Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S AAiyar(Times of India)
August 25, 2009 - Goanet's 15th Anniversary From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net Whether after consultation or not, it is dishonest to pretend to address human development while harming working people by preaching against outsourcing. ***The Holy Father is not against outsourcing, but against abuses of outsourcing... Anyone who finds outsourcing beneficial in their business but is not doing so because of the Pope is harming his or her business, by definition. ***You have not yet understood what the Holy Father is teaching. Fr. Ivo wrote: The Holy Father is right, whereas Mario is wrong. Benedict XVI did not end outsourcing (if outsourcing were to end), but guided it. Read the text before you criticise. If anyone followed his guidance at their cost, he did not do them any favors, and harmed those who would have received the outsourced jobs as well.. ***Then you are free to continue to do what you are doing... The shareholders own the company and no other stakeholders would benefit if it were not for them. So what if they have geographical mobility? The fact is that they have invested in a particular business which has to maximize its resources so that all the stakeholders can benefit in the long run. ***This is precisely what Benedict XVI is saying... In short, as I said earlier, Benedict XVI is not against outsourcing, but is appealing to responsibility towards all the stakeholders over mere profitability of shareholders... Mario responds: There would be no successful stakeholders without successful shareholders making mere profits. ***If all profit, then it is correct according to Benedict XVI. Memo to Goanetters: Please note that Fr. Ivo and Pope's JP II and Benny have never had to make anything so crass as mere profits. ***If the Church (priests, convents or monasteries) makes profit, you will say that they are concerned with money affairs... As a businessman myself, the Vatican can PLEASE keep it's guidance to itself and use it in any businesses it owns. Listening to their non-expert advice would hamper my business. ***You can follow your ways, please... Donations will come from evwerywhere. You can offer him shoes bought in Dharavi and insure seats in heaven... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
August 25, 2009 - Goanet's 15th Anniversary From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net In my opinion, the Pope was assuming he knew better what was good for everyone else when he made his comments in the encyclical. In economics, he doesn't. Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 00:34:57 -0700 From: isouza icso...@sancharnet.in When Benedict XVI is writing on integral human development, he certainly knows more than you and I. Mario responds: Speak for yourself, Fr. Ivo:-)) Real human development has progressed the most for the most people most of the time when people followed their own free market instincts, not by what any Pope or other elitist like Karl Marx thought who has never had to decide what products to make or sell, never hired people in a business, never had to pay them every month from the cash flow of the business, never had to worry about making a profit for the business, and knows beans about economics or the pros and cons of outsourcing. This would be as bogus as a Pope preaching about day-to-day marital relations as part of human development. Fr. Ivo wrote: Rather than teaching technical economics Benedict XVI is teaching how love can solve the problems of the nations. Love-caritas- is an extraordinary force which leads people to opt for courageous and generous engagement in the field of justice and peace. Mario observes: Unfortunately, while love may make the world go round, Pope Benny's love doesn't seem to include those who would lose their livelyhoods if outsourcing were to end because of Pope Benny trying to put some bogus moral guilt trip on business owners. Real economic justice and peace comes from stable economies where people have stable employment and are free to buy and sell products and services and run their businesses without coercion by the heavy hand of government or the Vatican. If the Vatican wants REAL economic justice and peace it should lecture governments to get out of the way of their business enterprises, and focus on helping them with reasonable tax policies and the best infrastructure and security systems possible so that they are free to conduct their businesses more easily and without fear. In such an environment private charities spring up to help those members of the society who are unable to help themselves.
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S AAiyar(Times of India)
August 25, 2009 - Goanet's 15th Anniversary From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 00:34:57 -0700 From: isouza icso...@sancharnet.in When Benedict XVI is writing on integral human development, he certainly knows more than you and I. Mario responds: Speak for yourself, Fr. Ivo:-)) ***There is no need to be a professional economist or politician to know what it is dishonest behaviour in economic or political fields. The Holy Father will never speak on economics or politics without consulting experts in economics and politics... Real human development has progressed the most for the most people most of the time when people followed their own free market instincts, not by what any Pope or other elitist like Karl Marx thought who has never had to decide what products to make or sell, never hired people in a business, never had to pay them every month from the cash flow of the business, never had to worry about making a profit for the business, and knows beans about economics or the pros and cons of outsourcing. *** Free market instincst... Karl Marx ...elitist... sell our products, learnthe tricks of the trade, pay justly and honestly your workers, make porfit in your business. The businessmen will learn all this in their day to day life. Not all of them are graduated in economics or politics. You can see how well the Goan politicians are doing without even S.S.C... They would have been successful and really responsible to the Goan people if they had followed the principles laid by the Church in her Social Encyclicals... This would be as bogus as a Pope preaching about day-to-day marital relations as part of human development. ***That is what John Paul II did throughout his life, and the married couples are grateful to him. The Youth still remember him. Fr. Ivo wrote: Rather than teaching technical economics Benedict XVI is teaching how love can solve the problems of the nations. Love-caritas- is an extraordinary force which leads people to opt for courageous and generous engagement in the field of justice and peace. Mario observes: Unfortunately, while love may make the world go round, Pope Benny's love doesn't seem to include those who would lose their livelyhoods if outsourcing were to end because of Pope Benny trying to put some bogus moral guilt trip on business owners. *** The Holy Father is right, whereas Mario is wrong. Benedict XVI did not end outsourcing (if outsourcing were to end), but guided it. Read the text before you criticise. ...Moreover, the so-called outsourcing of production can weaken the company's sense of responsibility towards the stakeholders - namely the workers, the suppliers, the