Re: [appengine-java] Re: Feelings about new pricing model

[Jeff Schnitzer]

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 10:15 PM, Tom Gibara  wrote:
>> Put it this way:  A single multithreaded Java
>> appserver instance should be able to happily consume every last CPU
>> cycle on a frontend box - and that's just the free tier.
>
> That presumes that the JVM that sandboxes the app is given access to all the
> CPU cycles. Nothing precludes mapping all Java threads onto a single native
> thread, for example.

I don't work for Google and I don't have any secret backroom knowledge
of how appengine works beyond what is commonly available.  The
impression I get from paying attention is:

 * GAE runs on linux (a custom version, probably standardized throughout Google)
 * GAE runs on a linux JVM (probably unhacked, or very lightly hacked)
 * GAE runs on a version of Jetty (probably heavily hacked)

I don't think appengine is so exotic that they've built their own JVM.
 Yes, they they hired Guido and probably have their own special
version of Python, but the JVM has deeper hooks that were designed
from the get-go for this kind of secure isolated application
processing.  If Google has JVM engineers of Guido's pedigree working
on appengine (ie, not part of the Android/Dalvik team), they have been
very secretive about it.

My guess is that the appengine JVM is a standard Sun JVM.

...and at any rate, it doesn't change point I was making.  Even if you
assume GAE uses an on ancient JVM with green threads, that only
ensures that a single free-tier instance can consume one core of a
box.  Still very expensive given that boxes are unlikely to have more
than 8 cores (16 if you consider hyperthreading).

Jeff

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Re: [appengine-java] Re: Feelings about new pricing model

[Tom Gibara]

> Put it this way:  A single multithreaded Java
> appserver instance should be able to happily consume every last CPU
> cycle on a frontend box - and that's just the free tier.

That presumes that the JVM that sandboxes the app is given access to all the
CPU cycles. Nothing precludes mapping all Java threads onto a single native
thread, for example.

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[appengine-java] Re: couple questions about consume REST services using jersey(works on prod however doesn't work on dev)

[Brandon Donnelson]

As to the inclusion of the libs in war/WEB-INF/lib, that is a yes. You may 
have to check jaxb dependencies to make sure all of them are whitelisted or 
the dependencies have to be included in the lib folder. 

Brandon Donnelson
http://gwt-examples.googlecode.com

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Re: [appengine-java] Java => Google app

[Jeff Schnitzer]

Ugh.

I don't have time for a religious war, so this will be my only post in
this thread.

1)  Don't become a fanatic about anything.  It's just software.

2)  Maven is a gigantic steaming pile of crap.  If you need to read
books to make your build system work, you have a defective process.

There's plenty of debate about this on the web.  Search for it.  I
comment here just because I don't want a noob to accept this mantra
blindly.

Jeff

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Rusty Wright  wrote:
> Become a fanatic and learn maven; in the long run it does make things
> easier.  Free maven books here: http://www.sonatype.com/Support/Books
>
> On 2011-05-21 03:08, programmer wrote:
>>
>> How do I make my java code or jar file an app? --
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>
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>
>

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[appengine-java] Re: couple questions about consume REST services using jersey(works on prod however doesn't work on dev)

[xdfbb]

anyone can help?

On May 22, 6:04 pm, xdfbb  wrote:
> Hi there,
> we currentely working on project which  using jaxb and jersey client to
> consume REST web services outside of GAE.
> *problem one*:
> I can find couple of thread ( *jaxb 
> support*
>   
> *JAXB Support* 
> (2) 
>  
> ) which talking about jaxb versions on GAE, seems 2.1.12 can be supported,
> but there is no "offical answer" of what is the exact version we should use,
> is there any google guys can confirm the version number for us?
>
> do we need to inculde jaxb-api.jar and jaxb-impl.jar in web-inf/lib/ folder
> when we deploy them onto GAE?
>
> *problem two*: when we testing on local dev server, when posting xml using
> jersey client, BIG xmls content will be *trunked  when it is reach certain
> length.BTW, we don't have any problem on prod env and this only happens on
> local dev server., seems maximize charactors we can send is 3853, doesn't
> anyone has similar problem like this?*

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Re: [appengine-java] Java => Google app

