Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
Marshal wrote: Incidentally, the USA and Canada among the most affluent countries in the world have the highest number of psychiatric cases. Comment: Marshall, we do not need to support our case on the number of psychiatric cases in USA and Canada. All we need to do is measure the Goan prosperity after transition from farming to white collar and foreign jobs. Goa has now been declared the diabetes capital of India. We have doctors and clinics flourishing at every nook and corner of the State. Even our government hospitals are now being turned into private super speciality hospitals. The pharmaceutical campanies are thriving. It is not uncommon to find a Goan with a by-pass or stent or pace maker. Leave aside the cholestrol affected Goan trying to desperately fight the condition by spending thousands in the gym. Farming brings you poverty but economic prosperity brings even the cardio-vascular surgeon to your doorstep, leave aside the bank manager from the neighbouring State. -soter
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
Marshal, just because Indian society frowns upon mental illness and keeps it behind the closet and just because the medical institutions do not have the resources to properly diagnose mental illness, does not mean that there is less of it there! Soter, it is not economic prosperity that is leading to the surge in diabetes and cardio-vascular issues, but rather ignorance about diet and health. Yet another misdiagnosis by Soter, who seems to be advocating a return to an age of poverty and ignorance instead of affluence and enlightenment. Marlon From: soter so...@bsnl.in Marshal wrote: Incidentally, the USA and Canada among the most affluent countries in the world have the highest number of psychiatric cases. Comment: Marshall, we do not need to support our case on the number of psychiatric cases in USA and Canada. All we need to do is measure the Goan prosperity after transition from farming to white collar and foreign jobs. Goa has now been declared the diabetes capital of India. We have doctors and clinics flourishing at every nook and corner of the State. Even our government hospitals are now being turned into private super speciality hospitals. The pharmaceutical campanies are thriving. It is not uncommon to find a Goan with a by-pass or stent or pace maker. Leave aside the cholestrol affected Goan trying to desperately fight the condition by spending thousands in the gym. Farming brings you poverty but economic prosperity brings even the cardio-vascular surgeon to your doorstep, leave aside the bank manager from the neighbouring State. -soter
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
What Soter says about prices of produce is correct. But is it not the unchecked powers of the government that is responsible for this? It works both ways - sometimes in favor of the farmers and sometimes in favor of the consumers. When the government imposes price controls or bans exports, the farmer cannot get the market price for his produce. When the government subsidies water usage for the farmer (mostly ground water), it encourages waste and a receding water table. Ditto for fertilizers, diesel fuel, electricity . What does not change however, is regardless of whether the government giveth or taketh, it always gets its cut. Unfortunately, leftists like Soter believe that the government is the solution, when it is in fact the main problem. As far as mechanization, it has been already stated that this has not been implemented very successfully thanks to farm sizes being relatively small in Goa. Marlon From: soter so...@bsnl.in Mervyn wrote: As a former farm labourer, I can assure all here that farm work is back breaking and the sure path to poverty. Real economic progress comes from industrialisation. Green/golden rice fields should remain only in the realms of nostalgics and dreamers. comment: This is typical 'town boy' argument as Pinheiro has rightly labelled it in one of his posts. If it is cheap labour that was the problem then the machines have now been put into operation in several areas. This should fix the problem if it is so simple. Mervyn acknowledges that farm work is back breaking but no sooner the onions and potato prices increase, we have the 'town boys' screaming against price rice urging government to put curbs on exports and so on. Farming is back breaking for those who become habitual with living on other people's so to say blood and sweat. While we have a fast growing tribe of blood sucker 'town boys' who sell their services and skills to the highest bidder in the inudstrialised market, when it comes to agricultural produce this very 'town boy' wants cheap labour and his vegetables and milk at a throw away price. For his own rare product, he will keep a high price but when it comes to buying his food the same parameters will never be acceptable to 'Town boys'. This is the hypocrisy of an urbanised industrial economy and its exploitative mindsets. -Soter
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
