[Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples.......
Humor is a poor substitute to historical facts and science. But what to do when that's all one has? Humor is a good remedy to use, when truth really exposes the nakedness. Regards, GL George Pinto The way forward for Goa is for engineers to administer medicine, for accountants to grow crops, for farmers to write software code. Goa will progress. > --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writing to Marlon wrote: > > In your last post you claimed some historical facts. You did so with much > > confidence (to prove me wrong!) So, I can only blame the authors of > > the books and web pages that you read ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples
Hi Marlon, Thanks for your post. Are you suggesting your memory is failing? Thanks for admitting, "the inquisition took place a couple of decades after the Portuguese took over the coastal regions." From a 100+ years, it (temple destruction in Bardez and Salcette) becomes less than a couple of decades! The rest of your post is the usual spin. I gave you the opportunity to place many events and dates both on the military actions and the church buildings in Goa. Yet, you and Vivek seek to discuss history with no dates. Perhaps your history books on Goa haven taken your leave. You don’t know what military events took place around 1565 and in 1570? Let me give you a hint. They were textbook examples of military action followed by a military land-grab. I am not a military man; pun aum ek supurlo Goenkar murree! who got my interest in history at Loyola High School, Margao. Please take your time to give us some answers and the dates on your claims. (I will respond to the Stupas) Or, be an officer and a gentleman and just say, "I don't have any dates!" Kind Regards, GL PS: Vivek: Thanks for responding that YOU don’t have any factual / first hand information on the works of SFX. Marlon has responded about your reasons. I may just add that, there are written books on human society living 60,000 years ago. Yet, you have a problem finding information on Goa about 500 years ago. Good going mate.:=)) Marlon Menezes The date quoted by me regarding the Inqusition was made from memory. I stated there was a 100 year gap between the original Portuguese conquest of Ilhas versus your statement below of it being 50 years. What is clear is that your own dates verify my statements and contradict your claims that the temples were destroyed as part of general military action that was not connected with religion. Your statements below clearly show that the inquisition took place a couple of decades after the Portuguese took over the coastal regions. --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Re: The destruction of Hindu Temples to build Churches > This post should be called: Revision class on Goa's history! > In your last post you claimed some historical facts. > You did so with much confidence (to prove me > wrong!). Obviously as a smart individual, you would > not be making a fool of yourself. So, I can only > blame the authors of the books and web pages that > you read (as obviously you, like me, were not there > in the 16th century). > > Yet the more you and others write THE FACTS, the > Albuquerque achieves his Goa victory on November 25, 1510. > The Portuguese acquire Bardez and Salcette in 1543. > The inquisition was introduced to Goa in 1560. > Now please read what you have written below in your own handwriting. > Then compare your dates to the remainder of the history posted after your > post. > Kind Regards, GL ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples
On Sat Jul 1 08:58:57 PDT 2006 Mario Goveia said: > You should have figured out by now that the cogent > arguments on this topic are being ably made by Gilbert > Lawrence, for whom Goan history is more than just a > hobby. I have nothing to add to that. On Wed Jun 21 11:06:03 PDT 2006 Jose Colaco said: > If ONLY we had realised that Men of ALL religions have destroyed in > the name of THEIR God. RESPONSE: For two very vocal Goanetters, your messages on this thread are muted. With Mario directing all traffic to Gilbert who has valiantly in vain tried to defend his point of view, Jose has tried to mislead us with a critique of all religions and about biased historians. The bottom line is were Hindu temples destroyed to build churches? A simple yes or no would have sufficed to take a stand. Instead what we see is a copout! The optics just don't look right when we are unable to accept our own history and then have the audacity to make unflattering comments about Sati, etc. Panning the Crusades and the Inquisition just does not cut it. We are all shaped by our history. And what is this insinuation about biased historians ? Are we next going to make insinuations against scientists and archaelogists (and timidly call them biased) who are shredding the myths about Catholicism one by one. Are we subsequently going to make similar inferences to other professionals - sociologists, doctors, et al and use them to lean on when we can't face the facts? Are we going to continue to wear our religion on our sleeves and lead a literal life instead of exploring our spiritual well-being and our place in the cosmos and society ? - Bosco T-dot! ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples
Hi Bosco, Thanks for bringing to our attention the need for all of us to know our history. In 2006, there is no excuse for Khoro Niz Goenkars in Goa and those recently immigrated, not to know Goan history (with its specific facts and dates). This is especially when we engage ourselves in a review of the subject. We expect / hope our next generation of Diaspora Goans to know our Goan history? Yet we will not know our history and the facts, if when presented, we continue to treat it (knowledge) as a debating and popularity contest. And then pick and chose what we want to believe and accept. As you suggest in your post, often Goans can be our own worst enemies. I hope we can see a change in our Goan Forum web sites. So as you seem to want, here is a recap. My apologies for some repetitions. Hindu temples in Goa were destroyed by the Colonial Portuguese and prior to them by the Deccan Sultanates as part of a universally accepted fall-out of war. The natives were displaced, and their land taken as part of a land-grab to settle the waves of new soldiers, government officers, and their families. Velha Goa in Tiswadi (Ilhas) was the new capital for the colony. This was planned and built in the sixteenth century by the Portuguese. Their churches, basilicas and monasteries were built in this new city, some of which exists till today. Most of these churches have decayed and are destroyed by the natural elements - a common feature of Goa's climate. In the talukas of Bardez and Salcette, the Hindu temples were destroyed by the Colonial Government decree and military actions in the mid-sixteenth century as part of a land grab policy to settle new arrivals from Portugal and the mesticios. Catholic churches in the villages of these talukas were built as the Catholic population grew in these regions in the 17th and 18th century. So the two events in your single statement below are "sequential and concomitant events" but not a "cause and effect" as some have suggested (without any facts or evidence). That perhaps may be the cause for the confusion. And we Goans are good at confusaum. The "Stupa theory" which is a "church built on top of a stupa" had no foundation as the Stupa (Buddhist) period (Maurya Empire) was 321-184 BCE, while the Portuguese era started in 1510 AD. We see these concomitant events of churches and temples in reverse occurring now in Canada, USA and UK. Here Christian churches are structurally deterioration / decaying while temples are being built, contemporaneously, with no relation to each other. Kind Regards, GL PS: The land settlements for soldiers that fought in wars, even occurred in USA and Canada. In both countries it's called homesteading. In the USA, each Revolutionary War soldier received 100 acres. By the time of the Civil War, it became 160 acres (western semi-dry land). In both USA and Canada, the land-grab occurred from the natives (American-Indians). By "tying" the soldiers to the land, the government did not have to keep and pay for a standing army. Yet, the government could call on these men / reserves to fight. And they fought to protect their lives, their own home, family and land. Bosco D'Mello wrote: For two very vocal Goanetters, your messages on this thread are muted. With Mario directing all traffic to Gilbert who has valiantly in vain tried to defend his point of view, Jose has tried to mislead us with a critique of all religions and about biased historians. The bottom line is were Hindu temples destroyed to build churches? A simple yes or no would have sufficed to take a stand. Instead what we see is a copout! The optics just don't look right when we are unable to accept our own history ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples.......
I would wager that intolerance and bigotry are an even poorer substitute for the scientific process and the quest for truth. I find it surprising that an individual who chooses to make himself the mouthpiece of the church now claims to be pro science and pro research! Since when did the scientific method involve coverups and the blind following of dictats from the church? Marlon --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Humor is a poor substitute to historical facts and > science. > But what to do when that's all one has? > Humor is a good remedy to use, when truth really > exposes the nakedness. > Regards, GL > > George Pinto > The way forward for Goa is for engineers to > administer medicine, for accountants to grow crops, > for farmers to write software code. Goa > will progress. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples/In defense ofMarlon
--- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Auri > I do not know Marlon but have a small glimpse of his > thinking from Goanet posts. Nevertheless, I went > hard on Mario for depicting him as Moron > (Menezies). Sadly, Mario has this rotten habit of > getting abusive to one and all and probably himself > too! This sometimes has the effect of bringing out > the worst in others who instinctively want to retort > with equal vitriol. > Mario replies: > Cornel, Maybe honesty is too much to ask for someone for whom truth is like putty to be used as convenient. However, would you please post the Goanet URL where I called Marlon a moron? > Another thing. While I posted a detailed analysis proving Marlon's anti-Christian tendencies and personal abuse and endless repetitions of falsehoods about others, using his own words from the Goanet archives, all you are reduced to is some more comical abuse yourself. > Would it be too much to ask for you to comment on the specifics of what I post, on any subject, even if it means little coming from someone for whom all true knowledge is provisional? > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples/In defense ofMarlon