consumers, the natural environment and broader society - in favour of the shareholders, who are not tied to a specific geographical area and who therefore enjoy extraordinary mobility. Today's international capital market offers great freedom of action. Yet there is also increasing awareness of the need for greater social responsibility on the part of business. Even if the ethical considerations that currently inform debate on the social responsibility of the corporate world are not all acceptable from the perspective of the Church's social doctrine, there is nevertheless a growing conviction that business management cannot concern itself only with the interests of the proprietors, but must also assume responsibility for all the other stakeholders who contribute to the life of the business: the workers, the clients, the suppliers of various elements of production, the community of reference... Paul VI invited people to give serious attention to the damage that can be caused to one's home country by the transfer abroad of capital purely for personal advantage[95]. John Paul II taught that investment always has moral, as well as economic significance[96]. All this - it should be stressed - is still valid today, despite the fact that the capital market has been significantly liberalized, and modern technological thinking can suggest that investment is merely a technical act, not a human and ethical one. There is no reason to deny that a certain amount of capital can do good, if invested abroad rather than at home. Yet the requirements of justice must be safeguarded, with due consideration for the way in which the capital was generated and the harm to individuals that will result if it is not used where it was produced[97]. (CV no.40). In short, as I said earlier, Benedict XVI is not against outsourcing, but is appealing to responsibility towards all the stakeholders over mere profitability of shareholders... Real economic justice and peace comes from stable economies where people have stable employment and are free to buy and sell products and services and run
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S AAiyar(Times of India)
August 25, 2009 - Goanet's 15th Anniversary From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net In my opinion, the Pope was assuming he knew better what was good for everyone else when he made his comments in the encyclical. In economics, he doesn't. ***When Benedict XVI is writing on integral human development, he certainly knows more than you and I. Caritas in Veritate is the recent addition to the Church's Social Teaching. It is making ripples, it was released at a time when the whole world is reeling under the baneful economic crisis. The Holy Father presents it as a new and efficacious paradigm of development that will ensure the integral uplift of humankind and will effectively salvage humanity from the current economic crisis. In this encyclical, Benedict XVI revisits the teachings of Paul VI on integral human development--he reaffirms the relevance of Populorum Progressio, calling it the Rerum Novarum of the present age. He emphasizes and reiterates the 'inclusive' development that Paul VI envisoned, namely man's complete development and the development of all humankind. Love in truth is the principal driving force behind the authentic development of every person and of all humanity. In his encyclical letter, the Holy Father focuses on the principles essential for authentic human development and underscores the social themes vital to the well-being of humanity. Such key-principles of Catholic Social Teaching as solidarity, the common good, universal destination of goods, participation, subsidiarity, human dignity and the unity of the human family have also been sufficiently emphasized. In short, the Holy Father has aptly demonstrated to the world that the Church is indeed an expert in humanity. Rather than teaching technical economics Benedict XVI is teaching how love can solve the problems of the nations. Love-caritas- is an extraordinary force which leads people to opt for courageous and generous engagement in the field of justice and peace. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
August 20 - WORLD GOA DAY Celebrating the inclusion of Konkani in the 8th schedule of the Indian Constitution on August 20, 1992 For a list of World Goa Day events see: http://worldgoaday2009.blogspot.com 2009/8/19 Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net: False. The real kamaal is Bosco's single-minded obsession with this person, Aiyar-ji, while the discussion has passed him by:-)) What are you'll Bambai-ised, Hindi-ised Goenkars talking about? I have no problem with diversity, but I just can't follow your kamaal, camel, kamal dialogue here! Please could someone offer an English-to-English translation :-) FN -- FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490 Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/ Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S AAiyar(Times of India)
August 20 - WORLD GOA DAY Celebrating the inclusion of Konkani in the 8th schedule of the Indian Constitution on August 20, 1992 For a list of World Goa Day events see: http://worldgoaday2009.blogspot.com 2009/8/19 Gabe Menezes gabe.mene...@gmail.com How do they train themselves to be so impervious to reality? http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-republicans-religion-and-t Seems like a screwed up link, so try this one out:- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-republican-party-is-t_b_262594.html If not successful please copy paste...How to they train themselves. and Google it. Now we can appreciate the effect of the Moon (Luna) on the minds of people suffering Bipolar, check out this one, which seems more appropriate:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypomania It was at the Mezza Luna L.A. that they had a Pizza and saltimbocca, Sicilian style...had Campari soda as an aperitif, quaffed Chianti and finished off with Marsala wine - not least but last some strange drink called Sambuca with a few Coffee beans and had at light to it! Then O.J. went on the rampage (allegedly) and had the couple well and truly done in. All the while they tell you that they are sane :-(( ; like a caged dog, gone potty. Family should realise that weekends alone are not a solution. Seems to me a case gone too far for any sort of correction. Amen. Gabe
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
