Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- I must remind Chacha that the "nattering naboobs" speech was written by William Safire, who I have mentioned in this debate. He was then the chief speech writer for the white house. eugene --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Apropos, Alfred de Stockholm. Likewise, the word nabob (nawab) brought to mind Hurree Jamset Ram Singh, "Indian Prince, Nabob of the fictional state of Bhanipur, where he was taught a strange version of English. Nicknamed 'Inky'" -- from the fictional school Greyfrairs; of whom we read as kids in the Billy Bunter books. HJRS was in the Lower Fourth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyfriars_School Although the coinage is not by the Portuguese, one can/may imagine relatives of Goans who were bandmasters in many of the former princely states talking about how well, or worse their other relative also a bandmaster was doing in the employ of some other prince/raja, or nawab's band: To samko nabob kosso. Kitem techo jett. Koslim techim angostram. (He is just like a nawab! What style/affectation. Such clothes/threads.) There is nabobery (n), nabobism (n), nabobish (adj); so we can at least have our lott-fot nabobponn. venantius j pinto From: Alfred de Tavares > To: Eric Pinto , GOANET Lists > > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English? > > > > Brings, nostalgically, back Spiro Agnew's formidable > "nattering nabobs of nepotism"...and, so on... > > There are real prople foo go on in that genre... > > Chacha. > > --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
---
Goanet Classifieds
---
Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects
and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa
Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011
Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training
---
Hi Eugene,
I remember hearing it as "lott-fot." The "lot" sounds like to push
(lottya) in Konkani, the "fot" sounded as lie (untruth) in Konkani.
Apologies if you are using the the "a" in lat-fat, as in Konkani
phonology.
venantius j pinto
From: Eugene Correia
To: goa...@goanet.org
Subject: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
(DEL)
This sort of
"lat-fat" (isn't that what mixed-up English in Goa is mockingly said?) is
current usage.
(DEL)
Eugene
---
Protect Goa's natural beauty
Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve
Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php
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Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Carvalho wrote: 'resident Goans . obviously by some Divine quirk have been bestowed with not just comprehensive but prescient knowledge of problems relating to Goa and its possible solutions.' COMMENT: I agree. One of these days, they will also be bestowed with the sense to get off their butts and put that knowledge into action. jc --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Hi Eugene, You've made some interesting points, which I agree with. Others, I would see differently. Some quick responses: * "Konkani is neglected by children in Goa today." On the contrary. Never before has it been force-fed to them as strongly as it is being done today. Most have it for four years in primary school, almost compulsory -- if you can't pay a significant fee, or attend a school run by an institution headed by Rane's wife and run with government grants. In some churches, Konkani is compulsory for mass and cathecism. Mind you, this is not simple, spoken Konkani (it reflects the elitism of a Selma) but what our friend, the sociologist Dr W. R da Silva (himself a priest) would bluntly call Bamonbhas and Padribhas. * Among the diaspora, how many are fluent with what is today accepted as "Konkani" in Goa? That includes the Devanagari script, and (mostly) the Antruzi variant? This has been the case in the past too (admittedly less among the older generation, but they had less of English and the Romi script to lean on). * How would you define "first language"? "Mother tongue"? Or "second language"? If someone most of the time speaks, writes, reads and studies in a language (today, almost 99% of Goa is studying in English at the secondary and tertiary levels, and nobody seems to have a problem with that!) then how does it not become your "first language"? What happens when mothers (and fathers) speak English at home, and why deny that so many are doing it these days, for whatever reason? * The problem with filling Konkani as the unquestioned mother tongue for emotional reasons is (i) it allows the government to push through a controversial Official Language(s) Act (ii) it allows a small group to enforce one kind of Konkani on many other variants from across Goa and beyond (iii) some get the right to claim that others don't know "standard" Konkani, or the "right" script (iv) this is then used as a justification to also make you a stranger in your own home. As the Romiwadis have realised, no amount of attempting to "fit in" might really work * I would suspect that Konkani's cause would be better served by less fanaticism, less decimation of scripts and dialects in the name of standardisation, and less forcing it down the throats of reluctant others. Thanks for the other points you've made. I don't know why we get so hot under the collar when it comes to language. Don't we have anything else to prove our loyalty