Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Santosh, Apparently medical doctors are turning to alternative incomes even after graduation as evidenced by the growing trend reported in a recent TIME magazine article. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1584803,00.html I guess HMOs are putting a squeeze on them. Kevin Saldanha Mississauga, ON. == Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:52:29 -0800 (PST) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians In the U.S. it is mostly because of a drastic change in career plans such as business, pursuit of fundamental research not requiring medical qualifications and disillusionment.
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The smartest, the most talented and the most hardworking are still faced with the age-old questions: Should they create wealth? Should they create new knowledge? Should they create works of art? Should they impart knowledge? Or should they devote their lives to alleviate the pain and suffering of the less fortunate among us? But I firmly believe that today a young man or woman can do many of these things, if not simultaneously then at least sequentially. Santosh, Then again, there is always the question of, Should one do what he likes the best? I think that question has the answer of the secret to success. Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Cornel, ... The ground reality is that in the USA and likely in the rest of the world, over the next decade there is going to be a real shortage of doctors. This is because of en-masse retirement of the baby boomer generation. We are already seeing this medical shortage in the USA, especially in rural America. I am not sure of the UK or USA, but here in Aus, medical graduates prefer city to country for obvious reasons - better pay and better social life. My son is at the moment in a quasi-rural environment, his option to give back to society, but he is enjoying a pretty good outdoor social life at weekends along with others of the same type, who have given up city and home comforts to serve the community in unfamiliar surroundings. Surprisingly, one of my son's colleagues is a dentist qualified from Goa, along with others from New Zealand and Malaysia. Also recently, there was this documentary on ABC (Australia's equivalent of the BBC, I suppose) about a couple of medical students who were on a remote island doing their training - unfortunately, they got too emotionally tied to the rural community and had their stay cut short. I reckon the joys of serving in a rural community ought to be presented to students of medicine alongside other social issues usually presented from time to time during their courses, to provide for an alternate setting to their practice in future. Cheers, Gabriel. Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Kevin Thanks, but is (now silent) friend Mario reading this illuminating exchange? If not, we are proverbially, perhaps just casting pearls to swine! On the other point you make, here too in the UK, we are seeing some disillusioned by the big bucks culture (merchant banking etc) in the City and coming into school teaching , dramatics, and lifestyle enhancing 'creative' work. TV shows on veterinary work (not yet called medicine here) is also attracting lots of keen students. Finally, can I check whether the qualified vet has the title of Doctor in North America? Here the dental surgeon may use the title of Dr after long last but not yet the Vet I'm sure. Regards Cornel - Original Message - From: Kevin Saldanha [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians Hi Cornel, Veterinary medicine is a highly regarded profession in the west and therefore claims a top-spot among students not only for it's relatively comfortable remuneration but more so for the job satisfaction it affords... This is becoming a big draw for the younger generation of graduates who no longer hold the mighty dollar in awe. Lifestyle and work/family balance are key motivators for aspirants to veterinary medicine.
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Allwyn Many thanks for a succinct answer to my question about entry to software engineering. It well confirms my hunch. Cornel - Original Message - From: allwyntc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED]; goanet@lists.goanet.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 4:23 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians Hi Cornel, Certainly. If MacDonald's paid half as well, you'd suddenly find many who discovered they had just the right aptitude for flipping burgers. Allwyn.
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Santosh Many thanks for your helpful response to my query about software engineering in India and the USA, and also for other useful information comparing student university entry by subject in Goa and the US. Santosh, another question---when are you next likely to pass through London? As previously expressed by Roland, it would be great to meet up with you, even if briefly, like when changing flights at the airport. Regards Cornel Hi Cornel, I think the drop out rate from U.S. medical schools is low, but perhaps higher than that from the medical college in Goa. The reasons for dropping out in the U.S. are most likely much different from those in Goa...
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Cornel, Veterinary medicine is a highly regarded profession in the west and therefore claims a top-spot among students not only for it's relatively comfortable remuneration but more so for the job satisfaction it affords. This is becoming a big draw for the younger generation of graduates who no longer hold the mighty dollar in awe. Lifestyle and work/family balance are key motivators for aspirants to veterinary medicine. Back home attitudes toward the lowly 'dukransovois' are also changing as people have begun to realise their worth in the livestock and public health arenas. Pet care is not as highly sought after but is growing by leaps and bounds as more and more 'deshis' can afford the luxury of treating a pet as a member of the family rather than a sentry or pest controller. Kevin Saldanha Mississauga, ON. === Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:14:50 - From: Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Hi Santosh Many thanks for the subject choice list at American universities/colleges. It is not dissimilar to the choice in the UK and perhaps even Goa. However, veterinary science is the hardest to get into (i.e. even harder than medicine), at present, and physiotheraphy has become very competitive too. I am sure Kevin Saldanha will note the point about study for veterinary study at this end, and hopefully, Mario, our covert mechanical engineer, will stop deridedly referring to him as the animal doctor for want of knowing any better!
