Re: [Goanet] Goa's educational system/to Sunith
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Sunith Velho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I did not mention the word Gulfie nor Shippie any > where in my post. These > were entirely fabricated from the huge chip Selma > carries on her shoulder. I > singled out youth who choose to do manual labour via > those avenues instead > of studying hard at school. Dear Sunith, First, I usually carry a Fendi fake over my shoulder and I assure you a chip isn't in it. Just to be absolutely clear, this is what you wrote, which I have cut and pasted hereunder: --- Sunith wrote: The problem with Goan education is that most students(especially Catholics from the Coastal belts) are lacking in motivation. Why bother with working hard in school when a job lifting crates in the Gulf, Paris or London awaits you. Exchange rates ensure that you can then do hard manual labour for the next fifteen years, return to your village, buy a gold chain/bracelet and open an STD booth/General store/Tourist taxi and bring up a your children with similar aims. Here's the problem. That is how labour operates. In economics we call it the cost of lost opportunity, which labour is very good at calculating. As Eugene pointed out, a woman working in a five-star restaurant is willing to consider a maids position in the Gulf. I myself have known people who after doing their hotel management, have had to go onboard ships to make ends meet. So labour will bid for the highest offer. That is capitalism, pure and simple. It is not that those crate-carrying men and women in the Gulf have no aspirations for themselves or their kids. Infact their hearts are full of aspiration. It is that their reality falls short of delivering those aspirations. I agree with you that a change in mindset is necessary but it will only come when the belly is full, and Goans can find jobs within Goa that offer comparative/competitive pay. We cannot put the cart before the horse by blaming attitudes for our dismal education system. That will change when our exchequer has the kind of money and polity has the willpower it takes to sustain a top-notch system. This is my last post on this subject. Selma Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] Goa's educational system
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Bosco and Selma, I admit that my approach to this issue has been curt and migh have cause offence to some people. Santosh provided a much more balanced view. The point is essentially the same, social factors are affecting Goan education much more than the education system itself. Selma, your argument is purely emotional and unfortunately ignores what I initially highlighted in response to Albert and Gllenda, that children from the coastal Catholic belts are out performed at school by those from the hinterland despite the fact that they are economically better off and have acess to good schools. You do not provide an explanation for this nor have you provided a reason for my observation that people from other regions of Goa and India are making much more money from tourism in Goa than the locals from the coast. I would venture to say that this group of people is the most socially immobile(the way in which someone's adult outcomes are related to their circumstances as a child) or stagnant group currently resident in Goa. While Gllenda and Albert chose to blame church run schools for this, I blamed the parents and kids themselves. I did not mention the word Gulfie nor Shippie any where in my post. These were entirely fabricated from the huge chip Selma carries on her shoulder. I singled out youth who choose to do manual labour via those avenues instead of studying hard at school. There are many people who use these avenues as a genuine career paths like the Goan Chefs on Cruise Liners or Officers and Engineers on Merchant vessels. They definitely do not fall into the same category, just as Goan professionals in France cannot be grouped with the thousands of Goans there lifting crates. Regards Sunith >>Gilbert has provided an appropriate quote vis-a-vis >>inspiration/perspiration. Santosh has provided stats and explanations. >>Helga has provided some insights too. Sunith has been curt. And yes Selma, the underprivileged don't get an easy ride anywhere. And forever in human history there will always be an underpriviledged class - whether you live in Goa or Alabama.