August 20 - WORLD GOA DAY Celebrating the inclusion of Konkani in the 8th schedule of the Indian Constitution on August 20, 1992 For a list of World Goa Day events see: http://worldgoaday2009.blogspot.com Bosco wrote: #1) What has Zimbabwe, N. Korea, etc have to do with the Pope in this instance? Or even Aiyar-ji for that matter. Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:18:36 +0100 From: Gabe Menezes gabe.mene...@gmail.com How do they train themselves to be so impervious to reality? http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-republicans-religion-and-t Mario observes: Hey, Gabe, It would help if you posted a complete URL, but I was able to find the article anyway and found it filled with untruths and half truths. The column you have posted has nothing to do with either the topic of this thread or Bosco's comment that you have referenced, which, unbeknownst to you, I have answered in another post. The article is just another in a long list of scurrilous articles that the left wing Independent is famous for. Here are just a few of the more egregious examples: Excerpt: Since Obama's rise, the US right has been skipping frantically from one fantasy to another, like a person in the throes of a mental breakdown. It started when they claimed he was a secret Muslim, and – at the same time – that he was a member of a black nationalist church that hated white people. Mario responds: According to its title, this column is supposed to be about Republicans. Here we see the the author jumping to using the general term the US right, who may or may not be Republicans. I know many Republicans and I would like Johann Hari or Gabe to show us some evidence of a comment by any Republican official that Obama was any kind of Muslim, secret or not. The facts are that Obama said in his memoires that his father was an atheist, then, before he went to Saudi Arabia to genuflect before Kind Abdullah, he suddenly said he had Muslim roots and many memories of experiencing Muslim culture as a youth in Indonesia, which he had also previously swept under the rug. The second part is true, regardless of whether any Republican said it or not. Obama was a member for 20 years of one of the most viciously radical anti-American and anti-Jewish churches in Chicago, which he also tried to deny until outed by the Pastor who said Obama would say anything to get elected. Excerpt: Then, once these arguments were rejected and Obama won, they began to argue that he was born in Kenya and secretly smuggled into the United States as a baby, and the Hawaiian authorities conspired to fake his US birth certificate. So he is ineligible to rule and the office of President should pass to... the Republican runner-up, John McCain. Mario responds: Johann Hari either does not know or deliberately left out the fact that the person who first questioned Obama's status as a natural born American was a Democrat who was once an Assistant Attorney General in Pennsylvania and a Hillary Clinton supporter and has a web site: www.obamacrimes.com This started well before the election so Mr. Hari is wrong again when he says it started after Obama won. However, some Republicans have questioned why Obama, if he has nothing to hide, has not released his original birth certificate but a proxy document which is not the same thing. Johann Hari also displays his ignorance because a) Obama being born in Kenya to an obviously American mother would not have invalidated his natural born American status unless his mother had renounced her citizenship, and there is no evidence that she did. For example, John McCain was born in Panama. b) If Obama was disqualified for any reason the Presidency would not pass to John McCain but to the comical Vice President Joe Biden. Excerpt: These aren't fringe phenomena: a Research 200 poll found that a majority of Republicans and Southerners say Obama wasn't born in the US, or aren't sure. Mario responds: This is just flat out false. The author uses another scurrilous journalistic trick by lumping Republicans and Southerners thus no one can tell what exactly he is referring to because one is a political party and the other is a geographical region. The Research 200 poll, a fringe poll which is not used by mainstream organizations, actually showed that a majority of Republicans polled believed Obama was born in the US, so this is another flat out falsehood by the author. Excerpt: This trend has reached its apotheosis this summer with the Republican Party now claiming en masse that Obama wants to set up death panels to euthanise the old and disabled. Yes: Sarah Palin really has claimed – with a straight face – that Barack Obama wants to
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Apartment for sale in Campal/Miramar area, Panaji, Goa. Spacious 3 bedroom flat (3BHK)available for sale in upscale area near Miramar beach Contact: goaengineer...@aol.com From: Mario Goveia The economically weakest nations, like Zimbabwe and many other African nations, many Latin American nations, and Cuba and N. Korea, are economic basket cases because of their own corruption, oppression and incompetent internal policies which assume that a small number of powerful elites know what's good for everyone else, better than they do. Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 23:59:05 -0400 From: Bosco D'Mello bos...@canada.com #1) What has Zimbabwe, N. Korea, etc have to do with the Pope in this instance? Or even Aiyar-ji for that matter. Mario responds: The clue lies in the last 20 or so words of the excerpt shown above of what I wrote. In my opinion, the Pope was assuming he knew better what was good for everyone else when he made his comments in the encyclical. In economics, he doesn't. On reconsideration, and after much prayer, fasting and abstinence, I see that I should have made the connection more clear. So, you are correct in raising the question because to figure it out on your own would take adding two and two to make the connection:-)). Aiyar-ji, on the other hand, is your obsession. In my original response, which sent you careening into space, where you may still be, I did not even mention him. To see this and avoid doing a Marlon in future, please re-read: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-August/181161.html Bosco wrote: #2) I suppose the 'powerful elites' referred to above also include the avaricious pinheads on Wall Street who have sucked trillions of dollars of the tax-payers dollars. Mario responds: No, these avaricious capitalists don't fit into this discussion, because I don't believe they presume to know what's good for everyone else better than they do. On the other hand, the decision to bail them out was pushed by people like Henry Paulson who thought they knew what was good for everyone else, and was an unfortunate decision should have not been made by Bush. It was one of his biggest mistakes. Under free market principles, not to bail them out would have been better for everyone else in the longer run. Other banks and investment banks that were better run would have quickly acquired the ones that could not make it. The owners and managers of the failed banks would have paid a heavy price for their serious mistakes, which is how the free market cleanses itself. Bosco wrote: #3) Weeks later, Aiyar-ji continues to confound Mario-G. Kamaal hai!! Mario observes: False. The real kamaal is Bosco's single-minded obsession with this person, Aiyar-ji, while the discussion has passed him by:-)) Aiyar-ji has never featured in any of my opinions on this subject. The only mention I have made of this person is to point this out when Bosco keeps bringing him up.
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S AAiyar(Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Apartment for sale in Campal/Miramar area, Panaji, Goa. Spacious 3 bedroom flat (3BHK)available for sale in upscale area near Miramar beach Contact: goaengineer...@aol.com 2009/8/18 Bosco D'Mello bos...@canada.com RESPONSE: #1) What has Zimbabwe, N. Korea, etc have to do with the Pope in this instance? Or even Aiyar-ji for that matter. - B How do they train themselves to be so impervious to reality? http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-republicans-religion-and-t -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London.
