Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Tue, 10/14/08, Gabe Menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > RESPONSE: Come off it man! No one who has commented on this > forum, has stated that there is a wide spread Hindu put down of the > Christian community or for that a Muslim one. You are insinuating > what has not been stated on this forum, either simply or categorically > The facts indicate otherwise. Here is what you stated in support of such a belief on your part: "Can you just imagine the carnage that would have befallen on the Christian community all over India? This Hindu mindset scares the shit out of me." Gabe Menezes "I would put it to you that so far, I have seen only valid points being put out by the oppressed community" Gabe Menezes > >On the other hand it is blatantly clear that you wish to pour emollient >over >the the attacks by the Bajrang Dal and its variants... > The above is a blatant falsehood. I have stated that incitement by Hindutva outfits is a cause of the riots. > >Before you realised that Murthy had affilations, you were ncock a hoop >about >another view! > It is indeed another view, albeit a biased one because of his affiliation. Unfortunately, we have not been able to get an unbiased non-partisan account of the situation in Orissa from people who have genuine knowledge about the events on the ground, about the role of various Hindutva groups and the local government, and about the history of disputes between the Kandha and Pana folk. As for the rest of the material below, you are simply trying hard to fabricate various baseless insinuations against me. Cheers, Santosh --- On Tue, 10/14/08, Gabe Menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >To put it curtly, there is simply no justification for the attacks on >>Christians, no excuse whatsoever, there is simply no other view - not >even >yours, that can be excused, to some how suggest that Christians have >brought >it upon themselves. That it is not really a Christian Vs Hindu >issue but a >tribal one - go tell it to the peasants, in Orissa who are > on the receiving end. >
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
2008/10/14 Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Gabe Menezes < s > > Please see the following link for context: > > I know that everybody is biased in one way or another but it is important to > know the whole truth about any situation. The assertion below that there is > simply no other point of view than yours is hardly an unbiased assertion. > > I do not believe that there is widespread oppression of religious minorities > in India by the Hindu majority. You appear to believe otherwise (Please see > the quote below). In reality, the communities that are genuinely oppressed > are underprivileged castes and tribes. Casteism and tribalism are indeed > among the root causes on the communal riots in Orissa, the other causes being > violent hate-filled extremism of the Hindutva outfits, Maoists and other > criminal elements in society. > > Now regarding valid points and excuses being put out in this forum, please > let me know which of the scores of propaganda pieces and news items you have > in mind. > > Cheers, > > Santosh RESPONSE: Come off it man! No one who has commented on this forum, has stated that there is a wide spread Hindu put down of the Christian community or for that a Muslim one. You are insinuating what has not been stated on this forum, either simply or categorically . On the other hand it is blatantly clear that you wish to pour emollient over the the attacks by the Bajrang Dal and its variants...i.e. there is another view. My contention and that of others regarding this, is that there is no other view, you may suggest that there is another view, as you have done...you are insulting our intelligence and your standing on this forum. Before you realised that Murthy had affilations, you were cock a hoop about another view! Yes, I agree we all have our biases; defending the oppressed and down trodden cannot be counted as one of them. To put it curtly, there is simply no justification for the attacks on Christians, no excuse whatsoever, there is simply no other view - not even yours, that can be excused, to some how suggest that Christians have brought it upon themselves. That it is not really a Christian Vs Hindu issue but a tribal one - go tell it to the peasants, in Orissa who are on the receiving end. I am totally taken aback by your inference that, in this instance there is another angle to be perceived. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London.