[Wilson MacGyver]

or if you are using gradle. gradle has a GAE plugin

https://github.com/bmuschko/gradle-gae-plugin

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rusty Wright  wrote:
> Become a fanatic and learn maven; in the long run it does make things
> easier.  Free maven books here: http://www.sonatype.com/Support/Books
>
> On 2011-05-21 03:08, programmer wrote:
>>
>> How do I make my java code or jar file an app? --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Google App Engine for Java" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to
>> google-appengine-java@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> google-appengine-java+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine-java?hl=en.
>
> --
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>
>



-- 
Omnem crede diem tibi diluxisse supremum.

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Re: [appengine-java] Java => Google app

[Rusty Wright]

Become a fanatic and learn maven; in the long run it does make things 
easier.  Free maven books here: http://www.sonatype.com/Support/Books


On 2011-05-21 03:08, programmer wrote:

How do I make my java code or jar file an app? --
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Re: [appengine-java] Re: Feelings about new pricing model

[Jeff Schnitzer]

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Jeff Schnitzer  wrote:
> Since-threaded blocking
> servers are just not cost-effective in 2010.

That sentence should read "Single-threaded blocking servers are just
not cost-effective in 2011."

Jeff

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Re: [appengine-java] Re: Feelings about new pricing model

[Jeff Schnitzer]

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Jeff Schnitzer  wrote:
>
> optimal concurrency
>

Thinking out loud here... this is an interesting phrase.

Imagine for a second that GAE was built on Node.js or an equivalent
fully-asynchronous server.  In this environment, RAM is not the
limiting factor, CPU is.  Any single instance will scale up to almost
any number of concurrent requests, limited only by maxing out a single
CPU core.  You only need another instance when you need another CPU
core.

This ignores the cost of RAM consumed by idle instances, but that is a
sunk cost.  Both old and new pricing strategies assume a single free
instance to everyone no matter what.  Yeah there is a cost for that
but it's a cost that Google has chosen to accept, so it leaves the
equation.

Multithreaded Java servers may be somewhat less optimal than a purely
async system WRT concurrency, but they should be good enough.  My
experience with JBoss clusters on modern linux is that unless you're
doing long polling, you run out of CPU long before you run out of the
ability to spawn new threads.

So, if GAE had efficient levels of concurrency, the old pricing model
(CPU time) would actually make a lot of sense - almost all apps would
have a single instance until they're sucking down so much CPU time
that they need another instance.  RAM is not the scarcest resource -
you'll run out of CPU cores long before you'll run out of additional
128M chunks of RAM.

Of course, scheduling a highly concurrent instance is harder - a hot
async instance will have a much larger impact than a hot
single-threaded instance, and a hot multi-threaded instance will be
significantly harder to manage than even a hot async instance.  But
this is why Google hires the smarties.

It's the legacy single-threaded servers that makes CPU-time pricing
unsustainable.  These systems consume vastly more RAM than they should
for equivalent amounts of traffic.  They need to be priced much higher
- but this price is likely going to be higher than any mass consumer
application developer is willing to pay.  Since-threaded blocking
servers are just not cost-effective in 2010.  They probably never
were, but Google hid that from us.

I wonder if this pricing model switch, which makes sense for the
legacy single-threaded systems, is actually going to be a liability
when everyone is converted over to multithreaded systems.  At that
point, CPU may be the bottleneck again.  And the pricing model will
need to change again.  Put it this way:  A single multithreaded Java
appserver instance should be able to happily consume every last CPU
cycle on a frontend box - and that's just the free tier.

Or maybe Google doesn't believe they will ever be able to get close to
"optimal concurrency", even with multithreaded systems.  That would
surprise me.

Maybe the answer is that there needs to be two pricing models, or some
pricing scheme that discourages development of inefficient
single-threaded blocking applications.

Jeff

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[appengine-java] Re: New deployment authentification in Plugin for Eclipse not working with Google Apps

[Jerome]

Ok, was able to get things working. In Eclipse, lower left corner,
clicking on my login (was gmail.com) ID, I was able to log out.

With this plugin version:
Google Plugin for Eclipse 3.6   2.3.1.r36v201105092302
and my Google Apps account that is now transitioned, things are back
to normal.