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S AAiyar(Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Apartment for sale in Campal/Miramar area, Panaji, Goa. Spacious 3 bedroom flat (3BHK)available for sale in upscale area near Miramar beach Contact: goaengineer...@aol.com -Original Message- From: Mario Goveia The economically weakest nations, like Zimbabwe and many other African nations, many Latin American nations, and Cuba and N. Korea, are economic basket cases because of their own corruption, oppression and incompetent internal policies which assume that a small number of powerful elites know what's good for everyone else, better than they do. RESPONSE: #1) What has Zimbabwe, N. Korea, etc have to do with the Pope in this instance? Or even Aiyar-ji for that matter. #2) I suppose the 'powerful elites' referred to above also include the avaricious pinheads on Wall Street who have sucked trillions of dollars of the tax-payers dollars. #3) Weeks later, Aiyar-ji continues to confound Mario-G. Kamaal hai!! - B
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Apartment for sale in Campal/Miramar area, Panaji, Goa. Spacious 3 bedroom flat (3BHK)available for sale in upscale area near Miramar beach Contact: goaengineer...@aol.com From: Frederick [FN] Noronha I don't think the Church has a job in supporting capitalism, moderate or otherwise. There was a time when the Church also made the mistake of thinking it could ride the tigers of colonialism and slavery. History proved it wrong. FN Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 11:48:11 -0700 From: isouza icso...@sancharnet.in Regarding colonialism and slavery: The Church always opposed racial slavery. Mario observes: Since most slavery throughout history was not racial but misguided economics, I wonder why the Church always opposed only racial slavery. Fred, whose favorite philosopher is Karl Marx whose anti-capitalist theories were antithetical to religion and religious freedom, writes that he doesn't think the Church has a job in supporting capitalism. Does Fred think the Vatican is surviving on donations from the wilting fruits of socialism? The Vatican should stay the heck out of economics because it is simply not its job. Even the Bible distinguished between God and Shiv..., ...er, Caesar. However, as part of its legitimate role in promoting religion, religious freedom, political freedom, maximizing one's natural gifts as the Bible teaches, and providing a better quality of life for the downtrodden, if the Vatican supports anything it should be supporting capitalism for three reasons: a) The more capitalist the country the better the quality of life for more people most of the time than any other system yet devised, while also preserving political freedoms for its citizens. b) Capitalist leaning countries also have guarantees of religious freedom, or the freedom to not follow any particular religion. c) The citizens of capitalist leaning countries provide the Vatican with a cushy lifestyle and clerics in general with most of the income that enables them to do whatever they do.
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
- BOOK RELEASE: Medieval Goa by Teotonio R. de Souza Will be re-released after 30 years on August 21, 2009 at 5:15pm at Goa Chambers of Commerce and Industry Hall, near Azad Maidan in Panjim, Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com - Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:32:23 -0700 From: isouza icso...@sancharnet.in The Church has the competence to criticise any social or economic or political systems. The Church does not give economic or political solutions, but can guide them. The common good is the key criterion for all economic activity. An international authority is needed to protect the weak nations. Mario responds: The Church has no competence or credibility in economic situations as the recent encyclical clearly proves and thus no experience or ability to guide these either. The Church depends on the largesse of its members who provide for the Church from the fruits of their own labor and ingenuity and enterprise. For the Pope to lecture anyone on economics is about as credible as the Pope lecturing anyone on how to have better marital relations. The common good is not served by gratuitous and incompetent advice by people who make their living not by providing goods and services, but from providing moral leadership - most of the time - and living off the generosity and the fruits of the enterprise of others. The economically weakest nations, like Zimbabwe and many other African nations, many Latin American nations, and Cuba and N. Korea, are economic basket cases because of their own corruption, oppression and incompetent internal policies which assume that a small number of powerful elites know what's good for everyone else, better than they do.
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing
From: Frederick [FN] Noronha * fredericknoro...@gmail.com I don't think the Church has a job in supporting capitalism, moderate or otherwise. There was a time when the Church also made the mistake of thinking it could ride the tigers of colonialism and slavery. History proved it wrong. FN ***The Church has competence in all human issues. The Church does not have a job of supporting capitalism, but of criticising capitalism in the light of the Word of God. Regarding colonialism and slavery: The Church always opposed racial slavery. St.Paul fought against slavery, not just by denouncing it, but by permeating the society with Christian vision and mission. In his lettr to Philemon, Paul tells him to accept back his slave Onesimus and to treat him as a brother in the Lord (cf.Phlm 1:16: no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother). God is the Judge and he will judge the oppressors (cf.Col 4:1). The Church has changed all these institutions. Missionaries fought against racial slavery and genocide. There is another type of slavery: This was tolerated. The Catholic Church has been accused of being either silent or approved of slavery.another grave scandal before 1890. Even though repugnant to our modern sensitivity, servitude is not always unjust, such as penal servitude for convicted criminals or servitude freely chosen for personal financial reasons. These forms are called just-title servitude. The Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which brought an end to racial slavery in the U.S., does allow for just-title servitude to punish criminals: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Also the 1949 Geneva Conventions allow for detaining power to use the labour of war prisoners under very limiting circumstances. However, such circumstances are very rare today. During biblical times, a man could voluntarily sell himself into slavery in order to pay off his debts (Deut. 15:12-18). But such slaves were to be freed on the seventh year or the Jubilee year (Lev. 25:54). The Church tolerated just-title servitude for a time because it is not wrong in itself, though it can be seriously abused. The Popes did, however, consistently oppose racial slavery which completely lacks any moral justification. Now we usually think of slavery in terms of innocent people who were unjustly captured and reduced to beasts of burden due solely to their race. This was the most common form in the U.S. before the Thirteenth Amendment. This form of slavery, known as racial slavery, began in large-scale during the 15th century and was formally condemned by the Popes as early as 1435, fifty-seven years before Columbus discovered America (1492). In 1404, the Spanish discovered the Canary Islands. They began to colonize the island and enslave its people. Pope Eugene IV in 1435 wrote to Bishop Ferdinand of Lanzarote in his Bull, Sicut Dudum: ...They have deprived the natives of their property or turned it to their own use, and have subjected some of the inhabitants of said islands to perpetual slavery, sold them to other persons and committed other various illicit and evil deeds against them... We order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex that, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their earlier liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands...who have been made subject to slavery. These people are to be totally and perpetually free and are to be let go without the exaction or reception of any money... He does condemn together this particular case of slavery along with other various illicit and evil deeds. A century later, the Spanish and Portuguese were colonizing South America. Unfortunately the practice of slavery did not end. Pope Paul III in 1537 issued a Bull against slavery, entitled Sublimis Deus, to the universal Church. Pope Paul not only condemned the slavery of Red Indians but also all other peoples. In his phrase unheard of before now, he seems to see a difference between this new form of slavery (i.e. racial slavery) and the ancient forms of just-title slavery. Popes Gregory XIV (Cum Sicuti, 1591), Urban VIII (Commissum Nobis, 1639) and Benedict XIV (Immensa Pastorum, 1741) also condemned slavery and the slave trade. In 1839, Pope Gregory XVI issued a Bull, entitled In Supremo. Its main focus was against slave trading, but it also clearly condemned racial slavery. Colonialism is a historic process of discovery (Age of Discovery). The Church has spread Christian vision and civilized the whole world. It is her duty. But there were voices against all abuses of slavery. Antonio de Montesinos, a Dominican friar on the
