Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed; Church Thinker
Santosh seems to have hit the nail right on the head. The rambling essay is too shallow to merit the attention of scholars. Despite its sensational revelation, it has been rightly ignored by the press in Goa; however, a Konkani (Roman script) weekly has published a gist which is worse than the original. The absence of the word Hindu in Indo-Portuguese historiography has been cited to buttress the claim that followers of this religion did not exist in sixteenth century Goa. If this reasoning were to be accepted, one could also claim that there were no Konkani speakers in Goa, since this word too does not occur in that historiography; even its grammar printed in 1642 refers to it as Canarim. Apparently, both Dirks and Bhabha (not Baba) have been misreported. Neither is caste the product of British colonization nor is the caste system the fruit of British orientalism. The British certainly did not invent caste; even the word was adapted from casta (stock, breed) that the Portuguese had used for the phenomenon that they encountered upon their arrival here, the allusion, perhaps, being to the fact that marriage (hence breeding) was confined within these entities. The British (towards the end of the 19th century!) merely compiled exhaustive lists of castes and subcastes existing in the vast region under their rule, for the purpose of census enumeration, in pursuance of their own agenda. The fact that the water-tight (in the marriage market) castes and subcastes (zatis) have survived among Goan Catholics (converted in the 16th century!) should suffice to show that they antedate the arrival of the Portuguese. The caste names of Catholics are found only among the Hindus. Even untouchability of the Catholic Mhar, albeit in a milder form, survived until as late as the first half of the 20th century. Caste distinction also received ecclesiatic approval in Goa: membership of Church confrarias is caste-based, lower-caste boys were not ordained priests until very recently etc. The essay claims that the temples that were destroyed were not Hindu temples but of smaller, different and independent cults and religions which were often at war with each other. There are thousands of conflicting sects of Christian religion today, and many of these exist side-by-side in NE India. Assuming that a church is destroyed by ruffians in Nagaland, would it be correct to say that it was not a Christian place of worship but, say, a Pentecostal prayer-house? Claims about forced conversions and demolishing of the Hindu temples are ascribed to Hindu historians alone. Why? Has any Catholic historian debunked these claims? Are those atrocities (e.g. the desecration of the Cuncolim temple which led to the slaying of the perpetrators, later beatified as martyrs) not contained in the narratives of the missionaries themselves? The Christians too having forgotten their own origins are wounded... This is contrary to fact, at least to some extent. The upper castes, being literate, certainly know by name the patriarch who was obliged to embrace Christianity. A prominent Brahmin lady writer claims to be originally a Padiyar. The chardos of Cuncolim join their Hindu kinsmen from the respective vangodd during the Sotrio procession. The subalterns visit (now clandestinely) their family deities at least on aupicious occasions. In recent decades many of these have been deliberately made to forget their roots by overzealous padres. In painting of the Pre-Portuguese Goa as Hindu, there is a direct attempt to turn the historical facts about conversion against the Church and the Christians of today. In fact, it is the Church (and some misguided lay Christians) that is inviting the opprobrium upon herself and the Goan Christians by defending, and somehow justifying, the excesses committed by the European missionaries. The easiest and rational solution would be to disown those unchristian atrocities since they were not committed by the ancestors of Goan Christians. The bone of contention then disappears in a jiffy. There is an urgent imperative to generate a therapeutic dialogue (between Catholics and Hindus) that can respond to the wounded memories that disturb our society in Goa. And this essay is expected to provide the initial push in that direction. But can it achieve the desired purpose? By saying that his religion did not exist in the sixteenth century, when in fact his temples have been standing where they are for much longer, are you creating an atmosphere conducive to dialogue? Or are you hurting his ego and alienating him even more? This calls for a deeper cogitation. Sebastian Borges On 27 Jul 2013, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: George, The problem I have with some of this so-called research about Goan?history, whether it is church-related or otherwise, is that it is?merely the expression of somebody's subjective opinion pulled out of?thin air and dripping with either left-wing or right-wing ideology.?There is no
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed; Church Thinker
George, The problem I have with some of this so-called research about Goan history, whether it is church-related or otherwise, is that it is merely the expression of somebody's subjective opinion pulled out of thin air and dripping with either left-wing or right-wing ideology. There is no indication of any effort made to dig into primary sources, or to even make a comprehensive search of secondary and tertiary sources. There is no dispassionate search for the truth - no compulsion to uncover actual facts, and go wherever they lead you. It is as if all that is needed for something to be called research is to merely put down on paper whatever comes to mind in a convoluted manner, punctuated by politically significant buzz words. In the past I used to think that this was because of lack of funds, and inaccessibility to libraries, databases and archival sources. But after my recent visits to the new central library and the Xavier Centre of Historical Research, combined with my knowledge of what can be easily accessed freely on the internet, I do not think that there is any excuse any more for not doing a proper search of the existing literature before writing a research paper on history. For instance, if someone makes a statement that the temples that were destroyed by the Portuguese were not Hindu temples, then the minimum that is required of that person is the citation of actual facts and sources that led him/her to draw that conclusion. One expects him/her to make an exhaustive search of writings in which destruction of temples has been documented, and ascertain the identity of the temple deity in each recorded case. If he/she has not done this then his/her work is not research. If his/her assertion is purely an opinion, a gut feeling, a belief, a hunch, a hope or a wish then it is not an example of scholarship or even an academic exercise. No intellectual effort is required to hold such feelings or beliefs. It does not matter whether they are held in the interest of communal harmony or in order to pacify inflamed passions, and it certainly does not matter whether the person holding them has an advanced degree or high position in society. Cheers, Santosh - Original Message - From: George Pinto georgejpi...