to our roots? Do we anyway feel so alienated? While Selma claims that Goans can't express themselves (after creating a stereotype and a strawman based obviously on the underpriviledged section of Goans), Peter Nazareth tells us that Goans have written literature (and other topics) in as many as 13 different languages! Way to go! And I can't resist answering two additional questions you raise, since as a sometimes resident-in-Goa, I have this superior insight into all things: On 21 November 2011 00:09, Eugene Correia wrote: > I am bit surprised to learn that Goa's standards in English language are > "declining." ... > Selma must inform us which year or period English was at its highlest level > in Goa and where it is now. I do not recall the exact year, at this point of time, but that was immediately after Selma herself migrated from Goa. > BTW, I heard Selma's interview with Fred on UTube, where she speaks of her > book, but I didn't decipher the Britishness in her language. That was for my benefit of course, duh! FN PS: Unfortunately, my earlier pyjama-typed, and valid it seems to me, points turned victim to the British potato-chops! --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- On 20 November 2011 12:59, Eugene Correia wrote: > May I ask the erstwhile Selma or her pubblisher, Fred Noronha, if her book > Into The Dispora Wilderness was edited by anyone else other than herself? Oh gawd, this is a deadly question. As is normal of all suspects, I too reserve the right not to say anything that could incriminate myself in this court of law. Queen's justice! FN erstwhile [ˈɜːstˌwaɪl] adj former; one-time my erstwhile companions adv Archaic long ago; formerly --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Brings, nostalgically, back Spiro Agnew's formidable "nattering nabobs of nepotism"...and, so on... There are real prople foo go on in that genre... Chacha. > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 05:27:24 -0800 > From: ericpin...@yahoo.com > To: goanet@lists.goanet.org > Subject: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English? > > --- > Goanet Classifieds > --- > >Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects > > and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa > >Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 > > Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training > > --- > > > > > > Spot on ! And to be more accurate, Selma, our youth have NO other language > in which they can cultivate all you lament. > I recall it was Naguesh Bhatcar who raised the issue of 'impaired > development of cognitive thinking in the absence of a clearly enunciated > narrative ability.' > eric. > > > ---. > Which means they do not have another language with which to cultivate > thoughts on art, politics, literature, philosophy and science - everything > that advances the cause of human societies. And if you don't have the > machinery to cultivate thoughts, your thoughts themselves condense. > > . At the heart of all human development lies language. . > > Selma. > > > --- > >Protect Goa's natural beauty > > Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve > > Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php > > --- --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Not that I want to be seen as currying favour but Santosh has made my point better than I ever could. Frederick, I understand perfectly what you are trying to say. No "expat Goan" can ever "shed tears" for Goa. That privilege belongs only to resident Goans who obviously by some Divine quirk have been bestowed with not just comprehensive but prescient knowledge of problems relating to Goa and its possible solutions. I get it now. Best, Selma --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English? (Surely not Selma!)
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- On 20 November 2011 22:08, Mervyn Lobo wrote: > As you can imagine, there is a Catch 22 or irony when one is taking > a "Test of English as Foreign Language" and marks of English as > his/her native tongue. Talking about which, I am amazed how geography, expectations and racism sometimes shows up in the early 21st century. When I did a review of the late Dr. Cleo Odzer's book *Goa Freaks* (recommended reading if anyone wants to understand one interpretation of hippy tourism in Goa, but hard to locate), the author appeared a bit surprised that I could write in passable English. The review, for those who might be curious (remember the cat anyway!), is here: http://www.amazon.com/Goa-Freaks-Hippie-Years-India/product-reviews/156201059X Then, I have this friend, who is an IIT-educated engineer based in New Delhi. Patrice Reimens will know whom I'm talking about :-) Apparently, some Western lady journalist (British, I think) rang him up late one night, and asked him for some comment on some subject. Now, not everyone is flattered when a journalist (or even a foreign journalist) rings up, particularly if it's late at night, I guess. AM narrated to me how the conversation went, and I quote from memory: BLJ (British Lady Journalist): Can we do a short interview? AM: Not now really BLJ: Oh, but you speak good English... AM: ... and so do you! That was that, I guess! Maybe sometime in the 22nd or 23rd century, we will be able to break the link between the brown skin and a poor quality of English. Or, for that matter, between the plebs (and the