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S AAiyar(Times of India)
From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net Stick to religion and helping the poor, and stay the hell away from economics. From: George Pinto I am surprised Aiyar writes an article without quoting the actual piece he takes exception to. Thu, 6 Aug 2009 01:27:22 -0400 From: Bosco D'Mello bos...@canada.com Oops!! Looks like Aiyar-ji did a number on Mario-G!! Best advice is gratuituous advice from Mario-G!! Fulfilled his daily quota, all without reading any facts!! Mario responds: Ooops! Looks like Bosco has stepped in cow-cakes again:-)) He apparently knows about as much about the Vatican's attitude towards economics as he does about medical waiting lists in Canada:-)) I wonder what part of my comments above did Bosco fail to understand? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/world/europe/08pope.html Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday called for a radical rethinking of the global economy, criticizing a growing divide between rich and poor and urging the establishment of a “true world political authority” to oversee the economy and work for the “common good.” He criticized the current economic system, “where the pernicious effects of sin are evident,” and urged financiers in particular to “rediscover the genuinely ethical foundation of their activity.” ***The Church has the competence to criticise any social or economic or political systems. The Church does not give economic or political solutions, but can guide them. The common good is the key criterion for all economic activity. An international authority is needed to protect the weak nations. And, http://www.indiancatholic.in/news/storydetails.php/12752-1-6-Pope%E2%80%99s-Encyclical-creates-fear-in-outsourcing-industry-in-India According to Raman Roy, a pioneer in outsourcing industry in India the recent encyclical by the Pope seems to be questioning the adverse effect of Outsourcing in the world market and the economies of the western countries. The Pope writes in the Encyclical, “The so-called outsourcing of production can weaken the company’s sense of responsibility towards the stakeholders — namely the workers, the suppliers, the consumers, the natural environment and broader society — in favour of the shareholders, who are not tied to a specific geographical area and who, therefore, enjoy extraordinary mobility.” ***Benedict XVI is not against outsourcing, but is appealing to responsibility towards all the stakeholders over mere profitability of shareholders... And: http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=14970 The Caritas in Veritate encyclical, overdue by a couple of months reportedly due to difficulties encountered in translating to Latin, underscores the need for a system with three subjects: the market, the State and civil society, to civilising of the economy, the Vatican Information Service said, quoting from the text. The encyclical is Benedict's third. Filled with terms like globalisation, market economy, outsourcing, labour unions and alternative energy,, the New York Times reported, it is not surprising that the Italian media reported that the Vatican was having difficulty translating the 144 page document into Latin. ***Benedict XVI could not write on economic issues without using the terms globalisation, market economy, outsourcing, labour union or alternative energy so as to continue the Social Teaching of the Church started by Leo XIII on May, 15, 1891, and continued by all the successive Popes till Paul VI with his enc.Populorum Progressio on March 26, 1967, which has been deepened and applied to the modern changed situation in his enc.Caritas in Veritate. Regards. Fr.Ivo See CV, no.40: Today's international economic scene, marked by grave deviations and failures, requires a profoundly new way of understanding business enterprise. Old models are disappearing, but promising new ones are taking shape on the horizon. Without doubt, one of the greatest risks for businesses is that they are almost exclusively answerable to their investors, thereby limiting their social value. Owing to their growth in scale and the need for more and more capital, it is becoming increasingly rare for business enterprises to be in the hands of a stable director who feels responsible in the long term, not just the short term, for the life and the results of his company, and it is becoming increasingly rare for businesses to depend on a single territory. Moreover, the so-called outsourcing of production can weaken the company's sense of responsibility towards the stakeholders — namely the workers, the suppliers, the consumers, the natural environment and broader society — in favour of the shareholders, who are not tied to a specific geographical area and who therefore enjoy extraordinary mobility. Today's international capital market offers great freedom of action. Yet there is also increasing awareness of the need for greater social responsibility on the part of business. Even if the
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
- Goanetter Francis Rodrigues (Vasco/Toronto) book launch in London, England @ the World Goa Day festivities on 15 Aug at 7pm Details http://www.konkanisongbook.com - Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:13:57 -0700 From: isouza icso...@sancharnet.in Religion should guide business. We should criticise globalization and capitalism, when the system harms the lesser humans... Globalization has its strong and weak points. Capitalism should be moderate. Otherwise, social justice is not met in human relationships... Mario observes: These comments show the typical ignorance of how capitalism works. True capitalism is based on free market economics, which means that no government or religious leader decides what's good for everyone else and what constitutes social justice. Each individual does what they believe is in their own long term interest, which includes being considerate towards the welfare of others, i.e. social justice, not because some bureaucrat or religious leader thinks its a good idea, but because it is good for the individual. Thus individuals will decide by their decisions and actions if globalization has strong and weak points in their case, which is something they evaluate in everything they do. Capitalism is moderate and socially conscious by definition, because being immoderate and socially unconscious is not good for the capitalist. The numerous capitalists who are now either out of business or rotting in jail all forgot that key lesson. Here is a concise explanation of how this works in practice. http://www.creators.com/opinion/walter-williams/economic-miracle.html BTW, there is no pure capitalist system in the world today because of interference by politicians who think they know what's good for everyone else, better than they do. Countries today are on a spectrum which ranges from capitalism on one end and socialism on the other. In actual practice, the more capitalism in a country the better the quality of life for the most people for the longest time. The economic resurgence of India and China after 50 wasted years of extreme socialism and communism is a classic example. Some of the fruits of capitalism can be squandered however, by corruption, which is what we can see for ourselves in India, including in Goa. Fr. Ivo wrote: This advice [for the Vatican to keep its nose out of economics] is faulty. Precisely the Holy Father is teaching the world how to improve the quality of life through genuine economic activity. Mario responds: The Pope has nothing to teach the world about how capitalism works, and his recent encyclical proves it beyond any doubt. Capitalism takes care of improving the quality of life in its sphere of influence it for it's own benefit, not because someone else thinks it is a good idea. This can be observed by examining the relative quality of life in countries that are closer to the capitalism end of the economic scale, where the quality of life is far superior to those countries that are closer to the socialist end.
