Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse
Prof Borges: Considering the above, I do not think you are serious when you say, "Let us first standardize." Regards, Sebastian Borges?? RESPONSE: Sorry, Professor, I was educated in Engleeesh and Kiswahili. I learn't the "mother tongue" on the fly* in Goa, when my father returned to the 'vaterland'! * on the fly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_fly -- "Tony de Sa" < tonydesa at gmail dot com>
Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse
Dear Tony, Seems you have got me wrong. I certainly did not doubt the sincerity of your intentions. But, considering the state the Konkani language is in, I did not expect an erudite person of your stature to seriously suggest that we should standardize the language before it is used in schools. We have to admit that in today’s world, standardization of a language cannot be imposed from the top; only a Kemal Ataturk could have made such an attempt. Even if a Committee is officially appointed, there is no guarantee that the recommendations will be universally accepted, assuming that the Committee will itself come to a unanimous decision. As matters stand, we cannot even agree to follow a set of orthographic rules! But, if at all it is to succeed, standardization must happen, it must come about, evolve. And this can happen or evolve only through the free and willing participation of speakers of the language belonging to the various groups. For Konkani, the groups are regional, linguistic, caste etc among whom one notices dialectal variations. It would be ideal if writers from each group write in their own dialect and the same is read by writers from all the other dialects. When all are exposed to the lexical and phonetic variations, the writers are likely to use those words/phrases from others' dialects which they find attractive. This process will also throw up a thesaurus of the most popular usage, leading to spontaneous but gradual standardization. Unfortunately for Konkani, this does not happen. And one of the hurdles is the multiplicity of scripts that the language is burdened with. It is essential that the reader gets the nuances of another's dialect with all its phonetic variations. This could be conveyed more effectively by everyone writing in a single Indic script (Devanagari, Kannada etc.) wherein the characters have intrinsic phonetic values, rather than in a script like the Roman, where the phonetic value of a character varies from language to language and even within the same language. But here again, we are bogged down by avoidable controversies. Therefore, if we wait to introduce Konkani in schools until we have standardized the language, we shall never be able to do, it. And this is why I thought you are not serious about that suggestion. One need not know everything about any subject/topic; therefore, ignorance is not a sin. But one need not display that ignorance arrogantly. Survival of the fittest may be a law fit for the jungle, but the modern precept is to provide a level playing field. The English language borrows foreign words, but these are for new things and concepts to express which it does not possess equivalents in its own lexicon; they do not replace or displace already existing ones. This is not the case with borrowings into Konkani; our children do not know the Konkani words for familiar things, but can effortlessly cite English names for the same. This is not enrichment of the Konkani language. Insisting on native words, where such exist, is certainly not Puritanism. Sebastian Borges On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 Tony de Sa wrote: WHAT I HAVE TO SAY: Thank you for that very elaborate and erudite reply. As for the Konkani language goes, I am a 'nennar' as far as these intense linguistic studies go. I have sufficient command of the Konkani language to communicate and to go about my business as any other citizen. Since, this is not my area of primary interest I have not delved as deeply as you have in the subject. Also as my prime language of communication is English (I am not saying mother tongue,lest I be thrown in the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth by the BBSM) I have not read Konkani as deeply as you have. If you feel that English has eroded the Konkani linguistic base, then that is the natural process of evolution. Survival of the fittest. Any organism or any entity which is not strong and fit enough to survive will perish. If Konkani has lost to English in some ways it has also gained in another way wherein English words have been adopted by Konkani. Should there be puritanism in languages too? Well you don't have to go to the good book for that one. Just take a good look around you and smell the coffee! Why are you such a doubting Thomas that you should question/ doubt my intentions when I made the comment I did? I am prepared to learn from anybody without fear, favour or prejudice.
Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:07:28 +0530 From: Tony de Sa To: "Goa's Premiere Mailing List, Estd 1994" Subject: Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Professor Borges: RESPONSE: I hope this time at least you are serious. Else, please spare the abuses. Thanks. Script and dialect are happy hunting grounds for some people. But no luck here, I'm afraid! Both these words have been in existence simultaneously and for a very very long time. "Mhalgoddo put" is found in the Bible at many places, e.g. Lk. 2:7 - "Ani tinnem aplea mhalgoddea putak zolm dilo." Let us thank the Lord for preserving this term at least in his Word, albeit by dropping the H i.e as "malgoddo".! "Mhalgoddo"?is not exactly the same as "mhalvot". "Mhalvot is used exclusively for the "first-born" whereas "mhalgoddo" means "elder".?Senior persons in a "group" are referred to as "mhalgodde" but never as "mhalvot". The latter term would mean "first-born son" even without "put". But with "mhalgoddo" you must add "put"?just as in "the elder son". For corroboration of this, please see Dr. Olivinho Gomes' "Konkani Manasagangotri - An Anthology of Early Konkani Literature."? In the Glossary at p. 332, you will find?the following: Mhalgoddo = vhoddlo = elder.? Mhalvot = pirayen vhoddlo?= eldest child.? Mhalvotponn = mhalvotachi sthiti = primogeniture. You will also find on p. 251 para 2, that "mhalvot" is used twice but without "put". And this is from "Vonvaleancho Mollo" by Miguel de Almeida sj published in 1658-59. This shows that these words were very much prevalent in Goan Konkani when the Portuguese arrived here,?but have fallen into disuse over the past four centuries. Through the influence of the Portuguese language, "mhalvot" was replaced by "morgado." Some people even believe that "mhalgoddo" is a corruption of the Portuguese "morgado"! This is not an exception.? Hundreds of vocables from the Konkani lexicon have thus been lost. In earlier centuries this erosion was restricted mainly to the cities, with the rural population remaining faithful to the soil. But now, with the spread of English education, the?rate?has increased. Anyone trying to retrieve some of the losses is frowned upon; the words being dubbed imports from Marathi since they are "not intelligible to a large segment of Goan society."?or NITALSOGS. You could ascertain the truth of the above statement by just recalling the Prayers that you learnt in your childhood and checking how many of them are not commonly used by that "segment" today. So, if at all?we are to stem the?tide and retrieve a part of our heritage, we have to begin with little children before they imbibe the foreign equivalents of true Konkani words.?Else, in a short while from now, we shall have added many more words to the NITALSOGS?category. It is not essential that the child's parents must know the?meaning of each of those words beforehand; it is the function of the teacher, not parent, to make the child comprehend. Considering the above, I do not think you are serious when you say, "Let us first standardize." Regards, Sebastian Borges?? WHAT I HAVE TO SAY: Thank you for that very elaborate and erudite reply. As for the Konkani language goes, I am a 'nennar' as far as these intense linguistic studies go. I have sufficient command of the Konkani language to communicate and to go about my business as any other citizen. Since, this is not my area of primary interest I have not delved as deeply as you have in the subject. Also as my prime language of communication (I am not saying mother tongue, lest I be thrown in the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth by the BBSM) I have not read as deeply as you have. If you feel that English has eroded the Konkani linguistic base, then that is the natural process of evolution. Survival of the fittest. Any organism or any entity which is not strong and fit enough to survive will perish. If Konkani has lost to English in some ways it has also gained in another way wherein English words have been adopted by Konkani. Should there be puritanism in languages too? Well you don't have to go to the good book for that one. Just take a good look around you and smell the coffee! Why are you such a doubting Thomas that you should question/ doubt my intentions when I made the comment I did? I am prepared to learn from anybody without fear, favour or prejudice. -- "Tony de Sa" < tonydesa at gmail dot com>
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse
CORRECTION: Also as my prime language of communication (I am not saying mother tongue, lest I be thrown in the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth by the BBSM) I have not read as deeply as you have. SHOULD READ: Also as my prime language of communication *is English* (I am not saying mother tongue, lest I be thrown in the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth by the BBSM) I have not read *Konkani* as deeply as you have. (words added within asterisks) -- "Tony de Sa" < tonydesa at gmail dot com>
Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse
