Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-04-06 Thread J. Colaco < jc>
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[1] JC wrote: With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha
project, please advise me where I have claimed that I was " one of
those who ORIGINALLY thought of of the project and was ASSOCIATED with
some members of the Toronto group,"

AND added that " There is a striking difference between discussing a
project for SOME TIME and being one of those who ORIGINALLY thought of
the project.


[2] Sebastian Borges  wrote: My dear Doutor,   I
do realise now that there is a gulf of a difference berween "ORIGINAL
ASSOCIATION with" and "INITIAL PLANNING of' a project. Muitissimo
obrigado.

==

RESPONSE:

Dear Prof Borges,

It is possible that some time during your formation process(perhaps,
in the seminary), you came across and later  taught / preached the
following: Thou Shalt Not bear False Witness.

However, just from me a  Romi for Romi Konkani chap, please accept
this Thank You for doing what an unscrupulous politician would do best
i.e. cleverly juxta-position and realign words in order to twist the
meaning of the original sentence altogether. Perhaps, that is the
advantage that Devanagri has over Romi.

de nada !

jc
You may have the final word ONLY if you do NOT bear False and Crooked
witness again.


Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-04-01 Thread Sebastian Borges
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On 31 Mar 2010  "J. Colaco  < jc>"  quoted me:

[1] JC wrote: With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha
project, please advise me where I have claimed that I was " one of
those who ORIGINALLY thought of of the project and was ASSOCIATED with
some members of the Toronto group,"
[2] SB asks: Will this quote from his post do?: 'Michael and I have
been talking about this project for SOME TIME. The INITIAL PLAN was to
get it videotaped in Goa ...but it was kind of difficult to organise.
So, it appears that the "Canadian" production
will go.
[3] SB asks further: 'Did I misunderstand? Or, does he mean that he
should be quoted VERBATIM every time?'

And wrote:

YESyou, Sebastian Borges (probably) misunderstood and (definitely)
misrepresented my words.

There is a striking difference between discussing a project for SOME
TIME and being one of those who ORIGINALLY thought of the project.

My response:
My dear Doutor,  Thanks for the tutorial.  I do realise now that there is a 
gulf of a difference berween "ORIGINAL ASSOCIATION with" and "INITIAL PLANNING 
of' a project.

Muitissimo obrigado.
Sebastian Borges



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Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-31 Thread J. Colaco < jc>
---
Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment
 and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further
 environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa

  http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php
---

[1] JC wrote: With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha
project, please advise me where I have claimed that I was " one of
those who ORIGINALLY thought of of the project and was ASSOCIATED with
some members of the Toronto group,"
[2] SB asks: Will this quote from his post do?: 'Michael and I have
been talking about this project for SOME TIME. The initial plan was to
get it videotaped in Goa ...but it was kind of difficult to organise.
So, it appears that the "Canadian" production
will go.
[3] SB asks further: 'Did I misunderstand? Or, does he mean that he
should be quoted VERBATIM every time?'


ANSWER:

YESyou, Sebastian Borges (probably) misunderstood and (definitely)
misrepresented my words.

There is a striking difference between discussing a project for SOME
TIME and being one of those who ORIGINALLY thought of the project.

It might be that you have a problem with comprehending the English
language (possibly) because it is written in the Romi script. Perhaps,
I should write it in the Devanagri script for you.

Now we know (I hope) that:

a: the Chinese brought Chinese cuisine to India, where it was modified
by the addition of some Indian spices,
b: the Portuguese brought the chorico or salsicha (sausage) to Goa
where it was modified by the addition of spices,
c: the Portuguese brought the ladainha to Goa, where it was sung
(also) in Konkani

I cannot be more clear than this about this topic. I'd say this in conclusion:

d: If you can help this project - financially, please help.
e: If you can help this project by not nit-picking at irrelevant side
issues, please help by zipping up.
f: I find it pointless discussing anything with a person who is
challenged in the English language and who engages in arguing on the
basis of his (own) misrepresentation of the facts.
g: Accordingly, please have the last word on this exchange, and have a good day.

jc


Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-31 Thread Sebastian Borges
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JC says:
IF you have verifiable proof that some (expected) home-grown
ingredients entered into the Ladainha which was brought by the
Portuguese into Goa, please provide that proof. No 'invented' proof
just the facts, Sir!

