Re: Image upload

2011-11-12 Thread Warren Tang
That's a convoluted way. Below is a detailed guide: 
http://www.jroller.com/hasant/entry/fileupload_with_gwt

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Re: Assistance required by a novice.

2011-11-12 Thread Warren Tang
Believe me WISIWYG is not a good way to start. 

Beginning with WISIWYG like editors (especially Microsoft's products) can 
make you do some tasks very quickly, at the price that you don't understand 
what you are doing. The generated code is usually of low quality, hard to 
read and against best practices. Inevitably something goes wrong, and it's 
time to look at the code, but you'll find it's hard because you never 
really understand it.

I'm not saying WISIWYG is wrong. Some can improve productivity with proper 
usage (especially for prototyping and for designers). But it should be in 
the right order - it's important to know what we are doing before going for 
it.

So, if you don't know Java (or Java like language such as C#) very well, I 
would suggest you begin by learning Java first. Then you can follow the 
StockWalker tutorial: 
http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/tutorial/gettingstarted.html


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Re: Image upload

2011-11-12 Thread Warren Tang
You can use gwtupload widget which works without a form:
http://code.google.com/p/gwtupload/

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Re: future of gwt & who use gwt

2011-11-06 Thread Warren Tang
GWT is good at RIA, but not fit for CMS which values SEO. Actually SEO 
in all AJAX applications is a challenge. The solution provided by Google 
(#!) hasn't been adopted by other search engines.


Regards,
Warren Tang <http://blog.tangcs.com>

On 11/7/2011 12:15 AM, Brandon Donnelson wrote:

I think GWT is awesome for any type of web application.

I think RPC is by far the easiest to use and work with, especially if 
you're new to GWT. There are many communication paths you can do with 
GWT and they all work great.


I'm sure Dart will have some libs to deal with communicating down the 
road.


Brandon Donnelson
http://gwt-examples.googlecode.com


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Re: future of gwt & who use gwt

2011-10-28 Thread Warren Tang

The following line is also important:

(GWT) Aiming for fewer releases, less overhaul.

Regards,
Warren Tang <http://blog.tangcs.com>


On Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:04:09 AM, Thomas Broyer wrote:
David Chandler recently put his SenchaCon slides online: 
http://www.dartlang.org/slides/2011/10/senchacon/index.html#39


"What about GWT?
Google is heavily invested"

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Re: what is this in ui.xml?

2011-10-24 Thread Warren Tang
Please read this:
http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/wiki/CssResource#External_and_legacy_scopes
 

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Re: future of gwt & who use gwt

2011-10-24 Thread Warren Tang
Another language, oh my...

The death of Go seems to me that Dart is just another experiment of Google. 
Whether it  will gain popularity or not is under question. Replacing GWT 
(Java) with something else will definitely drive away many java programmers, 
who are already overburdened by so many technologies and value making most 
of their existing skills.

IMHO. the possibility of Google getting rid of Java is low, but Dart is 
about future, maybe not the near future, maybe the day Java loses its prime 
time. It could also give Google a good position in negotiating web 
standards, as Google's eyes are on the web.

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Re: Do I have to use DTO if I use GWT + JPA?

2011-09-26 Thread Warren Tang
Thanks for your suggestions. I'll look into Gilead or something like 
Hibernate Filter (though I use EclipseLink).


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Re: Do I have to use DTO if I use GWT + JPA?

2011-09-25 Thread Warren Tang

Thanks for your reply. I also read this:

http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/articles/using_gwt_with_hibernate.html

It seems that I have to go DTO anyway.

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On Monday, September 26, 2011 10:55:51 AM, Behi wrote:


Lazy loading won't work on the client side as the JPA session is only
maintained on the server side and only detached objects are sent down
to the client. You would need to use DTOs and send the fully-loaded
domain objects to the client.

On Sep 26, 12:21 pm, Warren Tang  wrote:


Some say transferring entities cross the wire may cause problems, 
e.g. lazy

loading.

But I feel reluctant to introduce DTO. It's boilerplate and it's not 
right.


I also looked at RequestFactory and it seems a solution. However I'm also
using GWTP's command pattern, which doesn't seem to work with
RequestFactory.