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Cornel, Regarding: Is software engineering reaching a point of saturation and are people generally paid well in this field because of a general lack of job security for a variety of reasons? And linked to this, did many who might have chosen medicine, dentistry and law rush into software engineering because it suddenly became pretty attractive financially? Certainly. If MacDonald's paid half as well, you'd suddenly find many who discovered they had just the right aptitude for flipping burgers. Allwyn.
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Cornel, I think the drop out rate from U.S. medical schools is low, but perhaps higher than that from the medical college in Goa. The reasons for dropping out in the U.S. are most likely much different from those in Goa. In Goa the only case of drop out that I know was because of failure. In the U.S. it is mostly because of a drastic change in career plans such as business, pursuit of fundamental research not requiring medical qualifications and disillusionment. Two of my friends who dropped out of medical school here have ended up becoming world-renowned neuroscientists. Regarding recruiting medical students from other disciplines, this is quite common in the U.S., and has been so for at least 3 decades. A large percentage of engineers routinely become doctors. Regarding law, a law school degree is still coveted in the U.S., unlike in Goa. And there is at least as much competition to get into a law school as there is to get into a medical school. Bachelor's degrees in general have much more value in the U.S. than in Goa. They better have it, because college education is very expensive. Regarding software engineering, perhaps, it is more lucrative in India than in the U.S. because of outsourcing. If money is all one cares about then besides successful entrepreneurship, the highest incomes are generated in private equity, followed by investment banking. The smartest, the most talented and the most hardworking are still faced with the age-old questions: Should they create wealth? Should they create new knowledge? Should they create works of art? Should they impart knowledge? Or should they devote their lives to alleviate the pain and suffering of the less fortunate among us? But I firmly believe that today a young man or woman can do many of these things, if not simultaneously then at least sequentially. My son is embarking on this experiment next summer. Let us see how things turn out. Cheers, Santosh --- Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is always surprising to see that a significant proportion opt out of medicine close to the finishing stage and also after graduating. Does this happen in America or Goa too? One innovation now in a few UK universities is to recruit medical students who have graduated in any field and worked for some considerable time. Recruitment could be up to age 40 but on a shorter more intensive course. This plan has partly been introduced to reduce the high drop-out from the traditional six-year course in medicine starting at 18. ...However, law is not a postgraduate course as such but we do have unusual courses for barristers (via prestigous and ancient Inns of Court) and different routes for solicitors. ...Is software engineering reaching a point of saturation and are people generally paid well in this field because of a general lack of job security for a variety of reasons?
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Santosh Many thanks for the subject choice list at American universities/colleges. It is not dissimilar to the choice in the UK and perhaps even Goa. However, veterinary science is the hardest to get into (i.e. even harder than medicine), at present, and physiotheraphy has become very competitive too. I am sure Kevin Saldanha will note the point about study for veterinary study at this end, and hopefully, Mario, our covert mechanical engineer, will stop deridedly referring to him as the animal doctor for want of knowing any better! Could anyone on Goanet please let us know the subject preference among undergraduates in Goa as well as in Canada? One big difference in course provision across the Atlantic is medicine. In America, it is a postgraduate qualification as you say while here, entry is through very high grades and rigorous interviews at A level (age 18) followed by a six year undergraduate programme. In the third year, one generally does a BSc too. Probably this is to allow those who want to leave medicine to opt out in the third year with a bachelor's degree if necessary. It is always surprising to see that a significant proportion opt out of medicine close to the finishing stage and also after graduating. Does this happen in America or Goa too? One innovation now in a few UK universities is to recruit medical students who have graduated in any field and worked for some considerable time. Recruitment could be up to age 40 but on a shorter more intensive course. This plan has partly been introduced to reduce the high drop-out from the traditional six-year course in medicine starting at 18. However, I don't think medicine here will follow the American training model because of the historic stiff traditional specialist A level entry qualification, two years after the school leaving age of 16. Incidentally, young people in the UK have 13 years of schooling compared to 12 in India but I stand corrected if this has changed in India and I hope RKN is reading this as we have privately exchanged correspondence on such issues before. One good thing today is the concept of transferrable skills on undergraduate courses. This allows people to switch careers more easily than ever before and in situations where there is a high wastage rate after graduation, as in law, increasing numbers enter law after a first degree in virtually any field and then undertake law degree conversion courses. However, law is not a postgraduate course as such but we do have unusual courses for barristers (via prestigous and ancient Inns of Court) and different routes for solicitors. We must keep up with such exchange of info but I have just one final question to Goanetters across the board: Is software engineering reaching a point of saturation and are people generally paid well in this field because of