[Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Cornel, you may not agree with me, but I think we should pay tribute to the colonial Catholic Church of Goa for making Catholic bamons of Goa a rather homogeneous group. Unlike Goan Hindu brahmins who claim themselves to be Gaud Saraswats, Prabhus, Daivadnyas, Karhades, Deshasthas, Chitpavans, etc. Goan catholic bamons are simply bamons, period; though a few may claim themselves to be of Gaud Saraswat denomination.(vide Gazetteer of India - Goa, Daman Diu ) When *I say* colonial Catholic Church, it does not necessarily mean the Portuguese Patriarch, but his no: 2 in the Goa diocese namely '' A sua santidade bramanica ''the Vicar General, who was inevitably a Goan bamon.
[Goanet] Caste and creed in Goa
*Caste and creed in Goa* ** All Indians are Hundu Hindu, Hindu Christian and even some are Hindu Muslims; as one Arab muslim said to me once long ago in a Gulf state. Joao worries: I don't understand these contradictory terms. I thought that someone who believes in Krishna is a Hindu, someone who believes in Jesus is a Christian, and someone who believes in Mohamet a Muslim. I am confused ... Help! When I said to him there are many muslims in India; he spokke of them as Hindu Muslim. That surprised me then.
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
From: Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Hi Cornel, I respect your position and your concern with racism. That is a given. ...Some of those ecclesiastics are in happy retirement now. Three others are in Rome for training, and life may change. I mean people become priests for various reasons, including mothers wanting their sons to be Bishops, and possibly Pope. Think about that. Let them deal with their own. What people could do, and it may not be you--unless you are on the ground in Goa, practicing with the people making them aware--helping them see, seek meaning identity within their Christianity. It cannot happen otherwise--almost impossible. ***Dear Venantius J.Pinto, I was laughing when I read that priests embrace priesthood for different reasons, including mothers wanting their sons to be Bishops, and possibly Pope. We do believe in vocation for priesthood, as well as in the providential love of God. I know that you too believe that. Today being a Bishop and Pope is a real burden. I do not think that many want it. Some may aspire to it. But then someone has to be a Bishop and a Pope. That is also God's call. Today many mothers may not want their children to become priests and nuns in this hedonistic society. They may think differently. But the reality is also not much pleasant... There are also priests coming form one-son families. It is a divine vocation. We have to be sure today more than ever about the priesly identity. It is a vocation within the Christian vocation. Thanks for being so much concerned about the Church in Goa. In general, people are not gracious. I have often told my idiotic acquaintances, idiotic friends, and idiotic relatives and family--to choose grace over uncalled for harshness. But also to have that ready in some measure. But this needs discernment. It happens over time. By that point we will be in our late 60s--those among us who are alive. I am strictly talking of my friends, relatives and family. ***I am also feeling it to be funny that you find idiotic friends everywhere. There are always good and bad friends. As Napoleon Buonaparte was praying: Lord, deliver me from my friends. From my enemies can I deliver myself. As you admit, we all need discernment in the Spirit. Regards. Fr.Ivo From: CORNEL DACOSTA cor...@btinternet.com Hi Venantius Ever so well said below that?I can't resist this GoaNet post. Venantius, may I suggest that you could add one more point in your key?first paragraph below.?Belief in and practice of caste is ipso facto?racist and of course, racism?is?abhorred in any civilised society let alone a Christian one. That the Catholic Church in Goa has been complicit in?it for half a millennium and that so many of?the clergy?across its hierarchy in Goa and the Goan Diaspora uphold this foul creed?and never say anything against it surely doesn't say much about the integrity of this religion.?And Vasant, if interested, please see GoaNet archives where I have, over six years at least, written extensively and critically on several dimensions?of caste among the Catholic Goans. I have also done so?elsewhere and continue to do so.? Cornel DaCosta
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Dear Vasant and all goanetters, My reply is this: it is simple. All Indians are Hundu Hindu, Hindu Christian and even some are Hindu Muslims; as one Arab muslim said to me once long ago in a Gulf state. When I said to him there are many muslims in India; he spokke of them as Hindu Muslim. That surprised me then. So my conclusion is that the casteism comes from all our Hindu ancestry. It is difficult to shake off the Hindu ancestry and casteism prevailing all around you. I am not making apologies for Hindu Christians, who call their caste, if a superior one. U will notice that Christians witout Hindu ancestry like say some Anglo Indians and foreigners do not have any caste class or bias. Therefore the caste and casteism of the original Hindu, the resident born Indian is to blame for for the CURSE and Ignomany of the Caste System. Only the Hindu remained Hindu community can rid India of this casteism that is Racism, indeed. The Hindus are not doing anything