less affluent) and poor English. I'm sure it need not be that way till kingdom come... Already, our good friend Dr Luis Dias is taking his dream forward and teaching streetkids how to play the violin! That too in Goa... To those who have dreams, I dare you: come back (at least for awhile) and show what you can do! FN --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Selma Carvalho wrote: Those who speak English as a second language, which is what a vast majority of Indians do, can >speak it as proficiently or deficiently as they wish. And Frederick responded Even here, your figures and claims are incorrect. To quote a recent (Mar 2010) report from the Times of India, "English was the primary language for barely 2.3 lakh Indians at the time of the census, more than 86 million listed it as their second language and another 39 million as their third language." [3] --- Frederick, it feels like you jumped out of bed in your pyjamas and decided to bang out some words on your type-writer in the hope that some coherent argument will form. Sadly, that is not how coherent arguments form. To give you an idea of your incoherence, I have cut-n-pasted above your counter-argument that "more than 8.6 million listed English as their second language and 39 million as their third." I believe that is exactly what I said, that the "vast majority of Indians" speak English as a second language. I seriously wonder whether you read my posts at all or whether when you see the name "Carvalho" appear, you immediately think to yourself that you must find a counter-argument in your arsena of used and hackneyed arguments (the most famous of which is "blame it on the expat" followed by "what are you doing about it?"). I know the dialectic tradition must be celebrated but surely this tradition calls for some semblance of accuracy when rebutting. Van will you learn men? As for the rest of your post, sorry, but I rather be cooking potato-chops in my English kitchenette than responding to something that makes no sense whatsoever. And in summation, if you think things in Goa are all hunky-dory, then hats off to you. The Alice in Wonderland syndrome is not a bad thing to suffer from. One green chillie, two potatoes and 1 packet of minced meat... Best, Selma --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- It looks like the fair point that Selma has tried to make, Admin Noronha has chosen to misunderstand. The point is not that Goans should not speak English in a Konknni accent or use transliterated Konknni expressions when they are speaking English as a second language. The point is two-fold: 1. When Goans learn English they ought to learn it properly in terms of its grammar and vocabulary. They ought to have teachers that teach it properly. 2. If they decide to use it as their primary language at home, in school and at work, and shun their native Konknni or Portuguese or whatever, then they ought to learn to speak it properly, or at the very least make certain that their kids do so. It is absolutely true that if you do not know how to express yourself at a minimum level of proficiency in what you yourself regard as your primary language of expression, then you are unlikely to be able to think complex thoughts, and indeed, learn and discuss anything of substance. Cheers, Santosh - Original Message - From: Frederick FN Noronha फ्रेडरिक नोरोन्या *فريدريك نورونيا Selma, > American English is a language, Pidgin English on the other hand is not. > Please do not > confuse the issue of a evolving language with that of a language spoken > badly. This is > a spurious and misleading argument. Not sure what you say above is right. Pidgin English -- and there are many -- is not a form of English. It is one of many languages derived from English[1]. My journalist friend Frank Senge, of Papua New Guinea, spoke Tok Pisin [2], the official language of Papua New Guinea and the most widely used language in that country. > Those who speak English as a second language, which is what a vast majority > of Indians do, can > speak it as proficiently or deficiently as they wish. Even here, your figures and claims are incorrect. To quote a recent (Mar 2010) report from the Times of India, "English was the primary language for barely 2.3 lakh Indians at the time of the census, more than 86 million listed it as their second language and another 39 million as their third language." [3] --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Selma, > American English is a language, Pidgin English on the other hand is not. > Please do not > confuse the issue of a evolving language with that of a language spoken > badly. This is > a spurious and misleading argument. Not sure what you say above is right. Pidgin English -- and there are many -- is not a form of English. It is one of many languages derived from English[1]. My journalist friend Frank Senge, of Papua New Guinea, spoke Tok Pisin [2], the official language of Papua New Guinea and the most widely used language in that country. > Those who speak English as a second language, which is what a vast majority > of Indians do, can > speak it as proficiently or deficiently as they wish. Even here, your figures and claims are incorrect. To quote a recent (Mar 2010) report from the Times of India, "English was the primary language for barely 2.3 lakh Indians at the time of the census, more than 86 million listed it as their second language and another 