Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull (Dalit Christians)
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130911/jsp/opinion/story_17335910.jsp#.UjAbLj9sikQ -- The more the merrier The movement to get Dalit Christians into the Scheduled Castes net has gained momentum. V. Kumara Swamy looks at both sides of the debate If Hindu Dalits can get the manifold advantages of affirmative action, so should Christian Dalits. That demand has been around for years, despite the fact that Christianity is not castebased and there are no Dalits in the community. The movement to get Dalit Christians ( Dalits who converted to Christianity) under the Scheduled Caste umbrella got a fresh impetus recently when Tamil Nadu chief minister J. Jayalalithaa wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, urging the Centre to include Dalit Christians in the list of Scheduled Castes and bring them on a par with Dalit Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists. The social tensions over the status of unbalanced growth between Hindu Scheduled Castes and Christian converts have aggravated over time and a sense of alienation among the minority communities has further deepened. I wish to emphasise that the matter cannot brook any further delay, she said in the letter. But that is easier said than done. It requires a constitutional amendment and deletion of the third paragraph of the Constitution ( Scheduled Caste) Order 1950, otherwise known as Presidential Order, which states that no person who professes a religion different from Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism shall be deemed to be a member of a Scheduled Caste. The Supreme Court is also hearing a case challenging this provision of the Presidential Order. In 2008 the apex court had given the central government eight weeks to take a stand on the issue of reservation. But the government is yet to file its reply. Jayalalithaa has demanded the filing of a counter affidavit by the Centre in support of the petitioners. Dalit Muslims are also a party to the case. Those in favour of reservation for Dalit Christians say that they face the same kind of discrimination as Dalit Hindus do. Dalit Hindu and Christian children go through the same kind of discrimination in society. But while a Hindu Dalit has greater chances of improving his life, a Dalit Christian will continue to suffer, says Franklin Caesar Thomas, Supreme Court advocate and one of the petitioners in the case. According to Census figures, Christians constitute 2.3 per cent of the population in India, and some estimates say that 70 per cent of them are Dalit converts. But there is considerable opposition to the move to bring Christian Dalits under the Scheduled Castes. The concept of caste- based discrimination is not there in Christianity. Then how can there be reservation for Christians? asks Pon Radhakrishnan, BJP state president, Tamil Nadu. Leaders of the Christian community admit that casteism has no place in their religion. But you cannot ignore social realities, argues Father Z. Devasagayaraj, secretary, Office for SC/ BC, Catholic Bishops' Conference of India ( CBCI), Delhi. Look at the US. Though the African- Americans have been following Christianity for ages, they were still discriminated against. Even the Commission for Minority Religion and Linguistic Minority, also known as the Justice Ranganath Mishra Commission, had said in its 2007 report that the Presidential Order of 1950 was unconstitutional. It further stated that though Christianity and Islam did not recognise caste system or untouchability, the ground reality in India was different. Persons of Scheduled Caste origin who converted to Christianity/ Islam continue to be subjected to disabilities, including untouchability associated with caste and occupation, the commission noted. Others argue that if Dalit Sikhs and Buddhists could have been brought into the Scheduled Caste fold, there's no reason why Christians and Muslims shouldn't be. Mushtaq Ahmed, a Supreme Court advocate who is fighting on behalf of Dalit Muslims, points out that when the Presidential Order was promulgated in 1950, Dalit Sikhs and Buddhists were not recognised as Scheduled Castes. Sikhs were included in 1956 and Buddhists in 1990. S ome experts say that the amendments to include Sikhs and Buddhists were supported by Explanation II of Article 25 of the Constitution of India, which reads, In sub- clause ( b), the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jain or Buddhist religions, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly. Another argument against reservation is that Dalit Christians have already been recognised as Other Backward Classes ( OBCs) in several states and are getting the benefits. But the Dalit Christians are leaving no stone unturned to bolster their case. Some say that not recognising them as Scheduled Castes is a colonial hangover. It was way back in 1935 that India's lowest castes were known as untouchables or depressed classes and recognised as
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
In Message: 2 - Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 18:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Mervyn Lobo mervynal...@yahoo.ca wrote: My question, and this is to any brave heart here, is: Does a person still retain his/her caste when s/he becomes an atheist? ? Or does one remain a cultural Hindu forever. Dear Mervyn, One does not need to be a brave heart to answer your question.The answer is a simple YES. Culturally Hinduism, or at any rate what we were before conversion, maybe a tribe or a caste or another religion like Buddhism or Jainism or Islam all of which had a presence in Goa at some time or another, is part of our cultural make-up. Some may be more affected by it and for others it may be something that is not quite in the foreground of one's consciousness, but deep down somewhere that Hinduness or Muslimness or whatever one's identity was prior to conversion is still part of our cultural make up. Just as one is a Goan and Indian despite the fact that one's parents had migrated to East Africa many decades ago and despite the fact that one knows very little about what Goa is or was now or in the past.. This is just as what happens when one also inherits a Catholic Christian identity which sticks to one despite the fact that one has long ago become an agnostic. OK I'm done. And I don't think that I did a particularly brave thing. Don't you think so Mervyn? Augusto -- Augusto Pinto 40, Novo Portugal Moira, Bardez Goa, India E pinto...@gmail.com P 0832-2470336 M 9881126350
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Dear Merwyn, I know that in order to become a Christian one gets him/herself baptized. In order to become a Hindu too one goes through certain ceremonies. (I don’t know what they are, but have read that people who have reconverted to Hinduism have gone through some such ceremonies.) So, how does one become an Atheist? Does one perform/undergo certain ceremonies? Or does one just stop performing/participating in some activities which s/he did as a Catholic/Hindu/ .? Does eschewing such activities automatically make one an Atheist? Else, how does your neighbour know that you have converted to Atheism? We must note that caste discrimination (positive or negative) is performed on you by others who must necessarily know your caste. To my mind, Casteism, like Atheism, is an attitude of the mind. My reading is that the caste system might have originated/evolved as an adjunct of Hinduism, but caste discrimination, or casteism, is not a necessary part of the Hindu faith; one may devoutly practice the Hindu religion without being a casteist and one may renounce the Hindu faith yet retaining the casteism. And I, a Catholic of Goan parentage (born and brought up outside Goa and blissfully oblivious of the practice of Christianity in my parents' parish in Goa) but settled abroad proudly declare: I absolutely deplore the mention and use of The Hindu Caste System wrt Christianity, be it for subjugation OR for the purpose of gaining special privileges by way of Reservations. [Perhaps this was the stance adopted by the Christian members of the Constituent Assembly too.] Denying admission into the major confraria to a dalit is certainly not subjugation, but that admission, when granted, would certainly be a special privilege to a dalit since this has never been available to him. Now, would you say that, with my stance, I am tacitly supporting my father's relatives who are denying that admission to a dalit? It is not that the Vatican is unaware of the type of Christianity that is being practised by the Catholic Church in India. Please see: http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/dclm%20memorandum.htm http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/dalitaccusation.htm These are nearly 14 years old; what steps has the Vatican taken, in the meanwhile, to correct the situation and with what success? Your Greek and Egyptian might debate the issue to their heart's content, and until the cows come home; but would this bring any solace to the slave? Please give it a thought. What is meant by a cultural Hindu? Is the culture of an Ayyangar identical with that of a Rajput, both being Hindu? Sebastian Borges On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 Mervyn Lobo mervynal...@yahoo.ca wrote: Sebastian Borges, While caste is a truly cruel practice, one that affects (whether they admit it or not) all those in India, sitting here in Toronto I can only view what you have written above in amazement. It is almost like time travel. It is like I have been transported back 400 years. Reading the above is also like reading a debate between an ancient Greek and an ancient Egyptian on who treated their slaves better. It is only of academic interest to the reader. To the person on the receiving end though, slave treatment, or in this case, near slave treatment is terrifying.? My question, and this is to any brave heart here, is: Does a person still retain his/her caste when s/he becomes an atheist? ? Or does one remain a cultural Hindu forever. Mervyn .. Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull II
Sebastian Borges wrote: To my mind, Casteism, like Atheism, is an attitude of the mind. Sebastian Borges, The way I see it, to be an atheist one has to make tough decisions and jettison all that has been fed since s/he was born. A believer in the cast system can only remain so if s/he does not have the capacity to question basic injustices. Your Greek and Egyptian might debate the issue to their heart's content, and until the cows come home; but would this bring any solace to the slave? Please give it a thought. Exactly my point. Freedom for the 'untouchable' or slave is not going to come from religion. The religious are the ones who propagate this belief. Caste discrimination will only disappear when in becomes illegal to do so i.e. the secular state has to tackle the discrimination issue. Mervyn
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
augusto pinto wrote: Some may be more affected by it and for others it may be something that is not quite in the foreground of one's consciousness, but deep down somewhere that Hinduness or Muslimness or whatever one's identity was prior to conversion is still part of our cultural make up. Just as one is a Goan and Indian despite the fact that one's parents had migrated to East Africa many decades ago and despite the fact that one knows very little about what Goa is or was now or in the past.. This is just as what happens when one also inherits a Catholic Christian identity which sticks to one despite the fact that one has long ago become an agnostic. OK I'm done. And I don't think that I did a particularly brave thing. Don't you think so Mervyn? Augusto, I actually like this explanation of yours. My forefathers moved to Tanzania not last century, but the century before i.e. in the 1870's. Even so, they retained their identity as Goans and kept most of the customs. The bizarre customs they er, casted off. Into the trash can went caste and the dowry system, among others. This becomes easy to do when you have a good education, which normally lets you see the light. A good secular education will also make a person question the need for religion or a belief in an all powerful god. The scientific evidence available today makes it nearly impossible for any person who reads the same to believe in the concept of a 'creator' and the devil. But you are right, the religious and cultural exposure one grew up with, will remain an important part of us even when we chose to jettison the absurd. As for the brave thing, be prepared for the religious fanatics to now start attacking you just because you do not think exactly like them. Mervyn