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
- Goanetter Francis Rodrigues (Vasco/Toronto) book launch in London, England @ the World Goa Day festivities on 15 Aug at 7pm Details http://www.konkanisongbook.com - From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar Sunday August 02, 2009 Religion and business rarely mix well. This shows up in the encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI. The encyclical generally supports globalization, but criticizes western companies that outsource business to developing countries. ***Religion should guide business. We should criticise globalization and capitalism, when the system harms the lesser humans... Globalization has its strong and weak points. Capitalism should be moderate. Otherwise, social justice is not met in human relationships... The Pope should be thankful for their largesse or he may have to find a job and do some useful work that generates an income:-)) ***The Holy Father has enough jobs, his mission is large and his work is for the universal Church and for the world at large. He does not need another job for his income... My advice to the Vatican, Stick to religion and helping the poor, and stay the hell away from economics. ***This advice is faulty. Precisely the Holy Father is teaching the world how to improve the quality of life through genuine economic activity. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
- Goanetter Francis Rodrigues (Vasco/Toronto) book launch in London, England @ the World Goa Day festivities on 15 Aug at 7pm Details http://www.konkanisongbook.com - I don't think the Church has a job in supporting capitalism, moderate or otherwise. There was a time when the Church also made the mistake of thinking it could ride the tigers of colonialism and slavery. History proved it wrong. FN 2009/8/14 isouza icso...@sancharnet.in: Capitalism should be moderate. Otherwise, social justice is not met in human relationships... -- FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490 Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/ Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
From: Mario Goveia Ooops! Looks like Bosco has stepped in cow-cakes again:-)) I wonder what part of my comments above did Bosco fail to understand? Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 00:40:54 -0400 From: Bosco D'Mello bos...@canada.com The same part that Mario fails to understand; stuff that he writes. Same part. Mario located more people like him, more people that Aiyar-ji did a number on!! Mario responds: What is Bosco prattling on about? It looks like he is still trying to get out of the cow cakes he stepped in and still does not seem to understand a word of what I said in my post: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-August/181161.html I took issue with the Vatican's incursion into economics, and never even mentioned Aiyar-ji in my initial comments on the subject. My comments were only about the Vatican and economics. Bosco is hung up on Aiyar-ji, so I showed several other independant sources who have never heard of Aiyar-ji, that made my point that the Vatican had made bogus economic pronunciations in its encyclical. Bosco has written nothing so far to rebutt my conclusions or anything specific to defend why the Vatican strays into economics which is not its field of expertise. Bosco wrote: I hope Carmen does not take Mario's pomposity seriously. Mario responds: Mario's never-humble responses to Carmen, or anyone else on Goanet, stand on the facts and common sense he presents, and not on factless and illogical imitations of the Goan crab mentality, with have nothing specific to say about the topic under discussion.
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S AAiyar(Times of India)
- Goanetter Francis Rodrigues (Vasco/Toronto) unveils his book, The Greatest Konkani Song Hits. Launch dates: Goa (Kala Academy) on 9 Aug. 4 pm. U.K. (Staines) on 15 Aug. Canada on 20 Aug and US on 30 Aug. Details http://www.konkanisongbook.com/ - -Original Message- From: Mario Goveia Ooops! Looks like Bosco has stepped in cow-cakes again:-)) RESPONSE: Wht?? Mario located more people like him, more people that Aiyar-ji did a number on!! Shabash!!! And Mario is yet to read the referenced 48-page encyclical from the Pope. Shabash again!!! I wonder what part of my comments above did Bosco fail to understand? RESPONSE: The same part that Mario fails to understand; stuff that he writes. Same part. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/world/europe/08pope.html http://www.indiancatholic.in/news/storydetails.php/12752-1-6-Pope%E2%80%99s-Encyclical-creates-fear-in-outsourcing-industry-in-India http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=14970 RESPONSE: And why all these links?? Mario has already been crowned the top cut-and-paste artist here while at the same time having close to zero knowledge about what he writes about. Numero Uno!!!. Mind you with all these links he is forwarding from the anti-Bush liberal media, perhaps he is like the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing [1] - lambasting Obama while being a local campaign manager propping up the Dems. I hope Carmen does not take Mario's pomposity seriously. He is after all the voice of the top cut-and-paste artist. He is best at taking jabs at fellow Goanetters. Does it on a daily basis. He ensures we see his name four times each day except on weekends. Whaaat?? Ohh!! You are welcome, Mario!! I know you like cup-cakes! - B [1] - Wolf In Sheep's Clothing by This Providence
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html -Original Message- From: George Pinto I am surprised Aiyar writes an article without quoting the actual piece he takes exception to. Here is the link to the Pope's encyclical, CHARITY IN TRUTH http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html -Original Message- From: Mario Goveia The Vatican's business is religion and morals. When they wade into economics and business they can be as moronic as Karl Marx, the Nehru family, Fidel and Raul Castro. Who the hell does Pope Benny think pays for his Gucci shoes and opulent palaces and royal lifestyle.. The Pope should be thankful for their largesse or he may have to find a job and do some useful work that generates an income My advice to the Vatican, Stick to religion and helping the poor, and stay the hell away from economics. RESPONSE: Oops!! Looks like Aiyar-ji did a number on Mario-G!! Best advice is gratuituous advice from Mario-G!! Fulfilled his daily quota, all without reading any facts!! - B
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Goanetter Francis Rodrigues (Vasco/Toronto) unveils his book The Greatest Konkani Song Hits. Launch dates: Goa (Kala Academy) on 9 Aug. 4 pm. U.K. (Staines) on 15 Aug. Canada on 20 Aug and US on 30 Aug. Details http://www.konkanisongbook.com/ 2009/8/6 Bosco D'Mello bos...@canada.com -Original Message- From: George Pinto I am surprised Aiyar writes an article without quoting the actual piece he takes exception to. Here is the link to the Pope's encyclical, CHARITY IN TRUTH http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html -Original Message- From: Mario Goveia The Vatican's business is religion and morals. When they wade into economics and business they can be as moronic as Karl Marx, the Nehru family, Fidel and Raul Castro. Who the hell does Pope Benny think pays for his Gucci shoes and opulent palaces and royal lifestyle.. The Pope should be thankful for their largesse or he may have to find a job and do some useful work that generates an income My advice to the Vatican, Stick to religion and helping the poor, and stay the hell away from economics. RESPONSE: Oops!! Looks like Aiyar-ji did a number on Mario-G!! Best advice is gratuituous advice from Mario-G!! Fulfilled his daily quota, all without reading any facts!! - B QUESTION: The sole voice of reason, puts foot in mouth, it is entertainment but I'd rather pay some money and go watch the proms. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London.