@yahoo.com It is useful to study history if it can instruct us about the present, towards a better society. But I can't help but notice the high attention to Church history by Goan academics which serves three adverse purposes: 1. Prop up a male dominated institution, mostly European institutions and furthering their power through various religious orders. What great purpose is served by the study of such history? 2. The flip side is social justice issues are ignored, specifically in Goa where there are any amount of issues which impact ordinary folk. 3. The use of this study of history to make political points, not just revise the past through religious and political lenses. One can only hope for more constructive use of time from our historians. George
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed; Church Thinker
It is useful to study history if it can instruct us about the present, towards a better society. But I can't help but notice the high attention to Church history by Goan academics which serves three adverse purposes: 1. Prop up a male dominated institution, mostly European institutions and furthering their power through various religious orders. What great purpose is served by the study of such history? 2. The flip side is social justice issues are ignored, specifically in Goa where there are any amount of issues which impact ordinary folk. 3. The use of this study of history to make political points, not just revise the past through religious and political lenses. One can only hope for more constructive use of time from our historians. George
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed; Church Thinker
Thanks for the sermao. Why don't you tell this to parrikar and the bjp zealots who along with seshikala have been hounding Goan Catholics for the past 52 years. BC Hope this information is adequate and may be we should put a stop to this subject ?There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed? Church thinker, and if continues it may create rifts among us decent Goans who have lived well together with Hindus , Catholics and Muslims during our olden days.
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church Thinker
On Jul 24, 2013, at 10:25 PM, Gilbert Lawrence gilbert2...@yahoo.com wrote: IMHO former and / or married catholic priests (Goan or European) would do a por favor by not presenting themselves as !authoritative on Catholicism. Their religious and other views on the Catholic Church, however intellectual, are more similar to those of a person talking about their ex-spouse. COMMENT: Whatever the place for por favor in the sentence above, I disagree with Dr. Lawrence. As long as one is NOT biased / bitter / unreasonable in one's pronouncements, I cannot see why someone cannot present himself as being authoritative on a particular subject, IF one is indeed authoritative on that subject. One cannot 'unknow' what one knows, even if it is about an ex-spouse or who/whatever.. jc
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed; Church Thinker
In Goanet Issue 489 one gentleman by name Gilbert Lawrence replied to me in response to one Eugenio Correia who wanted to know about “ simple scholar meaning “ This debate is going on nearly two weeks or so, with different writers; My answer was: Some would say that no scholar can be called simple in his or her own field. But I think every scholar with a passion is simple in the sense that they don't see how others can misinterpret and twist their passion... stephen dias GL responds to me; Hinduisms is not a cult or only a philosophy!? It is a religion! Its various subgroups are no different from the various denominations seen in the Christian, Muslims and Jewish faiths.? Hindus do not worship idols and are not pagans.? Hindu veneration of various incarnations of their deity as statues and paintings is similar to the Christian veneration of various saints and images of their deity.? What we have is selective application and interpretation of semantics? At one time the Christian religion was termed a cult by the Grecco-Roman pagans and others who did not understand the Christian religion. IMO, Catholics (including padres) would do themselves a 'por favor' by not presenting themselves as authorities on Hinduism.? I thank Hindus for taking some off-the-wall comments by Christians for what it is - Off the wall. For similar reasons, IMHO former and / or married catholic priests (Goan or European) would do a por favor by not presenting themselves as authoritative on Catholicism.? Their religious and other views on the Catholic Church, however intellectual, are more similar to those of a person talking about their ex-spouse. Their views on or about their former associate, occupation, workplace, etc. may be correct, but are more likely to be biased, exaggerated (overtly or covertly) or downright wrong depending on the circumstances of their parting. This is? common sense. It can be a matter of dialog if these renegades became biased before or after their transition. Regards, GL --- Stephen replies; Is Hinduism a Religion? Religion is a western term in its origin and meaning. In fact we have orientalised / seen with western and Christian eyes at the phenomenon of Hinduism as well as the other eastern human sacred relations in India. Western notion of religion requires a God, sacred books, cult centered around priests, congregation. Now in our country Buddhism and Jainism are religions without God while many tribals do not have a sacred book. It is difficult to the sacred phenomena in India on par with religion that is narrow in its connotation. Sacred is larger than the notion of God. Edward Said in his Book orientalism shows how the West created the East as its other by imposing the western categories of understanding on the East and erasing its otherness. Dipesh Charkravorthy in his book, Provicializing Europe, has demonstrated how we have created many Europe of