about it. In fact the RSS, the BJP are all casteist and want to enforce casteist Rule everywhere. Look around you! What a SHAME!! In this day and age. How can anyone make eexcuses for such an affront to humanity. Yak! Go and wash your Sins against humanity in the Ganga that is already dirty, with so many Sins washed away over the centuries. Even our rivers cannot escape this dirt and Curse of Hinduism! Dear Vasant, do U not think this problem calls for complete REFORM among Indians? I hope U do. Nascy Caldeira. --- On Thu, 12/8/10, Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com wrote: Nascy wrote- I wonder, what caste, U G Barad, R Parrikar. M Parrikar, CM Kamat, and other saffron wallahs belong to. And Santosh Helekar, is he of mixed caste? Hindu India is laughable indeed! A BIG LOL. Giving all Indians a BAD Name. I think it is high time that the world community takes action against this type of racism, and segregation. Nascy. Dear Nascy, I can't agree with you more-Hindu India is laughable indeed-the caste system is a scourge and a disgrace-but Catholic Goa and India needs also to do some soul searching.For the last 40 years as I embraced Goa due to marriage, Goan socialising(anywhere) has amazed and shocked me about the concerns of Bamonn,Chaddo,Khapri,Mestizo,Bardezkar etc,etc...just as I thought I was rid of caste! How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me-before asking Santosh about his caste-ask yourself- Tun Konnalo?And laugh at yourself Mate Do some research about 1510 onwards in Goa before ridiculing Hinduism-the caste system is alive and thriving in Goa-but only in Hinduism?Gimme a break!! Best Regards Vasant Baliga
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Hi Venantius Ever so well said below that I can't resist this GoaNet post. Venantius, may I suggest that you could add one more point in your key first paragraph below. Belief in and practice of caste is ipso facto racist and of course, racism is abhorred in any civilised society let alone a Christian one. That the Catholic Church in Goa has been complicit in it for half a millennium and that so many of the clergy across its hierarchy in Goa and the Goan Diaspora uphold this foul creed and never say anything against it surely doesn't say much about the integrity of this religion. And Vasant, if interested, please see GoaNet archives where I have, over six years at least, written extensively and critically on several dimensions of caste among the Catholic Goans. I have also done so elsewhere and continue to do so. Cornel DaCosta From: Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Wednesday, 11 August, 2010 22:35:59 Subject: Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa Dear Vasant, Christians must not practice caste. Period. THEY MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT in professed egalitarian spirit-have anything to do with caste. This is true, and complex as may become more apparent by the end of this post. The charm of most system is they inherently involve exogamy and endogamy; although remarkably not exclusive Of course people do not wish to loose their sense of belonging, and others want/seek parity and even benign equality, They cannot deal with the idea of being Outcast themselves, but the idea of knowing where they stand as in Tum Konnalo is admirably ingenious don't you think? Most of the are from reasonably superior stock anyways. Besides the Hindus do not need this except for deeper specifics. I lived with a Hindu family for five year, and Baba would say, te vihirintle pav kha'un bhatle gele, but considered me as part of the family. An outsider who had come in, From: Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com To: Goanet goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa (del) How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me (del)
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
From: Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com Nascy wrote- I wonder, what caste, U G Barad, R Parrikar. M Parrikar, CM Kamat, and other saffron wallahs belong to. And Santosh Helekar, is he of mixed caste? Hindu India is laughable indeed! A BIG LOL. Giving all Indians a BAD Name. I think it is high time that the world community takes action against this type of racism, and segregation. Nascy. Dear Nascy, I can't agree with you more-Hindu India is laughable indeed-the caste system is a scourge and a disgrace-but Catholic Goa and India needs also to do some soul searching. For the last 40 years as I embraced Goa due to marriage, Goan socialising (anywhere) has amazed and shocked me about the concerns of Bamonn, Chaddo, Khapri, Mestizo, Bardezkar etc,etc...just as I thought I was rid of caste! How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me-before asking Santosh about his caste-ask yourself- Tun Konnalo?And laugh at yourself Mate Do some research about 1510 onwards in Goa before ridiculing Hinduism-the caste system is alive and thriving in Goa-but only in Hinduism? Gimme a break! Best Regards Vasant Baliga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians ***Dear Vasant Baliga and Nasci, It is good to do some soul searching regarding the social evils of the Indians and Goans. We see the differences of Konkani dialects, castes, races in Goa. They are ingrained in our ethos. Dialects bring variety and spice in linguistic life. We find also races, as well as castes. Our ancestors were Hindus, therefore we had Hindu names and Hindu customs