwards-it presently has the third highest per capita income of Rupees 1,06,000,just behind Delhi and Chandigarh. JC [5]: The per capita income for Goa was always higher than for Indian States - Such data and figures are skewed (Gaussian distribution) and would benefit from a study of the folks in the middle 95% -- VB [6]: In the Sixties there was no electricity and water supply in the villages and hardly any pucca road connectivity. Literacy is now at 80% as opposed to 30% in 1961. Healthcare access as also telecommunications and road connectivity have also vastly improved. JC [6] Considering that 'water supply' is different from 'availability of water', I would suggest that the vast majority of Goans had more than enough clean drinking well water in 1960. The other indicators (I hope) have also commensurately increased (with time) in Karwar, Sawantvadi, Hubli, North Kanara and Ratnagiri. -- VB [7]: There is no dire poverty in Goa, as we know it, as compared to the rest of India. JC [7]: If true, No difference from 1960 -- VB [8]: Portugal did not invest adequately in Goa's infrastructure-the British did pay attention to India's infrastructure. JC [8]: You mean to suggest that Portugal did not build schools, hospitals, non-collapsing bridges and flood-drainage systems (as in Panjim)? I, for one, would have thought that compared to what resources and wealth Britain took from India, Britain did near-nothing for India. We all know, do we not .WHO swiped the funds belonging to the sons and daughters of the SOIL? Enough for one day from me (:-) jc * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Goa-launch of the well-received *Into The Diaspora Wilderness* by Selma Carvalho on Aug 29, 2010 (Sunday) at 11 am at Ravindra Bhavan, Margao. Meet the author, buy a signed copy (only Rs 295 in Goa till stock lasts). http://selmacarvalho.squarespace.com/
[Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India+ the seventh sin
JC wrote- That having been said I am not so sure that Baliga's assessment of Nehru is accurate, unless Nehru was really daft. I'd only say this about Nehru and ALL other politicians: They take decisions mainly for political expediency. I also believe that there is NO such thing as democracy. There is a facade being presented, and that is all there is to that. The thing we call Democracy is a mechanism used by some to make flowery speeches and extravagant promises to con the naive to elect a set of thieving dictators every 5 years. If you do not believe me . Try get an honest and scrupulous + principled man without money an "election ticket" and elected in 2010. If you are in doubt, call up Tony Correia-Afonso in Benaulim. Yes, He is an honest, upright and capable Goan and also a 'Bharati'. On the matter of Salazar, I would invite Vasant Baliga to expand on the effect of Salazar on the vast majority of Goans antes 1961; I will accept feelings as relevant IF they are based mainly and reasonably on known facts and not on propaganda, hearsay and revisionism. Just as one judges the state of health care in a country by the Infant Mortality Rate (and not what health care is only available to he wealthy), I suggest that the affect and effect of Salazar on Goa could reasonably be assessed on the basis of HOW the poor, indigent and elderly were managing during his stint. Additionally, here are some questions which may be reasonably asked: a: Do the vast majority of Goans feel safer in their homes and on the roads in 2010 v 1961? b: Is the environment better in 2010 v 1961? c: Is Goa cleaner in 2010 v 1961? d: In 1961: Was the standard of living for the average Goan living in Goa better or worse than the average resident of Savantwadi, Ratnagiri, Kawar and surrounding areas? e: Are the folks who ripped Goa's natural sources antes 1961 any different from the ones who are ripping it in 2010? I will skip the topic of the satyagrahis who crossed into Goa for now. I doubt 'satyagrahi' can cross any border in 2010 without meeting similar or even worse consequences. I conclude with this point: It is nice to know that Salazar (according to Vasant Baliga) is very relevant to feelings of Goans (in 2010). I hope the Goans, Baliga refers to, realise that they were recently (in 2010) considered quite irrelevant by Digambar Kamat. Sincerely, jc My Response: Dear JC Baab, Greetings! As regards 1961,Nehru never regretted the take over of Goa