a general lack of job security for a variety of reasons? And linked to this, did many who might have chosen medicine, dentistry and law rush into software engineering because it suddenly became pretty attractive financially? Regards Cornel - Original Message - From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:30 The derisive attitude towards other people's vocations is a troubling phenomenon, which invariably stems from a lack of knowledge or a gross misunderstanding of the subject at hand. Lest such derision and the associated assertions produce a distorted picture of the educational qualifications sought by the modern workplace, let me provide a listing of the 12 most popular disciplines in which bachelor's degrees are being granted by U.S. universities today. In fact, Social Sciences and History constitute the second most popular discipline in the U.S. after Business. The list of popular majors in descending order is as follows... Santosh
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians -Parrikar will be to Goa what Lee Kwan Yew was to Singapore!
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway Asking Canadian $ 31,500/- or Indian Rs 10 lakhs Contact Rosario Fernandes - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Frederick, Thanks for your note. Firstly IITians are not your run-of-the-mill engineers from India who are often exploited in Europe and America. IITians often end up as captains of industry in India and abroad. For the Greater Good of our beloved Goa we need to stuff the IITs with Goan students so that they can be the leaders of industry in Goa and Goa becomes the hub of high teach industry and foreign and Indian companies flock to Goa. To eradicate the pain suffered by any IITian (if any) or non-IIT graduate engineers in India in general and Goa in particular, it is imperative that Clean, Non-Corrupt Manohar Parrikar be elected Goa Chief Minister in May. Besides his honesty, dedication, effectiveness and efficiency and his administrative skills and knowledge of Good Governance, Parrikar stands Head and Shoulders above all possible Chief Minister Candidates in Goa for his intellectual capacity. When an experienced IITian is elected Chief Minister, then he understands IT and the needs of the IT Industry. Then all IT firms (Foreign and Indian) will flock to Goa and set up operations there and provide high-paying jobs to Goans. Then all Goans can enjoy their Chicken Dobrada at Ernesto's and brag about the Dobrad Shanno Parrikar who is Chief Minister of Goa ! Like Lee Kuan Yew transformed and unified Singapore (from a sleepy backwater with the divided loyalties of Chinese, Indian and Malay populations) to a much admired global, dominant economy, so also technocrat Manohar Parrikar holds the promise of Transforming Goa into a model state of the Indian Union, whom all Christaos and Koknes will be proud of and brag about ! He will soon be summoned to Delhi to replace our erudite P.M. Dr. Manmohan Singh. So its Now or Never for Goa to elect Parrikar as CM ! Imagine what any Goan will feel on the day after election in May - if he did not vote for Parrikar in May and that is why he voted to deprive Goa of its best chance to attain Goa Dourada ! That will be a horrible feeling that no Goan should live with ! Best Regards, Dr. Carmo D'Cruz, Goan, IITian Indian Harbour Beach, Florida From: Frederick \FN\ Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CARMO DCRUZ [EMAIL PROTECTED], Miguel Braganza CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: IIT and IITians Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:39:32 +0530 On 13/02/07, CARMO DCRUZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Eeryone, With the impending victory of IITian Manohar Parrikar for Goa Chief Minister in the May elections, there is a lot of interest in Goa about IIT and IITians. I am sorry to know that the common Goenkar does not know the difference between ITIs (Engineering Diploma granting colleges) and IITs (India's elite, world famous Engineering Colleges). So here is a Primer on the IITs. The ITIs are not ITIs which are engineering diploma-granting colleges ; IITs are not institutions offering certificates for short-term technical or craftsmen courses. The IITs? They create demigods ...See below. FN DEMIGODS AND THE DARK SIDE OF MOON (Tragedy of IITs) Author - Anil Chawla The glamour associated with IIT's (Indian Institutes of Technology) has grown over the years. IITs themselves have added to the hype to some degree, while the rest of it has been built up on one hand by the large number of coaching institutes that charge an exorbitant fee for helping one gain entry through the pearly gates of Joint Entrance Examination (JEE). On the other hand, the media plays its role in contributing to the hype by dutifully printing success stories of ex-IITians in USA and by highlighting the fancy astronomical salaries that are given away by companies falling over one another to get hold of the prized catch. All this hype has indeed helped build the myth of demigod around an IITian. ... ... ANIL CHAWLA 21 April, 2001
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 Hi Cornel, Thanks for your explanation about the medical situation in UK. If Britain cared for those whom it invited to its country to serve its needs, it could find solutions to the problem. The ground reality is that in the USA and likely in the rest of the world, over the next decade there is going to be a real shortage of doctors. This is because of en-masse retirement of the baby boomer generation. We are already seeing this medical shortage in the USA, especially in rural America. The British government together with the BMA (British Medical Association) could work with Commonwealth governments to see how this could be resolved into a win-win-win situation for all. This rather than trying to absolve themselves with some high flying rhetoric. Thus Britain could train these doctors (use them as low-paying house officers), while training them in specialities that the movers and shakers in various countries can see a medical shortage down the line. Perhaps you could pass this on to Mr. Keith Vaz, MP and others, including the Indian physician associations in UK. Kind Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians and overseas doctors in the UK.