our imaginations and how we cultivate and European point of view and perceive our Indian society. Hinduism is noble and different and cannot be seen with the eye of the western men. Unfortunately we have cultivated and enslaved our self to the western perspective and everyone including the Hindus view at the sacred phenomenon with the eyes of the West. Well no understanding in free from pre-understanding . there is no pure observation. All observation is a selection and is guided by theory. Hence, there is always a fusion of our past experience and future expectations in all our understanding. Scholars are not breed apart. The hermeneutical turn reveals that there is always a fusion of horizon in any dialogue. If you see a police men and a business men in the market and you notice that the policemen receives a envelope from the businessmen. You might tend to think that the policemen received bribe. Without seeing we can see. The horizon can be seen as the past experience and future expectations of the individuals involved in dialogue. Gadamer, a German thinker has shown that the bias of the enlighten movement was a bias against bias. All authentic scholars are seekers of knowledge. They have the passion to walk the unthreaded path and do not fear to err. It said the confession of once ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. Hope this information is adequate and may be we should put a stop to this subject “There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed” Church thinker, and if continues it may create rifts among us decent Goans who have lived well together with Hindus , Catholics and Muslims during our olden days. Stephen Dias D.Paula Date:,25.7.2013
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church Thinker
Stephen Dias wrote: This is in response to one called Eugenio Correia this is an answer for him: Some would say that no scholar can be called simple in his or her own field. But I think every scholar with a passion is simple in the sense that they don't see how others can misinterpret and twist their passion... GL responds: Hinduisms is not a cult or only a philosophy! It is a religion! Its various subgroups are no different from the various denominations seen in the Christian, Muslims and Jewish faiths. Hindus do not worship idols and are not pagans. Hindu veneration of various incarnations of their deity as statues and paintings is similar to the Christian veneration of various saints and images of their deity. What we have is selective application and interpretation of semantics. At one time the Christian religion was termed a cult by the Grecco-Roman pagans and others who did not understand the Christian religion. IMO, Catholics (including padres) would do themselves a 'por favor' by not presenting themselves as authorities on Hinduism. I thank Hindus for taking some off-the-wall comments by Christians for what it is - Off the wall. For similar reasons, IMHO former and / or married catholic priests (Goan or European) would do a por favor by not presenting themselves as authoritative on Catholicism. Their religious and other views on the Catholic Church, however intellectual, are more similar to those of a person talking about their ex-spouse. Their views on or about their former associate, occupation, workplace, etc. may be correct, but are more likely to be biased, exaggerated (overtly or covertly) or downright wrong depending on the circumstances of their parting. This is common sense. It can be a matter of dialog if these renegades became biased before or after their transition. Regards, GL
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed : Church Thinker
This is in response to one called Eugenio Correia on Geonet Issue 486; this is an answer for him Some would say that no scholar can be called simple in his or her own field. But I think every scholar with a passion is simple in the sense that they don't see how others can misinterpret and twist their passion... Stephen Dias, D.Paula Date: 24.7.2013
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Diana, you and Edwin are most welcome to meet me in Margao even otherwise. So, Diana that was your philosophy behind using 'that line' as a phrase amounting to analogy! Now let me write few lines on 'Analogy.' Although 'analogies' are one of the most prolific communication tools in the English language, used in every field of human endeavor, it often fails where 'persuasion' is the ultimate goal! Framer of 'analogy' always considers it is simple and straightforward to understand but unfortunately gets interpreted in unwanted complexity, opening doors to 'you..me..' type exchanges! This mainly happens because to counter one 'Analogy' another 'Analogy' is given a birth and this cycle goes on and on creating more and more complications than simplification! The very same thing we are presently experiencing (and will continue to witness/experience until 2014 general elections are over) how political parties trigger complications and create turbulences over each other's 'analogy.' Louts Genevie and Dantel Cooper of Litigation Strategies Ltd., explains pros and cons of 'Analogy' in their booklet titled 'For The Defense: Why ANALOGIES Often Fails.' Knowing this, I requested explanation from you to the usage of 'the line used by you.' Coming back to subject under discussion, Diana, would you like to reread your responses and check whether your responses answer the basic subject under discussion! Your responses (and deleted words 'church thinker' from subject line) give a feeling of trying to deflect the main issue under discussion and attempting to provide a soft cover with saying 'forget the past ..think of better tomorrow.' This is no doubt a good philosophy, but for a historian 'past' is more important than 'present.' And if we allow modern historians to interfere with well settled past history, our posterity will blame us and they will learn wrong history. This is my concern! Diana, the main issue in the subject line is: whether Hindus were there in Goa before Portuguese landed in Goa OR not! And you are yet to answer this! U. G. Barad Message: 6 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 09:53:20 +0530 From: Edwin/Diana Pinto eddipi...