Marlon wrote: Soter, it is not economic prosperity that is leading to the surge in diabetes and cardio-vascular issues, but rather ignorance about diet and health. Yet another misdiagnosis by Soter, who seems to be advocating a return to an age of poverty and ignorance instead of affluence and enlightenment. Comment: So all those experts who dub diabetes as a disease of life style are fools. It is this affliction with Marlon's so found affluence and enlightenment from a market driven economy that ensures the prosperity of diabetes and other chronic ailments. May the tribe of Marlon increase and may the medical fraternity prosper. Poor are the those who have forgotten their past and ignorant are those who fail to understand the truths of the ages. -Soter
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
Marlon wrote: What Soter says about prices of produce is correct. But is it not the unchecked powers of the government that is responsible for this? It works both ways - sometimes in favor of the farmers and sometimes in favor of the consumers. When the government imposes price controls or bans exports, the farmer cannot get the market price for his produce. When the government subsidies water usage for the farmer (mostly ground water), it encourages waste and a receding water table. Ditto for fertilizers, diesel fuel, electricity . What does not change however, is regardless of whether the government giveth or taketh, it always gets its cut. Unfortunately, leftists like Soter believe that the government is the solution, when it is in fact the main problem. As far as mechanization, it has been already stated that this has not been implemented very successfully thanks to farm sizes being relatively small in Goa. Comment: Soter believes that the government is solution? Marlon fortunately is focussing only on my left hand. Thank God for once someone is ascribing a pro-government colour to my opinions and needs to convey this to Digu bab. Now marlon attributes non-implementation of mechanisation to farm sizes. Are xannea, Goa's agricultural lands have a varied soil strata and therefore what works in Ker and Morods will not work in khazans and vice versa. Not that gadgets are not available but have to be imported and therefore costly. Government of Goa has not invested enough in research on low cost tools and equipment for agriculture. We depend on Kerala for its innovations. Appears that some are raising points just to pass their time. So I will not repsond after this on any of this rubbish. Goa's young enlightened tribe is at its peak. -Soter
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost II
soter wrote: I think you are just passing your time now. Now you embark upon comparing a youth in Canada with that in Goa. Is that a fair parallel you are trying to draw? Yes, the youth in Goa wants to sell his services to the highest bidder and today is not restricted to the highest bidder in Goa. If you want that youth to remain in Goa, you better open your eyes to what is available to him/her. The least thing s/he would want to develop is farming skills which would mean s/he retains skills that would sustain the youth at poverty levels both in and outside Goa. Someone sitting in Canada is not in a position to judge our level of contentment and progress. Would you call farmers in Haryana, and Punjab poor? If at all they have been reduced to poverty it is the western world's introduction of biotechnologically modified seed and the whole lot of fertilizers and pesticides dumped on developing countries. India's 'geen revolution' based on western agricultural sciences was the beginning of disaster. I spent the last week in N. India. The poverty there is sickening. Peasants and farmers are walking around like living skeletons, looking for work. I am sorry, as you say we live in different worlds and we are happy in our world. We do not measure our progress in dollars and pounds. Money is not everything for us. I get it. You go to work for altruistic reasons. So, I close this topic here as we have better things to do. For a moment there I was unsure if you had any points to defend. I wish you luck on your better things. Mervyn1408Lobo
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
Marshall Mendonza wrote: Incidentally, the USA and Canada among the most affluent countries in the world have the highest number of psychiatric cases. Marshall, I this part of the belief system or do you have the evidence to support your statement? Mervyn1409Lobo
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
soter wrote: If it is cheap labour that was the problem then the machines have now been put into operation in several areas. This should fix the problem if it is so simple. Mervyn acknowledges that farm work is back breaking but no sooner the onions and potato prices increase, we have the 'town boys' screaming against price rice urging government to put curbs on exports and so on. Farming is back breaking for those who become habitual with living on other people's so to say blood and sweat. While we have a fast growing tribe of blood sucker 'town boys' who sell their services and skills to the highest bidder in the inudstrialised market, when it comes to agricultural produce this very 'town boy' wants cheap labour and his vegetables and milk at a throw away price. For his own rare product, he will keep a high price but when it comes to buying his food the same parameters will never be acceptable to 'Town boys'. This is the hypocrisy of an urbanised industrial economy and its exploitative mindsets. Soter, I grew up in Africa. Govts there kept the prices of agricultural products, both food and cash crops, under tight