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 Hi Gilbert There's no love lost. I am glad there is no disagreement between us over previous posts. I read your post totally differently from the way you say you had intended it and I now accept this. Re the problem over the doctors from overseas (specifically outside the EU) there are many from the Indian subcontinent, Africa and the Caribbean affected by the need to now apply for work permits. However, this does not apply to those already well into their training, mainly for Royal College Membership but this all depends on their first securing a six-month job from here. It applies to those whom I suspect anticipated reduction of training opportunities because of an expanded EU and made a dash here to beat the anticipated deadline. Unfortunately, this has coincided with a sharp reduction in posts for reasons of finance with thousands here losing their jobs from junior doctor to consultant and whole hospitals scheduled for closure. Personally, I blame it on poor management and Blair personally especially over the severe shortage of dentists in the NHS. Blair promised the earth and delivered zilch re the NHS but still proclaims he has done wonders. Unfortunately, it is the small guy who loses out most. I personally saw this boil growing over two years at least and had written to two Health Secretaries over this period. The boil has now been lanced using medical parlance but metaphorically with a bad taste in the mouth. The key point is that even if the doctors who took the case to the High Court had won, it would have been a useless victory. This is because one first needs a job to train and as perhaps 250+ junior doctors apply for a single post, it is virtually impossible to get a job in the current climate. There are odd posts that traditionally became cinderella postings as in psychiatry and paediatrics in recent years for different reasons and even GP work. However, local grads are taking even these posts now and there simply is no space for non EU doctors let alone home produced ones. The numbers from Poland alone were remarkably high and this is why workers from Bulgaria and Romania (the last two countries to join) have been 'technically blocked' for now and there is a lot of anger from these countries too. My own position re the overseas doctor, is a case of buyer beware before spending so much money to get to the UK in current times. I forgot to say to Dr Barad that Keith Vaz had a greater responsibility to his constituents in Leicester, and Indians in UK generally, to see that young doctors, many of Indian heritage, trained in the UK, had to get training jobs meant for them. In the present political circumstances, it would be suicide for him politically to champion the cause of the overseas doctors. As he is a politician to his fingertips, Dr Barad's hopes for Vaz to act otherwise were forlorn. It was also interesting to note that the points I made to Dr Barad were somewhat different to those made by Jose Colaco in that, I focused on reality on the ground. For instance, there is hardly anything ever in print about consultants favouring older/experienced overseas doctors in preference to new young UK graduates. With the former, the consultant got the safe pair of hands to allow him to do private work, travel to conferences etc---something he would have to forego with untried/inexperienced hands fresh from UK universities but for whom he (the consultant) had a primary teaching/inducting responsibility. I have met at least ten Indian/Goan doctors here who have had no choice but to return or try elsewhere like the USA. We searched our brains to see any way out for these poor souls but all avenues became blocked overnight. I do feel sorry if I came a bit hard on Dr Barad but this was definitely not intended and I hope he reads this. I suspect that he has a family member/friend who may have got entangled in this sorry mess at this end. Regards Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 2:22 AM Subject: [Goanet] IIT and IITians Hi Cornel, I have often rebuked you for not reading what is written. And then for creating a straw man, against whom you can rail. The point you are making in your post (below) is precisely the point I was making. You rightly point out the golden days of Britain was when
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 Hi Gilbert Let me correct you immediately when you say that is why western countries recruit/admit as immigrants technical skilled people and not history and social science majors. You clearly overlook the fact that, very paradoxically, technical skills like engineering enjoy low status in a Western country like Britain today and have done so for well over a century and a half. This is indeed paradoxical because the first ever industrial revolution, which occured in Britain, was so reliant on technical skills, not only within Britain but also in the former British Empire. Thus Britain as the workshop of the world, supplied technical skills, personnel and equipment to the then developing countries like the USA, Canada, Russia, South American countries, China, Japan, African countries, India and a host of others. Ageing British built locomotives still chug along merrily on several Indian railroads to this day and reputedly, there are 'stables' of superbly engineered and priceless Rolls Royce cars, retained in former Indian palaces and thus to be found there collectively more than anywhere else in the world! However, advanced technology is not quite dead in Britain. It seems concentrated largely in secretive military hardware development and production to be sold very profitably