Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:38:31 +0530 From: Frederick [FN] Noronha * TO: Sapna Sahani: I would not lump all outsiders or tourists in one basket. Among the 'outsiders' (I don't like this term, and wouldn't like to be called an 'outsider' anywhere on the planet or even on Mars!) are people who are deeply interested in Goa. Even assuming everything incorporated in the Black Legend of the Inquisition in Goa is true -- more on Dellon, Buchanan and Priolkar in a future mail -- why would the visitors, specially the tourist, bother about it? To Jason Keith Fernandes: For sure you managed to put the cocky Jason Keith Fernandes on the defensive for once. Haha :-) FN Mario observes: Fred, Nice to see you finally join this thread - albeit far too late to make any original points that have not already been made in response to Sapna Sahani poking this hornet's nest with a verbal stick:-)) BTW, why would you question why anyone bothers with anything? Aren't they free to bother with anything they choose to? Now that Thomas Madden implausibly tells us, The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. [snicker:-))], perhaps we will get the support of JC, Jason, Joao, Ignatius, Eddie and anyone else who was upset at Sapna's original question to support setting up an Inquisition section in the St. Francis of Assisi Church that has been turned into a Museum adjacent to Se Cathedral:-)) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 07:20:46 +0530 From: Frederick \FN\ Noronha f...@goa-india.org I've long wondered over the identity and ideology of a small set of people who have shaped the globe's understanding of the Goa Inquisition. Recently, coming across more critical views[1] that challenges our traditional understanding of the Inquisition only made one more puzzled. Mario observes: Sapna, See how it works in an open forum? The snide responses to your original question, which took umbrage at a non-Goan reminding us about this dark period in Goan Christian history, has generated more discussion about the Inquisition than you probably bargained for:-))
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
For sure you managed to put the cocky Jason Keith Fernandes on the defensive for once. Haha :-) FN 2009/6/13 Jason Keith Fernandes jason.k.fernan...@gmail.com: Dear Sapna, From the sounds of your email it sounds like you are provoking us. What gives you the impression that the cruelties that once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica are not known? How did you come to this information? Clearly it is not that difficult to ascertain as you make it out to be? If at all, there is more (mis)information about the Inquisition than there is information, so perhaps we would do well to investigate that. But I am curious, what exactly do you hope to achieve from broadcasting this information to the visitors to the site? Perhaps you know that the 'information' about the Inquisition, is very often used to place contemporary (and native) Catholics in an uncomfortable position. Is this the intent of your inquiry? If not, then perhaps the lack of awareness about contemporary politics is just another one of your blind spots. My apologies for the terseness of the message, the bite is not intended to offend, merely to make a point.
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
2009/6/12 Sapna Shahani sapnashah...@gmail.com As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curious about Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building but I find it odd that visitors don't know what cruelties once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica. Would love to hear the thoughts of people on this list... I would not lump all outsiders or tourists in one basket. Most tourists come to enjoy themselves, and aren't interested in anything much beyond the sun, sand and other things hedonist. And the food, or a Scarlett Keeling in as much as it affects them. Among the 'outsiders' (I don't like this term, and wouldn't like to be called an 'outsider' anywhere on the planet or even on Mars!) are people who are deeply interested in Goa. Take a Robert Newman, a Prava Rai, a Heta Pandit, a Rahul Goswami ... who may be not ethnically Goan, but know the place quite inside-out. In a way that would embarass many who claim to be Goan by accident of ethnicity. Even assuming everything incorporated in the Black Legend of the Inquisition in Goa is true -- more on Dellon, Buchanan and Priolkar in a future mail -- why would the visitors, specially the tourist, bother about it? In any case, the tourist-visitor to Goa is hardly aware of so many other issues, ranging from the impact of global warming on the Goan coast, to gender equations in Chandor village, or the genetic make-up of the Dhangars of Sattari. --FN
[Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Dr. Barad wrote: We can tackle ALL events at the same time. One should recognize that the inquisition in Goa happened many years before the two that Ignatius has mentioned. If we were to follow his criteria for discussions, then one can always use a recent event to shut down discussionon a previous issue. Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:23:35 +0900 From: Joao Barros-Pereira joaobarrospere...@gmail.com The Inquisition happened centuries ago. No one who is alive today can be held personally responsible. There is a difference, my friend ... Mario asks: Joao, The question asked by Sapna was about the Inquisition. Does the Inquisition have anything to do with the atrocities following the assassination of Indira Gandhi, or sati, or caste, or female infanticide, or bride burning as mentioned by others, or was mentioning these unrelated atrocities just an attempt to deflect attention from the subject? What is the logic that we should discuss unrelated historical events in some particular sequence? Since the Inquisition happened centuries ago and no one today is personally responsible, why do you think some of our friends became so hysterical and rude at Sapna's question, as if they were being personally accused of something, and why were you so keen to avoid the topic as well? The focus on Rough Guides is another red herring to deflect attention from the original question. Incorrect information in Rough Guides could simply be corrected. For example the assertion that the Inquisition was the worst in the world. Clearly there were worse atrocities in history and these could have been pointed out. The last time I checked, Sapna had not asked Goan Christians to be proud of the Inquisition or accused us of any complicity. She only said in her original post that she thinks from her experience that many non-Goans are not aware of it and wondered why and asked for our comments. I'm not even sure her sweeping generality is correct as I know many non-Goans who know about it. I don't understand why Christians should be afraid of discussing this topic - if someone else brings it up, because we obviously have no interest in bringing it up. The Inquisition was a sad fact and it was eventually discontinued. It had nothing to do with what Christ taught. It was a disgrace to Chrisianity, just like the Papal excesses and corruption before the Reformation and the more recent pedophile priest issue. We Christians should be the first to acknowledge internal atrocities, condemn them, and move on, or we risk looking unnecessarily guilty, or defensive or crass. Christians who follow the teachings of Christ have nothing to be ashamed of.
[Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Ignatius Fernandes writes: When Indira Gandhi was assassinated by a Sikh body guard a lot of Sikhs men, women, and children were indiscriminately burned, hacked and murdered by Hindus. My response: Just to set the record straight. The ones who murdered the Sikhs did not do so as Hindus. They did it as Congressmen. Ignatius Fernandes as writes: We should talk of recent events first before we tackle events in previous centuries. My response: We can tackle ALL events at the same time. One should recognize that the inquisition in Goa happened many years before the two that Ignatius has mentioned. If we were to follow his criteria for discussions, then one can always use a recent event to shut down discussion on a previous issue. Best Regards, Dr U. G. Barad
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Dear Mario, Thank you so much for your even-tempered post! It's a relief and gives a sense of balance to the replies I've received on Goanet. I just want to clarify for those to whom it would make a difference that I am not Hindu. My father is Hindu, my mother Catholic, and I was confirmed as Catholic. I am not practicing, but nonetheless am well versed with the Bible and what it means to be 'Christian'. However, regarding visitors knowing about the Inquisition, it's interesting that you've had a different experience with your American friends being aware of Goa's history. As I mentioned before, none of the non-Goans I've ever spoken to have known about it. Nonetheless I completely agree with all your points, particularly that the Inquisition was un-Christian, just like terrorism is to Islam, and I think there is no need to get defensive about the violence perpetrated by colonialists hundreds of years ago. I also agree with your point of view on Slum Dog Millionaire and think that is a good analogy for the discussion we're having because 'understanding the good with the bad in the proper context' was the intention I had in bringing up the Inquisition debate in the first place. But I wish I hadn't written the post now, because I see there are many strong feelings about this issue, and it's something Goans need to reconcile with and decide how to represent these facts to outsiders, or decide not to represent them at all. That would be your prerogative. I am sorry I made my observation public, if it is to have any negative consequence whatsoever. Best, Sapna. PS - On a separate note... I am curious about what Bernardo was referring to when he said it was illegal for me to live in Goa? I can only guess he meant that I was uninvited because I was not Goan. I can empathise with the uneasy feeling that Goa is witnessing an increased migration of people from outside Goa, because I have seen it myself over the past 20 years. But I think it's better to address the issues arising out of the actual negative impact of this migration such as overcrowding of businesses in tourist areas, lack of resources for new migrants, etc...rather than bundling the issue as a discontent towards outsiders. I say this because outsiders have brought a lot of good to the state as well, have they not? I think Goa now boasts some of the best restaurants and hotels in India (and/or the world?). Also, I think the reason some people move here other than the natural beauty, is a perceived acceptance of diversity. So that is something you should be proud of, and make the most out of, since pluralistic societies have shown immense prosperity in the developed world. On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.netwrote: 2009/6/12 Sapna Shahani sapnashah...@gmail.com As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curious about Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building but I find it odd that visitors don't know what cruelties once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica. Would love to hear the thoughts of people on this list... Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:28:49 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com You apear to be a genuine person. So I say to you: If today is the day to wash clothes, and the washing machines are not being used, Let us wash ALL the dirty laundry - in public. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:35:00 +0900 From: Joao Barros-Pereira joaobarrospere...@gmail.com A sign of a civilized and mature people, in my view, is to let bygones be bygones. We have a recorded history of the Inquisition but it does not mean it has to have a place of pride on tourism billboards. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:37:21 + (GMT) From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk First off all your stay in Goa is illegal. Second the In quistion issue has been trashed on this forum. In fact could you tell us about Hatti Mere SATI. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:31:33 +0530 From: Jason Keith Fernandes jason.k.fernan...@gmail.com If at all, there is more (mis)information about the Inquisition than there is information, so perhaps we would do well to investigate that. But I am curious, what exactly do you hope to achieve from broadcasting this information to the visitors to the site? Perhaps you know that the 'information' about the Inquisition, is very often used to place contemporary (and native) Catholics in an uncomfortable position. Is this the intent of your inquiry? If not, then perhaps the lack of awareness about contemporary politics is just another one of your blind spots. My apologies for the terseness of the message, the bite is not intended to offend, merely to make a point. Mario responds: Whoa! What the heck happened here? As the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace I am shocked at the responses so far to a
[Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Dear Sapna, Based on what you say about Rough Guides, yours may be considered as an inadvertent error. Had you stated that you had come across the information in that travel guide or any other it would have come across as a different concern. Please understand that often people formulate a questions or state something which appears as if it is their though, and hence they are held accountable. This is generally a decent forum, but you will learn for yourself. Had you said (please pardon my putting it this way), that you noticed such and such in Rough Guides or elsewhere and could someone shed some light on it, that may have been seen different. No guarantees, but I would hope so. It is a sensitive issue in that there is a lot of convenient misunderstanding walled around it. The ones who responded to you are not sensitive in the way one commonly understands the word, but sensitive enough to get alerted to penning a response. That's is a different kind of awareness, and respecting your having noticed some familiarity in a sentence or two. Rest assured they are some of the most astute people around. Welcome, things will be much better at least from the group that responded. My earlier response may give you some perspective, and is as gentle as the word gentle suggests. I will soon send you my earlier post, since it will be a while before it appears on Goanet. venantius j pinto From: Sapna Shahani sapnashah...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin To: Jason Keith Fernandes jason.k.fernan...@gmail.com Cc: goanet@lists.goanet.org Message-ID: 8c1ee09c0906122150v584d016buce3693a72c0eb...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jason, It wasn't my intention at all to provoke. By the way, I was raised Catholic (I am Anglo-Indian). What gives me the impression that Inquisition information is not known to visitors from outside Goa are my interactions with people I have met over 20 years of living in Goa on and off. Please don't confuse me with right-wing Hindus whom I've been given to understand have used this history to their advantage. I have no affinity for those types, in fact, quite the opposite. I was just struck when I learned that the Inquisition in Goa was possibly one of the worst in the world (according to the Rough Guide). This was years after I had started visiting Goa and after numerous visits to Old Goa. So it made me wonder why I never heard about that before, and I simply wanted to hear perspectives on this subject from this list. I'm sorry if I touched some nerves, I didn't realize it was such a sensitive issue, and I thought this list had intellectuals who could respectfully debate with one another. I hope future posters would reply a little more gently, so as not to scare away first-time posters like myself who may be non-Goan, but have significant respect for the land, and are trying to contribute to the economy in a positive way. In particular Jason, I thought your comment that 'my lack of awareness about contemporary politics is just another one of my blind spots' was out of line. I didnt think we knew each other well enough for you to know any other blind spots that I may have. Best, Sapna.
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 05:10:18 -0400 From: Joe Lobo tw...@pathcom.com As a goan who has spent more time outside Goa, I personally feel that this historical quest of yours is an attempt to stir up events that happened a good 400 years ago or so.which will engender communal discord between the Hindu and Christian communities. Mario asks: Joe, Kitem mhontai, re? Are you saying that a discussion of FACTUAL information of ancient atrocities that have ceased hundreds of years ago is going to create discord between Hindus and Christians today? May I remind you that Christians have recently been attacked by Hindutva thugs in India and the Inquisition was not one of the excuses proclaimed by the Hindutvas for these attacks. Sapna Sahani wrote: I thought this list had intellectuals who could respectfully debate with one another. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:33:08 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com You are (as they say) in a class by yourself - even though, you should not be surprised at the support you will get from the saffron haters of Catholics in Goa and elsewhere. Mario responds: Sapna, I think you may be finding out that, at least on this topic, Goan Intellectual is a contradiction in terms:-)) Irritated, paranoid Christians is more like it:-)) Just kidding, JC, but you are hardly distinguishing yourself with the uncharacteristic and unsubstantiated comments like the one above, unless you know Sapna personally well enough to know she is in a class by herself. BTW, I consider you to be in a class by yourself, in a complimentary way, of course:-)) Secondly, I have no problem with Sapna's question, which some of you are blowing up out of all proportion given that the Inquisition in Goa was not a myth but a brutal reality and an unfortunate example of Christian fascism that Goan Catholics of today seem curiously ashamed of even though they had nothing to do with it and neither did any of the teachings in Christ-centered Christianity. Thirdly, saffron haters of Catholics??? I answered Sapna's question in a previous post in this thread in a supportive manner without being defensive and without wearing my saffron robes and red dot on my forehead:-)) In fact, I wrote as a practicing Catholic who is not afraid of the truth and can distinguish between the teachings of Christ and the atrocities that were committed in his name by Christian fanatics which had no resemblance to anything that Christ taught. Finally, we don't have to go back centuries to find inappropriate behavior by Christians, as we have seen in recent years. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:33:46 +0530 From: Jason Keith Fernandes jason.k.fernan...@gmail.com Let me reiterate my apology. Yes, the last line was out of line. No debate there. to further this discussion though, perhaps we should not be making statement based on something like the Rough Guide. Its exactly that! the Rough Guide for Christ's sake! :-D How does one say that the Goa Inquisition was one of the worst in the world? Mario observes: Jason, I commend you for calming down and apologizing because your initial reaction was unbecoming and way out of line. However, you are continuing to be unnecessarily defensive and trying to obfuscate the un-Christian horror of the Inquisition by taking picayune issue with the Rough Guide and quibbling about whether the Goa Inquisition was the worst in the world. The point is not where Sapna read about it or whether it was one of the worst in the world, because that is a relative opinion that cannot be validated. The Inquisition is a historical fact, and it was nasty by any rational standard, and notorious because it was done in the name of Christ, who would have been horrified by the intentions and practices that took place during the Inquisition. Jason Keith wrote: WHy is there silence? perhaps because we dont want to discuss the issue? because it results only in the entire debate getting skewed. And we dont need right wing Hindus to skew the debate. the best skewers of the debate are Nationlist Catholics, Zionists, and Orieintalist/ racist Europeans. Each for their own reasons of being more Indian, for adding larger intellectual foundations for the zionist project, and the Euros who can reaffirm racial distinctions by saying how wrong it was to try to make INdians, who ought to be Hindu (and non-'western') into Christian and 'western'. in other words they should remain 'authentic'. Mario observes: Another gratuitous boatload of red herrings. Does avoiding an issue get it unskewed? So far the only Hindu from any wing in this thread has been Dr. Barad with a perfectly rational and civil response to Ignatius' comments. We have also not heard from a single Zionist, Orientalist or racist European. The only Nationalist Catholic would be me, and I am an American and have no interest in being any more Indian than anyone else. I have only
[Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
*Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin* *Sat Jun 13 22:48:21 PDT 2009* Ignatius Fernandes writes: When Indira Gandhi was assassinated by a Sikhbody guard a lot of Sikhs men, women, and children were indiscriminatelyburned, hacked and murdered by Hindus. My response: Just to set the record straight. The ones who murdered theSikhs did not do so as Hindus. They did it as Congressmen. Joao observes:I suppose, since they were Congressman, they ceased to be Hindus! Ignatius Fernandes as writes: We should talk of recent events first beforewe tackle events in previous centuries. My response: We can tackle ALL events at the same time. One shouldrecognize that the inquisition in Goa happened many years before the twothat Ignatius has mentioned. If we were to follow his criteria fordiscussions, then one can always use a recent event to shut down discussionon a previous issue. Joao observes: The Inquisition happened centuries ago. No one who is alive today can be held personally responsible. There is a difference, my friend ... Best Regards, Dr U. G. Barad
[Goanet] Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin (Goa) Inquisition Believe me or not, I was born and brought up in Goa. In other words I spend 50 years in Goa plus 12 more years in and out Goa and UK. Like the word ‘Tsunami’ for me the word ‘Inquisition’ was also entirely new. And I only found out about it when I was in the UK. And where did I find out? On our very own ‘Goanet’ internet forum some years ago. In school as part of history we learnt about French revolution, America civil war, Boston tea party, Maria antonette or Luis the XIV. We learnt about Shivaji Maharaj, Timpu Sultan, the world war I and II, Partition of Bengal, Lord Curzon etc etc but I never ever remember reading or leaning about Goa’s Inquisition. When I saw some old framed wall pictures at Rachol Church (near Rai-Shiroda ferry), I asked my Dad about it and I was told it was all about ‘Cumcolim Martyrs’or ‘Kristavank piddapidda’. The pictures showing images of brutal killings. Perhaps, in Goa, we did not hear or learn about Inquisition because most Goan shools run by the Church. I am sure the things would have been different if the case was other way round. Non- Christian being the majority in Goa, they did try to bring it up, as a part of history, in the form of a VCD but it did not go well with the Christians and the same was withdrawn. It’s true, we being Goans, don’t know much about our tiny Goa’s history but we often learn it from others or outsiders. Talking about Bom Jesus Basilica, I was even told more than once that St. Francis Xavier himself ordered inquisition. I don’t know if that is true. Some could send me a pointer (privately) to any such articles on the net etc Saiba SFX, bhogos maka hanv chuklam zalear joego...@yahoo.co.uk for Goa NRI related info... http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/GOAN-NRI/ For Goan Video Clips http://youtube.com/joeukgoa In Goa, Dial 1 0 8 For Hospital, Police, Fire etc
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Dear Sapna, I think the Rough Guide took the rough information. People were burnt at the stake in England and Europe, but apparently this has been overlooked by all and sundry, especially by the Rough Guides. It is not known when burning was first used in Britain, but there is a recorded burning for heresy in 1222, when a deacon of the church was burnt at Oxford for embracing the Jewish faith so he could marry a Jew. In 1401, the king authorised a Statute of Heresy which gave the clergy power to arrest and try those suspected of heresy. The first to suffer under the new act was one William Sautre, a priest, who was executed at (Kings) Lynn in 1402. This statute was repealed in 1553, but burning was re-introduced by Henry VIII. His daughter, Mary Tudor (Bloody Mary), was also very keen on this method and 274 burnings of both sexes for heresy were recorded during her 5 year reign (reign of terror) in the mid 16th century. In most cases their only crime was following the Protestant faith. The normal place of execution in Londonbeing at West Smith Field (now called just Smithfield). An engraving of the period shows that these unfortunates were stood in empty tar barrels at the stake and then had faggots heaped round them. It was not the practice to strangle heretics before they were burnt so they died slow and horrible deaths - being literally burned alive. Burning was in use throughout Europe at this time and was particularly favoured by the Spanish Inquisition as it did not involve shedding of the victim's blood, which was disallowed under the prevailing Roman Catholic doctrine, and because it ensured that the condemned had no body to take into the next life (which was believed to be a very severe punishment in itself). It was also thought at that time that burning cleansed the soul which was considered important for those convicted of witchcraft and heresy. ... The last person to be burned as a witch in Scotlandwas Janet Horne at Dornoch in Ross shire in 1727. Janet had been accused of witching her daughter to make her hands and feet grow into horses hooves, so that she could ride her. The daughter had a deformed hand, due to being “shod by the Devil”! She was also tried but acquitted. She later had a child who exhibited the same kind of congenital hand deformity. A stone at the place of execution commemorates her death. The witchcraft Acts were repealed there in 1736. Go to http://www.witchesway.net/links/burningtimes/executed.htmlfor a listing of witch executions. It is claimed that some 200,000 people were burned for witchcraft in Europein 16th and 17th centuries. See http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/burning.html for the above quoted paragraphs. So I cannot see that the Inquisition in Goa was in any way any worse than in the rest of the world of the times. The above, BTW, does not talk of Inquisition in the Americas. You can do more reasearch about this topic if you wish, as it is rather abhorrent to me. Besides, another practice common in England of the times was to be hung, drawn and quartered - you may have seen the sanitized version in the movie Braveheart. To be fair, the Portuguese were the first in India to: 1. ban the then current practice of Sati (a practice worse than the Inquisition IMHO) 2. empower women allowing them equal rights of succession. 