Professor Borges: RESPONSE: I hope this time at least you are serious. Else, please spare the abuses. Thanks. Script and dialect are happy hunting grounds for some people. But no luck here, I'm afraid! Both these words have been in existence simultaneously and for a very very long time. "Mhalgoddo put" is found in the Bible at many places, e.g. Lk. 2:7 - "Ani tinnem aplea mhalgoddea putak zolm dilo." Let us thank the Lord for preserving this term at least in his Word, albeit by dropping the H i.e as "malgoddo".! "Mhalgoddo"?is not exactly the same as "mhalvot". "Mhalvot is used exclusively for the "first-born" whereas "mhalgoddo" means "elder".?Senior persons in a "group" are referred to as "mhalgodde" but never as "mhalvot". The latter term would mean "first-born son" even without "put". But with "mhalgoddo" you must add "put"?just as in "the elder son". For corroboration of this, please see Dr. Olivinho Gomes' "Konkani Manasagangotri - An Anthology of Early Konkani Literature."? In the Glossary at p. 332, you will find?the following: Mhalgoddo = vhoddlo = elder.? Mhalvot = pirayen vhoddlo?= eldest child.? Mhalvotponn = mhalvotachi sthiti = primogeniture. You will also find on p. 251 para 2, that "mhalvot" is used twice but without "put". And this is from "Vonvaleancho Mollo" by Miguel de Almeida sj published in 1658-59. This shows that these words were very much prevalent in Goan Konkani when the Portuguese arrived here,?but have fallen into disuse over the past four centuries. Through the influence of the Portuguese language, "mhalvot" was replaced by "morgado." Some people even believe that "mhalgoddo" is a corruption of the Portuguese "morgado"! This is not an exception.? Hundreds of vocables from the Konkani lexicon have thus been lost. In earlier centuries this erosion was restricted mainly to the cities, with the rural population remaining faithful to the soil. But now, with the spread of English education, the?rate?has increased. Anyone trying to retrieve some of the losses is frowned upon; the words being dubbed imports from Marathi since they are "not intelligible to a large segment of Goan society."?or NITALSOGS. You could ascertain the truth of the above statement by just recalling the Prayers that you learnt in your childhood and checking how many of them are not commonly used by that "segment" today. So, if at all?we are to stem the?tide and retrieve a part of our heritage, we have to begin with little children before they imbibe the foreign equivalents of true Konkani words.?Else, in a short while from now, we shall have added many more words to the NITALSOGS?category. It is not essential that the child's parents must know the?meaning of each of those words beforehand; it is the function of the teacher, not parent, to make the child comprehend. Considering the above, I do not think you are serious when you say, "Let us first standardize." Regards, Sebastian Borges?? WHAT I HAVE TO SAY: Thank you for that very elaborate and erudite reply. As for the Konkani language goes, I am a 'nennar' as far as these intense linguistic studies go. I have sufficient command of the Konkani language to communicate and to go about my business as any other citizen. Since, this is not my area of primary interest I have not delved as deeply as you have in the subject. Also as my prime language of communication (I am not saying mother tongue, lest I be thrown in the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth by the BBSM) I have not read as deeply as you have. If you feel that English has eroded the Konkani linguistic base, then that is the natural process of evolution. Survival of the fittest. Any organism or any entity which is not strong and fit enough to survive will perish. If Konkani has lost to English in some ways it has also gained in another way wherein English words have been adopted by Konkani. Should there be puritanism in languages too? Well you don't have to go to the good book for that one. Just take a good look around you and smell the coffee! Why are you such a doubting Thomas that you should question/ doubt my intentions when I made the comment I did? I am prepared to learn from anybody without fear, favour or prejudice. -- "Tony de Sa" < tonydesa at gmail dot com>
[Goanet] Konkani Verse
Konkani Verse First of all I would like to thank FN for starting this thread on new words and phrases in Konkani and Professor Borges and others for the good and sometimes wired explanations, nothing like enriching ones knowledge. It has made me realize that there are words and phrase that I had never realized existed; even then I don't consider them Greek. Let me be frank in saying I am not a master or an expert on English or Konkani, nor am I ignorant about the two language, to a certain limit I know I can hold my own fort. In school I have learnt both and I am eternally grateful for that. I am sure most will agree that Konkani as a language falls short in more ways than one, the development, if any, has been nearly non existent and that is the reason, why the language has suffered. Whatever the present status of Konkani may be, it is our Mother Tongue and we should love and cherish it and help it to sprout, grow and bloom. As we know Konkani in Goa has two major scripts, one is Devnagri and the other Romi, either way it is Konkani, this is something that we should never ever forget, we may have our own presumptions and limitations to each of the scripts but in the end we should shun prejudices and show objectivity and accept that they are the breath of the same mother, inhaling one and exhaling the other, both keeping the mother alive, stop one and the mother dies. In our fight, on the script we will only delay the development of our language; both should develop and flourish only than Konkani will grow healthy. For the sake of Konkani intellects and experts of both groups should come together and use Devnagri to do away with the short coming of Romi script and likewise use Romi script to do away with the short comings of Devnagri, so that both grow together on the healthy endurance of unit as the fertilizer, though the first step would be giving equal status to both Devnagri and Romi. There is a lot being said about the "saan" and "lhaan" in the last couple of weeks, let me be frank that, what has never been heard before may sound Greek but I am sure we are educated and literate people and to learn and accept anything new or even Greek should not be beyond our capacity and capability. Eagerness to learn new things is the basic attribute of a human being and that is the only reason we have made so much progress in all spheres. Man is hungry for knowledge, are we Goans not ? Poetry is philosophy and a poet interprets it in his own way, sometimes words are