worldwide. Sadly, this includes many weapons of mass destruction or WMDs. The relatively low status associated with low income for engineers, including natural scientists, as indicated above, means that few are drawn to these fields/disciplines in Britain. It is not particularly competitive to get into university to do such technical subjects because of the relatively low demand. Indeed, some university courses could only remain open through active overseas recruitment of students. In contrast, the brightest in the UK compete ferociously to enter the prestigious institutions teaching English, History and the Social Sciences as well as medicine (but which may unfortunately, well go the way of engineering) for other complex reasons. In many respects, this is an inversion of the situation in a country like India, and I have always argued that science, technology and engineering should be given greater status/standing than they do in bourgeois Britain which chooses to purchase (relatively cheaply), required skills from abroad as also does America--- whilst parodoxically remaining at the cutting edge of much science and technology but perhaps for a minority. The important reason why people with technical/engineering skills are recruited to Britain, say from India, is definitely not for the reason you impute---but due to shortages for the socio-historical reason I have given above and also as articulated by young Sunith in a substantial and excellent piece on Goanet some months ago. I therefore suggest that, if you had even a limited grounding or inkling into the subjects you seem snidely to deride (history and social science majors), you would think more clearly and might not have made your overly simplistic commonsense statement---smileys or no smileys! Regards Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:09 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians Those who are skilled enough to go through the technical training are / can be skilled enough to pick up other attributes needed to be successful in life. That is why western countries recruit / admit as immigrants technical skilled people and not history and social science majors. :=)) Kind Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 This is an interesting point: I've always thought that these statistics are biased because the way the entrance exams are set up. In India, the exam is *solely*, or at least, primarily for the IITs, so it costs the student nothing to tick the boxes next to all the IITs. Of course, this results in double counting, but more importantly, this means that each of the 250,000 students taking the JEE apply to every IIT. In the US, because you know your SAT score *before* you begin applying, you only apply to those places where you stand a chance, so the submerged tenth (or even nine-tenths) never apply to MIT. To claim this as a virtue of the IITs strikes me as flawed. Andre From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians To: goanet@goanet.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Carmo, You did not mention, getting admission to India's IIT is more competitive and tougher than getting into MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) or RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology). André de Souza http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adesouza Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 --- Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I therefore suggest that, if you had even a limited grounding or inkling into the subjects you seem snidely to deride (history and social science majors), you would think more clearly and might not have made your overly simplistic commonsense statement---smileys or no smileys! The derisive attitude towards other people's vocations is a troubling phenomenon, which invariably stems from a lack of knowledge or a gross misunderstanding of the subject at hand. Lest such derision and the associated assertions produce a distorted picture of the educational qualifications sought by the modern workplace, let me provide a listing of the 12 most popular disciplines in which bachelor's degrees are being granted by U.S. universities today. In fact, Social Sciences and History constitute the second most popular discipline in the U.S. after Business. The list of popular majors in descending order is as follows (from data obtained from the U.S. Department of Education): DISCIPLINES (Percent of total degrees granted) 1. Business (21.95%) 2. Social sciences and history (10.74%) 3. Education (7.59%) 4. Psychology (5.86%) 5. Visual and performing arts (5.51%) 6. Health professions and related clinical sciences (5.28%) 7. Communication, journalism, and related programs (5.07%) 8. Engineering (4.54%) 9. Biological and biomedical sciences (4.39%) 10. Computer and information sciences (4.25%) 11. English language and literature/letters (3.85%) 12. Liberal arts and sciences, general studies, and humanities (3.00%) It is important to note that Engineering is a regular undergraduate college major in all universities that offer it in the U.S., just like English, Economics, Physics, and so on. There are no separate admission procedures and criteria for admission to Engineering colleges. Indeed, even technical universities such as Caltech and MIT offer degrees in Humanities and Social Sciences. One chooses one's major, whether it is Electrical Engineering or French or Religious Studies in the 2nd or 3rd year of college. Only Law and Medicine have separate admission procedures and criteria because they are postgraduate programs. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 Hi Cornel, I have often rebuked you for not reading what is written. And then for creating a straw man, against whom you can rail. The point you are making in your post (below) is precisely the point I was making. You rightly point out the golden days of Britain was when it was the first ever industrial revolution, which occurred in Britain, was so reliant on technical skills,... (see below). The topic of dialogue was the technical skills of the IIT and IITians compared to an all-round non-technical training of other college graduates. I was not comparing the technical skills of Britain to India. I was comparing the training sought by developed countries, as a surrogate marker for the prized skills of individuals. In case you mis-understand me again, this does not mean the there are no smart immigrant businessmen / women, artists, writers, etc. But analyzing immigration patterns can give us an unbiased picture, without the usual rancor. BTW, I just read today about the shaft that Britain is giving its Indian trained / recruited doctors. Blimey! I hope you guys are protesting that attitude / treatment from your government. Thanks for concurring with me. Ragar zavnchem nhoi re. Taktin kitem vicharunk zai aslem. Kind Regards, GL --- Cornel DaCosta Hi Gilbert Let me correct you immediately when you say that is why western countries recruit/admit as immigrants technical skilled people and not history and social science majors. You clearly overlook the fact that, very paradoxically, technical skills like engineering enjoy low status in a Western country like Britain today and have done so for well over a century and a half. This is indeed paradoxical because the first ever industrial revolution, which occured in Britain, was so reliant on technical skills, not only within Britain but also in the former British Empire. Thus Britain as the workshop of the world, supplied technical skills, personnel and equipment to the then developing countries like the USA, Canada, Russia, South American countries, China, Japan, African countries, India and a host of others. Ageing British built locomotives still chug along merrily on several Indian railroads to this day and reputedly, there are 'stables' of superbly engineered and priceless Rolls Royce cars, retained in former Indian palaces and thus to be found there collectively more than anywhere else in the world! However, advanced technology is not quite dead in Britain. It seems concentrated largely in secretive military hardware development and production to be sold very profitably worldwide. Sadly, this includes many weapons of mass destruction or WMDs.
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians - A Primer
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 What Roland writes below is nonsense. Suppose you have two engineers, both from the same institute. One is enormously intelligent and possesses in large quantities the qualities required for success, the other less so. Which do you expect would go on to do great things with his life? Obviously the first. Now which one would you expect to be eager to learn more, to study further? Again, the first. The point I'm trying to make is that success and the acquisition of further degrees are likely to be correlated, so that the statement that the only ones who have shone both in an Indian and international context are those that have supplanted their IIT background with a western acquired discipline has little, if any, content. Nobody claims that the IITs are great post-graduate institutions. As far as I know, the post-graduate departments are filled with non-IITians who wish to acquire the cachet. I say this without malice; I have been in a similar position myself. The IITians in general either go to the US to do their masters and PhDs, but this might not be because their undergraduate degrees were worthless, but because their undergraduate degrees equipped them better than anybody else's undergraduate degrees for selection into those courses. Of course, it's hard to distinguish selection from education, so I shan't try. I should point out that I have no special love for the IITs, and have been severely offended several times by the posts of Carmo Dcruz (correct my capitalization, please), with their insinuations that the *only* people worth anything are those out of the IITs. Cornel seems to be asking quite a different question, one directed at the monomania of Dr Dcruz, who seems to think that IITs are the cure to all ills. Please correct me if you think I am wrong. Andre Subject: Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians - A Primer To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Cornel, You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. From my own experience of having met, known and heard of several IIT grads over the years, I have noted that the only ones who have shone both in an Indian and international context are those that have supplanted their IIT background with a western acquired discipline. The Insititutes' alumni stats will also bear this out. You name an IIT alumnus of substance and you will see a post-graduate or doctoral acquisitor from a western university. In a nutshell, an IIT education makes you nothing but a good Indian engineer. Anything more than that means studying outside of the IIT, indeed out of India. To make a sweeping generalization, education in India till today, except perhaps in the Information Technology fields, is good only insofar as it is a basis for a leap forward. The genesis of that may lie in the lack of structure to make students think for themselves, emphasis being on following established and narrow texts. Cheers Roland. On 