Re: [Goanet] Torture of Christians in Orissa
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * GARCA BRANCA VACATION ACCOMMODATION LOUTULIM, SOUTH GOA. For RR; modern/clean amenities; serene, healthy and wholesome location Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Miguel The following statement of yours is the crux of the discussion on Goanet. To repeat it, The scale and the target of the violence was not against the people who 'provoked' it. I would have pointed this out if our 'all knowing guy' restrained himself.:=)) The point all people have to make on this issue (as well as for all Goans) is that One cannot take the law into one's own hand, what ever one may perceive is the provocation. This is just like one cannot claim all views are welcome; then zing any views one may not agree with. Kind Regards, GL Miguel Braganza The scale and the target of the violence was not against the people who 'provoked' it.
Re: [Goanet] Torture of Christians in Orissa
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * GARCA BRANCA VACATION ACCOMMODATION LOUTULIM, SOUTH GOA. For RR; modern/clean amenities; serene, healthy and wholesome location Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is just like one cannot claim all views are welcome; then zing any views one may not agree with. Kind Regards, GL I think Gilbert has a problem understanding the simple notion of all views being welcome. All views include criticism or zinging of those views. People should be allowed to zing Gilbert's views if they find them absurd and/or erroneous. Disagreements are also views. All disagreements are welcome. Now in the rest of his post below, Gilbert is trying to change his tune. In his original response to Miguel and me he was trying to accuse us of innuendo despite admitting that he was ignorant about the issue in question. Miguel was simply objecting to the claim that the riots were unprovoked. I was pointing out that religious harmony would have been better served if the Christian religious organization in Goa had not avoided mentioning that a Hindu religious leader was allegedly attacked in the initial phase of the riots. Cheers, Santosh --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Miguel The following statement of yours is the crux of the discussion on Goanet. To repeat it, The scale and the target of the violence was not against the people who 'provoked' it. I would have pointed this out if our 'all knowing guy' restrained himself.:=))
Re: [Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * GARCA BRANCA VACATION ACCOMMODATION LOUTULIM, SOUTH GOA. For RR; modern/clean amenities; serene, healthy and wholesome location Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Marshall Mendonza: wrote Please note the most literate states in India are those where the christian missionaries have been most active eg: Kerala, Goa, North -East,Tamiil Nadu, Karnataka This is the kind of contribution that the christians have made to the nation. Please do not underestimate the role and contribution of christianity to the nation. Regards, Marshall Mendonza RESPONSE: Marshall thanks for putting your views about Christian Missionaries in India. If any country which needs most of it is I think our neighbour Pakistan where missionaries have not spread their roots like they did in India. Pakistan badly needs service, preechings of Missionaries looking at present scenario there it will be nice if MISSIONaries succeed in their MISSION there. They should start there mission looking for tribal areas in Pak. Definitely they will find another Orissa or North-East over there. Also some missionary schools dont allow Hindu girls to put on Bindi(one that is placed on forehead). Your own words go wrong here about freedom of religion. Regards, Kamalaksh
Re: [Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa
Dears, The Scheduled Caste status ...and the facilities available thereunder ONLY to Hindus ... is an ALLUREMENT [for the SC to remain Hindu] by the Government using the taxpayers' money. The Buddhists, like Christians and Muslims do not formally believe in CASTE and hence should have been denied the SC status. This is not politically convenient to do for the Neo-Buddhists. They are taken under the Hindu umbrella. If providing education, health facilities ...and desperately needed food in the famine striken tribal belts is ALLURMENT, I would encourage all religious organisations to get ACTIVELY INVOLVED in such activity. When I wrote that the statement calling the violence against the Christians in Orissa UNPROVOKED, I meant exactly what I wrote. That it is not the Truth. There was, as per different news agencies and even Christian sources, a provocation. No one has controverted that so far. My statement is NOT to justify the disproportiante VIOLENCE said to be in retaliation to the provocation. The scale and the target of the violence was not against the people who 'provoked' it. My statement is definitely not to negate the good work done by the Missionaries for hundreds of years. It is an open challenge to anyone to replicate the good work the missionaries have done ...and CONTINUE TO DO .. against all odds. We must stand by the Truth at all times inconvenient though it may be. Mog asundi. Miguel PS Since Catholicism was introduced, sometimes violently, by the Portuguese colonialists in Goa and CONVERSION often meant turning a puddvem or kasti clad man or a sari clad woman who ate vegetables, fish, wild boar or deer from Goa into a pant or frock wearing Catholic who ate sorpotel and beef and went for Sunday mass, many cannot differentiate the Portuguese state and Roman Catholicism. In other states of India, the religious converts neither changed their life styles nor their names. The ONLY CHANGE that is necessary for conversion is the change of FAITH or belief. A English speaking Hindu or Muslim girl in a mini skirt be as WESTERN as Madonna or as Paris Hilton ...but that does not make her a Christian. In fact, I doubt if half the people with names like Francis, Peter, Maria, etc strutting about in Goa are truly Christian in their faith and belief. Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:59:28 +0530 From: Fr. Ivo da C. Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa Dear Marshall Mendonza, I do appreciate your letter written about the wonderful transformative, liberative work done by the Christian missionaries in India. They have given a diferent face to our country by contributing for the uplift of the downtrodden. But I think that deep down the problem with the critics is not that there are 'conversions by force', but that there is liberation of the poor tribals from the clutches of the powerful through Gospel values... That has been a threat in several places. You have well highlighted their contribution in all fields for the development of India. Congratulations! Fr.Ivo Vinay Natekar wrote: I agree with you that conversions are not done by use of violence by your Missionaries but luring the gullible poor illiterate tribal hindus by luring them economic benefits, this coercive religious conversion by global evangelical movements are posing political, social and ethical problems in secular India. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 11:14 AM Subject: [Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa Vinay, you have used strong words. But you need to substantiate your statements with concrete and irrefutable proof. Mere allegations do not become the truth. Religion is a matter of personal choice. You or I are no one to decide what religion others want to follow. Christians who constitute a mere 2.5 % contribute over 70% of the social sector through their network of schools, colleges, dispenseries, leprosy homes, medical care centres etc. I could go on and on. Please note the most literate states in India are those where the christian missionaries have been most active eg: Kerala, Goa, North -East,Tamiil Nadu, Karnataka This is the kind of contribution that the christians have made to the nation. Please do not underestimate the role and contribution of christianity to the nation. Regards, Marshall Mendonza -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. Miguel Braganza, S1 Gracinda Apts, Rajvaddo, Mhapsa 403507 Goa Ph 9822982676 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Re: [Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa
Dear Marshall Mendonza, I do appreciate your letter written about the wonderful transformative, liberative work done by the Christian missionaries in India. They have given a diferent face to our country by contributing for the uplift of the downtrodden. But I think that deep down the problem with the critics is not that there are 'conversions by force', but that there is liberation of the poor tribals from the clutches of the powerful through Gospel values... That has been a threat in several places. You have well highlighted their contribution in all fields for the development of India. Congratulations! Fr.Ivo - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 11:14 AM Subject: [Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa Vinay Natekar wrote: I agree with you that conversions are not done by use of violence by your Missionaries but luring the gullible poor illiterate tribal hindus by luring them economic benefits, this coercive religious conversion by global evangelical movements are posing political, social and ethical problems in secular India. Comment: Vinay, you have used strong words. But you need to substantiate your statements with concrete and irrefutable proof. Mere allegations do not become the truth. You have no problem when the same poor tribals 'freely' exercise their votes, when they 'f'reely' choose their occupation, when they 'freely' choose their place of residence, but you have a big problem when they want to choose their religion. Why this double standards? Religion is a matter of personal choice. You or I are no one to decide what religion others want to follow. For your kind information the first president of the INC was W C Banerjee, a Christian. The first Indian hockey olympic captain was Jaipal Singh, a tribal christian from Jharkhand.Christians who constitute a mere 2.5 % contribute over 70% of the social sector through their network of schools, colleges, dispenseries, leprosy homes, medical care centres etc. I could go on and on. If you are really interested in knowing the contribution of christians, I could direct you to some websites / publications so that you can enhance your knowledge. Please note the most literate states in India are those where the christian missionaries have been most active eg: Kerala, Goa, North -East,Tamiil Nadu, Karnataka This is the kind of contribution that the christians have made to the nation. Please do not underestimate the role and contribution of christianity to the nation. Regards, Marshall Mendonza -- My life has changed. What about yours? Log on to the new Indiatimes Mail and Live out of the Inbox!
[Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa
Vinay Natekar wrote: I agree with you that conversions are not done by use of violence by your Missionaries but luring the gullible poor illiterate tribal hindus by luring them economic benefits, this coercive religious conversion by global evangelical movements are posing political, social and ethical problems in secular India. Comment: Vinay, you have used strong words. But you need to substantiate your statements with concrete and irrefutable proof. Mere allegations do not become the truth. You have no problem when the same poor tribals 'freely' exercise their votes, when they 'f'reely' choose their occupation, when they 'freely' choose their place of residence, but you have a big problem when they want to choose their religion. Why this double standards? Religion is a matter of personal choice. You or I are no one to decide what religion others want to follow. For your kind information the first president of the INC was W C Banerjee, a Christian. The first Indian hockey olympic captain was Jaipal Singh, a tribal christian from Jharkhand.Christians who constitute a mere 2.5 % contribute over 70% of the social sector through their network of schools, colleges, dispenseries, leprosy homes, medical care centres etc. I could go on and on. If you are really interested in knowing the contribution of christians, I could direct you to some websites / publications so that you can enhance your knowledge. Please note the most literate states in India are those where the christian missionaries have been most active eg: Kerala, Goa, North -East,Tamiil Nadu, Karnataka This is the kind of contribution that the christians have made to the nation. Please do not underestimate the role and contribution of christianity to the nation. Regards, Marshall Mendonza -- My life has changed. What about yours? Log on to the new Indiatimes Mail and Live out of the Inbox!
[Goanet] Goanet] Torture of Christians in Orissa is .... about money, honey.
Dears, Before this Christian v/s Hindu debate gets out of focus, let us go back to the ground reality: The Christain Panas [formerly SC and now demanding ST status because the Constitution does not recognise SC for no-Hindus] wanted to put an arch in the market. They were prevented. The Christian Panas beat up a swami, his driver and a police escort. The Hindus burnt churches, seminaries, houses, convents. TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE ONE RIGHT. said Mahatma Gandhi. The following is an extract of the full report below. It has also been confirmed by a priest that the swami, drive and ploiceman was beaten up BEFORE the violence erupted. The report:QUOTE The region has witnessed numerous clashes in the past over attempts of conversion and re-conversion of tribals and Panas by both Christians and Hindus. The trouble had escalated in the early 1990s when the Kui, Kuvi and Kuee groups were added to the Kandhas in the ST list. Since then, Panas — who are classified as a Scheduled Caste (SC) — have been demanding their inclusion in the ST list as well. An ST can continue to get extra benefits as a tribal even after conversion to Christianity, but a SC member cannot. The Kandhas have been opposing this demand. It was in this backdrop that Hindu and Christian groups clashed on Christmas Eve in Brahmanigaon, about 150 km from district headquarter Phulbani. The problem intensified the same day when some people attacked the vehicle of local Hindu leader Swami Laxmananda Saraswati near Daringbadi when he was on his way to perform a yagna in Brahmanigaon. Then the tribals attacked Panas, damaged their churches and drove them out of their homes. Although there are isolated incidents of Panas attacking tribals, by and large it was a collective attack by thousands of tribals on Christian Panas and the main reason was not religion alone, a district police official said. Tribals feel local member of the state legislative assembly, Mr Padmanabha Behera and senior Congress leader and Rajya Sabha member, Mr Radhakanta Naik have joined hands and are helping Panas. UNQUOTE It is not about religion or Christmas. The issue is about SCHEDULED TRIBE status to the Panas SC converts and the facilities there to. IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY, HONEY. ;-) Mog asundi, Miguel Fresh violence in Orissa before Home Minister's visit IANS Phulbani (Orissa), Jan 2 The Union Home Minister, Mr Shivraj Patil arrived in Orissa on Wednesday to assess the situation in riot hit Kandhamal district amidst reports of fresh violence in the region over the past two days. Hundreds of people on Monday torched two houses, one each at villages Rabingia and Barpada, about 150 km from district headquarter Phulbani. Another mob attacked a house at Daringbadi village on Monday, the police said. A senior district police official told IANS there was no report of fresh violence since Tuesday morning, but the situation continues to remain critical. Mr Patil is scheduled to visit some parts of the riot-hit district, about 200 km from state capital Bhubaneswar. At least three people were killed in the district and dozens injured in communal clashes since Christmas Eve. The Home Minister arrived at the state capital on Wednesday morning, to be received by state Congress president Mr Jayadev Jena, leader of opposition, Mr J B Patnaik and senior officials, including state chief secretary, Mr Ajit Tripathy. On December 24, mobs allegedly owing allegiance to