39 million as their third language." [3] > They are using English to be merely functional. The large number of Tamilians > who migrate to the > US and UK as IT professionals speak very poor English but it doesn't matter > because they are > brilliant in IT and outside the confines of their plush offices, they will > not be heard speaking > English. They have their own rich language in which to further literature, > math, science and > philosophy. And pray, why can't the humble Goan choose to speak English the way he or she chooses? S/he might not be "brilliant" in "IT", but uses the language as a tool to get on with life, to do what needs to be done, to communicate with people from across the world, whether it's from Canada or Croatia! > My concern is with Catholic Goans who for various historical reasons - mainly > Portuguese > colonisation which brought them in contact with a Western language and > English is just a > carry-on from that - have chosen to make English their first language. People who have chosen to make English their first language, like you, already claim a link with the Queen's English. So why shed a tear for them? Agreed, those who are in the transition to seeking an English-language passport will take some time before they face less contemptuous "Foo will titch our chillren English?" attitudes. > They use it in school, > at home and in social discourse. Which means they do not have another > language with which > to cultivate thoughts on art, politics, literature, philosophy and science > - everything that > advances the cause of human societies. And if you don't have the machinery to > cultivate >thoughts, your thoughts themselves condense. Ironically, this attitude is as condescending as that of the Kattar Konkniwadi, who prescribes what is "acceptable" Konkani and then goes about telling a large section of Goa that they "don't know" Konkani. Or that of the Marathiwadi, who says that Konkani is a dialect of Marathi, and hence deserves to cease to exist. I think, as someone put it aptly, Goa is a multilingual society, with many transitions taking place at the same time. Some are learning English (even if not of the best variant, and surely they will do well one day). Others are learning Konkani, Marathi, French or Portuguese. These trends are an asset, not something to be laughed at in my view. > I am not here to make fun of Goan accents. I want this to be a very serious > discussion > on how the Government should make an investment to improve the standard of > English in Goa because quite frankly it is abysmal and you being an apologist > for > mediocrity will not help. This betrays a lack of understanding of politics and 21st century realities in today's Goa. The Congress is prone to blackmail, when it attempts to reverse a dubious 1990 coalition-politics, MGP-ideology driven PDF law that virtually bans English-language education in primary schools among the aam janta (not if you have the money). Sitting in the UK, it is very easy to prescribe what the Goa government "should" and "must" do. The question is simply this -- what can *we* do, what are we doing? > And incidentally I learnt my Queen's English from outstanding Goan teachers > all > of whom had passed out from Bombay's stellar colleges and then made their way > to Dubai. I am in no way questioning a Goan's ability to learn English only > that > declining standards in Goa need
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English? (Surely not Selma!)
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Frederick FN Noronha wrote: Mervyn, Interesting. So do you think that a lot of Goans answering the TOEFL might be creating the Kurzon Dilemma, by claiming that Konkani is their mother-tongue (and by implication, primary spoken language)? --- FN, As you can imagine, there is a Catch 22 or irony when one is taking a "Test of English as Foreign Language" and marks of English as his/her native tongue. I think my invigilator suggested I claim English as my native tongue because she did not want to go thru the hassle (again) of confirming the results or raising eyebrows as to how well the test was conducted in Tanzania. On a different note, I believe all Goans in Tanzania speak English more fluently than Konkani. In fact, those born in Tanzania after independence speak Kiswahili as well as they speak English. The only time you will hear a young person speak Konkani is when s/he is trying to communicate with the grand-parents. Mervyn --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English? (Surely not
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Mervyn Lobo writes: The?invigilator, a fellow Goan of Tanzania, told me to make sure I ticked the box saying English is my native language. I was surprised at the time.? The invigilator, who will be reading this, requested me to do so as she knew what the results would be. I scored either 98% or 99% on that test. Comment: I had to take the TOEFL as well , when I applied for Graduate School many many years ago. At the time I found that my good knowledge of Portuguese and associated Romance languages gave me a leg up. The test was a piece of cake. The results were comparable to Mervyn's. I do not believe Konkani as a language had anything to do with it, other than the fact that in Goa most Konkani speakers grow up to be polyglots. As far as the ongoing discussion (Foo will teach our children?) it is well known