Hi Mario I did not say that you called Marlon a "Moron" on Goanet. You need to learn to read more carefully. I was of course referring to the often said "Moron" for Marlon by you on another site. Many on Goanet have had access to GX and so know full well what I am talking about. As to your second point, I do not claim to have invented the view that all knowledge is provisional. This is the accepted view of all scholarly scientists and philosophers of knowledge. In contrast, you push your lightweight commonsense view that you have examples of "true knowledge" which is pure humbug. I have no doubts as to which side of this divide I stand on. I do not need to debate and waste my time, on this issue, with someone so uninformed on this issue as you. Indeed, for someone who seemingly presents himself as all-knowing, I am surprised you have not corrected medical doctors like Jose and Gilbert about their knowledge base in medicine. But who knows, you may yet do so now that I have provided you a little clue that you have missed out criticising clinical medical territory to date. Cornel - Original Message - From: "Mario Goveia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples/In defense ofMarlon > --- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Hi Auri >> I do not know Marlon but have a small glimpse of his >> thinking from Goanet posts. Nevertheless, I went >> hard on Mario for depicting him as Moron >> (Menezies). Sadly, Mario has this rotten habit of >> getting abusive to one and all and probably himself >> too! This sometimes has the effect of bringing out >> the worst in others who instinctively want to retort >> with equal vitriol. >> > Mario replies: >> > Cornel, > Maybe honesty is too much to ask for someone for whom > truth is like putty to be used as convenient. > However, would you please post the Goanet URL where I > called Marlon a moron? >> > Another thing. While I posted a detailed analysis > proving Marlon's anti-Christian tendencies and > personal abuse and endless repetitions of falsehoods > about others, using his own words from the Goanet > archives, all you are reduced to is some more comical > abuse yourself. >> > Would it be too much to ask for you to comment on the > specifics of what I post, on any subject, even if it > means little coming from someone for whom all true > knowledge is provisional? >> > > > > ___ > Goanet mailing list > Goanet@lists.goanet.org > http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goa History: Destruction of Temples/In defense ofMarlon
--- cornel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Mario > I did not say that you called Marlon a "Moron" on > Goanet. You need to learn to read more carefully. I > was of course referring to the often said "Moron" > for Marlon by you on another site. Many on Goanet > have had access to GX and so know full well what I > am talking about. > Mario answers: > Cornel, I read whatever you write very carefully, knowing full well that it may not last long as it is all "provisional" :-)) > GX is an unmoderated, private newsgroup which has no relevence to discussions on Goanet. It is inappropriate to refer to what someone may have said on GX, in some unrelated context, to support discussions on Goanet. For example, some of your buddy Marlon's posts on GX would vaporize the brains of the Goanet moderators and readers :-)) > Those who read my comments on GX would have also seen what I was responding to and my reasons for saying whatever I said there. Goanetters do not have that ability. So it is absurd to use examples from GX in the discussions taking place on Goanet. > Cornel writes: > > As to your second point, I do not claim to have > invented the view that all knowledge is > provisional. This is the accepted view of all > scholarly scientists and philosophers of knowledge. > Mario responds: > Cornel, As far as Goanet is concerned, you are the inventor and most ardent proponent of this comical absurdity. > Thus, you are being credited on Goanet for enunciating Cornel's Law, which says that all knowledge is like silly-putty, so anyone can believe anything that suits them, including the brilliant deduction that the sum of 2 + 2 may not be 4 :-)) > The only saving grace in Cornel's Law is that the law itself is like silly-putty :-)) > Cornel writes: > > Indeed, for someone who seemingly presents himself > as all-knowing, I am surprised you have not > corrected medical doctors like Jose and Gilbert > about their knowledge base in medicine. > Mario replies: > Cornel, it has become typical of you to avoid specifying what you are talking about. If you, in your infinite, provisional and non-medical wisdom have detected some inaccuracies in the medical knowledge base of Jose or Gilbert, please share it with us instead of keeping us in suspense. > I'm sure Jose and Gilbert will be glad to clarify. > ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