[Goanet] Goa's Educational system/reply to Selma
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Selma, Thanks for your kind response. However you skirted the questions by denying the problem. (Good try.:=)) This is even after I presented the quotes of an expert in the field, and you did the same with the UNICEF study. Goans on Goanet seem to demand "hard data" and "references". Yet when they get it and it is not what they like, they just "ignore it" or call it "facile" or dismiss it as "weak". Do you not love that? You then switch the arguments form undergrad education (your original post) to postgrad education and success (current post), even skipping graduate education. Good leap. Amchem tempar, we called it "hop ... skip ... and ... a jump." Here are my thoughts on your recent post. Yes America is great! Mario has done a good job on your psyche.:=)). On your recent visit to Goa, looks like you definitely missed home (America). Its success that you have outlined is provided by 1% of its citizens - many of whom are immigrants and thus not products of American undergraduate education. The long list of the "necessary educational support programs" that you initially outlined in your post are very expensive. And in practice the large smorgasbord / buffet of activities serves to distract students and parents. So instead of focusing on instruction, we have moved to this nebulous "all round" development; that its proponents (especially philosophers and liberal artists) try to promote. And to keep up with the simile, the students becomes fat instead of being lean and healthy. How about high school education concentrating on the basic "R"s? And How about eliminating the "me-smart" attitude that American and Goan societies promote? Twice a year, I get invited to our public school to talk to high school students about careers in the medical field. My human eye picks up three groups of students, that very interestingly cluster together. They are Whites, Blacks, and Orientals (US born). We have a big Vietnamese, Cambodian, Burmese immigrant population. As a general rule the only students really excited about what I talk (and their own careers) are the Orientals. As recent immigrants they are small-made and compared to the other groups could be termed malnourished and dress conservatively. And they know, they do not have a "leg-up". The "me-smart" students have their first question, "How much does this job pay?" Kind Regards, GL Carvalho wrote: You've raised a valid point. Let me start by stating another report that made headlines recently. According to an UNICEF report, the US ranked last in child well-being when compared with 22 other industrialised countries. Now, the point I'm trying to make is that such comparisons are facile. They are based on subjective parameters and very often fail to take into account the diversity of the American population and that infact the US is almost an entire continent which can not rightfully be compared with tiny nations in Western Europe. So let's use some everyday commonsense parameters to judge the validity of the US education system. Does it manage to produce a skill set to meet its workplace demands? Has it been in the forefront of technology and innovation in the 21st century? Does it produce more than its fair share of scientists, movie producers, composers, writers, influential thinkers and entrepreneurs? Does it take home the most gold at the Olympics? Does it attract thousands of foreign students every year who bet their careers on a US education? Would you be happy educating your own children in the US? The answer to all those questions is a resounding YES. I for one am not shedding any premature tears for the demise of the US American education system. It's as robust as ever. --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How come the American education system is so abysmal > in spite of the highest per capita student > expenditure?
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Educational system/reply to Gilbert
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Besselma, You´ve missed the Nobels. US-diminated since inception. AT From: Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa's Educational system/reply to Gilbert Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:58:40 -0800 (PST) --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How come the American education system is so abysmal > in spite of the highest per capita student > expenditure? --- Dear Gilbert, You've raised a valid point. Let me start by stating another report that made headlines recently. According to an UNICEF report, the US ranked last in child well-being when compared with 22 other industrialised countries. Now, the point I'm trying to make is that such comparisons are facile. They are based on subjective parameters and very often fail to take into account the diversity of the American population and that infact the US is almost an entire continent which can not rightfully be compared with tiny nations in Western Europe. So let's use some everyday commonsense parameters to judge the validity of the US education system. Does it manage to produce a skill set to meet its workplace demands? Has it been in the forefront of technology and innovation in the 21st century? Does it produce more than its fair share of scientists, movie producers, composers, writers, influential thinkers and entrepreneurs? Does it take home the most gold at the Olympics? Does it attract thousands of foreign students every year who bet their careers on a US education? Would you be happy educating your own children in the US? The answer to all those questions is a resounding YES. I for one am not shedding any premature tears for the demise of the US American education system. It's as robust as ever. Selma Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com _ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=10035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Educational system/reply to Gilbert
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How come the American education system is so abysmal > in spite of the highest per capita student > expenditure? --- Dear Gilbert, You've raised a valid point. Let me start by stating another report that made headlines recently. According to an UNICEF report, the US ranked last in child well-being when compared with 22 other industrialised countries. Now, the point I'm trying to make is that such comparisons are facile. They are based on subjective parameters and very often fail to take into account the diversity of the American population and that infact the US is almost an entire continent which can not rightfully be compared with tiny nations in Western Europe. So let's use some everyday commonsense parameters to judge the validity of the US education system. Does it manage to produce a skill set to meet its workplace demands? Has it been in the forefront of technology and innovation in the 21st century? Does it produce more than its fair share of scientists, movie producers, composers, writers, influential thinkers and entrepreneurs? Does it take home the most gold at the Olympics? Does it attract thousands of foreign students every year who bet their careers on a US education? Would you be happy educating your own children in the US? The answer to all those questions is a resounding YES. I for one am not shedding any premature tears for the demise of the US American education system. It's as robust as ever. Selma Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