2/13/07, Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Carmo I appreciate the rigour in the training part of IITians. But, how good is the educational part of the qualification, that is, how well do IITians think broadly outside the frame of their narrower/specialist training? This question may relate to a quip from Cip over this issue not too long ago. André de Souza http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adesouza It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 Hi Carmo, You did not mention, getting admission to India's IIT is more competitive and tougher than getting into MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) or RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology). There is likely to selection of the fittest because of the competitive selection process before and during the training in India's higher institutions of learning - engineering, medicine etc.. This is provided, the competition is not diluted by influence. Those who are skilled enough to go through the technical training are / can be skilled enough to pick up other attributes needed to be successful in life. That is why western countries recruit / admit as immigrants technical skilled people and not history and social science majors. :=)) So centuries of immigration patterns across the world have proven that a specific skill may be more important for evolution than some all -rounded attributes. Similarly in long run, the nerds are more successful than a smooth-talking car salesman. Kind Regards, GL CARMO DCRUZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IIT stands for the Indian Institute of Technology - there are 7 of them now 5 of the initial ones were set up in the 1950s as a Vision of Nehru to provide a highly educated high tech workforce for a newly independent India in Kharagpur near Calcutta (set up with UNESCO backing in the form of faculty and equipment), Madras (set up with German backing), Delhi (set up with British backing), Bombay (set up with USSR backing) and Kanpur (set up with US Backing). The two newest IITs were created in the late 90s/early 00s at Guwahati and Roorkee (formerly University of Roorkee - one of the oldest Engineering colleges in India set up by the British). And there are three more planned in Andra Pradesh, Bihar and Rajasthan. I have no doubt that with IITian Manohar Parrikar as Chief Minister we will have another IIT in Goa - strategically located between the high tech centers of Bombay/Pune and Bangalore. IIT is not a western acronym. It is pronounced Eye Eye Tee and the students who graduate from them are called IITians (rhymes with Indians). The IIT campuses are National Centers of Excellence, very well endowed in the form of learning/living facilities, research labs, sports facilities and internationally reputed faculties. The vast, secluded, serene IIT campuses (very conducive to learning) are very different from the Regional Engineering Colleges and other engineering colleges like VJTI or Goa Engineering College. The student body at the IITs is also world class - students are selected through a stringent Joint Entrance Exam which lasts a few days and is followed up with an equally stringent interview for placement in the different engineering disciplines. -- Dr. Cornel DaCosta Please pardon my abysmal ignorance but what exactly does IITian stand for? I assume it must be quite important as you use it a lot. Also, how does one pronounce the term and is it specifically American?
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians - A Primer
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 CARMO DCRUZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IIT is definitely going to get more visibility in Goa when IITian Manohar Parrikar is Goa Chief Minister. Dr. Carmo D'Cruz, Yale got more visibility when George Bush became President. Unfortunately, it still is an embarrassing visibility. Sort of the same thing that happened after Parrikar released his video. Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians - A Primer
*** * G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * *** T H I SS P A C EC A NB EY O U R S Advertise your Product(s) and Service(s) on Goanet S u p p o r t G o a n e t o p e r a t i o n s F o r d e t a i l s c o n t a c t : [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Hi Carmo Many thanks for a very clear and easily understandable reply to my query about IITians. However, I am sure that you will have seen a totally different explanation re my query from Afra. So now, do you have a considered view about Afra's version? I particularly await this specific response with interest! Regards Cornel PS I appreciate the rigour in the training part of IITians. But, how good is the educational part of the qualification, that is, how well do IITians think broadly outside the frame of their narrower/specialist training? This question may relate to a quip from Cip over this issue not too long ago. - Original Message - From: CARMO DCRUZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; goanet@goanet.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:33 AM Subject: RE: IIT and IITians - A Primer
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians - A Primer