Is there any alternatives? Do I have to use DTO?




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Do I have to use DTO if I use GWT + JPA?

2011-09-25 Thread Warren Tang
Some say transferring entities cross the wire may cause problems, e.g. lazy 
loading. 

But I feel reluctant to introduce DTO. It's boilerplate and it's not right.

I also looked at RequestFactory and it seems a solution. However I'm also 
using GWTP's command pattern, which doesn't seem to work with 
RequestFactory.

Is there any alternatives? Do I have to use DTO?

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Re: a basic gwt-maven-plugin question

2011-09-16 Thread Warren Tang
True. That's what the "Update Project Configuration" command is meant to 
do. So the settings needs to be in pom.xml for it to survive the 
command. This can be done with the "build-helper-maven-plugin":


org.codehaus.mojo
build-helper-maven-plugin
1.7


add-source

add-source



${project.build.directory}/generated-sources/apt
${project.build.directory}/generated-sources/gwt




Regards,
Warren Tang <http://blog.tangcs.com>

On 9/16/2011 11:20 PM, Y2i wrote:
Warren, I think that the manually configured things should be broken 
after running Update Project Configuration.  If the project is driven 
by maven, it does not make sense to store Eclipse configuration in the 
source control system.  Eclipse support should be automatically 
generated from the POM when importing a maven project to eclipse.  And 
/mvn eclipse:clean/ should wipe out all eclipse support. --




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Re: a basic gwt-maven-plugin question

2011-09-16 Thread Warren Tang

Maven - update project configuration does break things for me:

1. Modules argument missing in .launch files.
2. GWT support unchecked.


Seems like gwt-maven-plugin does not catch up and still works in old ways.

Regards,
Warren Tang <http://blog.tangcs.com>

On 9/16/2011 3:29 PM, Alexandre Dupriez wrote:

Could you please send us the relevant part of your POM and GWT module
configuration file?



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Re: Missing required argument 'module[s]' error

2011-09-16 Thread Warren Tang
The missing module argument is the full name of your module, e.g. 
"com.google.gwt.sample.mail.Mail". Add it to the end of the argument in Run 
Configuration and the error should disappear. 

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Re: a basic gwt-maven-plugin question

2011-09-16 Thread Warren Tang
It doesn't happen to me (Eclipse 3.6). I'd suggest you check this wiki 
for eclipse setup:

http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/wiki/WorkingWithMaven

Regards,
Warren Tang <http://blog.tangcs.com>

On 9/16/2011 2:58 PM, Y2i wrote:
The problem with that is /Maven->Update Project Configuration/ wipes 
out this manual setting.
Is it possible to do configure this in POM?  Ideally, it would useful 
to control the project from the command line outside of Eclipse.




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Re: a basic gwt-maven-plugin question

2011-09-15 Thread Warren Tang
Right click on that folder and then select "Build Path > Use as Source 
Folder".

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Re: How can I bring up the split-view in GPE?

2011-09-11 Thread Warren Tang
Thanks for help. 

By the way. Wouldn't it be more intuitive and straight forward if we add a 
"split" tab just beside the "XML Source" and "Design" tab, just like this:



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Re: How can I bring up the split-view in GPE?

2011-09-11 Thread Warren Tang
Tested with a new Eclipse Indigo 64-bit installation, I found that if I 
install GWT Designer from its own update site, it doesn't work; however 
if I install the GWT Designer using GPE update site, it works fine.


On Monday, September 12, 2011 10:42:51 AM, Eric Clayberg (Google) wrote:


Looks like GWT Designer is not installed for some reason. Try
installing it again from the GPE update site or the GWT Designer
update site.


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Re: How can I bring up the split-view in GPE?

2011-09-11 Thread Warren Tang
Please see the picture:





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Re: How can I bring up the split-view in GPE?

2011-09-11 Thread Warren Tang
I don't have that "designer" option. I've checked my installed details, 
and the versions of GPE, GWT and GWT Designer are all 2.4.0.r37


On Monday, September 12, 2011 5:21:26 AM, Eric Clayberg (Google) wrote:

<http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/tools/gwtdesigner/preferences/gwt/images/preferences_gpe_designer.png>


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Re: How can I bring up the split-view in GPE?