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Sebastian Borges wrote: Under the article by Fr. Izzo, I found the following comment by one Fr. Iruthayaraj Thusnevish: I am a dalit catholic priest here in south India. Whatever has been said about dalit in this article is true. I am myself going through such painful situations as a priest. So much so I have started a separate church called DALIT CATHOLIC CHURCH to work only for the betterment of dalits. Presently I am running a home for the aged, providing educational help to poor dalit students, empowering dalit women with tailoring learning and free sewing machines and planning to do many more programs besides saying mass and prayers only for dalits. . This is an unfortunate trend; the Catholic Church is disintegrating in South India as a result of caste feuds. This is buttressed by another fact: In the backdrop of the police firing cited above, a thousand Dalit Christians officially got reconverted into Hinduism. Sebastian Borges, While caste is a truly cruel practice, one that affects (whether they admit it or not) all those in India, sitting here in Toronto I can only view what you have written above in amazement. It is almost like time travel. It is like I have been transported back 400 years. Reading the above is also like reading a debate between an ancient Greek and an ancient Egyptian on who treated their slaves better. It is only of academic interest to the reader. To the person on the receiving end though, slave treatment, or in this case, near slave treatment is terrifying. My question, and this is to any brave heart here, is: Does a person still retain his/her caste when s/he becomes an atheist? Or does one remain a cultural Hindu forever. Mervyn
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Dear Marshall, I must thank you for your intervention. This encounter has widened my horizons. I have come to realise that the abomination of caste as practised by Goan Catholics is nothing compared to the tribulations suffered by their counterparts in Southern India. These are some of the illustrative stories that have come to my notice: (1 (1) On 9th March, 2008, two Christians died and 40 more were wounded in police firing during clashes between Dalit Catholics and upper caste Catholics in the diocese of Pondicherry-Cuddalore (Tamil Nadu). Three months earlier, Dalits from St Jabamalais Annai Church in Earyur built another church dedicated to Saghaya Madha (Our Lady of perpetual Help) and sought to have it erected as a separate parish with its own priest. In response some 500 upper caste Christians went on a rampage on Sunday, attacking Dalits and torching over 30 huts. Police were pelted with stones and were thus forcedto open fire on the aggressors. Fr G Cosmon Arokiaraj, secretary to the Commission for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India said, For years Dalits have been discriminated within the Church itself. They cannot sit with upper caste members in the same church; they are buried in separate cemeteries; they cannot use the same roads as upper caste people. When the mother of a Dalit priest died in the 1990s the upper caste did not allow the funeral procession to use the main road; even the bishop failed to bring about a compromise. Pl. see at: http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=enart=11726 (2) The biennial report submitted by the Commission for Scheduled Castes/Tribes and Backward Classes of the Catholic Bishop's Conference of India at the CBCI Annual General Body meeting in 2000 at Chennai, says Dalit Christians, forming the majority in the Christian community, suffer humiliation, discrimination and socio-educational disabilities even after conversion due to the traditional practice of untouchability in the Church and in society. (3) Father K Amal, a catholic priest and the Head of Human Rights Cell at the Indian Social Institute, Bangalore, says Although Christianity in principle does not have caste, the truth is different. There is a huge resistance from the upper caste members of the church when it comes to treating Dalit Christians as equals, or sharing power in the Church's hierarchy with them. And a handful of people like me who favour it are not welcomed at all. (4) In 1994 a church had to be closed at K K Pudur near Chengalpattu district of Tamilnadu following clashes between Dalit Christians and Reddy Catholics. (5) In 1999 a Dalit Christian woman Jeyaseliammal's funeral was not allowed to be held at the church in Eraiyur of Trichy district in Tamilnadu by the Vanniyar Christians of the region. (6) In the year 2000, Jnanaprakash, a Dalit Christian from Hassan district in Karnataka, was allegedly murdered following a fight with an upper caste member. His family members say that the police did not even register a case. Pl. see at: http://www.indiatogether.org/2006/oct/soc-dalitsc.htm If this is their plight in this enlightened twenty-first century, one shudders to think about the situation extant in the 1940s when the Constituent Assembly was debating such issues. Among the Christian members, Fr. Jerome ( being from Madras) was certainly aware of all this and therefore should have striven to ameliorate the lot of these brethren in Christ, instead of sticking to the *theory* that Christianity does not recognise castes. The Catholic dalits are not enjoying the theory, they suffer the reality! But he did nothing of the sort, unlike some others who went out of their way to air the sufferings of their constituents like Mr. Jaipal Singh who, on 27th August 1947, said, .. Sir, a good deal has been said by my friends, the Scheduled Castes leaders in gratitude in regard to the reservation that has been made for appointments. Only a few days ago the Government of India made announcement that a certain policy would be followed so that the scheduled castes would find a place in the central Government. I deeply regret that the most needy, the most deserving group of Adibasis has been completely left out of the picture. No such intervention is noticed from any of the Christian members. Contrary to my earlier misconception (which prompted you to intervene), it was not so much the influence as the acquiescence of the Christian members which resulted in the exclusion of Christian dalits in the Order of 1950, issued in pursuant to Article 341(1). Because this handicap stems from the Act of 1935 and the Order of 1936. This is what they say: The Act: First Schedule, on p. 217: 26-1 an Indian Christian means a person who professes any form of the Christian religion and is not a European or an Anglo-Indian ; the scheduled castes means such castes, races or tribes or
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Replying to the following, Marshall Mendonza wrote: Mervyn Lobo: There is no casteism in the Bible. Caste, in Indian Christianity, is a purely Hindu hangover. Anyone who practices it, cannot be a follower of Christ. Marshall Mendonza's Response: I knew an intelligent person like you would have understood the message. Only two corrections need to be made in your above response- one, there is no caste in Christianity ( the Bible is the Holy Book) and two, caste is a hangover only in certain SECTIONS of Indian Christians. I would not make a blanket statement. I have never experienced or encountered casteism ever in Poona where I grew up and now in Bombay where I live. I guess it is unique only in certain places. Your last sentence is on the dot. Marshall, I think we are in agreement. 1) If you are claiming that the Bible has no caste in it, I will agree with you. 2) If you are claiming that certain sections of Indian Christians practice casteism, I will agree with you too. 3) We definitely are in agreement that one has not understood the message, and hence cannot be a follower of Christ if s/he practices casteism. Mervyn
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
On 2 Sep 2013 J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: Having lived and studied in Poona, I can say that I KNOW about Poona. I can safely state that I did NOT know about caste among the Poona Goan Catholics. I agree absolutely with Marshall. I am sure that Marshall will agree with me that our school St. Vincents remains the best. We did not even bother about the religion of our classmates. All that IMHO started when the SS and BJP used religion to push their political agenda; similar to the MGP Of course, I cannot comment about the 16th century. I was not around at that time. jc My Questions to jc: 1. Have you ever lived in Velim, Goa? 2. Have you attended the Velim church on a feast day? Did you observe the short procession on 3rd December (Feast of St. Francis Xavier) and/or the long procession on 8th December (Feast of Immaculate Conception), the Santos Passos on Palm Sunday and Good Friday? Did you notice that there are two Confrarias in the parish with the vestments (opa-mursa) in red-and-white (subaltern) and all-red (major)? 3. Did you know that only a chardo is eligible to be a member of the major confraria and only a non-chardo (sudir, kunbi, mhar) can become a member of the subaltern confraria? 4. Do you know that for the last few years the parish priests have been trying to demolish this caste barrier between the confrarias, but the Carambolim zonkars (your clan) are opposing the move? 5. Do you know that a couple of years ago, during St. Francis Xavier Novena, after the preacher tried to explain to the congregation the incompatibility of castes with Catholicism and advocated the opening of membership of both the confrarias to all the parishioners, a Carambolim zonkar rushed to assault the priest? 6. In spite of all this, would you still refuse to admit that casteism is practised in the Catholic church itself, at least in Velim? 7. Would you still say that you have not seen any casteism in the village of Velim? Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Once again, I apologize for not being able to do anything about gratuitous rhetoric in posts like the one appended below. But I am happy to provide further evidence for the following points of interest to me, that contradict all of the speculations and insinuations made by the poster below about exclusion of Dalit Christians in the Scheduled Castes list drawn in the Presidential Order of 1950: 1. That Scheduled Castes included only Hindus, ever since this term was first introduced in the Government of India Act of 1935 in place of Depressed Classes, and elaborated in the Scheduled Castes Order of 1936. Please read the following documents: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1935/2/pdfs/ukpga_19350002_en.pdf http://www.anagrasarkalyan.gov.in/compendium/part-1_page9-24.pdf Please read the following original article: Scheduled Caste Policy in India: History, Problems, Prospects Author(s): Lelah Dushkin Source: Asian Survey, Vol. 7, No. 9 (Sep., 1967), pp. 626-636 Published by: University of California Press Here is a quote: QUOTE The term Scheduled Castes is a legal designation. It was adopted in 1935, when the British listed the lowest-ranking Hindu castes in a Schedule appended to the Government of India Act for purposes of statutory safeguards and other benefits. UNQUOTE 2. That Christians were explicitly excluded from the Scheduled Castes list in the Scheduled Castes Order of 1936 by the British government of India. Please see: http://www.anagrasarkalyan.gov.in/compendium/part-1_page9-24.pdf Here is a quote: QUOTE (a) No Indian Christian shall be deemed to be a member of a Scheduled Caste UNQUOTE 3. That Scheduled Castes being integral to the Hindu community was also the position of Mahatma Gandhi. Please read the following original article: Constituent Assembly Debates and Minority Rights Author(s): Rochana Bajpai Source: Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 35, No. 21/22 (May 27 - Jun. 2, 2000), pp. 1837-1845 Published by: Economic and Political Weekly Here is a quote: QUOTE Gandhi