and mores. We would like to find out our Hindu roots (ancestors), including their castes. By being Christians, we do not forget our castes, there is nothing wrong in it. What is wrong is to discriminate and oppress our people on the basis of class or caste. St.Francis Xavier would not like the Brahmins, because they were oppressing (they were cunning) the poor people. By being Christians, we know that all are God's children, and therefore, we cannot discriminate and oppress our own brethren. Apartheid is a crime against humanity, casteist untouchability is a crime. Saint Paul had to face the problem of slavery. In the letter to Philemon, Saint Paul urges Philemon to treat his slave, Onesimus, who had stolen from his master and run away from Colossae, --he could have even been killed by the master--, as a brother in the Lord (v.16), because both of them became Christians through the teaching of Paul. Paul expects a change in the system of slavery through Christian teaching and conversion. The system of slavery would be transformed and even disappear smoothly. The caste system will disappear slowly. Caste system was originally based on division of occupation and kept India in equilibrium, but later it became oppressive and anti-human. Christianity urges us to treat well everyone, but it cannot remove the marks of ethnic or caste differences. It is not wrong to know to which class we belong, but it is wrong to oppress people because of lower class. I had intelligent students among the lower classes (which we did not even know sometimes), but I would always encourage the weaker students, of whatever social group they might be coming. In our families, we could not even pronounce the names of castes as bad words. But little by little, we came to know about the background of some families, to which caste they belong. The lifestyle also may change according to class, caste, religion, culture, education, politeness. In the past, the question Tum konnalo? could refer to caste or to family. It remained in the folklore. People would know families from different villages (even in the cities, though a little less) and would be happy to identify them or help them. Cujo filho és? would be a normal question. Hiondu names and surnames would help to know the caste, as even today. But Christian names and surnames removed a lot of guessing. It would be wrong to ill-treat students because of their caste. Regarding marriage, we may encourage intercaste marriage, but we must be careful because of marriage problems due to social condition. It may not be possible to reconcile them or keep them together when conflicts arise. Today there is more mixture of young people. When speaking of caste system in Goa, we have to bear in mind all these factors. Life in Goa is not so bad as it is being depicted, as far as caste system is concerned. Regards. Fr.Ivo To konna'lo? Is one such, with its Several inflexions according to gender and number: Tem konnalem, ti konna'li, te konna'le, tea Konna'leo, Tim konna'lim. Literally, the phrase means, Which family does he belong To? or Who are his parents? It is apparently a simple Interrogative, an expression of normal, healthy curiosity, Expressing the concern that one human being has for another. But to those who know their Konkani and
[Goanet] Caste and creed in Goa
I think in Da mao there is no caste among the Catholics. I wonder why? Is there any study in this respect? I wonder why in Goa the Catholics are defensive? BC My reply is this: it is simple. All Indians are Hundu Hindu, Hindu Christian and even some are Hindu Muslims; as one Arab muslim said to me once long ago in a Gulf state. When I said to him there are many muslims in India; he spokke of them as Hindu Muslim. That surprised me then.
[Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Nascy wrote- I wonder, what caste, U G Barad, R Parrikar. M Parrikar, CM Kamat, and other saffron wallahs belong to. And Santosh Helekar, is he of mixed caste? Hindu India is laughable indeed! A BIG LOL. Giving all Indians a BAD Name. I think it is high time that the world community takes action against this type of racism, and segregation. Nascy. Dear Nascy, I can't agree with you more-Hindu India is laughable indeed-the caste system is a scourge and a disgrace-but Catholic Goa and India needs also to do some soul searching.For the last 40 years as I embraced Goa due to marriage, Goan socialising(anywhere) has amazed and shocked me about the concerns of Bamonn,Chaddo,Khapri,Mestizo,Bardezkar etc,etc...just as I thought I was rid of caste! How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me-before asking Santosh about his caste-ask yourself- Tun Konnalo?And laugh at yourself Mate Do some research about 1510 onwards in Goa before ridiculing Hinduism-the caste system is alive and thriving in Goa-but only in Hinduism?Gimme a break!! Best Regards Vasant Baliga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians To konna'lo? By Lucio Rodrigues Konkani has its own unique expressions -- words, Phrases, idioms, proverbs, and other folksy Linguistic miracles which defy translation into any Other language. To konna'lo? Is one such, with its Several inflexions according to gender and number: Tem konnalem, ti konna'li, te konna'le, tea Konna'leo, Tim konna'lim. Literally, the phrase means, Which family does he belong To? or Who are his parents? It is apparently a simple Interrogative, an expression of normal, healthy curiosity, Expressing the concern that