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese Message-ID: 4CF37A26238B41DCA7488BF481771F3D@CorpcommPC Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original U.G. Barad wrote Your explanation, appended herein below under caption 'YOUR RECENT REPLY', does not explain/elaborate nor expands the meaning and correlation of words: 'framing'; 'doctor'; 'prescription'; 'swallow' and 'medicine' used by you in that line. Since I did not get the clarity on this line and more specifically for words used in that line, I requested you to explain! And if you cannot explain/expand the line w.r.t. words used by you, let's forget it! We will consider the exchange of messages is closed for good with no answer. What say? Of course I can explain. Why would I say things to you that I cannot explain. This phrase was just an analogy, which I think most people would understand. However, if you didn't manage to understand it, then let me simplify it even further. The doctor referred to are the Gods and prophets from whom our scriptures are derived. The scriptures are akin to a doctor's prescription for a better life. But we only get better if we swallow the medicine prescribed, not if we just honour images of our doctor and keep reading the prescription without swallowing the medicine (that is implement the advice and instructions given to us in the scriptures.) Let me know if you still do not understand, then Edwin and I will be happy to meet with you personally in your home town of Margao and explain it to you even further. Diana
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão wrote: I have always considered History as a subject of gossip mixed with confabulations, with very little facts; and still consider so. --- Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão, Thanks for clarifying what history means to you. I find your viewpoint, well, as unreasonable as it gets. The next level is the viewpoint that Goans make the best historians ever (gossipers and confabers). Mervyn
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
augusto pinto wrote: What makes you think that the Rev. Dr Victor Ferrao's objective of the above is to turn everything upside down? Augusto, You do not have the slightest idea of the history of Goa. If you have been in touch with recent scholarship of Goan history you will find that there nothing exceptionable about Fr Victor's remarks. I could point you to some good books on Goa and the Konkan coast written by the non-religious, but that would be a sheer waste of time as reading always requires comprehension skills. Rather you seem like an ignoramus wading into a quicksand when you say that you contest that most of the temples collapsed and turned into dust at the very sight of the arrival of the true religion on its sacred land. Please don't disgust us with such unscientific and stupid statements. My point exactly. Read requires comprehension skills. Mervyn
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
U. G. Barad dr.udaybarad at gmail.com on Mon Jul 15 07:59:22 PDT 2013 wrote: Dr. Ferdinando, first, please read about 'Hindu and Hinduism' before venturing in posing historical questions and that too when you admit that you are 'nonreader in history'! ….. Tim de Mello timdemello2 at hotmail.com on Sun Jul 14 12:38:01 PDT 2013 wrote: I’ve always been non-reader in history and still am . . . Then I suggest that you start reading, Doctor!Tim de Mello RESPONSE: I have always considered History as a subject of gossip mixed with confabulations, with very little facts; and still consider so. It is of no use to those having things to do in life, except for those who need to pass their time which does not pass easily. If someone would enlighten me, well and good; else it wouldn’t make a difference as psychotic patients do a better job at confabulations. Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Diana, I'm resubmitting you your original line which you had used earlier. The line used by you was: '...we are framing our doctors' pictures and prescriptions on the wall, but are we really swallowing the doctors medicine?' Your explanation, appended herein below under caption 'YOUR RECENT REPLY', does not explain/elaborate nor expands the meaning and correlation of words: 'framing'; 'doctor'; 'prescription'; 'swallow' and 'medicine' used by you in that line. Since I did not get the clarity on this line and more specifically for words used in that line, I requested you to explain! And if you cannot explain/expand the line w.r.t. words used by you, let's forget it! We will consider the exchange of messages is closed for good with no answer. What say? Just for your quick reference, I append my original mail under caption 'MY ORIGINAL MESSAGE' Best regards, U. G. Barad MY ORIGINAL MESSAGE I agree to the first part of your message. In fact, this message/advise should have come from church thinkers! Instead they are up to something unwanted, unwarranted, unfounded, nonrealistic zealotry! Diana, you say '...We are framing our doctors' pictures and prescriptions on the wall, but are we really swallowing the doctors medicine?' Could you please elaborate/expand this line used by you? Best regards, U. G. Barad On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 Edwin/Diana Pinto eddipi...@gmail.com wrote: It really baffles me why all of us spend so much time and energy debating what happened in the distant past, when this can never be 100% confirmed as the last word in accuracy. These issues only serve to polarise our society even further. What does it matter anyway unless there is some lesson to be learnt by all of us? WE cannot undo the past. WHat is very important in my opinion is the manner in which we are charting our course TODAY and the manner in which we are living our lives here and now. Because, most of us are anyway failing to live up to our respective scriptures, or else our society would not be in the state that it is today. We are framing our doctors' pictures and prescriptions on the wall, but are we really swallowing the doctors medicine? Makes better sense to spend our time doing something to improve ourselves and our community today, rather than remaining mired in an irrelevant past..Diana Pinto YOUR RECENT REPLY: On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 Edwin/Diana Pinto eddipi...@gmail.com wrote: U.G. Barad wrote Diana, you say '...We are framing our doctors' pictures and prescriptions on the wall, but are we really swallowing the doctors medicine?' Could you please elaborate/expand this line used by you? Yes of course Mr. Barad - what I mean is that we highly revere and honour our holy men, Gods and prophets and treat the books of scriptures with utmost reverence, ready to wade into battle for any perceived dishonour or slight to our Holy Books or our Holy Men. The point of our scriptures however (of any religion) is to help us on a constructive and positive path of life, to make us feel a oneness and a sense of unity with each other and all of the universe. We are all journeying together and struggling to get to a higher level. I am sure that the Gods would prefer if we focused our energies on incorporating the teachings of the scriptures in our lives. Also, I think one cannot blame any one sect or religion for the state we are in today, because in my opinion, all of us are united in following one scripture - the gospel of prosperity, power and good times at any cost. But as I have said earlier, this is just my opinion...Diana