that the English language is a "live " language , is evolving, and is full of words and idioms absorbed from other languages. A recent piece in Time magazine pointed out that there will be in a few years more speakers of Hinglish and Chinglish than "English". Even if we stipulate that the teaching of English in Goa is not up to levels desired by Selma, it must be agreed that the knowledge of Hinglish is sufficient for access to the world wide web and for engaging in general discussions with other English speakers. And given the polyglot advantage, Goan kids will continue to ace all language tests, if needed. Of course you can still expect some to complain: "Why are they saying all those bad things in front of my back?" E. --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Frederick, In response to a few points made by you: a) Of course language like all living organisms is subject to the laws of evolution. Hence it mutates, expands and evolves depending on the region it is spoken in. The Gulf Arab speaks an Arabic different from the Middle Eastern Arab. Related languages from instance are different strands of a Mother languages which gave birth to similar yet different siblings. But this happens over a period of time; it is seamless and it happens within the ambit of the laws of grammar allowed by language. Hence it is an enriching process, not a process of degradation. American English is a language, Pidgin English on the other hand is not. Please do not confuse the issue of a evolving language with that of a language spoken badly. This is a spurious and misleading argument. b) Those who speak English as a second language, which is what a vast majority of Indians do, can speak it as proficiently or deficiently as they wish. They are using English to be merely functional. The large number of Tamilians who migrate to the US and UK as IT professionals speak very poor English but it doesn't matter because they are brilliant in IT and outside the confines of their plush offices, they will not be heard speaking English. They have their own rich language in which to further literature, math, science and philosophy. My concern is with Catholic Goans who for various historical reasons - mainly Portuguese colonisation which brought them in contact with a Western language and English is just a carry-on from that - have chosen to make English their first language. They use it in school, at home and in social discourse. Which means they do not have another language with which to cultivate thoughts on art, politics, literature, philosophy and science - everything that advances the cause of human societies. And if you don't have the machinery to cultivate thoughts, your thoughts themselves condense. I think recent discussions on language have shown me that you don't really appreciate the concept of "language." How it is learnt, how it is shaped and how it, in turns shapes society. At the heart of all human development lies language. I am not here to make fun of Goan accents. I want this to be a very serious discussion on how the Government should make an investment to improve the standard of English in Goa because quite frankly it is abysmal and you being an apologist for mediocrity will not help. And incidentally I learnt my Queen's English from outstanding Goan teachers all of whom had passed out from Bombay's stellar colleges and then made their way to Dubai. I am in no way questioning a Goan's ability to learn English only that declining standards in Goa need to be addressed. Best, Selma --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English? (Surely not Selma!)
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- On 20 November 2011 03:46, Mervyn Lobo wrote: > > > Those living in the USA understand this. In a few years, those > living in India and China will be challenging the English with > new words, expressions and forms of writing/speaking the > language. > > Mervyn > RESPONSE: You are right, like speaking pukka English!. -- DEV BOREM KORUM Gabe Menezes. --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English? (Surely not Selma!)
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- On 20 November 2011 09:16, Mervyn Lobo wrote: > The invigilator, a fellow Goan of Tanzania, told me to make sure I ticked > the box saying English is my native language. I was surprised at the time. > The invigilator, who will be reading this, requested me to do so as she > knew what the results would be. I scored either 98% or 99% on that test. > Mervyn, Interesting. So do you think that a lot of Goans answering the TOEFL might be creating the Kurzon Dilemma, by claiming that Konkani is their mother-tongue (and by implication, primary spoken language)? FN --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- Local accents or colloquialisms invariably get into spoken and written English. Indian English suffers from it as much as English spoken and written in many other countries. I had pointed out earlier on this forum that English in Goa's local papers is poor, but not comparatively bad to English written in many newspapers published in other states of India. Selma is perhaps keeping a track of the newspaper in question to make a bold statement, "In recent months the standard of Goa's leading English daily has fallen so drastically, I am hard-pressed to find a single sentence which isn't grammatically incorrect or a transliteration." She is