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 Hi Everyone, With the impending victory of IITian Manohar Parrikar for Goa Chief Minister in the May elections, there is a lot of interest in Goa about IIT and IITians. I am sorry to know that the common Goenkar does not know the difference between ITIs (India's Engineering Diploma-granting colleges) and IITs (India's elite, world famous Engineering Degree Colleges). So here is a Primer on the IITs. IIT stands for the Indian Institute of Technology - there are 7 of them now - 5 of the initial ones were set up in the 1950s as a Vision of Nehru to provide a highly educated high tech workforce for a newly independent India - in Kharagpur near Calcutta (set up with UNESCO backing in the form of faculty and equipment), Madras (set up with German backing), Delhi (set up with British backing), Bombay (set up with USSR backing) and Kanpur (set up with US Backing). The two newest IITs were created in the late 90s/early 00s at Guwahati and Roorkee (formerly University of Roorkee - one of the oldest Engineering colleges in India set up by the British). And there are three more planned in Andra Pradesh, Bihar and Rajasthan. I have no doubt that with IITian Manohar Parrikar as Chief Minister we will have another IIT in Goa - strategically located between the high tech centers of Bombay/Pune and Bangalore. For more info on the IITs you can check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institutes_of_Technology IIT is not a western acronym. It is pronounced Eye Eye Tee and the students who graduate from them are called IITians (rhymes with Indians). The IIT campuses are National Centers of Excellence, very well endowed in the form of learning/living facilities, research labs, sports facilities and internationally reputed faculties. The vast, secluded, serene IIT campuses (very conducive to learning) are very different from the Regional Engineering Colleges and other engineering colleges like VJTI or Goa Engineering College. The student body at the IITs is also world class - students are selected through a stringent Joint Entrance Exam which lasts a few days and is followed up with an equally stringent interview for placement in the different engineering disciplines. With the best faculty, and the best, carefully selected engineering students in the country, the highly charged atmosphere in the IITs is very conducive to academic excellence, competitiveness and the pursuit of knowledge I have to admit that unfortunately due to the terrible mis-allocation of funds in India the facilities and equipment for hockey at the IITs far superceded the facilities and equipment at both NIS (National Institute of Sports) Patiala and at NIS Bangalore where I trained with our international medal-winning national teams. For example at IIT we consumed nearly half a dozen new hockey balls every day and used top of the line equipment. Whereas at the NIS our national players ran for the one or two new hockey balls that were rationed out every other day ! Over the years both IITs and IITians have far exceeded their expectations as the Vision of Nehru beyond first PM Jawaharlal Nehru's wildest dreams. IITians have helped India dominate the IT and other high tech industries world wide and have helped India emerge as a dominant force in this high tech economy. India may still be chasing an Olympic Gold Medal in hockey these days (partly due to reasons mentioned above) - but we always win Gold Medals (in the form of highly successful start-ups and IPOs) in this global high tech economy. For example Metallurgical engineers from the IITs hold a dominant position in the world today - in the US more than one in two metallurgical engineers is a graduate from the IIT - another example of how India splurges on its IIT engineers is that at IIT Kharagpur we had the world's largest non-production foundry - it was a teaching foundry - as it was used solely to train our metallurgical engineers. Here are more links on the impact of IITs and IITians on the high tech global economy of today: 1. IITs and IITians have become much revered and household terms in the US esp after a recent widely viewed interview on CBS 60 minutes: See link below. Prominently featured in this interview are IITians NR Narayanamurthy (founder of Indian IT Giant Infosys) and Vinod Khosla (co-founder of US high Tech Giant Sun Microsystems):
Re: [Goanet] IIT and IITians - A Primer
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Flat for Sale: Mapuca, Goa (Ansabhat) - 10 min walk to Mapuca Market 2 Bedroom-Living-Dining-Kitchen-Bath-Balcony-Terrazo Floors Great Investment - Winter Getaway - Asking Canadian $ 25,000/- Contact Rosario Fernandes +1 (905) 858-0871 Cornel, You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. From my own experience of having met, known and heard of several IIT grads over the years, I have noted that the only ones who have shone both in an Indian and international context are those that have supplanted their IIT background with a western acquired discipline. The Insititutes' alumni stats will also bear this out. You name an IIT alumnus of substance and you will see a post-graduate or doctoral acquisitor from a western university. In a nutshell, an IIT education makes you nothing but a good Indian engineer. Anything more than that means studying outside of the IIT, indeed out of India. To make a sweeping generalization, education in India till today, except perhaps in the Information Technology fields, is good only insofar as it is a basis for a leap forward. The genesis of that may lie in the lack of structure to make students think for themselves, emphasis being on following established and narrow texts. Cheers Roland. On 2/13/07, Cornel DaCosta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Carmo I appreciate the rigour in the training part of IITians. But, how good is the educational part of the qualification, that is, how well do IITians think broadly outside the frame of their narrower/specialist training? This question may relate to a quip from Cip over this issue not too long ago.