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Dear Santosh, I notice that you have abandoned your usual knee jerk reaction of asking for evidence when confronted with something you are uncomfortable with. Instead, you choose to question the motives of Rev. Dr. Victor Ferrao. I think that recent scholarship of history proves that the contention of Ferrao is quite difficult to discredit. Did you know that there was no such thing as a Saraswat Brahmin until well into the 19th century? Regards Augusto From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org I am not sure whether the purpose of this attempt at historical?revisionism is purely political in order to counteract against the?Hindu zealots or it is some new form of religious or colonial?apologism concocted by the latest breed of theologians. Cheers, -- Augusto Pinto 40, Novo Portugal Moira, Bardez Goa, India E pinto...@gmail.com P 0832-2470336 M 9881126350
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Mervyn Lobo wrote in response to Mayabhushan: Mayabhushan wrote: Fr. Victor Ferrao, a dean at the state?s most renowned Rachol Roman Catholic seminary, which trains and grooms budding priests has also said in his research paper that the scores of temples demolished by the Portuguese colonists from 15th century onwards were not Hindu temples, but instead belonged to different ?independent cults and religions which were often at war with each other?. Folks, Since the objective of the above is to turn everything upside down, I feel that the priest has not done as good a job as he could. If, and this is a big if, I were to embark of such a project, I would contest that most of the temples collapsed and turned into dust at the very sight of the arrival of the true religion on its sacred land. Dear Mervyn What makes you think that the Rev. Dr Victor Ferrao's objective of the above is to turn everything upside down? If you have been in touch with recent scholarship of Goan history you will find that there nothing exceptionable about Fr Victor's remarks. Rather you seem like an ignoramus wading into a quicksand when you say that you contest that most of the temples collapsed and turned into dust at the very sight of the arrival of the true religion on its sacred land. Please don't disgust us with such unscientific and stupid statements. Augusto -- Augusto Pinto 40, Novo Portugal Moira, Bardez Goa, India E pinto...@gmail.com P 0832-2470336 M 9881126350
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
I’ve always been non-reader in history and still am . . . Then I suggest that you start reading, Doctor! Tim de Mello From: drferdina...@hotmail.com To: goa...@goanet.org Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 23:15:19 +0530 Subject: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker Can some luminary in the field of history or histrionics in this forum enlighten me on these doubts I have? I’ve always been nonreader in history and still am, and would appreciate if some light is thrown on these doubts. 1 – Was Adil Shah a Hindu? Was he ruling Goa when Portuguese conquered Goa? 2- Were the Kadambas ruling Goa when the Portuguese arrived or they were from Karnataka, and were in Goa upto the 14th century? 3 – If Goan Hindus are Hindus, how come the ‘Vishwa Hindu Parishad’ are teaching Goan Hindus the Hindu religion? That too militantly? And lastly 4 – Were atrocities by the Portuguese (inquisition)committed against the Hindus? Or was it against the newly converts to Catholicism who still practiced their ancient culture? Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Dear Augusto, As usual, you have missed the point. It is clear from my post that I am not sure what Fr. Rev. Dr. Prof. Ferrao's motives are. He makes one of his motives clear in his statements, but not the other. It would be obvious to most people other than you why I did not ask him to present his evidence on Goanet. As far as I can tell, he is not a member of Goanet. Now if you, on the other hand, based on your statement below, have newly uncovered evidence that what the Konknne of Goa practiced in the 16th century were cults and religions, entirely different from the practices that the English speaking world calls Hinduism today, please provide that evidence. I am really curious to know what new discoveries have led to the recent scholarship that will keep me from discrediting the father's contention, and questioning your and his motives some more. As far as what these 16th century Konknne were called, and what their religion(s) was/were called then, as opposed to the 19th or 21st century, I couldn't care less. I am not interested in communal (in the Indian sense of the word) or casteist semantic games and labels on any side. As for recent scholarship of history, the following quotes should make it obvious what type of scholarship it is: QUOTE In fact even the word Hindu does not exist in the entire sixteenth century Indo-Portuguese historiography. UNQUOTE .Fr. Victor Ferrao, 2013 (doing his recent scholarship of history in Augusto's words) QUOTE ...moreover if people of Arabia or Persia would ask of the men of this country whether they are Moors or Gentoos, they ask in these words: 'Art thou Mosalman or Indu?' UNQUOTE Dr. Garcia de Orta, 1563 (translated from original Portuguese, published in the city of Goa in 1563) Cheers, Santosh - Original Message - From: augusto pinto pinto...@gmail.com Dear Santosh, I notice that you have abandoned your usual knee jerk reaction of asking for evidence when confronted with something you are uncomfortable with. Instead, you choose to question the motives of Rev. Dr. Victor Ferrao. I think that recent scholarship of history proves that the contention of Ferrao is quite difficult to discredit. Did you know that there was no such thing as a Saraswat Brahmin until well into the 19th century? Regards Augusto From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com I am not sure whether the purpose of this attempt at historical?revisionism is purely political in order to counteract against the?Hindu zealots or it is some new form of religious or colonial?apologism concocted by the latest breed of theologians.