but got his comeuppance the next year when the Chinese humiliated him and he died a lonely and broken man in 1964,his Panchshila and Non Alignment Policy in ruins,after he had to grovel before Kennedy in 1962 for Military Aid.The military takeover of Goa was, in my opinion, wrong and misplaced and was contrary to India's professed foreign policy at that time-Nehru spoiled the global image of India for temporary political gain and perhaps to divert public attention from other pressing matters.Although Salazar was adamant against negotiation on Goa,sooner or later Portugal would have negotiated-subsequent events proved that with the collapse of his fascist dictatorship in the mid seventies and the Carnation revolution. Democracy has it’s flaws,but is the only system where a robustly free press,independent judiciary and periodic elections hold people accountable.Dictatorship of any kind can never be a substitute.We saw that during the Emergency rule under Indira Gandhi.Corruption is presently endemic in India,including Goa and is eating at the roots of India's polity.The PM is personally honest but presides over a corrupt Cabal.Goa suffers in this regard,like the rest of India and has it's share or more of dishonest politicians. Now as regards development of Goa from 1961 onwards-it presently has the third highest per capita income of Rupees 1,06,000,just behind Delhi and Chandigarh.All economic,social and infrastructural indices show a great improvement in the last fifty years.In the Sixties there was no electricity and water supply in the villages and hardly any pucca road connectivity.Literacy is now at 80% as opposed to 30% in 1961.Healthcare access as also telecommunications and road connectivity have also vastly improved.There is no dire poverty in Goa, as we know it, as compared to the rest of India.Portugal did not invest adequately in Goa's infrastructure-the British did pay attention to India's infrastructure. a: Do the vast majority of Goans feel safer in their homes and on the roads in 2010 v 1961? Yes and No.The vast majority of Goans ,who lived in Goa, upto1961, were disenfranchised and lived in a continuous state of fear and were suppressed under a dictatorship-a small elite who toed the line and were part of the establishment reaped the fruits.Complete Freedom of Expression and Belief for the majority did not exist and there was no free press.However,law and order was probably better under a dictat
Re: [Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India+ the seventh sin
Guys, just search youtube for "Indian brutality" to know that "Salazar" is quite alive... - Original Message > From: "J. Colaco < jc>" > To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" > Sent: Sun, 22 August, 2010 8:30:53 AM > Subject: Re: [Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India+ >the seventh sin > > On 21 August 2010 01:17, Vasant Baliga wrote thus > to Bernado Colaco: > > [1] If Nehru were alive,he would certainly regret the current state > of India and his beloved Kashmir,but if you think that he would regret > 1961 and the continuation of the Salazar dictatorship,you are sadly > mistaken. > > On the matter of Salazar, I would invite Vasant Baliga to expand on > the effect of Salazar on the vast majority of Goans antes 1961; I will > accept feelings as relevant IF they are based mainly and reasonably on > known facts and not on propaganda, hearsay and revisionism. > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ISSUES BEING DEBATED: In East Africa, despite colonialism, the British afforded the Goan a sliver of a socio-political voice. Read *Into The Diaspora Wilderness* by Selma Carvalho. Soon to be available in Toronto. Pp 290. Via mail-order from goa1...@gmail.com http://selmacarvalho.squarespace.com/
Re: [Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India+ the seventh sin