Cheers,

Jerome

On May 22, 4:23 pm, Jerome  wrote:
> The 1.5.0 update for GAE has been the most trouble making release to
> date for us.
>
> The main issue that is not clear yet how to workaround is the new
> login process for deployment. We use Google Apps accounts for our
> admin/dev. They are not yet "transitioned" accounts. The new login
> window does not accept any of these accounts.
>
> I tried my personal Gmail account, and that works fine, but that means
> that I now need my personal Gmail account tied in our company apps.
>
> Based on some findings online, the issue might be related to the
> Google Apps account not being transitioned yet. To verify that, I
> transitioned my account (with another set of issues that comes with
> that, which is a different story), but now how to I tell the Google
> plugin in Eclipse that I want to change my deployment account?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jerome

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Re: [appengine-java] Re: Feelings about new pricing model

[Anders]

If the application is multithreaded then new instances would not be needed, 
but yes if it's a single thread application and new requests need to be 
served then I suppose new instances must be spawned if the latency becomes 
too large. But will that happen often in practice?

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Re: [appengine-java] Re: Feelings about new pricing model

[Jeff Schnitzer]

I think you're worried about the wrong thing here.

Given the [probable] surplus of CPU in the cluster, it's unlikely that
your app will be starved for CPU.  And does your app's frontend really
perform all that much computation?

On the other hand, what happens when there is a blip in
datastore/network/whatever latency?  Assuming you're running at
reasonably optimal concurrency, you're suddenly going to need many
more instances.  Your bill is going to depend heavily on factors
entirely outside of your control.  Before, the health of GAE was
Google's problem.  Now it's your problem.

Jeff

On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Anders  wrote:
> And it is said that the new price model is more transparent. But CPU hours
> at least sounds more transparent. How many instances share the same CPU in a
> GAE server? 1, 2, 10 or 100? The new price model seems more opaque. For
> example, if 10 instances share the same CPU, then only (at best, not
> counting overhead) 1/10 of the CPU power will be available to each instance
> given they consume the same amount CPU time each, and yet all 10 instances
> will be billed the full price! What a rip off. Or probably I have missed
> something, but still, it's not clear. A better price model is needed imo.
>
> --
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[appengine-java] Re: Java => Google app

[Brandon Donnelson]

I think one of the easiest ways to do it is use the GWT setup. You don't 
have to use GWT for building the app. It sets up a nice GAE dev environment.

Brandon Donnelson
http://gwt-examples.googlecode.com

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[appengine-java] Re: Jsf 2.0 session beans

[gno]

Changed to Mojarra 2.0.3 and it seems to be working as expected.

On May 20, 1:19 am, gno  wrote:
> Everything works fine on the development server, but when I upload my
> app to app engine my session beans behave as request scoped beans. Is
> it an app engine's incompatibility?
>
> I'm using mojarra 2.0.4
>
> appengine-web.xml:
>
> 
> http://appengine.google.com/ns/1.0";>
>         gustavomzina
>         1
>         true
>         
>         
>                 
>         
>
> 
>
> web.xml:
>
> 
> http://java.sun.com/xml/ns/javaee";
>         xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance";
>         
> xsi:schemaLocation="http://java.sun.com/xml/ns/javaeehttp://java.sun.com/xml/ns/javaee/web-app_2_5.xsd";>
>
>         
>                 com.sun.faces.expressionFactory
>                 com.sun.el.ExpressionFactoryImpl
>         
>         
>                 com.sun.faces.validateXml
>                 true
>         
>         
>                 javax.faces.STATE_SAVING_METHOD
>                 client
>         
>         
>                 javax.faces.PROJECT_STAGE
>                 Production
>         
>         
>                 Faces Servlet
>                 javax.faces.webapp.FacesServlet
>                 1
>         
>         
>                 com.sun.faces.enableThreading
>                 false
>         
>         
>                 Faces Servlet
>                 *.jsf
>         
>         
>                 30
>         
>         
>                 login.jsf
>         
> 

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[appengine-java] New deployment authentification in Plugin for Eclipse not working with Google Apps

[Jerome]

The 1.5.0 update for GAE has been the most trouble making release to
date for us.