obviously referring to OHeraldo. When I scan the newspaper I normally look for major grammatical errors or often arguments that appear incoherent to me in the opinion columns and in the editorial. I often find glaring mistakes in sentence construction. It is important that editorial copy should be gone through with a fine-tooth comb by at least two other editors after the writer polishes it with at least two drafts. Sometimes, the edited copy may come out worse than the original. That's a big risk that needs to be taken. We all are not infallible when it comes to writing in English. If someone out there says he or she is perfect I would wager a bet. Nowadays we have online grammar checkers, but they are not perfect. Line-by-line editing is a must when at least editing opinion pieces and editorials. Reports are often written in a hurry so as to catch deadlines and the pressure can result in turning out a bad copy. That's the reason there are copy-editor or sub-editors as they are called in India to make sure that the copy is readable and contains no anomalies or inaccuracies relating to the subject. The copy is also tested against the newspaper's guidelines, if the newspaper has guidelines in place. We all make mistakes, often inadvertently, in our writing. Even the best of writers make grammatical errors. It was noted that the late Dom Moraes often lapsed into bad writing. One senior editor at the now-defunct The Illustrated Weekly of India said that they were afraid to make corrections to Dom's copy as Dom had a reputation of being one among the finest writes of English in the world. The late William Safire used to write a column in the New York Times Magazine called On Laguage, which was also syndicated worldwide and India's The Hindu used to carry it. The columns were published in at least three books which I had. He found errors of all kinds in the written and spoken English of some of the politicians, journalists and authors, mostly Americans. I have read Rajan Narayan's book, a collection of his Stray Thoughts, and I have marked sentences which I felt were wrong. Similarly, I have gone through Fred's Another India and did the same. However, Fred's pieces are his reportage in his formative years in journalism. Rajan's book says that it is edited by Tara Narayan, Rajan's wife. I wished it a job better done. Fred's pieces are slapped as they probably appeared in print, and the column width is narrow. This reminds me of Tony Martin, who is probably still on this forum but has chosen to remind in the background, who once criticized a goanetter for using wrong English. When I pointed out to him that his book, Naked Goa, had grammatical lerrors, he replied saying that his manuscript was edited by a senior editor at Gomantak Times. Mind you, Tony has written a book of grammar for school kids. I have gone through it and found that much of the stuff came from Wren and Martin, the bible for teaching English in Indian schools. Coming to Selma's sweeping remark, I would like to know how she came to the conclusion that "Goan Catholics, especially from Salcete, are the most impoverished speakers of the English language." Does that mean that Goan Catholics from Bardez, Ilhas or other talukas are speakers and writers of good English? Is it a case of inflection on the part of English speakers in Salcette? Isn't Salcette Konkani said to be very "different" from Bardezi Konkani by Konkani-speakers from Bardez and Ilhas? It is a question of dialectical linguistics. English spoken in the north of India is far different from English spoken in the south, just as Hindi spoken in central India is far different from Hindi spoken in western India. Unless Selma is aware of certain cases where the "ladies" have become teac
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- For a moment Selma-baai, I thought you had taken up to posting in swhi-li or some exotic tongue! One just looses it to read 'above mentioned' on the front page of the he Katlick death-announcements rag. I'll leave Inspector Eugene (Happy birthday BTW- I knocked two rounds of Bognollo well water with my eyes closed. Viva-re.) to dissect some of their errors: you have the patience to read, reply and take the comments from the GNet loose canons on your chin. Good for you for being civil, seriously. But the standard of Ingleesh in Goa...never mind, what standard. I sat behind two dolled-up old bats on the Ponji-Margao shuttle a few hours ago. Pure verbal multi-*rgasmic sound bites, grammatically speaking. If you only heard the 'shall we call them cream of Goan society' (they were dressed like that only noo, two helpings of 'pa-o' and all) discuss their neighbours, price of fish, the smelly gaatis..and the padre's bad breadth. Phew. Now, I am confused as ever on rules of gramma, the past tense. There is no future tense in lowly baazar gossip ya. The book-list has a discussion on an idea for a reading room to inculcate the reading habit (I am guessing in Ponji). Wot? You want the future taxi-drivers, goondas, scoundrels, matk*-dealers and assorted arrogant low-life to read (in Ingleesh)? For what? You'd do Goichi society a favor by holding workshops on 'bulling for fun' or better still, 'how to win at matk*'. Someone tell me (do spare the tiresome formula answers) will the reading room benefit all? Or they can just rot in the ideally of Cancona. What would it cost a kid from Sanguem to get to Panjim