vigorously opposed proposals to the effect that the scheduled castes be treated as an entity distinct from the Hindu community from the point of view of representation, most notably in the case of the Communal Award of 1932, which granted scheduled castes separate electorates. UNQUOTE 4. That the Presidential Scheduled Castes Order of 1950 simply followed the precedent of the Scheduled Castes Order of 1936. It changed nothing. The status of Dalit Christians was the same before as after its promulgation. Please read these articles: (1) The Indian Christians—A Study of a Minority Author(s): J. H. Beaglehole Source: Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 1, No. 1 (1967), pp. 59-80 Published by: Cambridge University Press (2) Politics of Dalit Identity Author(s): P. Muthaiah Source: The Indian Journal of Political Science, Vol. 65, No. 3 (July-Sept., 2004), pp. 385-402 Published by: Indian Political Science Association Here is a quote from the first article: QUOTE The Scheduled Castes Order I951 (1950) followed the language of the 1936 Order in excluding non-Hindus from this category.. UNQUOTE Here is a quote from the second article: QUOTE A Scheduled castes order was promulgated by the President of India in 1950 which basically re-enacted the 1936 list UNQUOTE 5. That the Constituent Assembly approved and adopted by a broad consensus of opinion a report prepared by its Minority Rights subcommittee that defined Scheduled Castes as a section of the Hindu community. Please read the following debates: http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol5p8a.htm http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol5p8b.htm 6. The Christian members of the Constituent Assembly were not only satisfied with the provisions of this Minority Rights Report, but actively praised the manner in which all the minority rights questions were handled in it. Please read the following debates: http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol5p8a.htm http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol5p8b.htm Here is a quote from Fr. Jerome D'Souza's speech in this regard: QUOTE let me also, though somewhat belatedly, express, my very great gratification at the way in which these minority questions have been handled, the skill and tact with which a consensus of opinion has been secured in this report and the great kindness and spirit of understanding shown by Sardar Patel in dealing with these questions here and elsewhere in discussions. UNQUOTE ..Fr. Jerome D'Souza 6. The Christian members of the Constituent Assembly never proposed an amendment to include Dalit Christians in the definition of Scheduled Castes. Please read all the over 150 Constituent Assembly debates at this link: http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/debates.htm Please read this article: Politics of Dalit Identity Author(s): P. Muthaiah Source: The Indian Journal of Political Science, Vol. 65, No. 3 (July-Sept., 2004), pp. 385-402 Published by:
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Dear Mr Borges 1. As I understand it ( I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong), the Bible contains the tenets of Christianity, the teachings of Jesus Christ. These teachings were not region, colour, race or gender specific but is applicable to all across the board. Those who call themselves followers of Christ are expected to observe his teachings. Hence your statement Please note that (1) the last word in the Bible was written not later than the first century AD and, although the Caste system has been prevalent in India for a few millennia, the word caste itself was not used in his sense earlier than in the sixteenth century, (2) everything mentioned in the Bible relates to the region of West Asia, Egypt and Rome; there is no connection with India where the system was prevalent,(3) going by your logic, one could claim that Mass, Eucharist, confession etc. are not recognised by Christianity, since these words too do not find mention in the Bible. makes no sense to me. I will, however, let it pass as I do not want to digress from the present discussion. 2. regarding your point as to how people will be able to trace their original castes, please rest assured that there are methods and ways and means of doing so. Just like one can trace one's property details. If a dalit christian were to reconvert to hinduism, he would be restored all the benefits.There are mechanisms in place to trace the original castes. For example, the East Indian christians were recently included in the OBC list and those who were interested in availing of the benefits have been able to secure their caste certificate. There is a help-desk in Bombay which assists them in tracing their original caste for obtaining the certificate. In case you are interested, I could try and obtain their contact details and put you in touch with them. 3. Regarding hindutva influence in the Constituent Assembly, please read what wikipedia has to state about Dr K M Munshi and Mr Purushottam Das Tandon and Dr S P Mukherjee,. Re: Dr K M Munshi: He and Purushottam Das Tandonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushottam_Das_Tandon were among those who strongly opposed propagation and conversion in the constituent assembly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_Assembly_of_India. He was also the main driving force behind the renovation of the historically important Somnath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnath Temple by the Government of India just after independence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanaiyalal_Maneklal_Munshi Re: Purushottam Das Tandon: Several controversies and contradictions abound in the life of Purushottam Das Tandon. While he emphasized the similarities between Hinduhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu and Muslim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim cultures, he is regarded to have carried the image of a *soft* Hindu nationalisthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_nationalist leader. He and KM Munshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KM_Munshi were among those who strongly opposed religious propagation and conversion of a people of one religion to another; they strongly argued in the constituent assemblyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_Assembly_of_India for a condemnation in the constitutionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_India of religious conversion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purushottam_Das_Tandon Re: Dr S P Mukherjee: *Dr. Shyama Prasad Mukherjee* was an Indian politician, who served as Minister for Industry and Supply in Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehruhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jawaharlal_Nehru's cabinet. After falling out with Nehru, Mookerjee quit the Indian National Congress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Congress party and founded Nationalist Bharatiya Jana Sanghhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bharatiya_Jana_Sangh party in 1951.' He emerged as a spokesman for Hindus and shortly joined Hindu Mahasabha and in 1944, he became the President. After consultation with Shri Golwalkar Guruji of RSS Shri Mookerjee founded Bharatiya Jana Sangh on 21st Oct. 1951 at Delhi and he became the first President of it. In 1952 elections, The BJS was ideologically close to the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sanghhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh (RSS) and widely considered the political arm of Hindu Nationalismhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Nationalism. It was opposed to appeasement of India's Muslims. The BJS also favored a uniform civil code governing personal law matters for both Hindus and Muslims, wanted to ban cow slaughter and end the special status given to the Muslim-majority state of Jammu and Kashmirhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir. The BJS founded the Hindutva http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva agenda which became the wider political expression of India's Hindu majority. His legacy still remains influential among the conservative members within the Congress. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syama_Prasad_Mookerjee 4. I have pointed out to you that the very fact a
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
On Sep 3, 2013, at 3:48 AM, Sebastian Borges asked several questions of jc Prof Borges questions (SB); jc's answers (jc) SB1. Have you ever lived in Velim, Goa? jc1: IF visiting during monsoon holidays and around Christmas = 'lived' ...the answer is YES == SB2. Have you attended the Velim church on a feast day? Did you observe the short procession on 3rd December (Feast of St. Francis Xavier) and/or the long procession on 8th December (Feast of Immaculate Conception), the Santos Passos on Palm Sunday and Good Friday? Did you notice that there are two Confrarias in the parish with the vestments (opa-mursa) in red-and-white (subaltern) and all-red (major)? jc2: NO == SB3. Did you know that only a chardo is eligible to be a member of the major confraria and only a non-chardo (sudir, kunbi, mhar) can become a member of the subaltern confraria? jc3: NO. Besides, I am a Roman Catholic. I do NOT and will NOT accept Caste Discrimination which is based on the Hindu Caste System. == SB4. Do you know that for the last few years the parish priests have been trying to demolish this caste barrier between the confrarias, but the Carambolim zonkars (your clan) are opposing the move? jc4: NO == SB5. Do you know that a couple of years ago, during St. Francis Xavier Novena, after the preacher tried to explain to the congregation the incompatibility of castes with Catholicism and advocated the opening of membership of both the confrarias to all the parishioners, a Carambolim zonkar rushed to assault the priest? jc5: NO. If I was there, I would have been assaulted too, as I would have stood by the priest. == SB6. In spite of all this, would you still refuse to admit that casteism IS PRACTISED in the Catholic church itself, at least in Velim? jc6: Grateful if you would please direct me to any statement of mine which DIRECTLY states that. I have no problems correcting any error I may have made when responding on GN. Am I asking a Clintonian depends what IS is? == SB7. Would you still say that YOU have not SEEN any casteism in the village of Velim? jc7: Yes, I can still say that I have NOT SEEN any casteism (whatever that term means to you) in Velim. I have certainly heard of objections to marriage because of alleged caste differences, and I believe that I have alluded to that in several of my writings.including http://www.colaco.net/1/caste.htm == ANY FURTHER Personal questions, Prof Borges? As you have asked Personal questions of me, Would you mind answering an equal number of Personal questions from me? PS: While I am delighted that Prof Borges has not asked me to refer to events of the 16th century, events of which I have NO PROOF which I can cross-check (examine) to determine ALL the facts of the case(s), I am puzzled as to WHY the good Professor would quote my post wrt Poona (where I grew up) and then proceed to ask me questions about Velim (which I only visited). I REPEAT: I do not say that individuals should not accept/be self cognizant of their antecedents. What I definitely say is that ANYBODY who claims to be a Catholic but DISCRIMINATES on the basis of this awful thing called 'Caste' is NOT a Catholic. PN: I do not mind being dragged to the level of the Intellectual LCD by arguers and arguments which reflect (to me at least) a deep seated personal problem on the part of the intellectual LCDs. Even though I am not trained in the field of Psychiatry, I'll venture to state this to ALL who will pay attention: Discard the bitterness and learn to work hard and to be happy. Chronic, unremitting bitterness will only destroy one's self from within. I believe that It is OK to have vociferous and passionate debates. There are some one will lose, and others one will win. BUT after the debates are done with .Let us Learn to have a laugh even if it is with a chilled glass of Limboo Sodh. good wishes as always jc proud subHarijan Kunbi or whatever is lowermost according to that Horrible Apartheid Caste System of India.