3. ban capital punishment (1867). India still carries on with capital punishment Gabriel. - Original Message From: Sapna Shahani sapnashah...@gmail.com To: Jason Keith Fernandes jason.k.fernan...@gmail.com Cc: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Saturday, 13 June, 2009 2:50:34 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin I was just struck when I learned that the Inquisition in Goa was possibly one of the worst in the world (according to the Rough Guide). Need a Holiday? Win a $10,000 Holiday of your choice. Enter now.http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJxN2x2ZmNpBF9zAzIwMjM2MTY2MTMEdG1fZG1lY2gDVGV4dCBMaW5rBHRtX2xuawNVMTEwMzk3NwR0bV9uZXQDWWFob28hBHRtX3BvcwN0YWdsaW5lBHRtX3BwdHkDYXVueg--/SIG=14600t3ni/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/creativeholidays/*http%3A//au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/%3Fp1=other%26p2=au%26p3=mailtagline
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Sapna, As a goan who has spent more time outside Goa, I personally feel that this historical quest of yours is an attempt to stir up events that happened a good 400 years ago or so. which will engender communal discord between the Hindu and Christian communities. Sapna Shahani wrote: As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curious about Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building but I find it odd that visitors don't know what cruelties once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica. Would love to hear the thoughts of people on this list... Best, Sapna.
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Sapna Shahani (SS) wrote. My responses interspersed SS [1]: I was just struck when I learned that the Inquisition in Goa was possibly one of the worst in the world (according to the Rough Guide). jc 1: You are coming to debate with us armed with 'information' from the Rough Guide? That is brilliant! -- SS [2]: I thought this list had intellectuals who could respectfully debate with one another. jc 2: Just that you may know, there ARE many intellectuals on this list. You are unlikely to know them as you 'do not know them well enough to know' any blind or bright spots, these intellectuals may or may not have. -- SS [3] I didnt think we knew each other well enough for you to know any other blind spots that I may have. jc 3: please see the answer above. ps: I thought that you would take on some more women-related intellectual issues e.g. Sati, Devadasi, Female Foetlcide and Infanticide, Dowry burning but I was wrong. Your encyclopedia appears to be the Rough Guide. You are (as they say) in a class by yourself - even though, you should not be surprised at the support you will get from the saffron haters of Catholics in Goa and elsewhere. jc
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Dear Sapna, Let me reiterate my apology. Yes, the last line was out of line. No debate there. to further this discussion though, perhaps we should not be making statement based on something like the Rough Guide. Its exactly that! the Rough Guide for Christ's sake! :-D How does one say that the Goa Inquisition was one of the worst in the world? What is the scale on which this is determined? (Once more I am not saying that the Inquisition was a tea-party, i am nevertheless challenging the discourse). I have yet to see serious scholarship on the Goa Inquisition, and the work by A. K. Priolkar does not count. Similarly the two accounts that we have, shold also be taken in their context, written in the context of Northern v. Souther European rivalry, Protestant Catholic rivalry etc etc. Once more, discourse is what I am trying to question and challenge. You raise an interesting point in the silence on the matter. WHy is there silence? perhaps because we dont want to discuss the issue? because it results only in the entire debate getting skewed. And we dont need right wing Hindus to skew the debate. the best skewers of the debate are Nationlist Catholics, Zionists, and Orieintalist/ racist Europeans. Each for their own reasons of being more Indian, for adding larger intellectual foundations for the zionist project, and the Euros who can reaffirm racial distinctions by saying how wrong it was to try to make INdians, who ought to be Hindu (and non-'western') into Christian and 'western'. in other words they should remain 'authentic'. sincerely, J On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Sapna Shahani sapnashah...@gmail.comwrote: Jason, It wasn't my intention at all to provoke. By the way, I was raised Catholic (I am Anglo-Indian). What gives me the impression that Inquisition information is not known to visitors from outside Goa are my interactions with people I have met over 20 years of living in Goa on and off. Please don't confuse me with right-wing Hindus whom I've been given to understand have used this history to their advantage. I have no affinity for those types, in fact, quite the opposite. I was just struck when I learned that the Inquisition in Goa was possibly one of the worst in the world (according to the Rough Guide). This was years after I had started visiting Goa and after numerous visits to Old Goa. So it made me wonder why I never heard about that before, and I simply wanted to hear perspectives on this subject from this list. I'm sorry if I touched some nerves, I didn't realize it was such a sensitive issue, and I thought this list had intellectuals who could respectfully debate with one another. I hope future posters would reply a little more gently, so as not to scare away first-time posters like myself who may be non-Goan, but have significant respect for the land, and are trying to contribute to the economy in a positive way. In particular Jason, I thought your comment that 'my lack of awareness about contemporary politics is just another one of my blind spots' was out of line. I didnt think we knew each other well enough for you to know any other blind spots that I may have. Best, Sapna. On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 9:31 AM, Jason Keith Fernandes jason.k.fernan...