Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Tue, 10/14/08, Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RESPONSE: Come off it man! No one who has commented on this forum, has stated that there is a wide spread Hindu put down of the Christian community or for that a Muslim one. You are insinuating what has not been stated on this forum, either simply or categorically The facts indicate otherwise. Here is what you stated in support of such a belief on your part: Can you just imagine the carnage that would have befallen on the Christian community all over India? This Hindu mindset scares the shit out of me. Gabe Menezes I would put it to you that so far, I have seen only valid points being put out by the oppressed community Gabe Menezes On the other hand it is blatantly clear that you wish to pour emollient over the the attacks by the Bajrang Dal and its variants... The above is a blatant falsehood. I have stated that incitement by Hindutva outfits is a cause of the riots. Before you realised that Murthy had affilations, you were ncock a hoop about another view! It is indeed another view, albeit a biased one because of his affiliation. Unfortunately, we have not been able to get an unbiased non-partisan account of the situation in Orissa from people who have genuine knowledge about the events on the ground, about the role of various Hindutva groups and the local government, and about the history of disputes between the Kandha and Pana folk. As for the rest of the material below, you are simply trying hard to fabricate various baseless insinuations against me. Cheers, Santosh --- On Tue, 10/14/08, Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To put it curtly, there is simply no justification for the attacks on Christians, no excuse whatsoever, there is simply no other view - not even yours, that can be excused, to some how suggest that Christians have brought it upon themselves. That it is not really a Christian Vs Hindu issue but a tribal one - go tell it to the peasants, in Orissa who are on the receiving end.
[Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
1.S Gurumurthy says in his article on the Kandhamal violence that it was not against christians but between Kandhas and Panas. Refer below what the Chief Minister of Orissa who is a partner in the coalition government with BJP has to say in an interview with Barkha Dutt of NDTV Bajrang Dal is a fundamentalist outfit: Orissa CM Barkha Dutt Tuesday, October 14, 2008, (New Delhi) At the meeting of national integration council on Monday, BJP chief Rajnath Singh described the Bajrang Dal as a nationalist group. But now Orissa Chief Minister and NDA partner Naveen Patnaik says the Bajrang Dal is a fundamentalist outfit. Speaking exclusively to NDTV, Patnaik said many of those arrested for anti-Christian violence in the state were from the Bajrang Dal. But he refused to comment directly on a possible ban, saying he will only react when the Centre takes a final stand. He clarified that none of the letters sent by the Home Ministry mention Article 355. President's rule in Orissa would be political misuse, he said. Patnaik said that the Centre sent ten companies of trainees when we asked for help. Home Ministry sent helicopters five days late, he added. Orissia Chief Minister's admission is likely to fuel the debate over banning the Sangh Parivar outfit. On Saturday, in an exclusive interview to NDTV, National Security Advisor M K Naraynan said SIMI and Bajrang Dal are not two sides of the same coin, but both of them are dangerous. He added that You can ban it (Bajrang Dal) but you will then not be able to sustain it. Thereafter, several political leaders reacted to the NSA's observations. Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav said the NSA spoke like a bureaucrat, while the Opposition said the instance showed there were differences of opinion in the government. 2.Christian missionaries are being regularly accused of 'forced conversions' without adducing any proof or evidence. And without a single case or conviction since the past 60 years. Refer to article below by Sampad Mahapatra of NDTV on christians being forced to renounce their religion under threat of death. Scared Christians in Kandhmal turn to Hinduism Sampad Mahapatra Tuesday, October 14, 2008, (Kandhmal) On Sunday, Pope Benedict the 16th made a pointed appeal for an end to violence against Orissa's Christian minority. The Archbishop of Cuttack has petitioned the Supreme Court seeking CBI probe into the Nun rape case. The Supreme Court had earlier directed the Orissa government to protect Christians and arrange for extra security in the relief camps. The situation in Kandhmal, one of the worst affected districts, remains tense. Terrorised by the communal riots and having to choose between faith and survival, dozens of Christians in Kandhmal are embracing Hinduism, only to ensure they get back to their homes and live in peace. On Sunday, 18 Christians in Sarangad, who converted to Hinduism, claimed it was purely a voluntary decision. We were born to Christian parents and stuck to the faith for so long. But we have realised we get nothing out of being Christians. So we decided to return to Hinduism. No body has forced it on us, said Krishna Chandra Nayak, former Christian, Sarangad. Under the Orissa Freedom of Religion Act of 1967, anyone seeking religious conversion needs to apply to the Collector and wait for proper police verification to ensure it is not being done under coercion or inducement. But in Kandhmal on Tuesday the rules are different. You have to apply only to the local VHP head in a prescribed format and the wish will be quickly granted. These people had on their own given a written undertaking that they had joined the Christian faith but now they want to return to Hindu fold. I am only catering to their wishes, said Adikand Patra, Hindu priest. The 12,000-odd Christians, who are still in relief camps fear they will be killed if they don't become Hindus. But the state government has done little to allay such fears. Regards, Marshall -- Hyundai to launch the i20 in India. Catch the exclusive preview on ZigWheels.com http://www.zigwheels.com/b2cam/newsDetails.action?name=Emb11_20080731path=/INDT/News/Emb11_20080731page=1pagecount=2utm_source=indmailutm_medium=footerutm_content=trackingutm_campaign=Nletter_07oct2008_ZW