2011-09-11 Thread Warren Tang

Certainly. I cannot find "editor layout". Could you be more specific?

On Monday, September 12, 2011 1:49:41 AM, Eric Clayberg (Google) wrote:

Did you install GWT Designer?

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Re: How can I bring up the split-view in GPE?

2011-09-11 Thread Warren Tang

Hi Ido,

I didn't find "Designer" under "Web Toolkit". I am using Eclipse Indigo 
and just updated GPE from 2.3 to 2.4 via Eclipse Update.


On 9/11/2011 10:52 PM, Ido wrote:
Windows -> Preferences -> Google -> Web Toolkit -> Designer -> Editor 
Layout --




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How can I bring up the split-view in GPE?

2011-09-11 Thread Warren Tang
I opened an ui.xml file but found no where to invoke the split-view. How can 
I bring it up?

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Re: no "run as GWT application" in Eclipse 3.7 (indigo)

2011-08-07 Thread Warren Tang
Then it shall be removed to avoid confusion.

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Re: no "run as GWT application" in Eclipse 3.7 (indigo)

2011-08-06 Thread Warren Tang
I noticed that "Run as Web Application" and "Run as GWT application" has 
different user interfaces - the former runs in an embedded window in eclipse 
while the latter runs as a standalone app. Does anyone know the differences? 


Besides, there is also a "Compile as GWT application" command in the full 
version of GWT Designer. I find it's easier to find than the toolbar button. 


I'd love a package command too, but for now I use Maven for packaging. An 
alternative is ant as described in the following articles in details:
http://www.rubiconred.com/blog/build-package-a-gwt-app-to-war-using-ant/

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Re: How can I get the "Expenses" sample up and running?

2011-07-31 Thread Warren Tang
It works now though I don't know why.

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Re: How can I get the "Expenses" sample up and running?

2011-07-25 Thread Warren Tang
I'm using Windows 7 64bit / Eclipse 3.7 64bit / Latest SDKs.

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Re: How can I get the "Expenses" sample up and running?

2011-07-25 Thread Warren Tang
Hi David,

I'm really thankful for your patience for answering this starter's 
question. 

I imported the project into eclipse from according to the readme file. Maven 
had an issue finding the gwt-servlet2.2.jar. I fixed it by changing the GWT 
version to 2.3.0 in pom.xml, and adding GWT SDK and Appengine SDK to the 
classpath. The project was then built successfully. But when I run it in the 
dev mode, the following error appears in eclipse's console view:

Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: 
org.mortbay.thread.Timeout.(Ljava/lang/Object;)V
at 
org.mortbay.io.nio.SelectorManager$SelectSet.(SelectorManager.java:306)
at org.mortbay.io.nio.SelectorManager.doStart(SelectorManager.java:223)
at org.mortbay.component.AbstractLifeCycle.start(AbstractLifeCycle.java:39)
at 
org.mortbay.jetty.nio.SelectChannelConnector.doStart(SelectChannelConnector.java:303)
at org.mortbay.component.AbstractLifeCycle.start(AbstractLifeCycle.java:39)
at org.mortbay.jetty.Server.doStart(Server.java:233)
at org.mortbay.component.AbstractLifeCycle.start(AbstractLifeCycle.java:39)
at 
com.google.gwt.dev.shell.jetty.JettyLauncher.start(JettyLauncher.java:667)
at com.google.gwt.dev.DevMode.doStartUpServer(DevMode.java:500)
at com.google.gwt.dev.DevModeBase.startUp(DevModeBase.java:1055)
at com.google.gwt.dev.DevModeBase.run(DevModeBase.java:804)
at com.google.gwt.dev.DevMode.main(DevMode.java:309)

I've no idea what it means. 

Besides, it should need my appengine credentials in order to fill data into 
appengine, right? How can I configure it? 