used that will not be found in any dictionary or in any context but will convey the message as and how one tries to interpret it, which may or may not be, what the poet interpreted, how can we say for sure what the poet was thinking when he put his pen to it ? There could be different versions may be similar or in contrast. For example The Bible, the different passages are interpreted by different Priests in different ways; some may not even be in sync. A poetry is how one understands and interprets, each human is different we have our own foots prints called the DNA so we should not be surprised or shocked if the interpretation of others differs form ours. In Goa Konkani spoken in the North differs slightly from the South, for example "to see" North say "poi" South say "choi" and the Hindus say "polloi", which is right and which is wrong, who will judge ? Similarly, "to play" North say "xevta" South say "khelta" the Hindus also say "khelta" but to say "play" all three say "khell" so who is right ? There is also some misunderstanding with a few words, "age" is one of them, "idad" is a word frequently use to discuss age, it may not be a Konkani word but none the less used. Avk is another used, has any one heard "mhojea avixant hanvem kednach chintunk nam to maka ghat kortolo mhunn" ! Literary meaning "in my entire life I did not think he or she would turn against me" normal meaning "I never thought he or she would stab me in the back or turn traitor" Now if "avixant" is a Konkani word, I am not sure but I have heard it used a lot by Hindus. It could have been derived from Avk. "Vorsam" is yet another word that is commonly used for age. There is another thing I would like to bring to the notice of Goans, the respect that should be conveyed when referring to our elder and superiors. In Hindi we use "aap" when we refer to our superiors or elders as a sign of respect, normally we say "tu" or "tum", in Konkani too we have "tumkam" or "tumi", both used for plural as well as a sign of respect. Like "Tumi koxe assat" ? Instead of "tum koxo asa ? "Tumkam mhojo pronam". Instead of "Tuka mhojo pronam". Even the English dictionary has accepted some words from other languages, also from Hindi. So how difficult can it be for intellectuals to come together and to a consensus to build a health Konkani ? My humble prayers to Goans please do not disrespect Konkani by saying it is Greek or that Greek is Konkani, if we
Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse - FN
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 Frederick FN Noronha wrote: <> RESPONSE: I fully sympathise with FN's plight. But then the world does not work exactly the way we want it to. So it would do a lot of good to one's health if one gives up the persecution complex; why should I alone be singled out for punishment? In fact there are many out there sailing in the same boat. Let me give an example. My own Primary education was in Portuguese. I attended a private school conducted by a mestre, a very erudite man who, I was told, had left the seminary close to his ordination. In the second standatd (I think) I had a lesson with the title "So manduca quem trabuca" (The o in so has an acute accent). My mestre explained it thus: manduca = jevta; trabuca = vavrota; so manduca quem trabuca - zo konn vavrota toch jevta. Atam, jevta hache khatir anik ek Purtugez utor asa; kitem tem? - janta. -Ani vavrota hache khatir anik ek Purtugez utor sang. - trabalha. - Xabas. Atam so manduca quem trabuca hem dusrea Purtugez utramni sang polleum-ia. - So janta quem trabalha. - Amche bhaxentui hem veglle toren mhonnunk zata: Vavr kor, pott bhor. Atam ek sang. Tum jevta? - Hoi mestre. - Tum vavrak voita? - Na mestre. - Tor tum funkott jevta. - Hoi mestre. - Tum lisanv korta? - Hoi mestre. - Ghorakodde maim sangta tem kam' korta? - Hoi mestre. - Hoch tuzo vavr. Tum funkott jevina. Punn main sanglolem kam' korina zalear mat tum funkott jevta oxem zatolem. Somzolo? - Hoi mestre. This is how I was taught Portuguese. I always claim that although I studied Portuguese, my medium of instruction was Konkani. Wonder how many teachers today take this triuble in our primary schools, Konkani or English; I find that they insist upon the child memorising the words. But, why all this rigmarole, you might ask. There is a method in this madness. After Segundo grau and Primeiro Ano of Portuguese I joined the English High school where I took Portuguese as my second language for the SSc examination. But never in my life have I encountered the two verbs, manduca and trabuca. They are probably the rarest of the rare; but in the second standard, I did not know this fact. Now imagine a couple of Portuguese parentage who were born and brought up in British Africa and came to Portugal only after their marriage. At home they conversein English, and since English is a wider window to the world, they never felt the need to read Portuguese. However they picked up enough Portuguese to communicate with their neighbours. Now came the time to send their son to school. This necessarily to be Portuguese since there is no English school in the neighbourhood. And one day the boy informs he has a new lesson: So manduca quem trabuca. Would his parents be horrified because they have never heard these words? Would they curse the people who write school-books that make a guinea-pig of their seven-year-old child making him understand and study such little-used complex words? Would they complain that their child is made to learn Portuguese at the point of a gun? In fact, they would just ask the child what he has learnt; and the child would tell them what the words mean, because that is what his teacher has just explained, as expected of her. He certainly does not know that these are little-used words and is not awed by them! To him they are just new words like the ones he learns every day. Do give this a thought. Regards. Sebastian Borges.
Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse - Tony
On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 Tony de Sa tonyde...@gmail.com wrote:> RESPONSE: I hope this time at least you are serious. Else, please spare the abuses. Thanks. Script and dialect are happy hunting grounds for some people. But no luck here, I'm afraid! Both these words have been in existence simultaneously and for a very very long time. "Mhalgoddo put" is found in the Bible at many places, e.g. Lk. 2:7 - "Ani tinnem aplea mhalgoddea putak zolm dilo." Let us thank the Lord for preserving this term at least in his Word, albeit by dropping the H i.e as "malgoddo".! "Mhalgoddo" is not exactly the same as "mhalvot". "Mhalvot is used exclusively for the "first-born" whereas "mhalgoddo" means "elder". Senior persons in a "group" are referred to as "mhalgodde" but never as "mhalvot". The latter term would mean "first-born son" even without "put". But with "mhalgoddo" you must add "put" just as in "the elder son". For corroboration of this, please see Dr. Olivinho Gomes' "Konkani Manasagangotri - An Anthology of Early Konkani Literature." In the Glossary at p. 332, you will find the following: Mhalgoddo = vhoddlo = elder. Mhalvot = pirayen vhoddlo = eldest child. Mhalvotponn = mhalvotachi sthiti = primogeniture. You will also find on p. 251 para 2, that "mhalvot" is used twice but without "put". And this is from "Vonvaleancho Mollo" by Miguel de Almeida sj published in 1658-59. This shows that these words were very much prevalent in Goan Konkani when the Portuguese arrived here, but have fallen into disuse over the past four centuries. Through the influence of the Portuguese language, "mhalvot" was replaced by "morgado." Some people even believe that "mhalgoddo" is a corruption of the Portuguese "morgado"! This is not an exception. Hundreds of vocables from the Konkani lexicon have thus been lost. In earlier centuries this erosion was restricted mainly to the cities, with the rural population remaining faithful to the soil. But now, with the spread of English education, the rate has increased. Anyone trying to retrieve some of the losses is frowned upon; the words being dubbed imports from Marathi since they are "not intelligible to a large segment of Goan society." or NITALSOGS. You could ascertain the truth of the above statement by just recalling the Prayers that you learnt in your childhood and checking how many of them are not commonly used by that "segment" today. So, if at all we are to stem the tide and retrieve a part of our heritage, we have to begin with little children before they imbibe the foreign equivalents of true Konkani words. Else, in a short while from now, we shall have added many more words to the NITALSOGS category. It is not essential that the child's parents must know the meaning of each of those words beforehand; it is the function of the teacher, not parent, to make the child comprehend. Considering the above, I do not think you are serious when you say, "Let us first standardize." Regards, Sebastian Borges --
Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse
Guys, you are missing my point! While you go about standardising, do you have to make a guinea pig of my seven-year-old who is supposed to understand and study all these little used words! Think of my plight -- I have to teach him too (and learn myself) just because some mineowners/freedom fighters quote the Unesco supposed comment in favour of "mother tongue education" (and the Official Language Act somehow says "Konkani means Konkani in the Devanagari script"). I have no animosity towards Konkani or any other language. All languages deserve to be promoted; but that won't be done with a gun pointed at anyone's head! FN FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm) #784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org On 18 July 2011 15:03, Tony de Sa wrote: > Sebastian: >to my grandmother I was her 'mhalvot natu' > > COMMENT: In the Konkani used in the Catholic Church gospels and readings, I > have heard the expression 'mhalgodo put' with the appropriate translation. I > think the reference was to Isaac the son of Abraham. > > Is mhalgodo the same as mhalvot? Or is it the difference in the dialect that > causes such a variance? > > The main problem here is that the Konkani used in the verse is not > intelligible to a large segment of Goan society! > > Let us first standardize.
Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse
Sebastian: >to my grandmother I was her 'mhalvot natu' COMMENT: In the Konkani used in the Catholic Church gospels and readings, I have heard the expression 'mhalgodo put' with the appropriate translation. I think the reference was to Isaac the son of Abraham. Is mhalgodo the same as mhalvot? Or is it the difference in the dialect that causes such a variance? The main problem here is that the Konkani used in the verse is not intelligible to a large segment of Goan society! Let us first standardize. -- "Tony de Sa" < tonydesa at gmail dot com>
Re: [Goanet] Konkani Verse
Sebastian: Dear Eugene, Many thanks for the enlightening discourse on the English idiom. Although I am familiar with the idiom, much of what you have provided was not within my knowledge. Obliged for that. To my humble knowledge, (truncated message) If Tony went off the rails, the baby-doctor went into orbit with his puerile, nay infantile, logic as usual. Better ignore the incorrigible. Mog asum. Sebastian Borges On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 Eugene Correia http://gmane.org/get-address.php?address=eugene.correia%2dRe5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w%40public.gmane.org>> wrote: <
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse
Dear Eugene, Many thanks for the enlightening discourse on the English idiom. Although I am familiar with the idiom, much of what you have provided was not within my knowledge. Obliged for that. To my humble knowledge, "this is all Greek to me" is an idiomatic way of saying "I dot understand this at all" or, to use other idioms, "this has gone over my head" / "I cannot make head or tail of this". And you presume this is what Tony meant. But please reread Tony's original sentence: "Konkani? Looks more like Greek to me. I think I have to re enroll for Std II! :/". Do you still hold the same opinion? Does "looks more like Greek to me" fit the idiom format? I don't think so. To me, his statement it means: "This is not Konkani. It appears as if it were Greek. If this is really Konkani, then I should go back to school to learn it!" I presumed he could not understand a part or the whole of the poem, especially because there were some transliteration errors in the the form it was originally posted in, which garbled the meaning somewhat. Hence my request to Tony. But what was Tony's response? In stead of complying with my request, he went completely off the rails with, "While Sebastian Borges may 'claim' to be an expert in Konkani (a view certainly not supported by a faction of Konkani cognoscenti), I personally, have my doubts about his knowledge of the English language as demonstrated by his remark above!" Is this warranted? Even assuming I have made the claim that he suspects I have, does it matter to the issue at hand? Did I give my opinion on the poem? If my translation was faulty, he could have pointed out the errors. And what has my knowledge of the ENGLISH language got to do with getting the meaning of a KONKANI poem? I would still request Tony to let us know exactly what it was that he could not understand in the poem. If Tony went off the rails, the baby-doctor went into orbit with his puerile, nay infantile, logic as usual. Better ignore the incorrigible. Mog asum. Sebastian Borges On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 Eugene Correia wrote: <>
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse
On 16 July 2011 18:28, Eugene Correia wrote: > I think the debate over this (or is it "in this"?) has gone off > tanget. Tony obviously used an English idiom (explanation below from > Wikipedia) and Borges seemingly took Tony's words literally. Unless, > Borges explains that he understood the idiom. I think Tony was > outright wrong in questioning Borges's expertise on the language. > However, no one in Goa or elsewhere is the last word on Konkani. > For the doctor from Bahamas to jump into this fray with his usual > cockeyed view and also hit Borges below the belt for the latter's > support for Devnagiri was uncalled for. But the good doctor dishes out > his own brand of medicine for all the ills that goanetters suffer on > this forum (ha, ha) > .I hope I had the last word... chapter closed :-) > > Eugene > --- > to me > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > That's Greek to me or It's (all) Greek to me is an idiom/dead metaphor > in English, claiming that an expression is incomprehensible, either > due to complexity or imprecision.. RESPONSE: Here's one to all of you...it's short and sweet, I do hope you all enjoy it! Lesley Gore - Fools Rush In (Where Angels Fear To Tread) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1HOYUj3W_s -- DEV BOREM KORUM Gabe Menezes.
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse
I think the debate over this (or is it "in this"?) has gone off
tanget. Tony obviously used an English idiom (explanation below from
Wikipedia) and Borges seemingly took Tony's words literally. Unless,
Borges explains that he understood the idiom. I think Tony was
outright wrong in questioning Borges's expertise on the language.
However, no one in Goa or elsewhere is the last word on Konkani.
For the doctor from Bahamas to jump into this fray with his usual
cockeyed view and also hit Borges below the belt for the latter's
support for Devnagiri was uncalled for. But the good doctor dishes out
his own brand of medicine for all the ills that goanetters suffer on
this forum (ha, ha)
.I hope I had the last word... chapter closed :-)
Eugene
---
to me
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's Greek to me or It's (all) Greek to me is an idiom/dead metaphor
in English, claiming that an expression is incomprehensible, either
due to complexity or imprecision. The expression may be used with
respect to verbal expressions with excessive jargon of dialect,
mathematics, or science. The metaphor makes reference to the Greek
language and the Greek alphabet (either ancient or modern).
Contents
[hide]
1 Origins
2 Variations
2.1 In other languages
3 Popular Use
4 See also
5 References
6 External links
[edit] Origins
It may have been a direct translation of a similar phrase in Latin:
"Graecum est; non legitur" ("it is Greek, [therefore] it cannot be
read"). This phrase was increasingly used by monk scribes in the
Middle Ages, as knowledge of the Greek alphabet and language was
dwindling among those who were copying manuscripts in monastic
libraries.
The usage of the metaphor in English traces back to early modern
times, particularly from its adoption in Shakespeare's play Julius
Caesar, as spoken by Servilius Casca to Cassius after a festival in
which Caesar was offered a crown:
CASSIUS: Did Cicero say any thing?
CASCA: Ay, he spoke Greek.
CASSIUS: To what effect?