control. The IMF and World Bank complained for decades that the African farmer had to sell his crop for pittance to the town dwellers. Here in N. America, it is commodity traders who decide the price of every thing from oil to chocolate. The price is decided on supply and demand. There is no trading house or cabal of trading houses that can set the price of any commodity as competitors are just waiting to find faults in pricing and severely punish those who have made the wrong bet. Again, the farmer has little or no control on what he gets paid for this efforts. Now let me try and make my point as clear as I can. Hunting, gathering and farming are occupations for those with little or no education. Those who have to make their living from these activities, are in economic hardships. Those who have moved away from these activities have a better chance of economic prosperity. The bottom line is that I have yet to see an economy that is prospering because of its great agricultural policy. Eat from the tree of knowledge. Else you will remain dependent on the whims of others for your survival. Mervyn1389Lobo
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
Mervyn wrote: Now let me try and make my point as clear as I can. Hunting, gathering and farming are occupations for those with little or no education. Those who have to make their living from these activities, are in economic hardships. Those who have moved away from these activities have a better chance of economic prosperity. The bottom line is that I have yet to see an economy that is prospering because of its great agricultural policy. Comment: Jumbo Bwana. I am really ashamed to read such claims from a someone who grew up in Africa. It is my childhood in Africa and particularly the taste of kitchen gardening in my school curriculam there that gave me my first taste for the subject and my deep love for nature. Leave aside my great days thereafter in Goa with my grandmother who cultivated a cart load of onions and the famous Aldona chillies besides paddy and nachni and other vegetables. I have never witnessed any poverty. Do labour toiling in factories not experience hardship? Hiware Bazar in Ahmednagar district is one village which is 100% agriculture had as many as 50 millionaires 2 years ago. A village which receives just 2 inches of rainfall per annum and was in abject poverty and drunkenness 15 years ago is today in the news as the one of the most progressive village in Maharashtra. Every famuily has a monthly saving of Rs. 5000. So what are you talking about? Do you want more stories from India? I know a woman from Ponda taluka who just makes a living by growing 'Zaieo' flowers and vegetables and has an annual income of around 1 lakh. She has educated 3 children who have also graduated but continue to help her. I know a farmer in Mapusa whose 2 sons have graduated and continue in farming and are among the progressive farmers leading the farmers movement . I just cannot understand from where you have gathered this idea that agriculture spells poverty. Which economy and agricultural policy are you talking about? -soter
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
soter wrote: I know a woman from Pondataluka who just makes a living by growing 'Zaieo' flowers and vegetables and has an annual income of around 1 lakh. She has educated 3 children who have also graduated but continue to help her. I know a farmer in Mapusa whose 2 sons have graduated and continue in farming and are among the progressive farmers leading the farmers movement . I just cannot understand from where you have gathered this idea that agriculture spells poverty. Which economy and agricultural policy are you talking about? -- -soter, We live on the same planet but in different worlds. Here in Canada, a teenager, working at his first job, can earn 1 lakh rupees PER MONTH. That kind of income would still leave him at poverty levels. Any farmer with an ANNUAL income of 1 lakh rupees can only be living a life of sustenance. For economic progress, one needs savings. To answer your last question, I am talking about the agriculture policy of any country or economy. All I ask is you to show me an economy that is progressing because of its great agricultural policy. Mervyn1395Lobo
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
Mervyn wrote: Here in Canada, a teenager, working at his first job, can earn 1 lakh rupees PER MONTH. That kind of income would still leave him at poverty levels. Any farmer with an ANNUAL income of 1 lakh rupees can only be living a life of sustenance. For economic progress, one needs savings. Comment: I think you are just passing your time now. Now you embark upon comparing a youth in Canada with that in Goa. Is that a fair parallel you are trying to draw? Someone sitting in Canada is not in a position to judge our level of contentment and progress. Would you call farmers in Haryana, and Punjab poor? If at all they have been reduced to poverty it is the western world's introduction of biotechnologically modified seed and the whole lot of fertilizers and pesticides dumped on developing countries. India's 'geen revolution' based on western agricultural sciences was the beginning of disaster. I am sorry, as you say we live in different worlds and we are happy in our world. We do not measure our progress in dollars and pounds. Money is not everything for us. So, I close this topic here as we have better things to do. Soter