On 21 August 2010 01:17, Vasant Baliga wrote thus to Bernado Colaco: [1] If Nehru were alive,he would certainly regret the current state of India and his beloved Kashmir,but if you think that he would regret 1961 and the continuation of the Salazar dictatorship,you are sadly mistaken. [2] As another Goanetter said-Goa was integrated into the Indian Union in 1961-live with it and try and better Goa. [3] Why not bring Salazar into the debate?He was the Lord and Master of Goans until 1961 and ruled with a iron fist till 1961 and is very relevant to feelings of Goans on the subject. [4] Just fulminating on Goanet against"Bharat and Bharathis" may satisfy your ego and a few loonies,but does not help Goa. === RESPONSE: I, for one, do not now why the semper-bitter Bernado Colaco goes on ad nauseam about 'Bharatis', as if the term is a derogatory one. He reminds me of the RW chaps in Poona who would call Catholic Goans names like "Krischen", "Salazar" and "Goa", as though we Goans were pro-Salazar or that we were ashamed of our native land i.e. Goa or our faith. Those RV chaps were ignorant about us Goans, and I believe that Bernado Colaco is just as ignorant about "Bharatis'. Vasant Baliga is surely on the button when he suggests that BC may be mere stroking his ego. That having been said I am not so sure that Baliga's assessment of Nehru is accurate, unless Nehru was really daft. I'd only say this about Nehru and ALL other politicians: They take decisions mainly for political expediency. I also believe that there is NO such thing as democracy. There is a facade being presented, and that is all there is to that. The thing we call Democracy is a mechanism used by some to make flowery speeches and extravagant promises to con the naive to elect a set of thieving dictators every 5 years. If you do not believe me . Try get an honest and scrupulous + principled man without money an "election ticket" and elected in 2010. If you are in doubt, call up Tony Correia-Afonso in Benaulim. Yes, He is an honest, upright and capable Goan and also a 'Bharati'. On the matter of Salazar, I would invite Vasant Baliga to expand on the effect of Salazar on the vast majority of Goans antes 1961; I will accept feelings as relevant IF they are based mainly and reasonably on known facts and not on propaganda, hearsay and revisionism. Just as one judges the state of health care in a country by the Infant Mortality Rate (and not what health care is only available to he wealthy), I suggest that the affect and effect of Salazar on Goa could reasonably be assessed on the basis of HOW the poor, indigent and elderly were managing during his stint. Additionally, here are some questions which may be reasonably asked: a: Do the vast majority of Goans feel safer in their homes and on the roads in 2010 v 1961? b: Is the environment better in 2010 v 1961? c: Is Goa cleaner in 2010 v 1961? d: In 1961: Was the standard of living for the average Goan living in Goa better or worse than the average resident of Savantwadi, Ratnagiri, Kawar and surrounding areas? e: Are the folks who ripped Goa's natural sources antes 1961 any different from the ones who are ripping it in 2010? I will skip the topic of the satyagrahis who crossed into Goa for now. I doubt 'satyagrahi' can cross any border in 2010 without meeting similar or even worse consequences. I conclude with this point: It is nice to know that Salazar (according to Vasant Baliga) is very relevant to feelings of Goans (in 2010). I hope the Goans, Baliga refers to, realise that they were recently (in 2010) considered quite irrelevant by Digambar Kamat. Sincerely, jc * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ISSUES BEING DEBATED: In East Africa, despite colonialism, the British afforded the Goan a sliver of a socio-political voice. Read *Into The Diaspora Wilderness* by Selma Carvalho. Soon to be available in Toronto. Pp 290. Via mail-order from goa1...@gmail.com http://selmacarvalho.squarespace.com/
[Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India+ the seventh sin
Colaco of Macau wrote- Arre baliga from where ever you are Nehru wanted to show dadagiri in Goa therefore he created this invasion thing via another ghanti Menon. If Nehru were to live today he would rue the fact what the invasion of 61 has caused to Goa. Please do not bring Salazar into this debate! BC My response- BC Kaka,why are you worried where I am from?Do some research about my ancestors,if you are so curious.It is quite possible we have the same ancestry pre 1510!! The question is-where do you claim to be from?Portugal,Goa,Daman,Diu alias Estado da India or Macau? If Nehru were alive,he would certainly regret the current state of India and his beloved Kashmir,but if you think that he would regret 1961 and the continuation of the Salazar dictatorship,you are sadly mistaken. Instead of living in the past and ruminating about 1961 and earlier,why don't you do think positive for Goa?-Just fulminating on Goanet against"Bharat and Bharathis" may satisfy your ego and a few loonies,but does not help Goa. As another Goanetter said-Goa was integrated into the Indian Union in 1961-live with it and try and better Goa. Why not bring Salazar into the debate?He was the Lord and Master of Goans until 1961 and ruled with a iron fist till 1961 and is very relevant to feelings of Goans on the subject. BTW are you Bhumiputra,Katputli, Bhaile,Ghanti or Niz Macanese in Macau amongst your Chinese Masters? Just asking Meu Amigo??No hard feelings!!! Best Regards Vasant Baliga
[Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India+ the seventh sin
Arre baliga from where ever you are Nehru wanted to show dadagiri in Goa therefore he created this invasion thing via another ghanti Menon. If Nehru were to live today he would rue the fact what the invasion of 61 has caused to Goa. Please do not bring Salazar into this debate! BC "The seventh sin was the invasion of Goa by bharat. For decades Goa has faced moribund governance by the new rulers of neo colonial Goa." BC Actually,Nehru in 1961 was atoning for his sin of not integrating Goa into India sooner in 1947/48 like the "police" action in Hyderabad from the Nizam!He was atoning for trying to reason with the Tinpot,Crackpot Dictator and Megalomaniac,Salazar(hero to some) into having a negotiated settlement. On a recent visit to Portugal,we were surprised that Salazar was forgotten and no one wanted to talk about him anymore.Even the Pont de Salazar was renamed to Pont 25 de Abril! Finally Portugal got freedom and democracy only in 1974 and was rid of it's dictatorship!
[Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India+ the seventh sin
"The seventh sin was the invasion of Goa by bharat. For decades Goa has faced moribund governance by the new rulers of neo colonial Goa." BC Actually,Nehru in 1961 was atoning for his sin of not integrating Goa into India sooner in 1947/48 like the "police" action in Hyderabad from the Nizam!He was atoning for trying to reason with the Tinpot,Crackpot Dictator and Megalomaniac,Salazar(hero to some) into having a negotiated settlement. On a recent visit to Portugal,we were surprised that Salazar was forgotten and no one wanted to talk about him anymore.Even the Pont de Salazar was renamed to Pont 25 de Abril! Finally Portugal got freedom and democracy only in 1974 and was rid of it's dictatorship! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/António_de_Oliveira_Salazar VASANT BALIGA
[Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India + the seventh sin
The seventh sin was the invasion of Goa by bharat. For decades Goa has faced moribund governance by the new rulers of neo colonial Goa. BC Freedom is not about being free, it is a great responsibility. Freedom does not give us the right to misuse our rights, but it gives us the power to make better choices. This Independence Day, let us stay away from the usual festivities and pledge to free ourselves from the ills that exist in our society to build a better India. For this, we need to get rid of the six deadly sins. Read on. http://in.yfittopostblog.com/2010/08/13/six-deadly-sins-that-plague-india/
[Goanet] As India Celebrates-Six Deadly Sins That Plague India
At the stroke of the midnight hour, when the world sleeps, India will awake to life and freedom – Jawaharlal Nehru on 14 August 1947 Cut to 63 years after freedom and we wake up to an India that our martyrs never dreamed of. Today, India has become a land of more wrongs than rights as our nation is symbolised by abject poverty, corruption, a huge population and lack of transparent governance, to name a few ills. India is free; so are we, but have we really valued the freedom that has been granted to us by martyrs who fought valiantly so that we could be born free? Do we think it’s a part of our legacy that has been passed on to us through the years? Freedom is not about being free, it is a great responsibility. Freedom does not give us the right to misuse our rights, but it gives us the power to make better choices. This Independence Day, let us stay away from the usual festivities and pledge to free ourselves from the ills that exist in our society to build a better India. For this, we need to get rid of the six deadly sins. Read on. http://in.yfittopostblog.com/2010/08/13/six-deadly-sins-that-plague-india/