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull (revised)
Sebastian Borges wrote: 4. Do you know that for the last few years the parish priests have been trying to demolish this caste barrier between the confrarias, but the Carambolim zonkars (your clan) are opposing the move? 5. Do you know that a couple of years ago, during St. Francis Xavier Novena, after the preacher tried to explain to the congregation the incompatibility of castes with Catholicism and advocated the opening of membership of both the confrarias to all the parishioners, a Carambolim zonkar rushed to assault the priest? 6. In spite of all this, would you still refuse to admit that casteism is practised in the Catholic church itself, at least in Velim? ?? 7. Would you still say that you have not seen any casteism in the village of Velim? GL responds: Are the confrarias part of the Catholic faith? Both groups worship at the same church standing and sitting side-by-side. Even the priest does not endorse the practices of these outdated groups. It can be that after these confraria meetings - official or unofficial, there is the usual socialization where many Goans love to stick to their group. In Tornoto, it is rare to see East African Goans socialize with Bombay Goans. This is most apparent at New Year eve dances. Portuguese-speaking Goans used to and still look down on non-Portuguese-speaking Goans. You appear to mix-up the practices of some Goans and the religion they claim to practice. This is some strange logic that I see in several posts on this topic written by learned men. Is this Goan behavior caste? Or is it the narrow-mind that many have, even as they call themselves broad-minded? Why does religion have to be associated with all Goan behavior? Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Sebastian Borges wrote: My thanks to Santosh for the very informative links; they widened the horizons of an ill-read person like me. Dear Prof. Borges, I too appreciate your input and perspective on this issue, which I think are more valuable than mine. I am not sure if you are interested in entertaining a private discussion on the scheduled castes topic with the Goanet poster named Marshall Mendonza in response to the following offer by him: QUOTE I could have a long discussion with you on this subject but it would not be fair to other Goanet readers and so if you wish we could take this offline.. UNQUOTE ..Marshall Mendonza But if you are going to engage him in such a discussion, I would really appreciate it if you could cc your replies to me. I am very much interested in reading the documents/reading material he has read and the reliable hearsay information he has gathered from his discussions with others in the know. I am referring to the following quotes by him in his latest Goanet post (http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2013-September/234032.html). QUOTE To be honest, these are some of the answers that I too am seeking. I have not been able to lay my hands on any information/ document which could suggest or tell us what transpired between 26th Jan 1950 and 9th August 1950. I understand from my reading and discussions with others in the know that there was absolutely no debate, discussion, white paper, nothing to suggest what was in the offing. UNQUOTE …...Marshall Mendonza QUOTE I reliably understand that it was this lobby which was instrumental in pushing the Order as they did not succeed in preventing any discrimination in the Constitution. UNQUOTE …...Marshall Mendonza I am particularly interested in knowing why his reading material, his hearsay information, his understanding, his people in the know, etc. are so uniquely reliable and special. On my part, I will continue to provide more factual information from independent sources about the history of the scheduled castes list in the Indian constitution, and the role played by the Christian members of the Constituent Assembly in putting it together. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Can someone please elaborate what is Mull ani Bull all about, how is this subjectline relevant to the issue being debated, and who brought about this subjectline to the debate?
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Dear Marshall, I do not know about Poona, but I cannot agree with you that there is no casteism among Goan Christians in Bombay. I have lived in Bombay among Goans hailing from all parts of Goa at the Goan Society Bldg., Chira Bazar. Your challenge that I should show you one sentence in the Bible to the effect that Christianity recognises castes is just ridiculous, to say the least. Please note that (1) the last word in the Bible was written not later than the first century AD and, although the Caste system has been prevalent in India for a few millennia, the word caste itself was not used in this sense earlier than in the sixteenth century, (2) everything mentioned in the Bible relates to the region of West Asia, Egypt and Rome; there is no connection with India where the system was prevalent, (3) going by your logic, one could claim that Mass, Eucharist, confession etc. are not recognised by Christianity, since these words too do not find mention in the Bible. You say that the Christian community is fighting for parity in economic benefits and assistance to all dalits irrespective of religion. How is this possible in relation to Christian dalits? For example, how do you identify a Christian dalit? On what basis would you put a tag of Christian dalit on a Goan Christian Mahar whose forefathers were converted in the sixteenth century? Your statement, “Nowhere has it been claimed that there are castes in christianity as you have erroneously surmised. So far as the Church is concerned, it is obvious that the Church is seized of the issue and is working towards total eradication.” is self-contradictory. How can one eradicate something that does not exist in the first place? Have you heard of Confrarias in Goan Churches? Do you know that membership of these bodies is strictly caste-based? Or is it your contention that churches are distinct from Christianity? Why did it take the Church over four centuries to be seized of a “non-existent” issue? The elevation of a dalit to the position of Archbishop of Hyderabad is nothing to gloat about, but what is galling is that this appointment was opposed by his predecessor who had scaled the highest rung in the episcopal hierarchy. Also that a priest should have predicted that the new Archbishop would not last more than five years. And he did not do just a fairly good but an excellent job. You are harping on “influence of hindutva forces” but no evidence is forthcoming. When I talked of influence of Christian members you wanted documentary proof. But, for your contention no such proof is considered necessary!!! What you “reliably understand’ is valid proof but published work cited by others carries no weight!! Chinese Whispers? If Articles 25 30 have nothing to do with reservations or benefits for dalit christians, why did you bring them here at all? Is it difficult to understand that the Christian representatives did not (or could not) ask for any benefits to be specifically given to Christian dalits for the simple reason that Christianity does not recognise castes? How could they possibly ask for benefits to a “non-existent” group? You are asking a rhetoric question: “If dalit christians were excluded by the Constitution what was the need for this Order?” I think you will have to first prove that they were in fact not excluded by the Constitution. Please do so. Your statement, I am afraid neither you nor Santosh have been able to provide documentaryevidence to support your contention that the Christian representatives did not press for protection of dalit christians. From all evidence so far the contrary is proved does not pass muster. Please provide the evidence to show that they did, in fact, press for protection of *Dalit Christians*/*Scheduled Caste Christians*/*Oppressed Christians*. Regards, Sebastian Borges On 1 Sep 2013 Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Prof Borges I am in total agreement with you when you state that casteism is practised in the Church in certain parts of India. So far as Tamil Nadu is concerned I have heard about it first hand from priests and nuns who have worked there as from the media. So far as Goa Is concerned, I admit my ignorance as I have never lived there except for short holidays but I have heard about stray cases. In Poona where I grew up, it was non-existent. So too in Bombay where I have been living for the past 19 years. I stand by my statement that when Fr Jerome stated that Christianity does not recognize castes, he was making a factual statement. If you can show me one sentence from the Bible which shows that Christianity recognises castes, I am willing to rescind my views. One needs to make a distinction between what religion stands for and what are some deviations in the practice of the religion on the ground. Any person who has a fairly good knowledge of India's social structure will understand that it is not only hinduism that has been been plaqued by casteism. Even egalitarian
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Response; 1.If the poster chooses to live in denial of the evidence furnished by me in the documents provided by Prof Borges just because they are unpalatable to him and do not support his views, there is nothing more we can do about it. He is free to live in his world of dreams and fantasy. Who are we to deny him his enjoyment? 2. secondly, his asking me to provide historical evidence of my owns views ( which in his bird brained and juvenile way chooses to call speculations) should count as the Joke of the Month. All the evidence has already been provided in my previous posts from the documents which Prof Borges himself submitted. If he wants to a blind eye to them, we cannot help it. When he is cornered and unable to provide documentary evidence to support his Chinese Whispers akin quotes, in the ways of a canny and wily politician he tries to pass the buck and wants me to provide evidence to the contrary. It is like asking an innocent man to prove that he is not guilty. When he provided the quotes, he ought to be able to support them with evidence. Why is it so difficult for him to do so if he is confident in the source of his information? 3. I have placed before the poster several questions in my previous post. Why does the poster shy away and develop cold feet in answering them. Resorting to rhetoric and bombast is no substitute for sound argument. I repeat them again for his benefit: Quote: 3. If, for the sake of argument, we accept that Fr Jerome and Prof Mookerjee did press for not extending economic and social benefits to dalit christians during the debates or in the run up to the adoption of the Constitution, why was the Constitution adopted with the safeguards intact? Why was the Presidential Order issued barely 7 MONTHS later which excluded all other religions except hindus from availing of the benefits? What transpired during the intervening period from 26th January 1950 to 9th August 1950 for this Presidential Order to be issued? 4. Santosh has quoted M Madhu Chandra as saying: QUOTE In 1950 upon the representation of Christian leaders for not including Scheduled Caste Christians in Constitution (Scheduled Caste) Order 1950, the assurance from then the Prime Minister and President via letter dated 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950 respectively were given. UNQUOTE ..M. Madhu Chandra If the dalit christians were excluded based on the representation of Christian leaders, a) why did the Christian leaders protest and make a representation to the Prime Minister after the Presidential Order was issued? b) Why did the PM and President have to give any assurances? c) What were these assurances? d) Is it possible to access these two letters of 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950? They would shed much light. I look forward to Santosh throwing more light rather than heat on this subject. When I ask these questions it is more with a keenness to acquire more knowledge rather than proving that I am right or the poster wrong. regards, Marshall * * *I am sorry I cannot do anything about the fact that the respondent below continues to engage in rhetoric and insults. I am interested in knowing how the constitutional notion of Scheduled Castes and tribes came into being in Indian history. In response to the said respondent's prior rhetorical question, Prof. Borges provided factual information and links to two debates of the Constituent Assembly. I provided facts reported by three genuinely well-informed professionals of different backgrounds, based on their own independent research - the first a Jesuit priest, scholar and professor (Fr. Izzo), the second a human rights activist (Madhu Chandra) and the third a journalist (Sunil Dasgupta). From the standpoint of an objective rational person all this information would be much more trustworthy and reliable compared to the long-winded interpretations, speculations, insinuations and rhetorical questions contained in the respondent's latest post appended below, especially, given the fact that the claims in his earlier posts in this thread were shown to be false. Therefore, in order to properly stack up his credibility against that of Fr. Izzo, Chandra and Dasgupta, I would kindly request him to provide historical evidence to support his own prior and current speculations. Now as far as my own task and interest are concerned I have accessed information that answers the following questions: 1. Were Dalits belonging to Christian and other religious minorities ever included in the Scheduled Castes list at any time before the Presidential Order of 1950, as the respondent seems to imply? 2. Did the Christian members of the Constituent Assembly petition, lobby, ask or insist that Dalit Christians be included in the Scheduled Castes list drawn up in the Presidential Order of 1950? (Did they object to, or recognize as unfair, the fact that Dalit Christians were not included in the Scheduled Castes list at any time before or after the Presidential