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Dr. Ferdinando, first, please read about 'Hindu and Hinduism' before venturing in posing historical questions and that too when you admit that you are 'nonreader in history'! Secondly, you must make up your mind as to whether you profess church thinker(s) philosophy or that of self-acclaimed, self-styled thinker Radharav! Thereafter, I'm sure; on your own you will get the answers for all the questions posed by you to Goanet members! Best regards, U. G. Barad On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o drferdina...@hotmail.com wrote: Can some luminary in the field of history or histrionics in this forum enlighten me on these doubts I have? I?ve always been nonreader in history and still am, and would appreciate if some light is thrown on these doubts. 1 ? Was Adil Shah a Hindu? Was he ruling Goa when Portuguese conquered Goa? 2- Were the Kadambas ruling Goa when the Portuguese arrived or they were from Karnataka, and were in Goa upto the 14th century? 3 ? If Goan Hindus are Hindus, how come the ?Vishwa Hindu Parishad? are teaching Goan Hindus the Hindu religion? That too militantly? And lastly 4 ? Were atrocities by the Portuguese (inquisition)committed against the Hindus? Or was it against the newly converts to Catholicism who still practiced their ancient culture? Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falc?o.
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Its unwarranted attempt of church thinkers to rewrite history and to provide softest possible cover to atrocities created by churches in the past (immediately after Portuguese landed in Goa) against Hindus in Goa! They might even extend their logic little further and say, 'since there were no Hindus there were on Hindu temples in Goa before Portuguese landed in Goa.' Church thinkers might even go further saying, 'Hindus in Goa are creations of Portuguese after they landed in Goa.' So much so, they might even bring up the new theory saying 'all prevailing temples in Goa are created/built by destroying existing churches in Goa after Portuguese landed in Goa. - What an argument! Here, I recollect self-acclaimed thinker Radharav, at a public meeting in Gomant Vidya Nikeetan - Margao, saying 'Hindus in Goa willingly got converted to Christianity after Portuguese landed in Goa!' Is this thinking of atypical thinker contradicting church thinkers? Time has come to show such thinking, without even thinking, a dustbin! Present attempt of Church thinkers is nothing but changing the very meaning/definition of History! And if they continue with such nonsensical thinking, people round the globe will call them 'Fanatics' instead of thinkers! And their thinking will be called 'Fanaticism.' Church thinkers must stop unwanted, unwarranted, unfounded zealotry! Lastly, I think, Santosh must express himself as to what according to him is the purpose of such attempt instead of writing, 'I'm not sure whether..' I hope Santosh expresses himself! U. G. Barad On Sat, 13 Jul 2013 Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: I am not sure whether the purpose of this attempt at historical revisionism is purely political in order to counteract against the Hindu zealots or it is some new form of religious or colonial apologism concocted by the latest breed of theologians. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Mayabhushan wrote: Fr. Victor Ferrao, a dean at the state’s most renowned Rachol Roman Catholic seminary, which trains and grooms budding priests has also said in his research paper that the scores of temples demolished by the Portuguese colonists from 15th century onwards were not Hindu temples, but instead belonged to different “independent cults and religions which were often at war with each other”. Folks, Since the objective of the above is to turn everything upside down, I feel that the priest has not done as good a job as he could. If, and this is a big if, I were to embark of such a project, I would contest that most of the temples collapsed and turned into dust at the very sight of the arrival of the true religion on its sacred land. Jokes aside, I thank the Portuguese for allowing some Goans to discard the notion of several gods in favour of the concept of one god. This makes it much easier for the monotheistic to jettison the concept of god altogether. Mervyn
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
Can some luminary in the field of history or histrionics in this forum enlighten me on these doubts I have? I’ve always been nonreader in history and still am, and would appreciate if some light is thrown on these doubts. 1 – Was Adil Shah a Hindu? Was he ruling Goa when Portuguese conquered Goa? 2- Were the Kadambas ruling Goa when the Portuguese arrived or they were from Karnataka, and were in Goa upto the 14th century? 3 – If Goan Hindus are Hindus, how come the ‘Vishwa Hindu Parishad’ are teaching Goan Hindus the Hindu religion? That too militantly? And lastly 4 – Were atrocities by the Portuguese (inquisition)committed against the Hindus? Or was it against the newly converts to Catholicism who still practiced their ancient culture? Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker * http://www.firstpost.com/author/hidden*Jul 13, 2013http://www.firstpost.com/author/hidden http://www.firstpost.com/author/hidden http://www.firstpost.com/author/hidden http://www.firstpost.com/author/hidden http://www.firstpost.com/author/hidden 47 http://www.firstpost.com/author/hiddenhttp://www.firstpost.com/india/there-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.html 0 http://www.firstpost.com/india/there-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.html 1 http://www.firstpost.com/india/there-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.html http://www.firstpost.com/india/there-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.html http://pinterest.com/pin/create/button/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstpost.com%2Findia%2Fthere-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.htmlmedia=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstpost.com%2Fwp-content%2Fimage2png.php%3Fsrc%3D%2F2013%2F07%2FGoaBeaches_AFP.jpg%26width%3D250%26height%3D190%26quality%3D70%26mode%3Dfixed%26form%3Djpgdescription=There%20were%20no%20Hindus%20in%20Goa%20before%20Portuguese%20landed:%20Church%20thinker Email http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php41 Commentshttp://www.firstpost.com/india/there-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.html#disqus_thread Printhttp://www.firstpost.com/india/there-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.html #Fr Victory Ferrao http://www.firstpost.com/tag/fr-victory-ferrao #Goahttp://www.firstpost.com/tag/goa #Hinduism http://www.firstpost.com/tag/hinduism #Hindushttp://www.firstpost.com/tag/hindus #India http://www.firstpost.com/tag/india #Portuguesehttp://www.firstpost.com/tag/portuguese #Roman Catholic Church http://www.firstpost.com/tag/roman-catholic-church #TheySaidIt http://www.firstpost.com/tag/theysaidit *By Mayabhushan Nagvenkar* *Panaji:* In BJP-ruled Goa, a leading Christian theologist from the influential Roman Catholic Church has claimed that ‘Hindus’ did not exist in region during the pre-Portuguese era. Fr. Victor Ferrao, a dean at the state’s most renowned Rachol Roman Catholic seminary, which trains and grooms budding priests has also said in his research paper that the scores of temples demolished by the Portuguese colonists from 15th century onwards were not Hindu temples, but instead belonged to different “independent cults and religions which were often at war with each other”. Ferrao in his paper presented at a recent seminar ‘The Challenge to be a Goan Christian’ held here, that by painting of pre-colonial Goa as Hindu territory, “there is a direct attempt to turn the historical facts about conversion against the Church and the Christians of today”. The renowned Church academic in his research paper even goes a step further and attributes political motives to the “reductionist and distortionist” appropriation of Goa’s history by Hindu-logists. [image: AFP]http://www.firstpost.com/india/there-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.html/attachment/goabeaches_afp-6 A leading Christian theologist from the influential Roman Catholic Church has claimed that ‘Hindus’ did not exist in region during the pre-Portuguese era. AFP “I have described these attempts as Hindu-ology. In fact even the word Hindu does not exist in the entire sixteenth century Indo-Portuguese historiography,” his paper titled ‘The Other Orientalism and the Challenge and Opportunities for the Church in Goa’ reads. The revelations in the research paper come at a time when the BJP has been trying to cosy up with the Church in Goa, which is the spiritual and religious beacon to nearly one third of Goa’s population which is Catholic and a key vote bank. In fact, tacit support of the Goa Church, although its spokesperson later categorically denied any truck with the BJP in the 2012 assembly polls, was one of the key reasons why the BJP swept the elections, apart from an unprecedented eight Catholic candidates which the party had fielded. The Catholic swing towards the BJP ensured that the party romp home with a majority on its own, an unheard of electoral feat in Goa, where a hotch-potch of results is the norm. However, the issue of Goa’s chequered religious past before the advent of the spices and Christian-seeking Portuguese has also been a matter of debate. A large section of authors and historians have insisted that Goa has been described in ancient texts as a land reclaimed by Sage Parshurama, an avatar of Lord Vishnu, from the sea and that the state known for beaches, booze, nightlife, sex tourism and drugs now, was once called ‘Konkan Kashi’ or Benaras of the South. A view which was endorsed by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, which during a conclave held here in 2000, released a six page brochure on the subject. “Goa, even four decades after liberation, is
[Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