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Sapna, From the sounds of your email it sounds like you are provoking us. What gives you the impression that the cruelties that once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica are not known? How did you come to this information? Clearly it is not that difficult to ascertain as you make it out to be? If at all, there is more (mis)information about the Inquisition than there is information, so perhaps we would do well to investigate that. But I am curious, what exactly do you hope to achieve from broadcasting this information to the visitors to the site? Perhaps you know that the 'information' about the Inquisition, is very often used to place contemporary (and native) Catholics in an uncomfortable position. Is this the intent of your inquiry? If not, then perhaps the lack of awareness about contemporary politics is just another one of your blind spots. My apologies for the terseness of the message, the bite is not intended to offend, merely to make a point. sincerely, J -- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:43:19 +0530 From: Sapna Shahani sapnashah...@gmail.com Subject: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin To: goa...@goanet.org Message-ID: 8c1ee09c0906120913j92f1c80wab680693362d3...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curious about Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building but I find it odd that visitors don't know what
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
My own Sir-Swat ancestors arrived with Persian pullao, to charm afro-mahars into a land swap, fifteen hundred years ago. Cruelty was never in the picture: that Pashtun zaffran lamb worked wonders ! In Swatland, today, the picture is not so pretty for the indo-pak occupiers whose delusions take in Pashtu land from Peshawar to Azad Kashmir. eric --- On Sat, 6/13/09, Joe Lobo tw...@pathcom.com wrote: Sapna, As a goan who has spent more time outside Goa, I personally feel that this historical quest of yours is an attempt to stir up events that happened a good 400 years ago or so. which will engender communal discord between the Hindu and Christian communities. Sapna Shahani wrote: As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curious about Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building but I find it odd that visitors don't know what cruelties once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica. Would love to hear the thoughts of people on this list... Best, Sapna.
[Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Drae Sapna, Why go so far back in time Just a few questions I want to know from you and Goa-Netters. 1) During the Partition of India a million people (conservative Guess) were murdered by both factions i.e. Indians and Pakistanis Did India or Pakistan bring these murderers to justice when everything settled down? 2) When Indira Gandhi was assassinated by a Sikh body guard a lot of Sikhs men, women, and children were indiscriminately burned,hacked and murdered by Hindus Were these criminals ever brought to justice? We should talk of recent events first before we tackle events in previous centuries. Cheers Ignatius Fernandes. _ With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
[Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Dear Sapna, I missed being one of the early ones out of the gate on this one. Fasting for 10 days and am a bit weak. But you have received some worthy responses to a large degree--in that all have chosen to see you as quite a genuine person. . Take this opportunity to state the gory history of Goa. You appear to know something, so just go ahead and say it. Then maintain a dialog or dialogs. You have a right to live in Goa so get a grip and decide what you want to know further to facilitate wholeness. Is it a good life, is it entry into politics, to become an entrepreneur. All possible. Who are these outsiders, and how would it help them? Conquerors do things to those conquered within the purview of their beliefs. This does not mean it is correct. That is power being used brutally to subjugate. What matters is that the insiders as well the Hindus know the reasons that comprised the gory pasts and have graciously chosen to live differently from their religious as well as cultural kin in other places in India. But it cannot be condoned and we have not, and yet a lot of water have gone under the bridge. Life is full of hurts and rancour and trust me no matter what anyone may say, the majority of Christians are not living in the lap of luxury. We are getting eroded little by little in a myriad of ways. Hey people can't even allow us to be left as artifacts. Is that not hilarious? If you are talking about unaware foreigners--that is different, but who can help them (avidhya). Is it our duty to tell them about our past? Must we also tell them about the current political and other despicable scenarios in Goan politics? Let me give you an example, and then you can make your own analogies. My mother brought us up on the mandate, Sot tem sot. That translates as, Truth is truth (or at least it did decades ago); No matter what truth must be upheld; Uphold Truth under any circumstances. The impact was we grew up questioning ever untoward incident, and on top of that seeing irregularities in benign actions. The point is it is not yet clear is that when one seeks truth one must consider (and others do so) what is one going after, Basically we paid a price for it. An example: My brother refused to squeal on the Hindu kids (incidentally not Goan) who caused some mischief in the class, resulting in him kept out side by the Headmistress. He was given the option to name names and then come back in. He refused, in this case believing that it was not up to him to reveal the truth and spare his skin and his future. The future being that it got messed up, weakened his foundation and failed his SSC. But believing the he had acted truthfully, he proudly (or perhaps with an edge) walked into her office the next year when he passed. That's another strand of truth. This way of being is only now beginning to dissipate. Perhaps mother meant, Right is right, and on account of our weak Konknni at that point we got totally baked. But still I am happy for that. I saw this since the Goan past fits into the life of all Goans in an enviromental (lived) and ecumenical sense. Besides this, out there, are also very aware foreigners. They know how to engage, interact, live and play with people. Do you feel they will be moved if they hear the brutal and temperamental histories in such as way that shifts their interest in a place. In they know the original precise reasons would that not be embarrassing. Unless the narrator lives the axiom, Sot tem sot. Not likely. The visitors come for experiences, to satiate their interests, strengths and