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
- Goanetter Francis Rodrigues (Vasco/Toronto) unveils his book, The Greatest Konkani Song Hits. Launch dates: Goa (Kala Academy) on 9 Aug. 4 pm. U.K. (Staines) on 15 Aug. Canada on 20 Aug and US on 30 Aug. Details http://www.konkanisongbook.com/ - From: Mario Goveia The Vatican's business is religion and morals. When they wade into economics and business they can be as moronic as Karl Marx, the Nehru family, Fidel and Raul Castro. My advice to the Vatican, Stick to religion and helping the poor, and stay the hell away from economics. From: George Pinto I am surprised Aiyar writes an article without quoting the actual piece he takes exception to. Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 01:27:22 -0400 From: Bosco D'Mello bos...@canada.com Oops!! Looks like Aiyar-ji did a number on Mario-G!! Best advice is gratuituous advice from Mario-G!! Fulfilled his daily quota, all without reading any facts!! Mario responds: Ooops! Looks like Bosco has stepped in cow-cakes again:-)) He apparently knows about as much about the Vatican's attitude towards economics as he does about medical waiting lists in Canada:-)) I wonder what part of my comments above did Bosco fail to understand? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/world/europe/08pope.html Excerpt: Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday called for a radical rethinking of the global economy, criticizing a growing divide between rich and poor and urging the establishment of a “true world political authority” to oversee the economy and work for the “common good.” He criticized the current economic system, “where the pernicious effects of sin are evident,” and urged financiers in particular to “rediscover the genuinely ethical foundation of their activity.” [end of excerpt] And, http://www.indiancatholic.in/news/storydetails.php/12752-1-6-Pope%E2%80%99s-Encyclical-creates-fear-in-outsourcing-industry-in-India Excerpt: According to Raman Roy, a pioneer in outsourcing industry in India the recent encyclical by the Pope seems to be questioning the adverse effect of Outsourcing in the world market and the economies of the western countries. The Pope writes in the Encyclical, “The so-called outsourcing of production can weaken the company’s sense of responsibility towards the stakeholders — namely the workers, the suppliers, the consumers, the natural environment and broader society — in favour of the shareholders, who are not tied to a specific geographical area and who, therefore, enjoy extraordinary mobility.” [end of excerpt] And: http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=14970 Excerpt: The Caritas et Veritate encyclical, overdue by a couple of months reportedly due to difficulties encountered in translating to Latin, underscores the need for a system with three subjects: the market, the State and civil society, to civilising of the economy, the Vatican Information Service said, quoting from the text. The encyclical is Benedict's third. Filled with terms like globalisation, market economy, outsourcing, labour unions and alternative energy,, the New York Times reported, it is not surprising that the Italian media reported that the Vatican was having difficulty translating the 144 page document into Latin. [end of excerpt] And http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1909020,00.html Excerpt: Ever wondered what God makes of the current global economic crisis? We'll never know, of course, but the man the Roman Catholic Church deems the Almighty's pastor in chief has finally weighed in with his own take: Pope Benedict XVI offers neither stock tips nor bailout plans in Caritas in Veritate (Charity in Truth), but the long-awaited third encyclical of his papacy is a wide-ranging commentary on the sources of our economic woes and a holy blueprint for recovery based on something greater than the once mighty dollar. [end of excerpt]
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar (Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html I am surprised Aiyar writes an article without quoting the actual piece he takes exception to. Here is the link to the Pope's encyclical, CHARITY IN TRUTH http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html I am not interested in defending the Pope or the contents of the encyclical, but does Aiyar realize that outsourcing helps countries like the Philippines, Mexico, Brazil, all with large, predominantly Catholic populations. The Pope could not possibly be against Catholics. I seriously doubt there was a racial element in the encyclical, although as I have written previously on the Blessed Vaz cause, the Vatican is not immune to racial criticism. There is another point Aiyar misses. Some of the beneficiaries of outsourcing in the West are Indian owned companies who have Indian operations; many non-white owned companies too in the West outsource. So I think Aiyar's criticism is misplaced here. In any case, I have provided the link above to the encyclical and readers can make up their minds. Regards, George Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 15:43:35 +0530 From: goanetrea...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar Sunday August 02, 2009 Religion and business rarely mix well. This shows up in the encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI. The encyclical generally supports globalization, but criticizes western companies that outsource business to developing countries.