CASCA: Nay, an I tell you that, I'll ne'er look you i' the face again:
but those that understood him smiled at one another and shook their
heads; but, for mine own part, it was Greek to me. I could tell you
more news too: Marullus and Flavius, for pulling scarfs off Caesar's
images, are put to silence. Fare you well. There was more foolery yet,
if I could remember it.
(William Shakespeare, The Tragedy of Julius Caesar (1599))
Here, Casca's literal ignorance of Greek is the source of the phrase,
using its common meaning to play on the uncertainty among the
conspirators about Cicero's attitude to Caesar's increasingly regal
behaviour. Shakespeare was not the only author to use the expression.
It is also adapted by another playwright of the time, Thomas Dekker in
his play Patient Grissel (1599): "I’ll be sworn he knows not so much
as one character of the tongue. Why, then it’s Greek to him".
The expression is almost exclusively used with reference to the
speaker (generally "Greek to me"); Dekker's "Greek to him" is rare.
Another meaning attributed to the phrase implies that "it's all Greek
to me" could be seen as a wordplay for: "everything is Greek for
me"[3].
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse...
Dear FN You asked for an English translation of the Poem; I presumed it was a genuine request, without a hidden agenda. I suspected a couple of errors in your transliteration; so I rang up a niece whose daughter was in std. II last year, hoping that she would still have the book. She did. So I asked her to read the poem over the phone. In the meantime, someone said that it sounded like Greek. So I provided the English meaning of every word therein. I wanted to know which were the words that sounded like Greek; the info would at least add to my knowledge. Hence I posed the question, accordingly. And what do I get? Did I ever claim to be an expert in anything? If yes, could these worthies please point to the locus where I said so? And, pray, what has my knowledge of Konkani and English (or lack of it) got to do with this matter? The question marks are not mine. Somehow they just appear when a matter is uploaded on Goanet; they may stand for space, hyphen or even an accented letter. This should be familiar to anyone who reads the Goanet posts. I do not see what is so complex in that poem that it would be too much for a six-year old to comprehend. Aren't Our Father and Hail Mary etc. in Konkani more complex than this? Aren't these prayers taught to six-year olds at Sunday school, assuming that the child has not already learnt them at home much earlier? Sebastian Borges On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 : Frederick FN Noronha wrote: << But, don't you think it's more than a bit illogical to attempt teaching something so complex, that too to a six-year-old, and whose parents (in most cases) don't have a clue as to what's going on? I'm talking as a parent here, who's been through it! And certainly doesn't like the idea of "promoting regional languages" with a gun pointed to my head. FN "J. Colaco < jc>" wrote: [1] Tony de Sa wrote: Konkani? Looks more like Greek to me. [2] Sebastian Borges wrote: I request Tony to point out the Greek?in this? [3] Tony de Sa wrote again: While Sebastian Borges may 'claim' to be an expert in Konkani (a view certainly not supported by a faction of Konkani cognoscenti), I personally, have my doubts about his knowledge of the English language as demonstrated by his remark above! COMMENT: Tony! Tony! Tony! Why have you just taken off all very Gulabi on Prof Borges? All he did was to ask you to solve a puzzle. I do not know that those '? ?' mean but could you not find the Greek in Prof Borges' post. Here, let me help you out. Look out for the CAPS Prof Borges: I request Tony to point out the GREEK in this. But then again, it all depends on what Prof Borges meant by "in this". I could understand IF the kon_fusao had occurred with me, I am a Devnagri ONLY for Marathi and a Devnagri Also for Konkani. These Devnagri Only for Konkani chaps need some serious 'help' when it comes to Romi-English. jc Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse...
Thanks for that, Prof Borges! But, don't you think it's more than a bit illogical to attempt teaching something so complex, that too to a six-year-old, and whose parents (in most cases) don't have a clue as to what's going on? I'm talking as a parent here, who's been through it! And certainly doesn't like the idea of "promoting regional languages" with a gun pointed to my head. FN FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm) #784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India http://fn.goa-india.org http://goa1556.goa-india.org On 15 July 2011 15:02, Sebastian Borges wrote: > Oh God! We little children humbly bow before You. We pray that we learn > good behaviour and adopt proper etiquette, oh God! Please bestow upon us the > strength for achieving success in studies, oh God! Please grant that our > parents and teachers may live happily in your divine grace, oh God! Please > give us peace, happiness and long life, oh God!" > > Hope this meets FN's requirements. > > Sebastian Borges >
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse..