[Goanet] Goa's Educational system
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Selma, Welcome back to USA. In regard to your post below, too much of a good thing may not be the best. I would appreciate if you and other authorities on the education can explain: How come the American education system is so abysmal in spite of the highest per capita student expenditure? Why are those measurable data poor compared to the education systems of other countries, including third world countries, which spend only a fraction in educating their children? If you are seeking the answers to these questions, you may want to read the writings of the late Milton Friedman, Nobel laureate and Professor Emeritus in Economics and a champion of free markets. One of Milton Friedman's cure for the poor public school system in the USA is "student choice". And the Catholic schools are a great alternative, which are significantly under-funded compared to the public system. The following statements were recently made at the US governor's meeting. "Students in many other industrial countries are better educated than American students. By the end of eighth grade students elsewhere are two years ahead of American students," said William H. Schmidt, a Michigan State University professor who studies education. Some may wonder what is the similarity of American students and Goan students? I would submit to you that both (especially the Goan Catholics), with the influence of their parents, have a "me first" attitude and outlook to life. Kind Regards, GL - Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A good education system exposes the mind to ideas, challenges limitations, taps into creativity and makes possible the impossible. It is not adequate that financial aid is made possible. It is more important to have the type of facilities in terms of libraries, first class teachers at every level, books, research labs, proper class size (the average size in Goa by the way is 60 per class. Please compare this with an American 15-20 per class), sport facilities, music, lack of environmental stressors (one school in Margao overlooks a garbage dump, many don't have chairs or tables in the villages), availability to information such as the internet (even though the computer scheme makes computers available, it doesn't supply the software needed to make it viable). These are just a few of the things an education system should encompass and when made available to everyone, is successful in leveling the playing field between the rich and the poor.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Educational system
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Selma, Are you serious? Reena > Selma writes: > It is those hapless fellows that make their way to the Gulf or work > onboard > ships. > Instead, they should stay in Goa serving cocktails andmocktails to lager > louts, so that their children will > be inspired er motivated to do better in school.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Educational system
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Selma and Sunith, This ricochet of email is is not serving the discussion on Goa's educational system. If you pick up isolated incidences or specific characters we will get nowhere and we be arguing until we are blue in the face. Yes there are many young men in the coastal villages of Goa who hang around at the tinto waiting to get overseas or hang around at the shacks while the non Goan boys do all the work. In the meantime there are many good jobs in 5 star hotels that could have been ours if our young men had the education especially as we have many hotel management colleges whose graduates are accepted by hotels in the UK etc. So has our education system failed them? Probably. Because they prefer arduous short term stints in the Gulf/UK and then the return to bleak futures mostly saturated with alcohol. But I think this is mostly in families that have not grasped that education can be a long term investment mainly because they have not had the luxury of one. And no one has told them it can be so. It seems like our leaders, priests and the local intelligentsia us included have failed to impart the formula that has worked for us. And Selma, I don't know why you would even think that you and your family were lumped with them. Did you not tell us that your parents were an educated couple who worked hard overseas and gave you opportunities and privileges that you and your sibling now enjoy? Just like many of us 'privileged sons and daughters of Goa'? Education can level the playing field only if we allow it to and only if we are aware that it can be so. Not all Westerners have figured that our either. Our town of Boothbay Harbor has no immigrants and a very large population of pretty comfortable lobster fishermen thanks to tax benefits and subsidies. Almost all of our house taxes (and with monstrous waterfront properties it all adds up) go to the school which at least to me from Marina English High School, Verna is an excellent facility with very small classes, sports and extracurricular activities. Truly the kids are pampered. But who graduates from high school (Std XII) and goes on to a good college? Only the kids of scientists and non Mainers. The lobstermen's kids 'gradate' (no one fails!) with poor scores, are barely able to read/write but have a job with their dad and the permissions to fish which nowadays are worth a lot. Unfortunately, the lobster populations are expected to collapse soon. In the urban areas its no different - the US government has pumped millions of the tax payer's dollars into programs that have shown very little return. Kids from poor families are still not able to read and write and are not equipped for any job barring waiting tables and with the current trend of jobs going overseas its a big problem. However we have 'Teach for America' that has worked and some other programs that I think could work for Goa. We should talk about those! Also please refer to my previous email where I talk about young college graduates who could contribute to outreach with the exceptional projects that they undertake. Helga > Let me say however there is a big disconnect between > what the privileged sons and daughters of Goa can reap > as reward and what the masses can look forward to. A > good education system levels the playing field. It > makes available not just opportunity but also > aspiration, motivation and the inclination to climb > higher and reach further.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Educational system