* http://www.firstpost.com/india/there-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.html * *There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker * *By Mayabhushan Nagvenkar* *Panaji:* In BJP-ruled Goa, a leading Christian theologist from the influential Roman Catholic Church has claimed that ‘Hindus’ did not exist in region during the pre-Portuguese era. Fr. Victor Ferrao, a dean at the state’s most renowned Rachol Roman Catholic seminary, which trains and grooms budding priests has also said in his research paper that the scores of temples demolished by the Portuguese colonists from 15th century onwards were not Hindu temples, but instead belonged to different “independent cults and religions which were often at war with each other”. Ferrao in his paper presented at a recent seminar ‘The Challenge to be a Goan Christian’ held here, that by painting of pre-colonial Goa as Hindu territory, “there is a direct attempt to turn the historical facts about conversion against the Church and the Christians of today”. The renowned Church academic in his research paper even goes a step further and attributes political motives to the “reductionist and distortionist” appropriation of Goa’s history by Hindu-logists. “I have described these attempts as Hindu-ology. In fact even the word Hindu does not exist in the entire sixteenth century Indo-Portuguese historiography,” his paper titled ‘The Other Orientalism and the Challenge and Opportunities for the Church in Goa’ reads. The revelations in the research paper come at a time when the BJP has been trying to cosy up with the Church in Goa, which is the spiritual and religious beacon to nearly one third of Goa’s population which is Catholic and a key vote bank. In fact, tacit support of the Goa Church, although its spokesperson later categorically denied any truck with the BJP in the 2012 assembly polls, was one of the key reasons why the BJP swept the elections, apart from an unprecedented eight Catholic candidates which the party had fielded. The Catholic swing towards the BJP ensured that the party romp home with a majority on its own, an unheard of electoral feat in Goa, where a hotch-potch of results is the norm. However, the issue of Goa’s chequered religious past before the advent of the spices and Christian-seeking Portuguese has also been a matter of debate. A large section of authors and historians have insisted that Goa has been described in ancient texts as a land reclaimed by Sage Parshurama, an avatar of Lord Vishnu, from the sea and that the state known for beaches, booze, nightlife, sex tourism and drugs now, was once called ‘Konkan Kashi’ or Benaras of the South. A view which was endorsed by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, which during a conclave held here in 2000, released a six page brochure on the subject. “Goa, even four decades after liberation, is misguidedly projected as the Rome of the East, particularly in tourism – by government and non-government agencies. But Goa is the Kashi of the west coast India… The Portuguese are not the makers but destroyers of Golden Goa,” the brochure read. Ferrao, in his research paper, a copy of which is available with Firstpost, however insists that such obfuscation stemming from political motives, was one of the key reasons why Christians in Goa now have to “lay claim to their own history” in the pre-Portuguese era. “It important to assert that we have not come from Hinduism of today, but the then fragmented cults that today have been steadily assimilated into Hinduism of today,” Ferrao said, quoting noted historian Romila Thapar to back his treatise. Ferrao said that the claims of forced conversions and demolishing of temples during the early Portuguese era were essentially to be found only in “narratives of the post-colonial historiography mainly authored by the Hindu historians in our days”. “Though the temples that were demolished were not Hindu, but one(s) that belonged to different cults that have united into Hinduism of today the Hindu community is certainly carrying the pain of this false impression,” the paper reads. The paper further says that both the Hindu religion and nationalism are a product of colonialisation, adding that to reduce pre-Hindu religions, cults or sects and their unification under Hinduism in the 19th century amounted to an “epistemological” error. Several other scholars, however, tend to disagree with Ferrao’s argument. P P Shirodkar, who has authored several books on Goa’s history, says in research paper ‘Social Cultural life in Goa during the 16th century says: “At the time of the fall of Goa in the hands of the Portuguese, its population, majority of whom were Hindus, followed by the Muslims mostly on military duty continued to live in villages with its agricultural communities”. He further says that villagers in Goa followed the Hindu law of inheritance. In a journal ‘Goa and Portugal: Their Cultural Links’ edited by
Re: [Goanet] There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker
I am not sure whether the purpose of this attempt at historical revisionism is purely political in order to counteract against the Hindu zealots or it is some new form of religious or colonial apologism concocted by the latest breed of theologians. Cheers, Santosh - Original Message - From: Mayabhushan mayabhus...@gmail.com * http://www.firstpost.com/india/there-were-no-hindus-in-goa-before-portuguese-landed-church-thinker-953727.html * *There were no Hindus in Goa before Portuguese landed: Church thinker * *By Mayabhushan Nagvenkar* *Panaji:* In BJP-ruled Goa, a leading Christian theologist from the influential Roman Catholic Church has claimed that ‘Hindus’ did not exist in region during the pre-Portuguese era. Fr. Victor Ferrao, a dean at the state’s most renowned Rachol Roman Catholic seminary, which trains and grooms budding priests has also said in his research paper that the scores of temples demolished by the Portuguese colonists from 15th century onwards were not Hindu temples, but instead belonged to different “independent cults and religions which were often at war with each other”.