Let me reiterate what I have already said earlier.  Even when every ingredient 
of a dish is brought from the market, we cannot say that the dish itself has 
been procured from the market; this holds true even when not even one small 
item has been added from the kitchen garden.

Having said that, let me cite some differences between the 'ladainha' SUNG in 
Goa and the PRINTED prayers in Latin and Portuguese.  "Kyrie eleison" occurs 
twice in the printed litany but is sung only once.  In the Salve Rainha that we 
sing, we find the words " e depois deste desterro NOSSA mostrai"  (Is 
this how it is in the Portuguese prayer?  To my mind, it is not even 
grammatically proper Portuguese.)  Towards the end of the same, we sing " 
sejamos dignos das promessas DAS PROMESSAS de Cristo DA PROMESSA DE CRISTO Amen 
JESUS." (The capitalized words are extra.)  The orasanvam (hymns) to saints, 
Our Lady etc. in Konkani certainly could not have been imported from Portugal.

I am not sure whether the above will meet JC's requirements.  But this is all I 
can do.

Sebastian Borges




  


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Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-30 Thread Sebastian Borges
---
Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment
 and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further
 environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa

  http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php
---

JC asks:
With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha project,
please advise me where I have claimed that I was " one of those who
originally thought of of the project and was associated with some
members of the Toronto group,"

Will this quote from his post do?

Michael and I have been talking about this project for some time. The
initial plan was to get it videotaped in Goa ...but it was kind of
difficult to organise. So, it appears that the "Canadian" production
will go.

Did I misunderstand? Or, does he mean that he should be quoted VERBATIM every 
time?

Sebastian Borges



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Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-30 Thread J. Colaco < jc>
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 Sebastian Borges  wrote:

[1] My straight question to JC:  Do you still contest my surmise that
the entire format of 'ladainha' (elaborated above) as sung in Goa was
not brought by the Portuguese but was put together in Goa itself?


[2] Now that JC has claimed that he too was one of those who
originally thought of of the project and was associated with some
members of the Toronto group,


Dear Prof Borges,

wrt # 1: Now that you have brought in the phrase "entire format" into
the sentence, my answer to that question is: I do not know.

Whenever something is brought from somewhere and transplanted
somewhere else, some 'local' flavouring does (is expected to) take
place. e.g. food. A classical example is the Mughlai and (Indian)
Chinese cooking.

It would be a fallacy for me to pronounce on Day 1 that "It is a
fallacy to state that 'Chinese cooking' was brought to India by the
Chinese" .and then argue with the additional phrase "entire
format" of Chinese cooking!

IF you have verifiable proof that some (expected) home-grown
ingredients entered into the Ladainha which was brought by the
Portuguese into Goa, please provide that proof. No 'invented' proof
just the facts, Sir!


wrt # 2: Please refrain from misrepresenting sentences written in
simple English. You are free to make your ghuspott in Konkani esp
Devanagri Konkani. But please do NOT reinvent my statements.

With specific reference to the Konkani Rosary / Ladainha project,
please advise me where I have claimed that I was " one of those who
originally thought of of the project and was associated with some
members of the Toronto group,"

Once again: You may re-invent your own words to try win arguments, but
please - do not re-invent my words and in doing so, misrepresent what
I have stated.