weaknesses, seeking different climes and worlds to indulge in laissez-faire meanderings, to eat and drink relatively cheaply, to visit our museums, to enjoy architecture--Hindu, Muslim, Christian, the Buddhist caves, the Vetals and other older forms of animism, pick up ideas and ways of life that we believe in or have discarded--but which they may be used someplace else, to pick up seeds, to bed women and men and children, to claim newer fetishes, the list goes on. I have an ongoing series of works based on my reflections, :We do not come by our thoughts; they come to us. Where do they comes from, why do they come, how do they generate within the core of our being. I hope you get further worthy responses whether or not it is for scholarship. But what counts is when one first states distinctly so others may follow the trend of ones thought, in that, how is it that that particular curiosity: arose in the first place. I am not interested in debating anyone on this, but Sapna, do feel free to communicate directly with me if need be. Partly becuase it is also true that Hindus (even cultural ones, as in cultural Christians) rarely respond to such queries. And lastly does anyone believe that many of us even care what the survey says about Bom Jesu or any other edifice? Perhaps those playing their trades where they benefit from such statuses bestowed as a unique selling point. Why? Because, its better to light a
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
2009/6/12 Sapna Shahani sapnashah...@gmail.com As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curious about Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building but I find it odd that visitors don't know what cruelties once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica. Would love to hear the thoughts of people on this list... Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:28:49 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com You apear to be a genuine person. So I say to you: If today is the day to wash clothes, and the washing machines are not being used, Let us wash ALL the dirty laundry - in public. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:35:00 +0900 From: Joao Barros-Pereira joaobarrospere...@gmail.com A sign of a civilized and mature people, in my view, is to let bygones be bygones. We have a recorded history of the Inquisition but it does not mean it has to have a place of pride on tourism billboards. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 02:37:21 + (GMT) From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk First off all your stay in Goa is illegal. Second the In quistion issue has been trashed on this forum. In fact could you tell us about Hatti Mere SATI. Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:31:33 +0530 From: Jason Keith Fernandes jason.k.fernan...@gmail.com If at all, there is more (mis)information about the Inquisition than there is information, so perhaps we would do well to investigate that. But I am curious, what exactly do you hope to achieve from broadcasting this information to the visitors to the site? Perhaps you know that the 'information' about the Inquisition, is very often used to place contemporary (and native) Catholics in an uncomfortable position. Is this the intent of your inquiry? If not, then perhaps the lack of awareness about contemporary politics is just another one of your blind spots. My apologies for the terseness of the message, the bite is not intended to offend, merely to make a point. Mario responds: Whoa! What the heck happened here? As the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace I am shocked at the responses so far to a simple question by a curious non-Goan Hindu lady about a historical FACT. It's like she poked a hornet's nest with a stick and a bunch of angry Goan Christians flew out to defend the faith and the Portuguese who perpetrated the Inquisition with considerable brutality in India. JC, along with sati, caste discrimination, female infanticide and bride burnings, the Inquisition is a FACT, so why try to obfuscate it by referring to those other gory facts of Indian history, and the ongoing female infacticide and bride burnings, without answering the question dispassionately? Joao, bygones are bygones by definition, but history requires an honest accounting of what happened so that we learn from the good and avoid repeating the bad. Bernardo, your comment that her stay in Goa was illegal is pure poppycock. Jason Keith, you were rude in addition to terse when you questioned Sapna's intentions and/or her blind spot both of which you have no way of knowing. The only point you made is that you are unnecessarily touchy and defensive about a FACT of Portuguese-Indian history that you had nothing to do with. Since I don't know Sapna, I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt. So, let's get back to her question. Sapna asked, How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? She says she finds it odd that visitors don't know the cruelties that once took place in the vicinity of Bom Gesu. Frankly, Sapna, you may have made an assumption that may not hold water. Since there are all kinds of outsiders and tourists who visit Old Goa, you have no way of knowing what all these outsiders and tourists know or not know. I know many Americans who are interested in history who are quite familiar with the entire dark period of Christian fascism, which included the Crusades and the Inquisition, when Christianity was essentially derailed by its own fanatics, paradoxically in the name of Christ. After all, YOU seem to know, and many of the visitors may know as well. However, if you are saying that there are no museums or exhibits of atrocities that took place during the Inquisition you are correct, there are none that I know of. Perhaps there should be. I would have no problem as long as it was factual, just as I have no problem with the possibility that my Hindu ancestors may have been forced to convert by Portuguese zealots, and I am perfectly happy with what the founder of my Christian faith taught, even though I find much to decry about some of the policies and practices of some of my fellow Christians. As with any dark event or period in a country's history that has since been stamped out hundreds of years ago, most countries try to focus on the good rather than
[Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curious about Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building but I find it odd that visitors don't know what cruelties once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica. Would love to hear the thoughts of people on this list... Best, Sapna.