The main issue that is not clear yet how to workaround is the new
login process for deployment. We use Google Apps accounts for our
admin/dev. They are not yet "transitioned" accounts. The new login
window does not accept any of these accounts.

I tried my personal Gmail account, and that works fine, but that means
that I now need my personal Gmail account tied in our company apps.

Based on some findings online, the issue might be related to the
Google Apps account not being transitioned yet. To verify that, I
transitioned my account (with another set of issues that comes with
that, which is a different story), but now how to I tell the Google
plugin in Eclipse that I want to change my deployment account?

Cheers,

Jerome

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[appengine-java] Re: After upgrade to GAE SDK 1.5.0 - Cache is not working

[Jerome]

1.5.0.1 was published and fixes this issue. I had to manually download
it and override the 1.5.0 package, as the Eclipse 3.6 plugin update
does not see this 1.5.0.1 package online yet.

Link to download this update:
http://code.google.com/p/googleappengine/downloads/detail?name=appengine-java-sdk-1.5.0.1.zip&can=2&q=

Hope this helps.

Jerome

PS: The manual copy of appengine-jsr107cache.jar was working just as
well, and was less troubles to deal with though.

On May 18, 11:24 am, Max  wrote:
> Still waiting for the new jar to appear 
> herehttp://repo1.maven.org/maven2/com/google/appengine/appengine-jsr107ca...

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[appengine-java] Re: Feelings about new pricing model

[Anders]

And it is said that the new price model is more transparent. But CPU hours 
at least sounds more transparent. How many instances share the same CPU in a 
GAE server? 1, 2, 10 or 100? The new price model seems more opaque. For 
example, if 10 instances share the same CPU, then only (at best, not 
counting overhead) 1/10 of the CPU power will be available to each instance 
given they consume the same amount CPU time each, and yet all 10 instances 
will be billed the full price! What a rip off. Or probably I have missed 
something, but still, it's not clear. A better price model is needed imo.

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[appengine-java] Re: Feelings about new pricing model

[Anders]

The new price model says $0.08/hour for every new instance.
http://www.google.com/enterprise/appengine/appengine_pricing.html

That sounds extremely expensive, or have I missed something?

One GAE server no doubt runs many instances, or? 0.08 * 24 * 30 =
$57.6 per month. Yikes. At the moment my apps have very low traffic,
but already today 2 instances are often running. With increased
traffic many instances may be running all the time resulting in huge
monthly bills.

On May 10, 11:18 pm, Marcel Overdijk  wrote:
> Today Google announced the new pricing model to be effective later
> this year (http://googleappengine.blogspot.com/2011/05/year-ahead-for-
> google-app-engine.html).
>
> I always like the "pay per usage" model compared to the "pay per
> instance" model.
> Because of this change by Google, other platforms - like VMware's
> CloudFoundry - might be on the same pricing level and offer more
> advantage as they are more flexible in terms of frameworks supported.
>
> I'm wondering how other developers feel about this change in pricing
> model.

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[appengine-java] couple questions about consume REST services using jersey(works on prod however doesn't work on dev)

[xdfbb]

Hi there, 
we currentely working on project which  using jaxb and jersey client to 
consume REST web services outside of GAE. 
*problem one*: 
I can find couple of thread ( *jaxb 
support*
   
*JAXB Support* 
(2)
  
) which talking about jaxb versions on GAE, seems 2.1.12 can be supported, 
but there is no "offical answer" of what is the exact version we should use, 
is there any google guys can confirm the version number for us? 

do we need to inculde jaxb-api.jar and jaxb-impl.jar in web-inf/lib/ folder 
when we deploy them onto GAE?

*problem two*: when we testing on local dev server, when posting xml using 
jersey client, BIG xmls content will be *trunked  when it is reach certain 
length.BTW, we don't have any problem on prod env and this only happens on 
local dev server., seems maximize charactors we can send is 3853, doesn't 
anyone has similar problem like this?* 

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[appengine-java] Re: Java => Google app

[Ian Marshall]

Read the Java part of the Google App Engine developer's guide.


On May 21, 11:08 am, programmer  wrote:
> How do I make my java code or jar file an app?

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