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Mon, 10/13/08, Gabe Menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > QUESTION: Are you calling my assertions as being partisan? > I have to go through all your posts on this issue to determine whether any of them are partisan. But here is an example of a partisan statement: "COMMENT: My commiserations to India and especially the Hindu community. I am relieved that no rumours were spread that this was a Christian undertaking - this is not a tongue in cheek, statement; everyone knows the mindset of the lower class, easily swayed Hindu. Can you just imagine the carnage that would have befallen on the Christian community all over India? This Hindu mindset scares the shit out of me." .Gabe Menezes Please see the following link for context: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-September/081394.html I know that everybody is biased in one way or another but it is important to know the whole truth about any situation. The assertion below that there is simply no other point of view than yours is hardly an unbiased assertion. I do not believe that there is widespread oppression of religious minorities in India by the Hindu majority. You appear to believe otherwise (Please see the quote below). In reality, the communities that are genuinely oppressed are underprivileged castes and tribes. Casteism and tribalism are indeed among the root causes on the communal riots in Orissa, the other causes being violent hate-filled extremism of the Hindutva outfits, Maoists and other criminal elements in society. Now regarding valid points and excuses being put out in this forum, please let me know which of the scores of propaganda pieces and news items you have in mind. Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Gabe Menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I resent that, your standing on this forum is being devalued, as you are > >looking through rose tinted glasses; albeit you see this forum as being > >dominated by Goan Christians; I would put it to you that so far, I have > >seen only valid points being put out by the oppressed community. It >shows, > it really does, when you are looking for that smidgen of excuse >for what is > going on. > > There are not ifs or buts, only facts and the end product, > what we see and read, is what is happening - no two views about it, no > justification for what is happening, there simply is no > other point of view that could be deemed 'another dimension' >
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Mon, 10/13/08, Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In my opinion, the only perspective that counts is that we > are seeing once again that anarchy lurks just below the > surface in certain segments of Indian society, ready to > erupt into wholesale violence at the slightest provocation, > whether real or imagined. > Even though the above is in response to a statement that I have retracted, it is a very reasonable and thoughtful perspective backed by historical evidence. The same cannot be said about the misdirected impulsive material below, which was also in response to my retracted statement. Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 10/13/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > And we will have posts applauding such 'broader > perspectives'. No matter there is no rationale or > evidence to support such views or that facts point out to > the contrary.For those who wish to believe what they wish > and those who wish to live in denial, they will continue to > do so. But all of us are not suckers to fall for such > stories!!! >
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
As I read Rina's post, THIS IS a clash between the two religious groups. Rina has not given us any other logical basis for the clash. I agree if Rina suggests that the two neighboring tribes / castes are clashing over diminishing resources - land, jobs, housing, govt largess. And using religion as a "spice" (excuse). This may be the underlying problem all over India, as suggested by the Catholic Church in India. Now why should these uneducated people not be allowed to use religion as a 'spicy explanation' to understand and explain their problems? After all do not the 'intellectuals' in India and on Goanet use religion to blame many of the ills of the past and the present? Are not chauvinists and partisans on this forum also called "Bigots"? Regards, GL -- Santosh Helekar The receiving end of communal violence are innocent people of all faiths, persuasions and perspectives. It is high time that all chauvinists and partisans in this forum recognize this fact. --- Gabe Menezes Yes, unfortunately, the receiving end just happen to be Christians and the dishing end happen to be Hindus. Rina Mukherji the Kandhamal arson is not, as it has been concocted, a clash between Hindu and Christian faithfuls at all.The truth is that it is a continuation of the clashes that had started in early 1990s between the 'Kandha' tribe, which did not convert to Christianity, and 'Pana' caste people, most of whom had converted. ... Religion is the spice added to this mix.
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
2008/10/13 Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Good to see another broader perspective on this problem >> being posted here. >> > > I am sorry, I just realized that S. Gurumurthy's perspective is also a > partisan and political perspective. His organization appears to be affiliated > with the RSS. In keeping with my skepticism towards any sort of propaganda > from partisans and political operatives, I retract my above assertion. > > Cheers, > > Santosh QUESTION: Are you calling my assertions as being partisan? I resent that, your standing on this forum is being devalued, as you are looking through rose tinted glasses; albeit you see this forum as being dominated by Goan Christians; I would put it to you that so far, I have seen only valid points being put out by the oppressed community. It shows, it really does, when you are looking for that smidgen of excuse for what is going on. There are not ifs or buts, only facts and the end product, what we see and read, is what is happening - no two views about it, no justification for what is happening, there simply is no other point of view that could be deemed 'another dimension' -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London.
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Mon, 10/13/08, Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Good to see another broader perspective on this problem > being posted here. > I am sorry, I just realized that S. Gurumurthy's perspective is also a partisan and political perspective. His organization appears to be affiliated with the RSS. In keeping with my skepticism towards any sort of propaganda from partisans and political operatives, I retract my above assertion. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
--- On Mon, 10/13/08, Gabe Menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > RESPONSE: Yes, unfortunately, the receiving end just happen > to be Christians and the dishing end happen to be Hindus. > The receiving end of communal violence are innocent people of all faiths, persuasions and perspectives. It is high time that all chauvinists and partisans in this forum recognize this fact. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
2008/10/13 Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Good to see another broader perspective on this problem being posted here. > > Cheers, > > Santosh RESPONSE: Yes, unfortunately, the receiving end just happen to be Christians and the dishing end happen to be Hindus. How about another slant another perspective on the happenings elsewhere in India? We need further justification for the dastardly deeds. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London.
Re: [Goanet] Kandhamal violence-is it communal?
Good to see another broader perspective on this problem being posted here. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sun, 10/12/08, Rina Mukherji <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Contrary to what Indians here and Christians elsewhere have > been told by > evangelical missionaries, media and seculars, the Kandhamal > arson is not, as > it has been concocted, a clash between Hindu and Christian > faithfuls at > all.The truth is that it is a continuation of the clashes > that had started > in early 1990s between the 'Kandha' tribe, which > did not convert to > Christianity, and 'Pana' caste people, most of whom > had converted. > > Religion is the spice added to this mix. >