one human being has for another. But to those who know their Konkani and belong to the social Matrix of Goa, the phrase is far from simple and innocuous. True, it does express curiosity, but the curiosity is not the Elementary curiosity of a mere individual. It is the highly Sophisticated curiosity of the community, or organised Society. The phrase is a masterpiece of verbal economy and Semantic subtlety. It implies a social and moral attitude That is the result of a whole way of life rooted in the soil Of Goa. Though the phrase is known to all, it is never used Indiscriminately. It is not to be bandied about in the street Or in the market-place. You cannot just speak it out glibly, Or shout it out brazenly. Even in the drawing-room or the Dance-hall, you cannot mouth it tactlessly. To do so would be The height of impertinence, and you would be summarily Condemned as a very ill-mannered yokel. In fact, the use of the phrase calls for the proper occasion And situation, the proper place and time, and above all, the Most practised gesture and inflexion of voice. Its utterance Is part of a code. Goan society is based on a traditional hierarchy which has Its origins in ancient Hindu India. It is a hierarchy of many Tiers, arranged in a descending scale, each tier made up of a Homogeneous group, with its own status, its own privileges And responsibilities, its own loyalties, and its own code Of honour, which have to be zealously guarded. An individual's place in this hierarchy is Determined solely by the accident of birth. The Gods decide it all for you: you are born into a Family which belongs to one of the social tiers, And there you belong, there you stay. Like the Fixed stars in the heavens, you have your fixed Station in the social firmament, and your set Orbit. In the good old days, before emigration and the spread of Education began to disturb the feudal stability of life in Goa, everyone knew practically everyone else. Your identity Was known, not only who you were but also where you belonged. This is generally true in the villages even today. Such was The thoroughness with which the hierarchic social system was Perpetuated that a large number of Hindu surnames could be Interpreted as marks of identification which placed you Definitely in one of the social tiers. However, an accident of history took place to disturb the old Social order. Foreign conquest and conversion in the Sixteenth century introduced new ideas of a free and equal Society in Goa. The logic of the principle that all men are Equal was a challenge to the traditional hierarchic practice, And the situation was fraught with perils. But the challenge had to be faced. Habits die hard; Position and privilege cannot be easily Surrendered; group loyalties cultivated over the Centuries cannot be given up. The new ideas of Social mobility were a threat to the homogeneity of The group. The purity of the social group had to be Maintained, the well-being of the members
Re: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa
Dear Vasant, Christians must not practice caste. Period. THEY MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT in professed egalitarian spirit-have anything to do with caste. This is true, and complex as may become more apparent by the end of this post. The charm of most system is they inherently involve exogamy and endogamy; although remarkably not exclusive Of course people do not wish to loose their sense of belonging, and others want/seek parity and even benign equality, They cannot deal with the idea of being Outcast themselves, but the idea of knowing where they stand as in Tum Konnalo is admirably ingenious don't you think? Most of the are from reasonably superior stock anyways. Besides the Hindus do not need this except for deeper specifics. I lived with a Hindu family for five year, and Baba would say, te vihirintle pav kha'un bhatle gele, but considered me as part of the family. An outsider who had come in, Often people want different things in various aspects of their lives. Even ones (both Goan Hindus and Christians) who may not say out loud---who and what they, or where their antecedents stretch from--have the security of being part of something--a certain way of being, which also involves who one loves, marries, what one eats, how one dresses, etc, etc. Modernity brings a certain levelling, but not always a change in thinking--towards seeing a lot less more, of certain pasts. How much more? I think that depends on the individual, their hurts and personal banshees. Finally, the idea of Jesus and caste hankerings is a peculiar Indian Christian issue. Very often the reminders to Christians of Jesus' Way (say, Love, also Rejection) come from non-Christians. Its admirable (as in full of Love) when done in the right spirit. In 2000 I did a piece, Cherub visitation, where these cherubs are visiting a Dwarpala--essentially wanting to learn from the big entity, and share. Btw, in this vein there is a book, which freaked a lot of Indians--The Unknown Christ of Hinduism.Caste. To my mind, non-Christians often remind Christians of Jesus and Caste, to suggest tangentially. that they expect more from the Indian Christian. Again very admirable when done in egalitarian spirit and laudable (laudatio) venantius j pinto From: Vasant Baliga vabal...@yahoo.com To: Goanet goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] Caste and Creed in Goa (del) How can the caste system be practised by followers of Jesus-it foxes me (del)