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Mervyn Lobo: There is no casteism in the Bible. Caste, in Indian Christianity, is a purely Hindu hangover. Anyone who practices it, cannot be a follower of Christ. Response: I knew an intelligent person like you would have understood the message. Only two corrections need to be made in your above response- one, there is no caste in Christianity ( the Bible is the Holy Book) and two, caste is a hangover only in certain SECTIONS of Indian Christians. I would not make a blanket statement. I have never experienced or encountered casteism ever in Poona where I grew up and now in Bombay where I live. I guess it is unique only in certain places. Your last sentence is on the dot. Regards, Marshall
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
On 2 September 2013 08:02, Sebastian Borges s_m_bor...@yahoo.com wrote: 'Dear Marshall, I do not know about Poona, but I cannot agree with you that there is no casteism among Goan Christians in Bombay' COMMENT: Having lived and studied in Poona, I can say that I KNOW about Poona. I can safely state that I did NOT know about caste among the Poona Goan Catholics. I agree absolutely with Marshall. I am sure that Marshall will agree with me that our school St. Vincents remains the best. We did not even bother about the religion of our classmates. All that IMHO started when the SS and BJP used religion to push their political agenda; similar to the MGP Of course, I cannot comment about the 16th century. I was not around at that time. jc
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Mervyn Lobo: I am based in Toronto, Canada. I am not sure where you are based but I can assure you that caste is a huge factor in the peculiar type of Christianity as practiced by Goans. Just in case, just in case you are not aware of it, here is a link that will update you, with every agonizing detail, how caste and Christianity go hand in glove in India. Response: I trust you understand the difference between there is no caste in Christianity and certain christians practising casteism. If not, please refer to the Bible. Regards Marshall
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
My thanks to Santosh for the very informative links; they widened the horizons of an ill-read person like me. Some twelve years ago I had attended a camp on Dalit Issues at the Ecumenical Centre, Bangalore. The participants were mainly Dalit pastors and seminarians belonging to different Christian denominations from Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Andhra and Orissa. I was the only Catholic. It was there that I leaned for the first time that in Tamil Nadu there are separate churches and cemeteries for Dalits. I formed the impression that this was the case with non-Catholic denominations alone, and that it is only in Goa that a Catholic priest can arrogantly declare, Fr. X, I don’t know what your caste is; but I am a Bamon right in the Paco Patriarcal! I don’t know whether our own Archbishop himself has made such a statement. Today I know I was grossly mistaken; I have learned that as late as the year 2000, the superannuated Archbishop (Arulappa) of Hyderabad criticized the Vatican for promoting a Dalit Bishop (Joji) as his successor, claiming that the Vatican did not know the ground realities in Hyderabad! This means that casteism is rampant in the Catholic Church even outside Goa. The Dalit Archbishop proved his predecessor wrong by living up to the trust reposed in him by the Holy See with a highly distinguished tenure until his sad demise in 2010. Please see: http://www.dalitchristians.com/Html/P_ApointmentFirstDalitBishop.htm and http://www.persecution.in/content/gcic-condoles-death-first-dalit-archbishop-marampudi-joji-hyderabad I would like to draw Marshall's attention to the statement by Shri Guptanath Singh in the Constituent Assembly: I want Sir, that those classes who are the backbone of Indian society agricultural, pastoral or artisan classes - though they are not counted as scheduled Castes or Tribes should be given some opportunities to serve in government services. You have already accepted the proposal to appoint a commission to study and investigate their conditions. If you insert words to the effect that those wretched people will be given some chance it would be better for the country. They will prove to be most honest and efficient national servants. I hope they will consider the points I have raised and prove to the agricultural and pastoral classes, whose condition is worse than that of the Harijans and Adibasis, that they are going to to something for them and assure them that they would get their opportunities to serve the country.Do the terms government services, national servants, serve the country refer to seats in legislative bodies? It is true that he was not referring to Christiansspecifically, as that was not expected of him. This was expected of the Christian representatives, but they reckoned that it was none of their concern as it was no skin off their back and the neglected group was, anyway, one that they themselves despised, their fake egalitarianism notwithstanding. Marshall claims that Fr Jerome's statement that there is no caste in Christianity is factual. It is not factual even in the twenty-first century. In fact, the statement is a cruel joke, a fraud perpetrated on the depressed castes among the Indian Christians. If there are no castes in Christianity, whence the Christian Dalits for whom the Churches/Bishops are demanding special rights on par with Hindu Scheduled Castes? Why are these being denied equality within the church itself even to this day? Assuming that the demand is conceded by the Government of India, how will it be implemented? How will a Christian Dalit avail of its benefits, especially one whose forefathers were converted over a hundred years ago? Who will issue him his Caste Certificate? On what basis? Marshall says, This Act was overturned in 1950, under the influence of hindutva elements, whereby a Presidential Order was passed restricting the reservations and benefits only to Hindus. All other religions were cut off. After fighting this discrimination for many years, first the Sikhs in 1959 and then the Buddhists in 1990 were extended the reservations and benefits. It may be noted that both Buddhism and Sikhism are egalitarian religions and do not recognise castes just like Christianity and Islam. However this was the logic given for excluding Christian and Muslim dalits. Was the President connected with the Constituent Assembly in any way? Was he acquainted with the sentiments expressed by the Christian members? Was he aware that the Christian members had committed the interests of their community into the hands of the majority community for being dealt fair and square? If the answer to these questions is in the affirmative, how did he forget this so soon? How did he come under the influence of hindutva elements? Does this not reflect on the wisdom of the Christian representatives? Does it not stem from the great lie that there are no castes in Christianity as propagated by the upper caste Christians for their own benefit? And
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
I am sorry I cannot do anything about the fact that the respondent below continues to engage in rhetoric and insults. I am interested in knowing how the constitutional notion of Scheduled Castes and tribes came into being in Indian history. In response to the said respondent's prior rhetorical question, Prof. Borges provided factual information and links to two debates of the Constituent Assembly. I provided facts reported by three genuinely well-informed professionals of different backgrounds, based on their own independent research - the first a Jesuit priest, scholar and professor (Fr. Izzo), the second a human rights activist (Madhu Chandra) and the third a journalist (Sunil Dasgupta). From the standpoint of an objective rational person all this information would be much more trustworthy and reliable compared to the long-winded interpretations, speculations, insinuations and rhetorical questions contained in the respondent's latest post appended below, especially, given the fact that the claims in his earlier posts in this thread were shown to be false. Therefore, in order to properly stack up his credibility against that of Fr. Izzo, Chandra and Dasgupta, I would kindly request him to provide historical evidence to support his own prior and current speculations. Now as far as my own task and interest are concerned I have accessed information that answers the following questions: 1. Were Dalits belonging to Christian and other religious minorities ever included in the Scheduled Castes list at any time before the Presidential Order of 1950, as the respondent seems to imply? 2. Did the Christian members of the Constituent Assembly petition, lobby, ask or insist that Dalit Christians be included in the Scheduled Castes list drawn up in the Presidential Order of 1950? (Did they object to, or recognize as unfair, the fact that Dalit Christians were not included in the Scheduled Castes list at any time before or after the Presidential Order was issued?) The answer to each of these questions is NO. Here is the evidence. 1. Scheduled castes were always recognized to include only Hindu Dalits even before 1950, and expressly exclude Christian Dalits. Please see this Scheduled Castes order of 1936: http://www.anagrasarkalyan.gov.in/compendium/part-1_page9-24.pdf Here is a quote: QUOTE 3. Notwithstanding anything in the last preceding paragraph— (a) No Indian Christian shall be deemed to be a member of a Scheduled Caste; UNQUOTE 2. Scheduled Castes were defined as a section of the Hindu community in the first Minority Rights Report in 1947, and accepted as an amendment in the assembly. Here is a quote regarding this in one of the assembly debates: QUOTE 1-A. The section of the Hindu community referred to as Scheduled Castes as defined in Schedule I to the Government of India Act, 1935, shall have the same rights and benefits which are herein provided for minorities specified in the Schedule to para. 1 UNQUOTE ..K. M. Munshi Please see: http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol5p8b.htm 3. The fact that Scheduled Castes were recognized and accepted as distinct from Christians and other religious minorities by the members of the Constituent Assembly, including the Christian members is clear from the following quote of H. C. Mookherjee, the lead Christian representative, in one of the debate links provided by Prof. Borges: QUOTE ...let me point out once again that the Scheduled Castes have been given reservation not on grounds of religion at all; they form part and parcel of the Hindu Community, and they have given reservation apparently and clearly on grounds of their economic, social educational backwardness. UNQUOTE ..H. C. Mookherjee Please see: http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/790979/ Cheers, Santosh - Original Message - From: Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com Response: While ignoring the usual bird brained and juvenile opening remarks which we have now got accustomed to, I will focus on the more substantive issues. I found the rest of the below post quite interesting. However, there do not address the statement made by Prof Borges. and there are several gaps which need to be filled. 1 The below post scores high on verbosity and rhetoric but low on substance. All the quotations attributed to Fr Jerome in the below post have all come from third parties or hearsay. If Fr Jerome did state all these words attributed to him, surely there would be some original documents available to corroborate and verify just like the documents posted by Prof Borges. Is it possible for Santosh to post records (weblinks) of the actual debate when these so-called quotations were uttered. These would be far more reliable. Otherwise, they appear to be an outcome of a game called Chinese Whispers which we used to play as children. ( for those not familiar with the game or its meaning, please refer to the foll weblink):
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull (ML ani Caste)