Por favor, não esqueça.

jc


Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-29 Thread Sebastian Borges
---
Sign the Petition requesting The Honble Minister of State for Environment
 and Forests (I/C) to maintain the moratorium on issuing further
 environmental clearances for mining activities in Goa

  http://goanvoice.org.uk/miningpetition.php
---

It was precisely to avoid such time-wasting, puerile and pediatric diatribe 
that I had defined the terms.  Assuming that JC had honestly misunderstood my 
expression "Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics" and anticipating 
that, as is his wont, he would twist and turn my statements, I had only 
clarified what I meant by the following paras in my original post:
"The Goan Hindus have a rite called Satyanarayana Puja which is performed for 
almost all the reasons that the Catholics celebrate the Ladainha.  In this puja 
too the prayers are sung.  Therefore, as a substitute, we have a conglomeration 
of the Litany of Our Lady in Latin, Salve Rainha and Virgem Mae de Deus in 
Portuguese all set to music.  (Are the different music scores for these 
prevalent anywhere else? I doubt it.)  This is followed by the singing the 
hymns or 'orasanvam' in honour of the saints of the family (whose images are 
present in the oratory). I would be happy to learn of any parallels 
elsewhere."  
Have the definitions modified my original statement?  

My straight question to JC:  Do you still contest my surmise that the entire 
format of 'ladainha' (elaborated above) as sung in Goa was not brought by the 
Portuguese but was put together in Goa itself?

I have not requested him to fetch any U-tubes from the 15th century; just 
INFORM us that this format was prevalent in Portugal a couple of centuries ago 
so as to be available for export to Goa.  If possible, he could also inform us 
whether it was exported to some other colony as well.

Now that JC has claimed that he too was one of those who originally thought of 
of the project and was associated with some members of the Toronto group, I 
would be happy if someone directly connected with the Toronto recording would 
tell us whether they would restrict themselves to the recording of only the 
litany beginning with "Kyrie eleison" and ending with "Agnus Dei" or would 
they also include the SINGING of Salve Rainha and Virgem Mae de Deus" as well.  
This will go a long way to clarify WHAT THEY MEAN by 'ladainha'.

Another suggestion / request to the Toronto group:
In years gone by, during the month of May, almost every ward in Goa used to 
celebrate the feast of the Holy Cross where the Latin litany was sung, but with 
some differences:  (1) the musical accompaniment also included the drums, (2) 
the Salve Rainha was replaced with 'Regina Coeli laetare' (upto the feast of 
Ascension of Our Lord),  (3) the whole rite ended with the singing of 
"Exultemos com alegria" to the accompaniment of drums.  Nowadays these feasts 
have become very rare.  Could these, if possible, be also recorded for 
posterity, especially when this rite has become almost extinct?

When I visited my original post, I was shocked at the very first sentence 
therein.  I am glad that JC did not pounce on that; he could have really made 
mincemeat of me.  When that sentence is read with the rest of the para, the 
reader would understand that I was referring to 'ters' as "a purely Goan rite" 
which it is not.  I was referring to the 'ladainha'; but, from the next 
sentence on, I digressed into the situation in Mumbai wrt the 'ters'.  My 
profound apologies to any reader who might have got this impression. 

Sebastian Borges

PS:  I do not know whether Girgolina Sattam were prepared at Sokoilo Vaddo but 
they were certainly sold at Shimoniposaro next door.  No re baba JC?  Lembra 
nao?(;-)    

Sebastian Borges

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010  "J. Colaco  < jc>"  wrote:

re 1: please review the original sentence: Did it say "entire" ladainha
"format? Did the Borges post say that? Why modify the statement which was
challenged without acknowledging the chip on one's shoulder?

re 3: so the ladainha sung by Goans ...was home grown? really? The next
thing I will hear is that the Gregorian chant was also home grown in
'Sokoilo Vaddo' in Velim!

What prejudicial nonsense is this?

jc
ps: I am trying to locate Youtube recordings made before 1498 - to satisfy
the Borges question infra. I have been told that some antique recordings
exist. But what is the use if cybercafe's do not allow access to such media?
(;-)


Sebastian Borges  wrote:

1:  I would request JC to inform us whether the entire 'ladainha' format, as
SUNG in Goa existed in Portugal or elsewhere at least a couple of centuries
ago.

2: If yes, then we can be certain that it was brought to Goa by the
Portuguese.