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
pinheiro wrote: Why United States the so-called free market economy powerhouse/the world superpower gives subsidies to its farmers? Are these subsidies found/grown in US farms too? http://farm.ewg.org/region.php?fips=0 --- Folks, It is not only the US that gives subsidies to its farmers. Japan does the same for its rice growers and nearly every country in the EU has large subsidy programs for their farmers. The bottom line is that because of the subsidies, it becomes almost impossible for a farmer in the developing world, who earns $4 A DAY, to compete against his counterpart from the developed world where the minimum wage for farm hands is $4 PER HOUR. As for Goa's fields, I recently spoke to some land owners in my ancestral village. They have been unable to cultivated their rice fields for a number of years now. Their explanation is always the same. There is a sever shortage of labour as no one wants to work in the fields after they are educated. As a former farm labourer, I can assure all here that farm work is back breaking and the sure path to poverty. Real economic progress comes from industrialisation. Green/golden rice fields should remain only in the realms of nostalgics and dreamers. Lastly, the economies of India and China remained stagnant when the central planers focused on the activities of peasants and farmers. Thankfully those in power today, in both countries, are directing their energies into sectors other than agriculture. Mervyn1389Lobo .
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
Mervyn wrote: As a former farm labourer, I can assure all here that farm work is back breaking and the sure path to poverty. Real economic progress comes from industrialisation. Green/golden rice fields should remain only in the realms of nostalgics and dreamers. comment: This is typical 'town boy' argument as Pinheiro has rightly labelled it in one of his posts. If it is cheap labour that was the problem then the machines have now been put into operation in several areas. This should fix the problem if it is so simple. Mervyn acknowledges that farm work is back breaking but no sooner the onions and potato prices increase, we have the 'town boys' screaming against price rice urging government to put curbs on exports and so on. Farming is back breaking for those who become habitual with living on other people's so to say blood and sweat. While we have a fast growing tribe of blood sucker 'town boys' who sell their services and skills to the highest bidder in the inudstrialised market, when it comes to agricultural produce this very 'town boy' wants cheap labour and his vegetables and milk at a throw away price. For his own rare product, he will keep a high price but when it comes to buying his food the same parameters will never be acceptable to 'Town boys'. This is the hypocrisy of an urbanised industrial economy and its exploitative mindsets. -Soter
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost
Pinheiro, No matter how you (or Soter) attempt to slice and dice it - the fact remains that the obsolete labor intensive methods of agriculture cannot survive without low cost labor. If in case you missed it, I vaguely mentioned it on the subject header. Unless you wish to invent a backwards time machine, it is highly unlikely you will get cheap Goan labor in the future. I also agree with you and Soter that the solution to the problem of high food prices - is even higher cost, low volume agricultural practices. You suggested subsidies for farmers to enhance more agriculture. Presumably the money for this would also grow in the paddy fields. As for Parrikar, the hindi speaking pseudo Goan migrant who has a penchant for picturesque verbal diarrhea, may I suggest he use his dung to promote sustainable agriculture in Soter's and Pinheiro's communes. Marlon From: pinheiro gift.pinhe...@gmail.com Back then (before 90's) the paddy cultivation in Goan households was more of family and neighbors affair. Back then, the Family structure was not as we see it today (1 or 2 kids) as most families had four or more children or they were living with extended families. Did some wrote on this forum that he cannot see many pregnant ladies in Goa. The field work was carried out by within each house hold or in barter system. The people use to work in each others fields (no money paid) even if outside labour was used, they were paid in kind (paddy) not cash. With the change in lifestyle and thanks to faulty education system the paddy cultivation and agriculture as a whole is on decline. Successive government failed to come with sustainable agricultural policies. Cumminidade land gifted to tiller who have no interest in paddy cultivation or any other crop. One solution for revival of paddy cultivation would be formation of co-operative movement and then government extending support to them by give free or subsidies to buy small / medium size machines to till and harvest paddy. From: Rajan P. Parrikar parri...@yahoo.com Translation: Although I, Marlon I-know-how-to-spell Menezes, got called out bullsh*tting on matters I know nothing about, I will continue to make an ass of myself in a public forum. Marlon-bhaiyya (as in UP bhaiyya) should wonder no more. Big daddy P is related to me, as is potato-head Digu.