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Mon, 10/13/08, Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: QUESTION: Are you calling my assertions as being partisan? I have to go through all your posts on this issue to determine whether any of them are partisan. But here is an example of a partisan statement: COMMENT: My commiserations to India and especially the Hindu community. I am relieved that no rumours were spread that this was a Christian undertaking - this is not a tongue in cheek, statement; everyone knows the mindset of the lower class, easily swayed Hindu. Can you just imagine the carnage that would have befallen on the Christian community all over India? This Hindu mindset scares the shit out of me. .Gabe Menezes Please see the following link for context: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-September/081394.html I know that everybody is biased in one way or another but it is important to know the whole truth about any situation. The assertion below that there is simply no other point of view than yours is hardly an unbiased assertion. I do not believe that there is widespread oppression of religious minorities in India by the Hindu majority. You appear to believe otherwise (Please see the quote below). In reality, the communities that are genuinely oppressed are underprivileged castes and tribes. Casteism and tribalism are indeed among the root causes on the communal riots in Orissa, the other causes being violent hate-filled extremism of the Hindutva outfits, Maoists and other criminal elements in society. Now regarding valid points and excuses being put out in this forum, please let me know which of the scores of propaganda pieces and news items you have in mind. Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I resent that, your standing on this forum is being devalued, as you are looking through rose tinted glasses; albeit you see this forum as being dominated by Goan Christians; I would put it to you that so far, I have seen only valid points being put out by the oppressed community. It shows, it really does, when you are looking for that smidgen of excuse for what is going on. There are not ifs or buts, only facts and the end product, what we see and read, is what is happening - no two views about it, no justification for what is happening, there simply is no other point of view that could be deemed 'another dimension'
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Mon, 10/13/08, Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my opinion, the only perspective that counts is that we are seeing once again that anarchy lurks just below the surface in certain segments of Indian society, ready to erupt into wholesale violence at the slightest provocation, whether real or imagined. Even though the above is in response to a statement that I have retracted, it is a very reasonable and thoughtful perspective backed by historical evidence. The same cannot be said about the misdirected impulsive material below, which was also in response to my retracted statement. Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 10/13/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And we will have posts applauding such 'broader perspectives'. No matter there is no rationale or evidence to support such views or that facts point out to the contrary.For those who wish to believe what they wish and those who wish to live in denial, they will continue to do so. But all of us are not suckers to fall for such stories!!!
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
2008/10/14 Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Gabe Menezes s Please see the following link for context: I know that everybody is biased in one way or another but it is important to know the whole truth about any situation. The assertion below that there is simply no other point of view than yours is hardly an unbiased assertion. I do not believe that there is widespread oppression of religious minorities in India by the Hindu majority. You appear to believe otherwise (Please see the quote below). In reality, the communities that are genuinely oppressed are underprivileged castes and tribes. Casteism and tribalism are indeed among the root causes on the communal riots in Orissa, the other causes being violent hate-filled extremism of the Hindutva outfits, Maoists and other criminal elements in society. Now regarding valid points and excuses being put out in this forum, please let me know which of the scores of propaganda pieces and news items you have in mind. Cheers, Santosh RESPONSE: Come off it man! No one who has commented on this forum, has stated that there is a wide spread Hindu put down of the Christian community or for that a Muslim one. You are insinuating what has not been stated on this forum, either simply or categorically . On the other hand it is blatantly clear that you wish to pour emollient over the the attacks by the Bajrang Dal and its variants...i.e. there is another view. My contention and that of others regarding this, is that there is no other view, you may suggest that there is another view, as you have done...you are insulting our intelligence and your standing on this forum. Before you realised that Murthy had affilations, you were cock a hoop about another view! Yes, I agree we all have our biases; defending the oppressed and down trodden cannot be counted as one of them. To put it curtly, there is simply no justification for the attacks on Christians, no excuse whatsoever, there is simply no other view - not even yours, that can be excused, to some how suggest that Christians have brought it upon themselves. That it is not really a Christian Vs Hindu issue but a tribal one - go tell it to the peasants, in Orissa who are on the receiving end. I am totally taken aback by your inference that, in this instance there is another angle to be perceived. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London.
[Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
I refer to the article Orissa violence*Kandhamal and Bengaluru** by S Gurumurthy posted by Rina Mukherji I would like to pose a few questions to Rina since she thought it fit to post such an article: 1. Do you agree or endorse the views of the author? If yes, why? 2. Do you condone the violence against christians in Orissa, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, MP and elsewhere? Or do you believe that such violence has not / is not taking place but is merely a figment of everyone's imagination? 3. Do you believe that the violent activities of the VHP / BD are good for the country? If yes, why? 4. Do you endorse or support the idea of taking law into one's own hands and administering real or perceived justice? 5. Can you provide official data, facts,evidence, proofs, statistics to support the contention of the author? 6. Do you support the hindutva ideology that christian and muslim minorities can only live as second class citizens of this nation? I look forward to your response. Regards, Marshall -- Will the all new Indica Vista zip ahead of the Suzuki Swift? Read the expert review on Zigwheels.com http://zigwheels.com/b2cam/reviewsDetails.action?name=Ro11_20080829path=/INDT/Reviews/Ro11_20080829page=1pagecount=9
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
2008/10/13 Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Good to see another broader perspective on this problem being posted here. Cheers, Santosh RESPONSE: Yes, unfortunately, the receiving end just happen to be Christians and the dishing end happen to be Hindus. How about another slant another perspective on the happenings elsewhere in India? We need further justification for the dastardly deeds. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London.
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Mon, 10/13/08, Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RESPONSE: Yes, unfortunately, the receiving end just happen to be Christians and the dishing end happen to be Hindus. The receiving end of communal violence are innocent people of all faiths, persuasions and perspectives. It is high time that all chauvinists and partisans in this forum recognize this fact. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Mon, 10/13/08, Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good to see another broader perspective on this problem being posted here. I am sorry, I just realized that S. Gurumurthy's perspective is also a partisan and political perspective. His organization appears to be affiliated with the RSS. In keeping with my skepticism towards any sort of propaganda from partisans and political operatives, I retract my above assertion. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
2008/10/13 Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good to see another broader perspective on this problem being posted here. I am sorry, I just realized that S. Gurumurthy's perspective is also a partisan and political perspective. His organization appears to be affiliated with the RSS. In keeping with my skepticism towards any sort of propaganda from partisans and political operatives, I retract my above assertion. Cheers, Santosh QUESTION: Are you calling my assertions as being partisan? I resent that, your standing on this forum is being devalued, as you are looking through rose tinted glasses; albeit you see this forum as being dominated by Goan Christians; I would put it to you that so far, I have seen only valid points being put out by the oppressed community. It shows, it really does, when you are looking for that smidgen of excuse for what is going on. There are not ifs or buts, only facts and the end product, what we see and read, is what is happening - no two views about it, no justification for what is happening, there simply is no other point of view that could be deemed 'another dimension' -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London.
[Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good to see another broader perspective on this problem being posted here. Mario observes: In my opinion, the only perspective that counts is that we are seeing once again that anarchy lurks just below the surface in certain segments of Indian society, ready to erupt into wholesale violence at the slightest provocation, whether real or imagined. For groups of citizens to take the law into their own hands is not a good sign for a diverse democracy that is over 60 years old. The good news is that most Hindus are tolerant, embrace freedom and democracy and oppose the mob rule that we have seen recently. If they were not, India would be as ethnically cleansed as Pakistan by now. The bad news is that those who are supposed to protect innocent citizens are often MIA, or show up too late.
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
As I read Rina's post, THIS IS a clash between the two religious groups. Rina has not given us any other logical basis for the clash. I agree if Rina suggests that the two neighboring tribes / castes are clashing over diminishing resources - land, jobs, housing, govt largess. And using religion as a spice (excuse). This may be the underlying problem all over India, as suggested by the Catholic Church in India. Now why should these uneducated people not be allowed to use religion as a 'spicy explanation' to understand and explain their problems? After all do not the 'intellectuals' in India and on Goanet use religion to blame many of the ills of the past and the present? Are not chauvinists and partisans on this forum also called Bigots? Regards, GL -- Santosh Helekar The receiving end of communal violence are innocent people of all faiths, persuasions and perspectives. It is high time that all chauvinists and partisans in this forum recognize this fact. --- Gabe Menezes Yes, unfortunately, the receiving end just happen to be Christians and the dishing end happen to be Hindus. Rina Mukherji the Kandhamal arson is not, as it has been concocted, a clash between Hindu and Christian faithfuls at all.The truth is that it is a continuation of the clashes that had started in early 1990s between the 'Kandha' tribe, which did not convert to Christianity, and 'Pana' caste people, most of whom had converted. ... Religion is the spice added to this mix.
[Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
Orissa violence*Kandhamal and Bengaluru** * *S Gurumurthy http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/searchresult.aspx?AliasName=hFCTl|iAcllTfqOIJxi9IQ== * *First Published : **11 Sep 2008** 02:00:00 AM IST* *Last Updated : **14 Sep 2008** 10:43:48 AM IST* Contrary to what Indians here and Christians elsewhere have been told by evangelical missionaries, media and seculars, the Kandhamal arson is not, as it has been concocted, a clash between Hindu and Christian faithfuls at all.The truth is that it is a continuation of the clashes that had started in early 1990s between the 'Kandha' tribe, which did not convert to Christianity, and 'Pana' caste people, most of whom had converted. Religion is the spice added to this mix. Kandhas are a Scheduled Tribe (ST) and 'Panas' are a Scheduled Caste (SC).. Both are entitled to reservation benefits under the Constitution, yet, with a difference. While ST reservation will continue even if the beneficiary becomes a Christian, the SC reservation will cease on conversion. When the Panas became Christians they lost their reservation rights. But under the influence of the missionaries and secular parties, and claiming to speak the same language 'Kui' as Kandhas, they agitated for ST status. So that, despite becoming Christians, their reservation rights would continue if they got listed as ST. But the Kandhas, who saw that their share of reservation would be cut into if the Pana demand were conceded began resisting it. Reservation is a cause of the Khand-Pana divide, but not the only cause; dispute over land is another. The Kandhas were the traditional rulers of Kandhamal and that is the reason the district bears their name. The lands at Kandhamal belonged to them by the traditional rights that go with the tribes. It was their misfortune that the Kandhas chose to remain true to their traditional faith and resisted conversion to Christianity. The Panas were fortunate as most of them became Christians accepting the allurements offered by over 360 evangelical outfits operating in Kandhamal and harvesting souls for the 'Only True Faith' and 'God' and, in the process, raking in millions and millions of dollars from global funds for the noble harvest. Besides the perks that conversion yielded, the Panas, as Christian minorities, have the protection of the state, patronage of the media and secular parties, and above all, the powerful support of the Christian nations all over the world. The Kandhas,whose only fault was that they did not convert, have none of these. So they suffer all the limitations of the majority community under the skewed Indian Constitution that clubs the Hindus in Mumbai with the Kandhas in Khandmal! With such powerful secular forces ranged against them, the Kandhas are being further cornered in two ways. One, the Panas who have become relatively better off have gradually taken over much of the lands of the Kandhas, by commerce and fraud, as the Kandhas see it. Two, on top of it, the Panas are also claiming the ST status to grab a share of the reservation from the Kandhas, and thanks to the secular parties' support, seem to be nearly getting it. In substance thus, it is a Kandha vs Pana war over land rights and reservation. Surprisingly, in the face of the 'itch of his colleagues' to paste Hindu-Christian label on Kandhamal, Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil saw the truth and 'refused to treat' the ongoing clashes 'as communal'! But, more surprisingly, only one newspaper, a financial daily, reported his view while others blacked it out. This is not the first time that the Kandhas and the Panas are at war. In 1992, the war between them lasted for three months, resulting in over 20 deaths. The issue was then, as it is now, land and reservation, which was the very consequence of conversion of the Panas to Christianity. The Panas got financial and political advantage and also gained lands belonging to the Kandhas. Though they lost their reservation benefits in the bargain, they began reclaiming them through their demand for ST status. It needs no seer to say that it is religious conversions that sequenced into hostilities between the Kandhas disadvantaged as Hindu majority and the Panas protected as Christian minority. No major clash between the Kandhas and the Panas was reported before the missionaries entered Kandhamal. The Christian population in Kandhamal which was some two per cent in 1961 and six per cent in 1971, rose to 27 per cent in 2001.These numbers speak volumes. Yet, now the missionaries, media and the seculars shout from house tops that only after VHP and Bajrang Dal have entered the scene, there are clashes and the minorities are being butchered. In 1992, there was no VHP worth the name in Orissa; and the Bajrang Dal was not yet born. Yet bloody clashes did occur in Kandhamal between the Kandhas and the Panas. This points to the one and only fact — that it is not the VHP or the Bajrang Dal, but the entry of global evangelism aided by