3: Else, I shall have to stick to my original  statement, "it would be a
fallacy to say that Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics w

Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-29 Thread J. Colaco < jc>
re 1: please review the original sentence: Did it say "entire" ladainha
"format? Did the Borges post say that? Why modify the statement which was
challenged without acknowledging the chip on one's shoulder?

re 3: so the ladainha sung by Goans ...was home grown? really? The next
thing I will hear is that the Gregorian chant was also home grown in
'Sokoilo Vaddo' in Velim!

What prejudicial nonsense is this?

jc
ps: I am trying to locate Youtube recordings made before 1498 - to satisfy
the Borges question infra. I have been told that some antique recordings
exist. But what is the use if cybercafe's do not allow access to such media?
(;-)


 Sebastian Borges  wrote:

1:  I would request JC to inform us whether the entire 'ladainha' format, as
SUNG in Goa existed in Portugal or elsewhere at least a couple of centuries
ago.

2: If yes, then we can be certain that it was brought to Goa by the
Portuguese.

3: Else, I shall have to stick to my original  statement, "it would be a
fallacy to say that Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics was brought
by the Portuguese


Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-29 Thread augusto pinto
I haven't been following this thread too carefully but when I read the last
post I thought of Alfred Rose's song  about the 'ladainha' in Konkani and
started to google. The following post of Eugene Correa is one of the entries
that cropped up and you can follow up if you feel like.

http://www.mail-archive.com/goa...@goanet.org/msg05342.html

-- 


Augusto Pinto
40, Novo Portugal,
Moira, Bardez,
Goa, India
E pinto...@gmail.com or ypinto...@yahoo.co.in
P 0832-2470336
M 9881126350


Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-28 Thread Sebastian Borges
It appears that JC has confused the meaning of my statement "Ladainha which is 
familiar to Goan Catholics" with that of the Portuguese word "ladainha" per 
se.  Therefore, in order to avoid further confusion, let me define some terms, 
FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS DISCUSSION.  This stipulation, I feel, is necessary to 
obviate these definitions being generalized, as is sought to be done by vested 
interests wrt the definition of the word 'Konkani' in the Official Language Act.
1. littany = the Litany of Our Lady which in Latin begins with "Kyrie eleison" 
and ends with "Agnus Dei.. miserere nobis"  
2. rosary = five decades of the Rosary interspersed with the five mysteries 
relevant for the day.
3. 'ters' = the whole prayer consisting of the Sotmanitam (Credo), the rosary, 
Xoronn-yetam and the litany (in Latin or Konkani) in that order and ending with 
"rozar".
4. 'ladainha' = the entire rite IN SONG beginning with the litany (in Latin), 
Salve Rainha (in Portuguese), Virgem Mae de Deus (in Portuguese), Hymns to 
Saints etc. (in Konkani / Portuguese / Latin) and ending with "rozar".  This is 
also the meaning, I believe, in which the word has been used thus far in this 
thread.

Some prayers are common to both ters and ladainha.  But there are important 
differences:
(a) The 'ters' is largely RECITED whereas the 'ladainha', except for the final 
"rozar", is SUNG.
(b) Credo or Sotmanitam, with which 'ters' begins, is not found anywhere in 
'ladainha'.
(c) 'Virgem Mae de Deus' and the Hymns are found in the 'ladainha' but not in 
'ters'.
(d) Xoronn-yetam is the Konkani translation of the Portuguese 'Salve Rainha'.  
But its position wrt the litany differs: in 'ters' it precedes litany whereas 
in 'ladainha', 'Salve Rainha' follows the litany.