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost manual labor
Elvino wrote: It is not the exact truth why agriculture is a dying industry in Goa that it is because of the lack of manpower. People have stopped cultivating lands because it is not feasible due to high cost of Labour in Goa now. The migrant if welcomed by Marlon they are still excessively available in Goa but Goans still find the labour is very expensive. Since they (migrants) are already available in very excessive numbers whether Arwin, Soter or Rajan like it or not but the agriculture labour still very expensive and to much laborious. This is the real reason and Marlon got it wrong why the lands are not cultivated. Comment: I agree with a lot of what Elvino says. Firstly, Goa's agriculture land holdings were meant to build self-reliant and self-sustained families and were not meant for profits. There are families in maharashtra sustaining themselves on 1 acre of land. Our agriculture was not meant to hire labour. Family members chipped in. If at all extra labour was need it worked on a barter system called 'bodlo'. I give 3 days in your field you give me 3 days in return in my field. If at all wages were paid for those who did not have fields, they were given a worth in kind like so many measures of paddy and so on. Thereby the food stock of landless persons was also built up. Secondly, The migrants have not done any favour to Goans. Instead they have carefully orchestrated a situation whereby they eliminated all local labour. The migrants are now exploiting the situation which has made them unaffordable to the Goan. How did they do it? When our local labour wage was Rs. 120, these migrants were ready to work for Rs. 80. This is similar to how Philipino labour displaced Indian labour in the gulf. Foolish Goans prefered to employ the migrants to save the Rs. 40. But the work of local labour was of far superior quality when compared to that of the migrant and any Goan who has personally worked in the fields will vouch for that. The local labour is very aware of his worth and is not ready to be exploited by the employer. So gradually the local labour finding no employment prefered to stray away into other streams of livelihood No sooner that happened the migrants raised their demands much more than what the local labour was demanding. Secondly the migrant work force that works in the field descend into Goa only after they have finished with their work in the fields back home. Thereby there is a loss of time in the agriculture operations in Goa. They treat Goa like the gulf and make as much money as they can and go return to their village. The migrants in turn contribute to so many social and health problems. Thirdly, the soil conditions and other physical conditions have deteriorated due to pollution of all kinds. Air and sunlight has been blocked by high rise building, waste water, eroded soil finds its way into the fields along with it is non bio-degradable garbage and so on. The bundhs have not been maintained and often the mafia break the sluice gates and flood the fields for fish farming. So also, the plough or power tillers are not available in time and so on. These factors further increases the burden for the farmer and makes agriculture non-profitable. Fourthly, in case of paddy there is a hell lot of work till it reaches the mill. Spaces for drying and boiling the paddy are diminishing. The present generation of youngsters have not cultivated the physique and stamina for such kind of work. The psyche of everyone is to look for a job in some industry. So matters are not so simple as is being made out by marlon and company.
Re: [Goanet] Death of Goa's fields - thanks to the lack of low cost manual labour
COMMENT : Soter has forgotten one main reason that started the downfall of our rice cultivation. Both the Acts, Mundkar Act and the Agricultural tenancy Act were vote oriented Acts by Bandodkar. It was put into the heads of the populace that they were bonded labourers like in the counterparts of India. They relished the idea of becoming ‘batcars’ overnight without any effort. I remember their election slogan: “Mundcaranc batt, Xethcaranc Xeth”. Then came free education and the overnight landowner farmers themselves used to state that their children will now be doctors, engineers, etc. and in fact sneer at the original land owners. These people are all not yet dead, some live to see the outcome of their conceitedness. Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