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Dear Sapna, You make a very good point. I agree with you absolutely. In fact, I believe that very few people know about the Gory past of our entire subcontinent. I suggest that we all should contribute to this exercise. Some of our contributions may include: a: The Most Unholy Inquisition - wsr to the targeting of the Jews b: The atrocities of Sati. As a woman, I suggest you research and write about this crime which killed (God alone knows how many) millions of mothers, grandmothers, daughters, sisters and cousins; many of these burnt-alive widows .were still young children when married to these old chaps. c: The Caste system and the systematic (life and generation to generation) enslavement of the Sudras and lower castes. d: The brutal killing of female foetuses e: Dowry burnings (I believe my learned friend Valmiki Faleiro is writing about How the Aryans came and swiped land from the natives of the subcontinent). Like you Sapna, I too believe that visitors to India must know the truth, the ENTIRE TRUTH and nothing but the Truth about the place and people we often describe as 'peace-loving and peaceful'. BTW: as one who believes that he is a Harijan, I have done my bit by writing about the horribly discriminating Apartheid Caste System of India which, quite ironically, surprised the firangi Portuguese who by the way abolished (by decree) the Sati burnings in Goa and (what is now) Mumbai. There is another female oriented topic which might interest you, and that is the devadasi system of enslavement. In closing, please do not take the above to be my routine response to the the saffron haters of the Catholic church - who pose these topics on different discussion lists AND get very offended when Sati, Caste and devadasi topics are raised. I do not believe that you are one of them. You apear to be a genuine person. So I say to you: If today is the day to wash clothes, and the washing machines are not being used, Let us wash ALL the dirty laundry - in public. good wishes jc 2009/6/12 Sapna Shahani sapnashah...@gmail.com As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curious about Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building but I find it odd that visitors don't know what cruelties once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica. Would love to hear the thoughts of people on this list...
[Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
*Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin* *Fri Jun 12 09:13:19 PDT 2009* As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curiousabout Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? Joao writes: A sign of a civilized and mature people, in my view, is to let bygones be bygones. We have a recorded history of the Inquisition but it does not mean it has to have a place of pride on tourism billboards. People of various communities have, at one time or the other, been cruel to other weaker communities, as well as to people living within their own community. What is important is not to accuse and hold responsible the people who are alive today for crimes committed a long time ago. It will only open a can of worms, and make today a hell while we're fighting over the past! Life, after all, is to be lived in the present A wise man once said, an eye for and eye makes the whole world blind. Most of us have only one eye, let's not lose the other, too. The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building butI find it odd that visitors don't know what cruelties once took place in thevicinity of the Basilica. Would love to hear the thoughts of people on this list...Best,Sapna.
Re: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin
Dear Sapna, From the sounds of your email it sounds like you are provoking us. What gives you the impression that the cruelties that once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica are not known? How did you come to this information? Clearly it is not that difficult to ascertain as you make it out to be? If at all, there is more (mis)information about the Inquisition than there is information, so perhaps we would do well to investigate that. But I am curious, what exactly do you hope to achieve from broadcasting this information to the visitors to the site? Perhaps you know that the 'information' about the Inquisition, is very often used to place contemporary (and native) Catholics in an uncomfortable position. Is this the intent of your inquiry? If not, then perhaps the lack of awareness about contemporary politics is just another one of your blind spots. My apologies for the terseness of the message, the bite is not intended to offend, merely to make a point. sincerely, J -- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:43:19 +0530 From: Sapna Shahani sapnashah...@gmail.com Subject: [Goanet] Comment about Bom Jesus Basilica among 7 wonders of Portuguese origin To: goa...@goanet.org Message-ID: 8c1ee09c0906120913j92f1c80wab680693362d3...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 As a non-Goan who's lived here on and off for 20 years, I'm very curious about Goa's history with the Inquisition. How is it that the gory history of Goa's past remains virtually unknown by outsiders or tourists? The Basilica of Bom Jesus is a beautiful building but I find it odd that visitors don't know what cruelties once took place in the vicinity of the Basilica. Would love to hear the thoughts of people on this list... Best, Sapna. -- - Read my thoughts at www.dervishnotes.blogspot.com For a successful revolution it is not enough that there is discontent. What is required is a profound and thorough conviction of the justice, necessity and importance of political and social rights. (B R Ambedkar)