to read? Or is it for the arrogant, over-fed Ponji-Porvorim-Dona Pola kids, the future of the book-buying business. This idea, like the Bee-shops house land dealings is smelly!! What happened to the central library..nice reading room, badly kept books.I know there are some who use it for research and good for you. One goes in there thinking some pale ghost may slip out of the stacked 100- year old newspapers. Ask the counter for any book and you get 'why the hell do you want to read a buk' re, expression. Really. I once went there to read a book from the 'special' reference section. Some bawli (staff) sat across and stared me the whole time. Was it my peroxide'ed hair? Hmmm I wonder. Getting back to printed Ingleesh, one wishes there were a few readable books that came out of the Goa publishing circus...I have not read yours Selma; tried to snatch one from an unsuspecting old man on a bus once, but he woke up just then. Seriously, there is a huge gap between lit and the printed word in Goa no? Whose to tell. This is a fools paradise-state in a free fall. Ah, do mind the gap! On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Carvalho wrote: > --- > Goanet Classifieds > --- > > Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects > > and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa > > Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 > > Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training > > --- > > > > In recent months the standard of Goa's leading English daily has fallen so > drastically, I am hard-pressed to find a single sentence which isn't > grammatically incorrect or a transliteration. The staff of this newspaper -as > shown in a recent photograph - are predominantly Goan Catholics, as is their > readership. Goan Catholics, especially from Salcete, are the most > impoverished speakers of the English language. If you come from a village in > Salcete, you are likely to have a terribly deficient vocabulary and grasp of > grammar. In fact, the spoken English is not English at all but a > transliteration of Konkani into some words stitched together in English. > > The reasons for this are many; the most pertinent one being they insist on > speaking English at home, an affectation which they quaintly refer to as > "speaking English in the house," quickly followed by another affectation, > that of being unable to speak in Konkani -except of course to their Bihari > maids. Sadly they learn English from their aging gra
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- On 19 November 2011 09:31, Carvalho wrote: > --- > > > > > In recent months the standard of Goa's leading English daily has fallen so > drastically, I am hard-pressed to find a single sentence which isn't > grammatically incorrect or a transliteration. COMMENT: I may or may not stand corrected here - should it not read correctly, as I am hard pressed to find a single sentence which is grammatically correct ? -- DEV BOREM KORUM Gabe Menezes. --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
---
Goanet Classifieds
---
Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects
and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa
Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011
Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training
---
Indeed yes. Foo will titch our children English?
My maternal aunt's household in Quitula, Aldona suddenly switched to
speaking English at home. What a stunning surprise it was when we, as knee
high grass-hoppers, devoid of any English vocabulary were we forced to
listen to, what we later considered as the cold-blooded murder of the
spoken English language by the double. "Me no want" "Where going?" "You take
cow walk?" "Don't beat cow ... mind buznes" " sugar inside tea you want?" Oh
my, it was endless. And to think of it we did get a huge inferiority complex
then.
We found the reason for this sudden switch. The eldest of the siblings who
was in the Gulf had landed in Canada. So the entire family was imminently
migrating to Canada. Naturally, the language spoken in Canada was English.
Thank God, our cousin had not landed in Quebec instead of in Toronto.
Otherwise we would be hearing 'maijouv' French instead. :-))
Luckily, our teachers at St. Xavier's High School, MOira were excellent in
the spoken English Language. Celine D'Sa, Mrs. D'Cruz ( our 'maijouv' french
teacher), Aida D'Souza, Mrs. Braganza ( mother of Miguel Braganza). Our
grammar background was excellent but when I landed in Xavier's College,
Bastora, I had to practice a sentence in my mind before speaking out. While
my spoken English was practically zero, I could write essays that were
stunning. I still find it difficult to keep entirely to English whilst
speaking.
Therefore, the MOI as English is going to be a failure if the teaching staff
is not shieved out through a fine mesh. And this is not going to happen.
Hence our decision (Goa Su-Raj) to stick to KONKANI in the Primary Section
with a Master subject ENGLISH which will be delivered in perfection without
the usual mix baaji by staff who could be comparative or even better than
the 'English' themselves.
I consider myself a good 'builder' because I have always believed in good,
solid FOUNDATIONS.
Cheers
floriano
goasuraj.
- Original Message -
From: "Carvalho"
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 3:01 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English?