the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Bajrang Dal torched 14 churches in the district. Christian groups claim that nine people were killed in the attack. The Biju Janata Dal and Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) coalition government in Orissa has been accused of not taking appropriate and timely action in the matter. The state government has clamped a curfew in the district and deployed more than 1,500 policemen, including three companies of paramilitary forces, but the situation continues to remain tense. Kandhamal has a population of over 600,000. Of them, 450,000 are from the Hindu Scheduled Tribe (ST) Kandha while most of the others are Panas, 95 per cent of whom are Christians. The majority of the riot victims in the hill-slope villages surrounded by forests were Christians. Members of the Pana community are financially better off than the tribals. They have been dominating politics and occupy powerful posts in government, Mr Lambodar Kanhar, a tribal leader and secretary of Kui Samaj — the apex body of the Kandha tribe — told IANS. Kui is the mother tongue of the Kandhas. The region has witnessed numerous clashes in the past over attempts of conversion and re-conversion of tribals and Panas by both Christians and Hindus. The trouble had escalated in the early 1990s when the Kui, Kuvi and Kuee groups were added to the Kandhas in the ST list. Since then, Panas — who are classified as a Scheduled Caste (SC) — have been demanding their inclusion in the ST list as well. An ST can continue to get extra benefits as a
[Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa
Dear Sister Jane I have had my Education in Catholic DSE run School. I have never condoned the violence on people who are already converted to Christianity in Orrisa by a some section of people. I am also not against Christian Missionaries performing in India. In fact I hold in high esteem the great work done by Mother Theresa and others missionaries in India like Father Ceyrac, a French Jesuit, who is working to help cure and tender love to lepers in Tamil Nadu and he has not converted any person to Christianity. I agree with you that conversions are not done by use of violence by your Missionaries but luring the gullible poor illiterate tribal hindus by luring them economic benefits, this coercive religious conversion by global evangelical movements are posing political, social and ethical problems in secular India. Western countries have made advancements by the virtue of their natural resources, political stability and many other reasons but certainly not because of their religious faith and English language. Countries like Russia, Japan, China, Germany, Israel too have progressed without having Christian religion or English language as their base. Indians are migrating to other countries for better prospects not only to Christian countries but Muslim Gulf countries and Budhist East Asian Countries also. Vinay
Re: [Goanet] Torture of Christians in Orissa
It is nice to see articles being exposed when written without references and full disclosure. Yet now Goans should engage in combating blatantly false stories on Goa, even about contemporary Goa? There has been many posts on Goanet about a Christian church in Orissa being destroyed my militants. Yet, here is an article about Goa and Goan Christians, a small part of which is reproduce below, (with proper reference). Articles like this widely seen in cyberspace, serve to sow hatred towards Christians and towards Goans of all faiths. Most of these articles write what was recently posted on Goanet that the Inquisition in Goa was directed against the Hindus and used as an instrument of conversion. These supposedly original articles may not be plagiarized. Yet, some of them as part of their researched reference quote goanetters and Goanet posts. To give credibility to the true or alleged quotes, the author 'awards' the posters titles like Professor, Doctor, and some fictional novel writers are called Historian. From the Goanetter's point of view, it is important that our posts, as far as possible reflect the facts and not the assumptions; however useful these assumptions may be to bait other Goans. Kind Regards, GL From the Hindu Writers' Forum, New Delhi, 2001 Dr. K.V. Paliwall, PhD Goa though liberated in 1961 from Portuguese rule is still suffering from the influence of the Catholics who are dominating and taking undue advantage of minority status while Hindus (85% of total population) are living like slaves under suppression / oppression and conversions are still going ahead in full speed. Perhaps the worst situation or mistreatment is accorded in Goa and our leaders are remaining silent spectators, pampering them as vote bank a matter of shame indeed. In fact, some Hindu leaders of a particular political party headed by a Catholic are themselves anti Hindu since Independence. If they introspect, they will realise what they are doing against peace loving Hindus-a matter of treachery indeed. Regards,
[Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa
Dear Vinay, I am surprised at your comments as given in your below e-mail. I am personally against conversion of any one, from 1 religion to another. I personally believe, that a person should follow the religion, she/he was born into. I also believe that I am very lucky to be born an Indian, because the constitution of our country guarantees us, the freedom to practise the religion of our choice. Do you also believe that if a Christian wants to convert to another religion, in a christian country, that she/he has the right to ne tortured, because she/he is suddenly a threat to that Christian nation Are you trying to say, that our non-violent, Catholic nuns and priests, who, leave their homes and families, live a life without marriage and children, live far away in states away from their homes, live a simple life, simple food, who, by caring for their fellow non-christian Indians such as - orphans, widows, aids patients, sick, dying,destitute, lepers, all victims of violence and torture, as well as educating all, irrespective of caste, creed or religion, are -- threatening the very existence of India as a nation (as per your e-mail below). These catholic nuns and priests do all the work above, for no monetary compensation. Have you ever asked yourself the questions - why??? Could you please tell me:- Why are so many non-christian Indians:- (1)rushing for immigration to Christian countries? (2) rushing and fighting for admissions to Christian schools and colleges in India?? Infact, I am also shocked that our Indian ministers are openly inviting the christian countries to set up their companies in India, as well as carrying on trade with them. I am equally shocked that Indians(including non-christians), who are the most intelligent in the whole world, are working in christian countries and by paying taxes to these countries, they are helping to make these christian countries, strong and powerful and rich nations. Like you, I also feel it is a shame that Indians are deserting our motherland, to reside/work in christian countries. In fact majority of schools in India are converting to english-medium schools from other-medium schools. Why??? is English not the mother-tongue of these Christian countries? Like you, I feel proud and privileged to be called an Indian and I thank God, to be born an Indian. Hence I am shocked to see so many non-christian Goans deserting Goa and migrating to foreign countries like UK, Canada etc. When the World Bank (whose major contributors are from Christian countries), has given aid to India, why have you not written to our government not to accept?? In fact, you will be happy to know that christian countries do not torture their own christian citizens. when they convert to Hinduism or any other religion, in their country. In fact, people throughout the World know that Hindus are very peaceful, loving, caring and kind people. Like you I feel sad to know that Indians are torturing their sisters and brothers in Orissa especially, as per our PLEDGE in all our text-books in India, one lovely line reads - all Indians are my brothers and sisters. All religions are good and all religions, including Hinduism is a religion that only talks about peace, love and caring for our brothers and sisters. I ask you - Should Indians attack each other in the name of religion? If you personally feel, for whatever reason, it is correct to torture innocent human beings, in India, I have nothing more to say. = Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:16:38 -0800 (PST) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Church leaders urge PM for police protection to Christians - to Bhandare To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 The contents of the post appended below have been plagiarized from the following articles: http://conversionagenda.blogspot.com/2005/03/coercive-religious-conversion-crime.html http://www.geocities.com/focussrilanka/gautier02.htm Cheers, Santosh --- Vinay Natekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Chinmay Religious conversion of Hindus is threatening individuals, families, communities and the nation. Coercive religious conversion of Hindus contains a threat to spiritual tradition and the freedom of choice. If carried unchecked, coercive religious conversion would threaten the very existence of India as a nation. ...
[Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa
Dear Jane: The claim that is repeated ad nauseaum is that ALL christian missionaries are involved in humanatarian work and are somehow involved in the uplift of the opressed classes by providing them with education.This claim is patently bogus and mischiveous. If you have followed the news in Goa itself there have been at least three instances of vandalism against belivers by roman catholcs themselves. Just imagine if fellow goan christians can take so much offence against the activities of these missioanries ho much volatile the situation would be in tribal orrisa. The difference is no mainstream press would cal that genocide of believers by roman catholic fundamentalists in goa. regards bhandare Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: [Goanet] torture of christians in Orissa
On 1 Jan 2008 07:42:47 -, jane gillian rodrigues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Vinay, I am surprised at your comments as given in your below e-mail... Could you please tell me:- Why are so many non-christian Indians:- (1)rushing for immigration to Christian countries? (2) rushing and fighting for admissions to Christian schools and colleges in India?? RESPONSE: With due respect, Vinay is going one better - he is subservient to the Muslims. Arabs treat their own first, then Muslims almost on par, then ChristiansHindus are or the third rung order - Vinay grunts and bears, in the name of Arab moolah ! If I was a Hindu I would not work in the Gulf States - no matter what. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