All the prayers constituting the 'ladainha' were certainly available as 
separate entities, but my contention is that their arrangement in a unique 
FORMAT called 'ladainha' was done in Goa.  Just because all the constituent 
parts were available in - and brought from - Portugal, we cannot claim that the 
final product was also imported from there.  When all the ingredients of a dish 
are purchased from the market, do we do say that the dish itself was brought 
from the market?  
JC has sent some links.  I could open the first one which only gives the 
history of the litany and the explanation of some selected terms.  This in no 
way contradicts my statement.  Being in a cybercafe, I could not open the 
youtube links.  But do they contain the entire 'ladainha' format as sung in 
Goa?  To simplify the matter, I would request JC to inform us whether the 
entire 'ladainha' format, as SUNG in Goa existed in Portugal or elsewhere at 
least a couple of centuries ago.  If yes, then we can be certain that it was 
brought to Goa by the Portuguese.  Else, I shall have to stick to my original 
statement, "it would be a fallacy 
to say that Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics was brought
by the Portuguese.  They could not have brought it because it was not
available anywhere; it is entirely home-cooked using ingredients that
were at hand!"

Sincerely,
Sebastian Borges


On Sun, 28 Mar 2010  "J. Colaco  < jc>"  wrote:


That brings me to this point which I read a couple of minutes ago:

Sebastian Borges  wrote: "it would be a fallacy
to say that Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics was brought
by the Portuguese.  They could not have brought it because it was not
available anywhere; it is entirely home-cooked using ingredients that
were at hand!"

Trust the following might be useful. It is posted without comment or
verification.

Sincerely

jc
Amanha = Time to refocus on other matters. Enough of zuzz on GN for March
.

The Origin of the Ladainha (Origem das ladainhas)
http://www.npdbrasil.com.br/religiao/rel_meditar_012.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtp7oldyDpU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM4VwjTOp5E&feature=related

Sebastian Borges


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Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-28 Thread Frederick Noronha
On 28 March 2010 20:29, J. Colaco  < jc>  wrote:

> For those who may wish to know, Michael (aka
> Mingloo) was my mentor in
> the field of debating

Oh my god, how did he do such a bad job then? :-) FN


Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-28 Thread J. Colaco < jc>
I am truly delighted to know that my very good friend and debating
opponent (during college days in Goa) Michael Pinto has embarked on
this project from the very cold climes of Winnipeg, Canada.

For those who may wish to know, Michael (aka Mingloo) was my mentor in
the field of debating. Those days, the debating field had some very
strong contenders including Michael Pinto, Pandurang Ginde, Yadunath
Joshi and Santosh Lad. And then there were the impostors e.g. Wilfred
Mesquita and Jawaharlal Henriques. No prizes for guessing that Michael
and yours truly, wiped out the opposition. The impostors, as we had
predicted, joined (successfully or otherwise) the field of politics.

BTW: If anyone has any contact with Pandurang Ginde, would you please
advise? It would be nice for Michael and me to renew contact.

Michael and I have been talking about this project for some time. The
initial plan was to get it videotaped in Goa ...but it was kind of
difficult to organise. So, it appears that the "Canadian" production
will go.

At least, there will be none of this divisive nonsense of What is
Konkani, Devanagri/Antruzi/Romi etc etc. It is best to leave that
nonsense to the weirdos.

That brings me to this point which I read a couple of minutes ago:

Sebastian Borges  wrote: "it would be a fallacy
to say that Ladainha which is familiar to Goan Catholics was brought
by the Portuguese.  They could not have brought it because it was not
available anywhere; it is entirely home-cooked using ingredients that
were at hand!"

Trust the following might be useful. It is posted without comment or
verification.

Sincerely

jc
Amanha = Time to refocus on other matters. Enough of zuzz on GN for March
.

The Origin of the Ladainha (Origem das ladainhas)
http://www.npdbrasil.com.br/religiao/rel_meditar_012.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtp7oldyDpU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM4VwjTOp5E&feature=related


Re: [Goanet] Fw: Rosary in Konkani and Ladainha - Toronto

2010-03-27 Thread Bento Rodrigues


 Dear Sir

I am Bento F. Rodrigues. Working in K.S.A.

I was suprise to see you mail ,about Ladainha.If you have the text.Please can 
you mail it.

Both in konkani and latin.thank very much.and god bless you

 

From 

Bento F.Rodrigues

 
  
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