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Sunith Velho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Selma, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why > the Goans from the > coast(predominantly Catholics) are reaping the least > benefit of Goa's > tourism boom or the Indian economic boom. If you > can't think beyond being a > waiter or tourist taxi driver then there is no > point complaining that > others now own all the restaurants, hotels, travel > agenicies and shops. It > is equally pointless to blame the education system > when you can't find a job > with a pass class non-professional degree. - Dear Sunith, It's 12am in the US, where I currently reside. Earlier this evening I spoke to my biologist brother who also resides in the US, and later this morning I'll speak to my brother, the doctor, who is currently in Goa. All three of us are children of one of those "Gulfies", you so derisively refer to. So, as to your first contention that all Gulfies carry crates in the Gulf, let me not dignify that with a response. As to your second contention that children of all Gulfies grow up to carry crates in the Gulf and have no other aspirations than to be taxi-drivers or open up STD booths, let me also not dignify that with a response. Let me say however there is a big disconnect between what the privileged sons and daughters of Goa can reap as reward and what the masses can look forward to. A good education system levels the playing field. It makes available not just opportunity but also aspiration, motivation and the inclination to climb higher and reach further. A good education system exposes the mind to ideas, challenges limitations, taps into creativity and makes possible the impossible. It is not adequate that financial aid is made possible. It is more important to have the type of facilities in terms of libraries, first class teachers at every level, books, research labs, proper class size (the average size in Goa by the way is 60 per class. Please compare this with an American 15-20 per class), sport facilities, music, lack of environmental stressors (one school in Margao overlooks a garbage dump, many don't have chairs or tables in the villages), availability to information such as the internet (even though the computer scheme makes computers available, it doesn't supply the software needed to make it viable). These are just a few of the things an education system should encompass and when made available to everyone, is successful in leveling the playing field between the rich and the poor. Please don't try to defend the indefensible. You've been the beneficiary of good fortune. I hope you use your good fortune to realise the misfortune of others. selma Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Educational system
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Selma, Your suggestion(sarcastic) that Goan youth should "should stay in Goa serving cocktails and mocktails to lager louts" is precisely the low aiming blinkered mentality that ails most Goans(especially the coastal Catholic community).Goa has four engineering colleges, a medical college, two law colleges and a management insitute. Yet you can't seem to see a Goan youth in any other role other than serving lager, in Goa or abroad. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why the Goans from the coast(predominantly Catholics) are reaping the least benefit of Goa's tourism boom or the Indian economic boom. If you can't think beyond being a waiter or tourist taxi driver then there is no point complaining that others now own all the restaurants, hotels, travel agenicies and shops. It is equally pointless to blame the education system when you can't find a job with a pass class non-professional degree. Open your eyes to the opportunities available to most motivated young Goans today, tourism included. Sunith Selma writes: It is those hapless fellows that make their way to the Gulf or work onboard ships. Instead, they should stay in Goa serving cocktails andmocktails to lager louts, so that their children will be inspired er motivated to do better in school.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's educational system
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Sunith Velho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The problem with Goan education is that most > students(especially Catholics > from the Coastal belts) are lacking in motivation. > Why bother with working > hard in school when a job lifting crates in the > Gulf, Paris or London awaits > you. - Will someone say the magic word "thank you", for we have at long last discovered what ails the Goa education system. It is those hapless fellows that make their way to the Gulf or work onboard ships. Instead, they should stay in Goa serving cocktails and mocktails to lager louts, so that their children will be inspired er motivated to do better in school. What next, "Gulfies" and "shippies" held accountable for RP2011, malaria and dengue fever? selma Never Miss an Email Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail
Re: [Goanet] Goa's educational system
http://www.GOANET.org This month's Goanet operations sponsored by Mrs. Daisy Faleiro If you would like to sponsor Goanet's operations contact: Herman Carneiro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gllenda, The Goan Government's loan(IEFL) is not only interest free but has a repayment period of upto seven years. The best part is that you only start paying back once you have secured a job or one year after completion of your course(whichever is earlier). No collateral is required, just an undertaking from the parents that they will pay off the loan incase the student defaults. THIS IS FOR EVERYONE!! The most popular(and expensive) course for higher studies in India is the MBA and it is of a very high standard in many colleges. It costs in the region of Rs. 3.5-5.0 lakhs in a top 20 college. The average salary for an MBA from the Goa Institute of Management(where a Goan domicile gets an extra 10 points for the admission process) this year was about Rs. 7 lakhs per annum with a placement rate of over 90 %. Encourage your youngsters to aim for the stars. If you aim for the rooftops you know where you are going to land. The problem with Goan education is that most students(especially Catholics from the Coastal belts) are lacking in motivation. Why bother with working hard in school when a job lifting crates in the Gulf, Paris or London awaits you. Exchange rates ensure that you can then do hard manual labour for the next fifteen years, return to your village, buy a gold chain/bracelet and open an STD booth/General store/Tourist taxi and bring up a your children with similar aims. The best part is then you get to complain about bhailes taking jobs in Goa forgetting that your husband himself was a 'vhoilo' in the Gulf. You use an internet connection provided by bhailes. Your cell phone company/computer manufacturer/cruise ship or merchant navy company/food products/drinks are all owned by bhailes. GET OVER IT!! Which school or higher secondary institution do yours and Albert's children go to. I'm sure if I'll be able to find numerous alumni from those same institutions who have gone on to do very well for themselves, especially if they are run by a Church or Sanvsthan. Are you up to the challenge?? Sunith Gllenda writes: >>All cannot take loans. All cannot >>go to america or australia for further studies. All cannot afford.