Mervyn Lobo wrote: 'I am based in Toronto, Canada. I can assure you that caste is a huge factor in the peculiar type of Christianity as practiced by Goans. .. caste and Christianity go hand in glove in India.' COMMENT: 1: Request my good friend Mervyn, to please clarify what he means by huge factor in the peculiar type of Christianity as practiced. Please specify what they allegedly PRACTICE. 2: I believe I have written this. zillion times. 3: Revision aside, the major facet of Casteism is DISCRIMINATION. 4: It is mainly: a COLOR based discrimination. Am still trying to figure out how the Huns became Rajputs, If the Ship wrecked Jews became Chitpawan Brahmins, How Shivaji eventually was able to overcome Brahmin objection before becoming Chatrapati..etc 5: Caste discrimination is incompatible with Christianity. 6: Tomorrow, Mervyn might travel to another island country favoured by Canadians and write about Santeria Catholics. 7: Those Goans who practice discrimination based on their alleged ancestral pre-conversion Hindu caste, have NOT YET converted. They are best classified as individuals who are attending Christian worship services while practicing the Hindu Caste System. One day, they might resolve to shun this Apartheid practice and convert to Christianity. jc
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Marshall Mendonza wrote: Fr Jerome's statement that there is no caste in Christianity is factual. Mervyn Lobo writes: I am based in Toronto, Canada. I am not sure where you are based but I can assure you that caste is a huge factor in the peculiar type of Christianity as practiced by Goans. Just in case, just in case you are not aware of it, here is a link that will update you, with every agonizing detail, how caste and Christianity go hand in glove in India. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians Gilbert Lawrence responds: I read the link which was kindly provided by Mervyn. The link has nothing connected to what Mervyn alludes to as exist today in Goa. The closest connection is: The upper caste Gaonkar Christians have demanded that only their community be given positions on the Pastoral Council of Goa's Catholic Church.[16] The fact that this upper caste group made the demand would suggest that they do not have that right. And there is no reference that their demand has been accepted. In the past the Bamons tended to be priests was in major part related to the fact that they were the only group with any education and literacy skills. With widespread religious affiliated schools, that problem is much resolved. So do you have any CURRENT data / evidence to support, that caste is a huge factor in the peculiar type of Christianity as practiced by Goans? Thanks in anticipation. Please do not take this personally. Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull (ML ani Caste)
Jose Colaco wrote: 1: Request my good friend Mervyn, to please clarify what he means by huge factor in the peculiar type of Christianity as practiced. Please specify what they allegedly PRACTICE. -snip- 7: Those Goans who practice discrimination based on their alleged ancestral pre-conversion Hindu caste, have NOT YET converted. They are best classified as individuals who are attending Christian worship services while practicing the Hindu Caste System. One day, they might resolve to shun this Apartheid practice and convert to Christianity. Doc, We are on the same page. You find the caste system absurd and so do I. You also feel that one cannot be Christian and practice the caste system, and so do I. The caste system was jettisoned by my fore parents. I had no exposer to it until I read about it on Goanet. The more I read about the caste system, the easier it comes for me to understand how easily a person can be deluded into caste, superstitious, mythology and religious believes. Mervyn
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Sebastian Borges wrote: This means that casteism is rampant in the Catholic Church even outside Goa. The Dalit Archbishop proved his predecessor wrong by living up to the trust reposed in him by the Holy See with a highly distinguished tenure until his sad demise in 2010. Gilbert Lawrence responds: What your above account shows there is no casteism because the Dalit was made Archbishop. And he was very successful i.e. majority of his followers (congregation) gave him their full support. Regards, GL
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Marshall Mendonza wrote: I trust you understand the difference between there is no caste in Christianity and certain christians practising casteism. If not, please refer to the Bible. Marshall, I am going to give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you sent the above as a joke. If the above was not meant as a joke, then you are requesting me to research on a concept that has been jettisoned by all followers of Christ EXCEPT Indian Christians? What am I going to learn by researching a rejected concept? Lastly, unless the Bible has been revised in the past 20 years, you are attempting to send me on a wild goose chase. There is no casteism in the Bible. Caste, in Indian Christianity, is a purely Hindu hangover. Anyone who practices it, cannot be a follower of Christ. Mervyn
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Response: While ignoring the usual bird brained and juvenile opening remarks which we have now got accustomed to, I will focus on the more substantive issues. I found the rest of the below post quite interesting. However, there do not address the statement made by Prof Borges. and there are several gaps which need to be filled. 1 The below post scores high on verbosity and rhetoric but low on substance. All the quotations attributed to Fr Jerome in the below post have all come from third parties or hearsay. If Fr Jerome did state all these words attributed to him, surely there would be some original documents available to corroborate and verify just like the documents posted by Prof Borges. Is it possible for Santosh to post records (weblinks) of the actual debate when these so-called quotations were uttered. These would be far more reliable. Otherwise, they appear to be an outcome of a game called Chinese Whispers which we used to play as children. ( for those not familiar with the game or its meaning, please refer to the foll weblink): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers 2. Fr Jerome's statement that there is no caste in Christianity is factual. I am yet to come across any authentic statement of Fr Jerome or any other Christian member objecting to extension of economic and social benefits to dalit christians. I have pointed out several statements of Fr Jerome and Prof Mookerjee from the debate in Parliament in my responses to Prof Borges which contradict what Santosh has posted. For the sake of brevity, I reproduce a few of them here. Prof Borges further quotes Fr Jerome as under: *According to him, a man is to be assisted because he is poor, because his birth and upbringing have not given him the opportunity to make progress,socially,politically and educationally; it should not matter whether he be a christian,or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Brahmin or non-Brahmin, or a Scheduled Caste member. Prof Mookherjee in the debate is quoted as saying: So far as the masses are concerned my friends are united in saying that the masses do not want reservations. They say that they are interested in three or four things only. They want food, clothing, a shelter over their heads, medical aid and good roads. These are their demands. When they were specifically asked whether they wanted reservation, the reply in every case was as follows: We know that we shall never enter the Legislatures; reservations do not concern or interest us. There all sections of the people were at one. Then came queries addressed to the lower middle classes, people who depend upon service to earn their living. Their reaction was that if there was any kind of reservation they would like to have reservation in jobs. Prof Mookerjee is further quoted as saying: So far as the idea of building up one nation is concerned I do admit that there are certain economically backward groups in every community and for them provision has been made in the directive adopted in December last. For those interested in reading the entire post, they may access the same from the foll weblinks: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2013-August/233952.html http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2013-August/233918.html 3. If, for the sake of argument, we accept that Fr Jerome and Prof Mookerjee did press for not extending economic and social benefits to dalit christians during the debates or in the run up to the adoption of the Constitution, why was the Constitution adopted with the safeguards intact? Why was the Presidential Order issued barely 7 MONTHS later which excluded all other religions except hindus from availing of the benefits? What transpired during the intervening period from 26th January 1950 to 9th August 1950 for this Presidential Order to be issued? 4. Santosh has quoted M Madhu Chandra as saying: QUOTE In 1950 upon the representation of Christian leaders for not including Scheduled Caste Christians in Constitution (Scheduled Caste) Order 1950, the assurance from then the Prime Minister and President via letter dated 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950 respectively were given. UNQUOTE ..M. Madhu Chandra If the dalit christians were excluded based on the representation of Christian leaders, a) why did the Christian leaders protest and make a representation to the Prime Minister after the Presidential Order was issued? b) Why did the PM and President have to give any assurances? c) What were these assurances? d) Is it possible to access these two letters of 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950? They would shed much light. I look forward to Santosh throwing more light rather than heat on this subject. I believe that education never ends. There is always something more to learn each day. With every new evidence, our old beliefs are discarded. Regards, Marshall *Now that Prof, Borges has presented some of the facts on this issue, let me tell you why I know that he is on solid ground in
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Marshall Mendonza wrote: 2. Fr Jerome's statement that there is no caste in Christianity is factual. Marshall, I am based in Toronto, Canada. I am not sure where you are based but I can assure you that caste is a huge factor in the peculiar type of Christianity as practiced by Goans. Just in case, just in case you are not aware of it, here is a link that will update you, with every agonizing detail, how caste and Christianity go hand in glove in India. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians I believe that education never ends. There is always something more to learn each day. With every new evidence, our old beliefs are discarded. Yep, I am waiting, breathlessly, for your announcement that the evidence points out that the whole concept of god is a sham. Either that, or the announcement that with God on your side, how could you be wrong? Mervyn
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Now that Prof, Borges has presented some of the facts on this issue, let me tell you why I know that he is on solid ground in his assertions about Christian members of the Indian Constituent Assembly. While doing this let me also provide evidence on the issue of impulsive rhetoric and lack of balance when it comes to sectarian matters that I raised in my previous post in regards to other respondents in this thread. Some longstanding members of Goanet might remember that the main issue here was debated many years ago in this forum. At that time it was pointed out that Fr. Jerome D'Souza, one of the Christian members had objected to including Dalit Christians in the list of Scheduled Castes on the theoretical grounds that there is no caste in Christianity. The evidence that was cited at that time to support this fact was an article written in 2005 by an American Jesuit scholar and professor of Boston College named Fr. John Francis Izzo. Here is the link to that article, entitled Dalit Means Broken in a prominent Catholic magazine: http://americamagazine.org/issue/518/article/dalit-meansbroken Here are some pertinent quotes in that article: QUOTE When India’s founding Constituent Assembly debated making concessions for Outcaste-Christians, Jerome D’Souza, S.J., representing the Christians, rejected them, claiming there is no caste in Christianity. UNQUOTE ...Fr. John Francis Izzo QUOTE “Who will look after the Christian Dalits?” Dr. B. R. Ambedkar asked Father D’Souza. “The Christian churches will,” Father D’Souza replied. UNQUOTE ...Fr. John Francis Izzo The questions as to who was consulted, and on whose representation and on what precedent the Presidential order of 1950 and the list of Scheduled Castes were issued have also been addressed in the popular media by genuinely well-informed activists and journalists concerned about this issue, such as the human rights activist M. Madhu Chandra and Sunil Dasgupta of India Today. The common answer to two of these questions appears to be exactly what Prof. Borges claimed - the Christian representatives on the Constituent Assembly. Here is an article on this by Madhu Chandra: http://www.countercurrents.org/chandra160707.htm Here is the relevant quote in this regard: QUOTE In 1950 upon the representation of Christian leaders for not including Scheduled Caste Christians in Constitution (Scheduled Caste) Order 1950, the assurance from then the Prime Minister and President via letter dated 7 November 1950 and 17 December 1950 respectively were given. UNQUOTE ..M. Madhu Chandra While there may be some ambiguity in the meaning of the above statement, please note how thoroughly the following additional quote contradicts the claims made in the post appended below: QUOTE For first time, Indian's lowest caste known as Untouchables or Depressed Classes have been identified as Scheduled Castes introduced by Colonial Government of India in 1935. In the following year Colonial Government of India (Scheduled Castes) Order 1935 specified, No Indian Christian shall be deemed to be a member of a Scheduled Caste. Since then any Scheduled Caste origins converted to Christianity lost its Scheduled Caste status, although they remain economically, educationally, socially and politically backward as much as before their conversion. UNQUOTE ..M. Madhu Chandra Here is an article in India Today that clarifies further any ambiguity that there might be about the role played by the Christian members of the Constituent assembly in excluding Dalit Christians from the Schedule Castes list: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/disgruntled-dalit-christians-seek-inclusion-of-community-to-scheduled-caste-list/1/288775.html Here is the money quote: QUOTE The problem should not have arisen at all. When Jawaharlal Nehru was compiling the Scheduled Caste list, he called three prominent Christians- Rajkumari Amrit Kaur, Father Jerome D'Souza and H.C. Mukherjee-to ask if any section of their communities should be included in the list. They, however, said no such measure was needed. After all, Christianity was an egalitarian, classless religion. They were wrong-and Christians in this country believe they are still bearing the cross. UNQUOTE ...Sunil Dasgupta Cheers, Santosh - Original Message - From: Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com Further to my last posting on this subject, as far as my knowledge and information goes, dalits of all religions were granted reservations and benefits by the government from 1937 onwards due to their social and economic diabilities. This Act was overturned in 1950, under the influence of hindutva elements, whereby a Presidential Order was passed restricting the reservations and benefits only to hindus. All other religions were cut off. After fighting this discrimination for many years, first the Sikhs in 1959 and then the Buddhists in 1990 were extended the
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
I have now had time to peruse and read through the 2 documents attached to Prof Borges' post. I must admit that I am terribly disappointed. The entire debate from start to end is all about ending communal representation in the legislatures and Parliament. Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere is there any mention, discussion or debate about the existence or non-existence of casteism or caste discrimination among Christians as Prof Borges contended. Refer his post to JC below: (4) As far as special privileges by way of Reservations is concerned, let us not forget that an injustice was done to Christian dalits by the makers of the Constitution of India under the influence of the Christian members of the Constituent assembly who claimed that caste discrimination did not exist among Christians. One of these was a Catholic priest. And now, over 60 years later, the Christian Churches are pressing to reverse this provision! As I said in my earlier posts, Prof Borges is confused and mixing up issues. The debate and discussion in the Constituent Assembly was all about ending sectoral or communal representation in the legislatures and Parliament. I quote from Prof Borges's own posting: Fr. Jerome referred to the multiple signs of good-will on the part of the majority community and fully backed Dr. Mookherjee in his decision that there should be *NO RESERVATION OF SEATS.* ( Note: caps and italics are mine to emphasize that what was rejected was RESERVATION OF SEATS in Parliament) Prof Borges further quotes Fr Jerome as under: *According to him, a man is to be assisted because he is poor, because his birth and upbringing have not given him the opportunity to make progress, socially,politically and educationally; it should not matter whether he be a Christian,or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Brahmin or non-Brahmin, or a Scheduled Caste member.*(Note: italics are mine to emphasize that he made a point that all socially and economically backward persons, irrespective of religion or caste should be given benefits. Nowhere does he say that economic and social benefits should not be extended to dalits of Christian origin as surmised by Prof Borges) Prof Mookherjee in the debate is quoted as saying: So far as the masses are concerned my friends are united in saying that the * **masses do not want reservations. *They say that they are interested in three or four things only. They want food, clothing, a shelter over their heads, medical aid and good roads. These are their demands. When they were specifically asked whether they wanted reservation, the reply in every case was as follows: *We know that we shall never enter the Legislatures; **reservations do not concern or interest us.* There all sections of the people were at one. Then came queries addressed to the lower middle classes, people who depend upon service to earn their living. *Their reaction was that *if there was any kind of reservation they would like to have reservation in *jobs. (*italics are mine. Pl note that Prof Mookerjee has stated in plain language that the Christian masses did not want reservation in legislatures but reservation in jobs) Sir, in considering whether the House should accept the recommendations of the Advisory Committee and the resolution placed before it by Sardar Patel there are two questions which, it seems to me, the House should ask itself. The first is: are we really honest when we say that we are seeking to establish a secular state? *And the second is, whether we intend to have one nation. if your idea is to have a secular state it follows inevitable **that we cannot afford to recognise minorities based upon religion. This to my mind is the strongest possible argument why RESERVATION OF SEATS FOR RELIGIOUS GROUPS** should be abolished** ( *Note:* *caps and italics are mine. He speaks of abolishing reservation of seats for religious groups) *and that immediately.* *So **far as the idea of building up one nation is concerned I do admit that there **are certain economically backward groups in every community and for them **provision has been made in the directive adopted in December last. *( Note: he makes it a point that there are economically and socially backward groups in every community and that there are safeguards made in the Directive Principles. This was the situation as on 26th November 1949 when the new Constitution was adopted by the Constituent Assembly and 26th January 1950 when the new Constitution came into effect. However, on 10th August, 1950, about 8 months later this safeguard was overturned by a Presidential Order *1950, known **as the Constitution **(SCHEDULED CASTE)Order, no.19, **Aug.10, 1950 which specifically restricted the benefits to only Hindus and **excluded all other religions like Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians and Muslims). **Refer:* 4[3. Notwithstanding anything contained in paragraph 2, no person who professes a religion different from the Hindu 5[, the Sikh or the Buddhist] religion shall
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Further to my last posting on this subject, as far as my knowledge and information goes, dalits of all religions were granted reservations and benefits by the government from 1937 onwards due to their social and economic diabilities. This Act was overturned in 1950, under the influence of hindutva elements, whereby a Presidential Order was passed restricting the reservations and benefits only to hindus. All other religions were cut off. After fighting this discrimination for many years, first the Sikhs in 1959 and then the Buddhists in 1990 were extended the reservations and benefits. It may be noted that both Buddhism and Sikhism are egalitarian religions and do not recognise castes just like Christianity and Islam. However this was the logic given for excluding christian and muslim dalits. A number of Commissions, the last being the Rangnath Mishra Commission have pointed out this discrimination and recommended that the reservation and benefits be extended to all dalits irrespective of religion. However, the government lacks the will to implement this. Regards, Marshall
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Thank you Prof Borges for your very informative post and the weblinks. I shall go through the information in detail over the week-end and come back with a detailed response. In the meanwhile, here is my prima facie response: 1. Apparently, Prof Borges is confusing reservation of seats in Parliament based on religion with reservation of economic and social benefits to dalits. 2 Any person conversant with Indian history would know that there was proportional representation based on religion in the provincial assemblies. Hence, the Congress ruled in some provinces and the Muslim League were in power in some provinces. This was the state of affairs at the time of independence. Incidentally even cricket was played based on religious representation. In the pentangular tournaments there were teams representing the Hindus, Muslims, Parsis, Europeans and the Rest. On a side note, my uncle played for the Rest and later on represented Punjab in the Ranji Trophy.(being based out at Patiala and teaching at the Yadavindra Public School). Hence at the time of drafting of the Constitution by the Constituent Assembly, many members thought of proportionate representation based on religion. But many others learning from the tragic partition of India and the resulting bloodshed rose above self and self-interest and idealistically opted for a secular state without religious representation. The only exception was made in case of Anglo-Indians for whom 2 seats were reserved. Seats in certain constituencies where they were in a majority / large numbers were also reserved for members of the SC/ST in view of their peculiar disabilities. It should be noted here that there was at this point of time no distinction made between religions. All members of ST/ST of whatever religious persuasions were extended the same benefits. However, this status quo was upturned suddenly on 10th August 1950 by a Presidential Order, mark you, and not by Parliamentary legislation, excluding persons professing religions like christianity, buddhism, islam and sikhism from availing of reservations and benefits. There was no discussion, no debate, no circulation of white papers, simply nothing. The logic and reasoning that was given was that except for hinduism all other religions did not recognise castes. 2. However, this logic and reasoning was turned on its head when after protracted struggle, Sikhs were granted the benefits in 1956 and Buddhists in 1990. Prof Borges, kindly note. Both Sikhism and Buddhism are egalitarian religions and do not recognise castes like christianity and islam. To understand the mindsets one needs to fast forward to the year 2000. Guru Nanak's and Mahavir's birth anniversaries were celebrated by the government (then BJP) with great fanfare. But the 2000 birth anniversary of Christ was totally ignored. Christianity and Islam are treated as foreign religions and Sikhism, Buddhism and Jainism are treated as Indian religions. Even if one were to refer to the definition of Hindu in the Indian Constitution, a Hindu is defined as a person who does not profess the Christian, Islam, Jewish or Zoroastrian religion. But the term Hindu includes a jain, buddhist and sikh. That the Jains, Sikhs and Buddhists consider themselves as minorities and not as Hindus is another story. 3. If Prof Borges were to acquaint himself with Articles 2530, he would perhaps realise that these are fundamental rights given to practice, propagate and profess one's religion and to establish and administer educational institutions. They do not provide for government support, reservation and assistance to the poor and needy like the dalits. 4. The Indian Constitution was adopted on 26th November, 1949 and came into effect on 26th January 1950. At this point of time ALL dalits of whatever religion were entitled to reservations and benefits. This was suddenly changed on 10th August 1950, seven months later, NOT by an Act of Parliament but by a Presidential Order. Regards, Marshall
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