It is all very well to introduce English as a medium of instruction but
until the government legitimately recognizes English as a language of Goa
and makes the much needed investment in this language, in terms of getting
skilled teachers and upgrading the actual mode of imparting the language, we
are stranded. Merely swapping English textbooks for Konkani ones is not the
solution. If we continue speaking and writing English the way we do, we are
practically speaking, an illiterate society. So the question is, foo will
titch our
chillren English?
---
Protect Goa's natural beauty
Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve
Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php
---
Re: [Goanet] Foo will titch our chillren English? (Surely not Selma!)
--- Goanet Classifieds --- Enescil, a Brazilian engineering firm requires Engineers, Architects and Draftsmen, proficient in AutoCAD, for their new office in Goa Those interested can email enescil@gmail.com by 15 November 2011 Selected candidates will be sent to Brazil for 2 months training --- One cannot but disagree with Selma on her perspective below. The cut-and-paste quilt of various facts and info-tidbits, while not incorrect in the details, presents a wholly misleading picture of the situation as it is. Even before Selma posted this, I happened to come across this Guardian story of how the disempowered in India see English as a road to upwardly mobility. It would be a big mistake, in my view, to dump the baby with the bathwater. Or to be obsessed about "low standards". See India's outcasts put faith in English Dalits are building a temple in honour of a language they believe can liberate them from the oppressions of the caste system http://bit.ly/ttjjMS While Selma could get access to the Queen's English (whether in the Gulf or the UK), most of us will have to make do with the Hinglish or Konklish version of it. And why not? It has served us well, it allows us to communicate, and it enables us to earn a livelihood. In any case, India is going to become the country with the largest English speaking population in the world. Currently we are at #2, after the US, but ahead of the Philippines. I think these figures could be underestimates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population So, while we might speak it badly, we'll simply have the chance of calling it Indian English, or Goan English (if you have Singlish in Singapore, why not!). As Jose Colaco has argued elsewhere, I too agree that the Goan women are better than us guys in speaking English. Or maybe writing it too. (They're generally better in all the language departments.) Maybe it is a problem when some try to affect 'foreign' accents, instead of just going 'natural' and speaking as they do, in intelligible English. On the weekend, we had a talk in Goa by the ex-Principal of Sophia College, Sr Mary Braganza. Institutions like this and St Xavier's (in Bombay) have shaped a generation and more of Goan women and men leaders of society. Perhaps the fact that we have so few institutions of excellence here, and that those who get their education here, spend the best part of their lives overseas, also adds to the problem. Added to this, we get told off by the Selmas for our poor standards, which is like pouring salt (or vinegar) into one's wounds! We should not see the glass as half-empty, but rather as half-full. There would be many who have done well for themseves in Goa, and from Goa, in the world of English. Just that we have maybe not spent time to list them: QUOTE Spoken Indian English is often the butt of jokes by "educated" British, American and Indian English-speakers alike as is evidenced by such characters as Peter Sellers' Indian party-goer in the movie The Party and the Simpsons' convenience-store owner Apu Nahasapeemapetilon; there is also no dearth of jokes among Indians 'riffing' the pronunciation and idiomatic inconsistencies of Indian English (see External Links at bottom). However, in spite of banter regarding colloquial English, India has a consistent and long record of pre- and post-Independence thinkers and writers whose writings and speeches are attestations to many Indians' absolute mastery of the language. Among others, Swami Vivekananda, Rabindranath Tagore, C Rajagopalachari,Shri Aurobindo Ghosh, Jawaharlal Nehru, the world-famous novelist R K Narayan, and Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan come to mind as prominent figures whose English, often though not always written, was of the highest quality in any country. Many more contemporary Indians, such as Vikram Seth and Salman Rushdie, are acknowledged masters of English literary style. Indian English writers and English writers of Indian origin – notably Booker Prize winners Salman Rushdie and Arundhati Roy – have in addition made creative use of more stereotypical Indian English through the mouths of characters in their works. http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Indian_English ENDQUOTE I do agree with the problems we've long faced with English-language publications (and even books) in Goa. We've been suffering this (or, should I say, the readers have been suffering it) since the 1980s, as far as I know. Veteran journalists like Lambert Mascarenhas recently said it was a bigger disaster in the 1960s, when Portuguese typesetters wer