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html Please read the encyclical written by the Pope before reading S.A. Aiyar . Meera Noronha
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar (Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html Who is going to benefit from this? Is it the original Goan youth from Goa or some outside Ghatti? answer my question and I will tell you if help will be given or all hell will break loose. Regards, Derrick Da Costa Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 15:43:35 +0530 From: goanetrea...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar Sunday August 02, 2009 Religion and business rarely mix well. This shows up in the encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI. The encyclical0 generally supports globalization, but criticizes western companies that outsource business to developing countries. --- Read all Goanet messages at: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/ ---
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar(Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html Meera, Instead of leaving us in all that killing and chilling suspense, please could you tell us specifically what is it that the Pope has not said that Swaminathan Aiyar attributes to him? Or is there something excluded from what the Pope said? Would you consider writing a rejoinder to the TOI, where the original letter was carried? Since you suggest that Aiyar isn't reflecting the Pope's views on outsourcing adequately, please show us why this is so. Till then, I'll go along with Aiyar's view. FN 2009/8/5 noronha noronha...@dataone.in: Please read the encyclical written by the Pope before reading S.A. Aiyar . Meera Noronha -- FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490 Konkani adages http://konkani-adages.notlong.com/ Medieval Goa http://medieval-goa.notlong.com/
Re: [Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar (Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 15:43:35 +0530 From: goanetrea...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar Sunday August 02, 2009 Religion and business rarely mix well. This shows up in the encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI. The encyclical generally supports globalization, but criticizes western companies that outsource business to developing countries. Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 17:40:32 -0400 From: derrick da costa derekdaco...@hotmail.com Who is going to benefit from this? Is it the original Goan youth from Goa or some outside Ghatti? Mario responds: The Vatican's business is religion and morals. When they wade into economics and business they can be as moronic as Karl Marx, the Nehru family, Fidel and Raul Castro, Manuel Ortega, Hugo Chavez and Robert Mugabe. Let's not leave out the great economist Kim Jong Il:-)) They continue to make the most nonsensical pronouncements and forget that they are biting the hand that feeds them. Who the hell does Pope Benny think pays for his Gucci shoes and opulent palaces and royal lifestyle if not hard working Catholics from around the world, making an income by providing goods and services, and then donate some of their hard earned income to the church. The Pope should be thankful for their largesse or he may have to find a job and do some useful work that generates an income:-)) They do not live like kings because of poor people. If Santosh and the atheists prove to be correct I will be really ticked off with all the time and money I have wasted on these high minded mor..., ...er, people, especially when they interfere in things they know nothing about. My advice to the Vatican, Stick to religion and helping the poor, and stay the hell away from economics.
[Goanet] The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar (Times of India)
* G * O * A * N * E * T *** C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Sangath, www.sangath.com, is looking to build a centre for services, training and research and seeks to buy approx 1500 to 2000 sq mtrs land betweeen Mapusa and Bambolim and surrounding rural areas. Please contact: contac...@sangath.com or yvo...@sangath.com or ph+91-9881499458 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-July/180028.html The Pope's moral blunders on outsourcing S A Aiyar Sunday August 02, 2009 Religion and business rarely mix well. This shows up in the encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI. The encyclical0 generally supports globalization, but criticizes western companies that outsource business to developing countries. This criticism has an unfortunate ethnic slant. The Pope echoes the wish of a white labour aristocracy in the West to snatch jobs and income away from much poorer but more competitive workers in Third World countries. That is repugnant in both economic and moral terms. The western argument cannot quite be called racist. Politicians and workers in the West are not all white - some are black or brown. Yet, the ethnic implications of the western protest against outsourcing cannot be ignored. The protest rarely focuses on outsourcing to white countries like Poland, Latvia or Bulgaria. It focuses overwhelmingly on outsourcing to black, brown and yellow nations. This is mainly on economic grounds - wages are lower in Asia than in Eastern Europe, and so, the scope for outsourcing is far greater. Yet, the ethnic implications cannot be ignored. The mainly white labour aristocracy of the West is clamouring to get companies to shut down jobs and production in countries with black, brown and yellow workers. This means impoverishing poor workers to subsidize the labour aristocracy. Instead of being ashamed of trying to rob the poor of jobs, the labour aristocracy talks in high moral tones, as though it has a God-given right to jobs that have actually gone entirely on merit to the Third World. For most of history, China and India were the richest countries in the world, with the most advanced technologies and best jobs. The Industrial Revolution changed that - the best jobs moved to the West, and millions of Indian textile workers were rendered unemployed by British mills. The western labour aristocracy never complained of that shift of the best jobs from the East to the West, but cannot countenance a shift in the opposite direction. One valid western objection, on both economic and moral grounds, relates to the use (mainly by China) of prison labour, forced labour and child labour to produce cheap goods for export. Such exports have largely been checked, and now constitute a negligible part of outsourcing. This objection does not apply at all to India's burgeoning exports of software or BPO, or to the shift of 80,000 IBM jobs or 35,000 Accenture jobs to India. China has become the world's biggest supplier of manufactured goods, while India has become a major exporter of computer software, back-office services and RD. This has transformed the economies of the two most populous countries in the world, made them the fastest growing in the world, and helped hundreds of millions of poor people to rise out of poverty. You might think that the Pope would hail this as a great development for humanity. Instead, he has parroted the bogus claims of the white labour aristocracy. His encyclical says, the so-called outsourcing of production can weaken the company's sense of responsibility towards the stakeholders - namely the workers, the suppliers, the consumers, the natural environment, and broader society - in favour of the shareholders, who are not tied to a specific geographical area and who, therefore, enjoy extraordinary mobility. The racial implications of this leave me dumbstruck. The Pope has posed the issue as one of stakeholders versus shareholders. But are white stakeholders the only ones that matter? When IBM shifts 80,000 jobs to India, 80,000 Indian stakeholders replace American ones. Are the rights of 80,000 Indian stakeholders any less than those of the Americans they replace? When Chinese suppliers outbid American ones in supplying hardware to IBM, are the Chinese lesser stakeholders than the Americans they replace? The Pope is simply wrong in posing outsourcing as a conflict between shareholders and stakeholders. Outsourcing merely globalizes stakeholders across the world instead of leaving them within narrow national walls. And as a believer in one world, the Pope should be encouraging this spread of stakeholders across all humanity. Shareholders are getting globalised no less than workers, suppliers or consumers. Many shareholders of Citibank and IBM come from the West