I have enjoyed the discussions between Prof. Borges and others. What is especially rewarding to me is that they have relied on historical facts, common sense and reason. Driven by an unshakable bad habit, I have silently fact-checked all of the professor's assertions. It has been a fun experience for me. On the basis of this experience I have no doubt that he is on solid ground in making the statement that he has made below. Therefore, I cannot wait to read his response to the rhetorical question posed to him. Cheers, Santosh - Original Message - From: Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com Sebastian Borges: As far as special privileges by way of Reservations is concerned, let us not forget that an injustice was done to Christian dalits by the makers of the Constitution of India under the influence of the Christian members of the Constituent assembly who claimed that caste discrimination did not exist among Christians. One of these was a Catholic priest. And now, over 60 years later, the Christian Churches are pressing to reverse this provision! Response: The above statement comes as a great revelation to me. Could Mr Borges kindly direct me to documents / literature / information where I could access this information? Regards, Marshall
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Santosh Helekar: I have enjoyed the discussions between Prof. Borges and others. What is especially rewarding to me is that they have relied on historical facts, common sense and reason. Driven by an unshakable bad habit, I have silently fact-checked all of the professor's assertions. It has been a fun experience for me. On the basis of this experience I have no doubt that he is on solid ground in making the statement that he has made below. Therefore, I cannot wait to read his response to the rhetorical question posed to him. Response: Mine was not a rhetorical question but a well intentioned query in the pursuit of knowledge. I consider myself fairly well-read and well-informed. I am aware that Fr Jerome D'Souza s.j. from Mangalore was a member of the Constituent Assembly and was offered reserved seats in Parliament for the Christian community. But the christian representatives and Fr Jerome turned down the offer stating that the community did not need any reservations and would like to stand tall and shoulder-to-shoulder with other Indians. The Christians placed their hopes, aspirations and security in the hands of other Indians, especially the majority Hindu community. In a major concession, the founding fathers and framers of the Constitution, in their far-sightedness, large-heartedness, and broad-mindedness provided Articles 25 30 to protect and preserve the culture and religion of religious and linguistic minorities. Such was the spirit of the framers and founding fathers of our nation. Hence, Prof Sebastian Borges' statement on the issue of reservations to dalit christians comes as a total revelation to me as I have never ever come across any such literature / information. In case there has been a gap in my knowledge, I would like to fill it up and update myself. I earnestly look forward to Prof Borges to enlighten me on this issue. Regards, Marshall
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
REPLY: Well put my man, let's await the response! I too did not see any rhetorics from your end. I too concur that you are well read and well informed and more importantly, very well balanced indeed. There was no bird brained output from you. On 28 August 2013 14:08, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Santosh Helekar: I have enjoyed the discussions between Prof. Borges and others. What is especially rewarding to me is that they have relied on historical facts, common sense and reason. Driven by an unshakable bad habit, I have silently fact-checked all of the professor's assertions. It has been a fun experience for me. On the basis of this experience I have no doubt that he is on solid ground in making the statement that he has made below. Therefore, I cannot wait to read his response to the rhetorical question posed to him. Response: Mine was not a rhetorical question but a well intentioned query in the pursuit of knowledge. I consider myself fairly well-read and well-informed. I am aware that Fr Jerome D'Souza s.j. from Mangalore was a member of the Constituent Assembly and was offered reserved seats in Parliament for the Christian community. But the christian representatives and Fr Jerome turned down the offer stating that the community did not need any reservations and would like to stand tall and shoulder-to-shoulder with other Indians. The Christians placed their hopes, aspirations and security in the hands of other Indians, especially the majority Hindu community. In a major concession, the founding fathers and framers of the Constitution, in their far-sightedness, large-heartedness, and broad-mindedness provided Articles 25 30 to protect and preserve the culture and religion of religious and linguistic minorities. Such was the spirit of the framers and founding fathers of our nation. Hence, Prof Sebastian Borges' statement on the issue of reservations to dalit christians comes as a total revelation to me as I have never ever come across any such literature / information. In case there has been a gap in my knowledge, I would like to fill it up and update myself. I earnestly look forward to Prof Borges to enlighten me on this issue. Regards, Marshall -- DEV BOREM KORUM Gabe Menezes.
Re: [Goanet] Mull ani Bull
I am sure Prof. Borges will provide the facts on the main issue of this thread. But on the peripheral issues of balance and rhetorics, I have to say that neither of the respondents below have ever shown any propensity for balance, especially when it comes to sectarian matters. This is evident even in the contents of the present posts and the proverbial bird flocking behavior on display. The fact that rhetoric was very much involved in the first case is obvious from the repeated use of the hyperbolic word revelation. Cheers, Santosh - Original Message - From: Gabe Menezes gabe.mene...@gmail.com REPLY: Well put my man, let's await the response! I too did not see any rhetorics from your end. I too concur that you are well read and well informed and more importantly, very well balanced indeed. There was no bird brained output from you. On 28 August 2013 14:08, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Response: Mine was not a rhetorical question but a well intentioned query in the pursuit of knowledge. I consider myself fairly well-read and well-informed. I am aware that Fr Jerome D'Souza s.j. from Mangalore was a member of the Constituent Assembly and was offered reserved seats in Parliament for the Christian community. But the christian representatives and Fr Jerome turned down the offer stating that the community did not need any reservations and would like to stand tall and shoulder-to-shoulder with other Indians. The Christians placed their hopes, aspirations and security in the hands of other Indians, especially the majority Hindu community. In a major concession, the founding fathers and framers of the Constitution, in their far-sightedness, large-heartedness, and broad-mindedness provided Articles 25 30 to protect and preserve the culture and religion of religious and linguistic minorities. Such was the spirit of the framers and founding fathers of our nation. Hence, Prof Sebastian Borges' statement on the issue of reservations to dalit christians comes as a total revelation to me as I have never ever come across any such literature / information. In case there has been a gap in my knowledge, I would like to fill it up and update myself. I earnestly look forward to Prof Borges to enlighten me on this issue. Regards, Marshall -- DEV BOREM KORUM Gabe Menezes.
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
There were a few Christian members in the Constituent Assembly. Prominent among these were Dr. H.C. Mookherjee (W. Bengal), Mr. Joseph Alban D'Souza (Bombay) and Rev. Jerome D'Souza SJ (Madras). It is difficult to guess whether Mookherjee, being a Protestant from Bengal, was acquainted with caste discrimination among Christians. JAD'Souza too might not have reckoned that the Caste distinction among Goan and Manglorean Catholics was serious enough to mar the egalitarian character of Christianity. But the same consideration cannot be given to the reverend, since there exist separate churches and cemeteries for dalits in Tamil Nadu to this day! But then, being a Catholic priest, he could not be expected to admit this fact. Moreover, it would have been a bad advertisement for the Faith, since it was the general impression that Scheduled caste Hindus converted to Christianity in order to escape the oppression by caste Hindus. Perhaps, I am putting the cart before the horse. The debates of the Constituent Assembly are very instructive in this regard. The necessity of reservations for the SCs was a general consensus. However, Mookherjee said that in a secular state minorities should not be recognised on the basis of religion. Christian masses, he said, are not interested in reservations; all they asked for was food, clothing, a shelter over their heads, medical aid and good roads. Their interests were secure in the hands of the majority community which had been very generous toevery one of the minority communities. He also felt that minorities would be wise to trust the majority community, and win its good-will if they wanted to live in peace and honour in this country.For this Dr. Mookherjee was hailed by Sardar Patel as the great patriotic Christian leader.Fr. Jeromereferred to the multiple signs of good-will on the part of the majority communityand fully backed Dr. Mookherjee in his decision that there should be no reservation of seats. According to him, a man is to be assisted because he is poor, because his birth and upbringing have not given him the opportunity to make progress, socially, politically and educationally; it should not matter whether he be a Christian, or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Brahmin or non-Brahmin, or a Scheduled Caste member. He went on to say that it is not we (the Christians) who are taking a risk, it is the majority community that is undertaking a responsibility! J A D'Souza does not appear to have participated in the debate. Some members like Guptanath Singh (Bihar) were more open-minded. He said that those classes who are the backbone of Indian society - agricultural, pastoral or artisan classes - though they are not counted as Scheduled Castes or Tribes should be given some opportunities to serve in government services. He proposed the addition of and such other castes who are educationally and socially backwardafter Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. But, unlike the Christian leaders, others were not as gullible. Like Christian Dalits, the Sikh Dalits too were excluded from reservations because, according to Sardar Patel, untouchability is not recognised in the Sikh religion. The Sikhs felt that if these Scheduled Castes who have been converted to Sikhism are not given the same benefits as the Scheduled Castes have been, there was a possibility of their reverting to the Hindu Scheduled Castes and merging along with them. Therefore, Sardar Hukam Singh, a Sikh leader from East Punjab, fought tooth and nail to overturn this in respect to four backward Sikh castes namely, the Mazhabis, Ramdasis, Kabirpanthis and Sikligars of East Punjab. And he succeeded! Had the Christian leaders, especially Fr. Jerome, adhered to the reality and followed the example of Hukam Singh, history would have been different. More details may be accessed at the following links: http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/790979/ http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol10p7a.htm It now transpires that Marshall knew all this. So why the question? If Articles 25 30 were a boon to the Christians, why are we fighting to obtain reservations for Dalit Christians today? Did these Dalits not exist in 1947? Sebastian Borges On 27 Aug 2013 2 Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Sebastian Borges: As far as special privileges by way of Reservations is concerned, let us not forget that an injustice was done to Christian dalits by the makers of the Constitution of India under the influence of the Christian members of the Constituent assembly who claimed that caste discrimination did not exist among Christians. One of these was a Catholic priest. And now, over 60 years later, the Christian Churches are pressing to reverse this provision! Response: The above statement comes as a great revelation to me. Could Mr Borges kindly direct me to documents / literature / information where I could access this information? Marshall Again on 28 Aug 2013 Marshall Mendonza
[Goanet] Mull ani Bull
Sebastian Borges: As far as special privileges by way of Reservations is concerned, let us not forget that an injustice was done to Christian dalits by the makers of the Constitution of India under the influence of the Christian members of the Constituent assembly who claimed that caste discrimination did not exist among Christians. One of these was a Catholic priest. And now, over 60 years later, the Christian Churches are pressing to reverse this provision! Response: The above statement comes as a great revelation to me. Could Mr Borges kindly direct me to documents / literature / information where I could access this information? Regards, Marshall