[1] Tony de Sa wrote: Konkani? Looks more like Greek to me. [2] Sebastian Borges wrote: I request Tony to point out the Greek?in this? [3] Tony de Sa wrote again: While Sebastian Borges may 'claim' to be an expert in Konkani (a view certainly not supported by a faction of Konkani cognoscenti), I personally, have my doubts about his knowledge of the English language as demonstrated by his remark above! COMMENT: Tony! Tony! Tony! Why have you just taken off all very Gulabi on Prof Borges? All he did was to ask you to solve a puzzle. I do not know that those '? ?' mean but could you not find the Greek in Prof Borges' post. Here, let me help you out. Look out for the CAPS Prof Borges: I request Tony to point out the GREEK in this. But then again, it all depends on what Prof Borges meant by "in this". I could understand IF the kon_fusao had occurred with me, I am a Devnagri ONLY for Marathi and a Devnagri Also for Konkani. These Devnagri Only for Konkani chaps need some serious 'help' when it comes to Romi-English. jc
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse..
From: Sebastian Borges On Thu, 14 Jul 2011? Tony de Sa wrote: <> (truncated) I request Tony to point out the Greek?in this. ? COMMENT: While Sebastian Borges may 'claim' to be an expert in Konkani (a view certainly not supported by a faction of Konkani cognoscenti), I personally, have my doubts about his knowledge of the English language as demonstrated by his remark above! -- "Tony de Sa" < tonydesa at gmail dot com>
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse...
Hi Fred, I had to struggle to find meaning in this prayer poem... I find it quite difficult... Of course, my knowledge of Konkani/Konknni is limited... but I certainly miss rhyme, rhythm, grammar... syntax. Perhaps that one way to create poetry! Noman tuka Konkani. *Noman* > > Saan aami (*we*) saan deva (*god*)... (*but what is "saan"?*) > Kortat tuka noman deva (*We adore/hail you, lord*) > Vechnuk (election? ... It could be "vagnnuk" i.e. deeds/behaviour) aani > dekh bori (*and good example*) > Shikap aani reet khori (*Education and proper manners*) > > Shikpak dee baal jait deva (*Give us strength and success/victory in our studies*) > Avoi bapui gurujan amche (*Our parents are out teachers*) > Tuje sasayen khoshen ravche (*Let us live in your grace*) > shanti di sukh, piray deva (*Lord, gives us happiness and long life*) 2011/7/13 Frederick FN Noronha * फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا < fredericknoron...@gmail.com> > Please could someone render this second standard Konkani poem into > English? Thanks, FN > * > *
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse...
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 Tony de Sa wrote: <> Here is the "correct" rendering of the poem in (modern) Romi: Noman San ami san Deva Kortat tuka noman Deva Vagnnuk ami dekh bori Xikop ani rit khori Xikpak di boll zoit Deva Avoi bapui gurujon amche Tuje sasayen khoxien ravche Xanti di sukh, piray Deva Meanings: noman = obeisance. Also a respectful greeting as in the prayer 'Noman Morie'. san = small in age. ami = we.Deva = oh God! kortat = make, do. tuka = to you. vagnnuk = behaviour, comportment. dekh = example, lesson, discipline. bori = good. xikop = study, learning. rit = etiquette, habit. khori = true, genuine. xikpak = to study. di = give. boll = strength. zoit = success, victory. avoi = mother. bapui = father. avoi-bapui = parents. gurujon = teachers. amche = our. tuje = your. sasayen = (in) divine grace. khoxien = happily. ravche - may live. xanti = peace. sukh = happiness. piray = age, long life. I request Tony to point out the Greek in this. In plain English, the meaning of the poem would be: "Our humble obeisance! Oh God! We little children humbly bow before You. We pray that we learn good behaviour and adopt proper etiquette, oh God! Please bestow upon us the strength for achieving success in studies, oh God! Please grant that our parents and teachers may live happily in your divine grace, oh God! Please give us peace, happiness and long life, oh God!" Hope this meets FN's requirements. Sebastian Borges Frederick FN Noronha fredericknoron...@gmail.com had written: Please could someone render this second standard Konkani poem into English? Thanks, FN Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Konkani verse...
From: Frederick FN Noronha fredericknoron...@gmail.com Please could someone render this second standard Konkani poem into English? Thanks, FN Noman Saan aami saan deva Kortat tuka noman deva Vechnuk aani dekh bori Shikap aani reet khori Shikpak dee baal jait deva Avoi bapui gurujan amche Tuje sasayen khoshen ravche shanti di sukh, piray deva Konkani? Looks more like Greek to me. I think I have to re enroll for Std II! :/ -- "Tony de Sa" < tonydesa at gmail dot com>
[Goanet] Konkani verse...
Please could someone render this second standard Konkani poem into English? Thanks, FN Noman Saan aami saan deva Kortat tuka noman deva Vechnuk aani dekh bori Shikap aani reet khori Shikpak dee baal jait deva Avoi bapui gurujan amche Tuje sasayen khoshen ravche shanti di sukh, piray deva