On Monday, July 25, 2011 10:52:58 PM UTC+8, David Chandler (Google) wrote:
>
> The Expenses sample is designed to be used with Maven. See
> README-MAVEN.txt in the samples/expenses folder and follow
> instructions there.
>
> /dmc
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Warren Tang  wrote:
> > I have trouble to run the "Expenses" sample in GWT's samples folder. The
> > sample appeared in Google I/O sessions a few times.
> >
> > I'm not familiar with App Engine, but this is what I've done:
> >
> > create an new Eclipse project and then overwrite the src and war with 
> those
> > from the Expenses sample.
> > add App Engine support and specified the application id/name I got by
> > creating a new application in appengine.google.com.
> > compile "LoadExpensesDB.gwt.xml" (which I assume is used to fill 
> appengine
> > with some sample data.).The permunations completed but at the beginning 
> of
> > the log their are some errors:
> > Compiling module com.google.gwt.sample.expenses.LoadExpensesDB
> >Validating newly compiled units
> >   [ERROR] Errors in
> > 
> 'file:/D:/work/learning/gwt/Expenses/java/com/google/gwt/sample/expenses/shared/EmployeeProxy.java'
> >  [ERROR] Line 25:
> > com.google.gwt.sample.expenses.server.domain.Employee cannot be resolved 
> to
> > a type
> >   [ERROR] Errors in
> > 
> 'file:/D:/work/learning/gwt/Expenses/java/com/google/gwt/sample/expenses/shared/EmployeeRequest.java'
> >  [ERROR] Line 22: The import
> > com.google.gwt.sample.expenses.server.domain.Employee cannot be resolved
> >  [ERROR] Line 29: Employee cannot be resolved to a type
> > ... ...
> > When I run the module I got
> >HTTP ERROR: 503  SERVICE_UNAVAILABLE
> > The log in hosted getty says:
> > 00:00:00.008 [WARN] failed GaeAuthFilter
> > javax.servlet.UnavailableException:
> > com.google.gwt.sample.gaerequest.server.GaeAuthFilter
> >   at org.mortbay.jetty.servlet.Holder.doStart(Holder.java:79)
> >   at org.mortbay.jetty.servlet.FilterHolder.doStart(FilterHolder.java:81)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Warren
> >
> >
>
> -- 
> David Chandler
> Developer Programs Engineer, GWT+GAE
> w: http://code.google.com/
> b: http://turbomanage.wordpress.com/
> b: http://googlewebtoolkit.blogspot.com/
> t: @googledevtools
>
>

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How can I get the "Expenses" sample up and running?

2011-07-24 Thread Warren Tang
I have trouble to run the "Expenses" sample in GWT's samples folder. The 
sample appeared in Google I/O sessions a few times. 

I'm not familiar with App Engine, but this is what I've done:

   1. create an new Eclipse project and then overwrite the src and war with 
   those from the Expenses sample.
   2. add App Engine support and specified the application id/name I got by 
   creating a new application in appengine.google.com.
   3. compile "LoadExpensesDB.gwt.xml" (which I assume is used to fill 
   appengine with some sample data.).The permunations completed but at the 
   beginning of the log their are some errors:
   Compiling module com.google.gwt.sample.expenses.LoadExpensesDB
  Validating newly compiled units
 [ERROR] Errors in 
   
'file:/D:/work/learning/gwt/Expenses/java/com/google/gwt/sample/expenses/shared/EmployeeProxy.java'
[ERROR] Line 25: 
   com.google.gwt.sample.expenses.server.domain.Employee cannot be resolved to 
   a type
 [ERROR] Errors in 
   
'file:/D:/work/learning/gwt/Expenses/java/com/google/gwt/sample/expenses/shared/EmployeeRequest.java'
[ERROR] Line 22: The import 
   com.google.gwt.sample.expenses.server.domain.Employee cannot be resolved
[ERROR] Line 29: Employee cannot be resolved to a type 
   ... ...
   4. When I run the module I got 
  HTTP ERROR: 503  SERVICE_UNAVAILABLE
   The log in hosted getty says:
   00:00:00.008 [WARN] failed GaeAuthFilter
   javax.servlet.UnavailableException: 
   com.google.gwt.sample.gaerequest.server.GaeAuthFilter 
 at org.mortbay.jetty.servlet.Holder.doStart(Holder.java:79) 
 at org.mortbay.jetty.servlet.FilterHolder.doStart(FilterHolder.java:81)

Regards, 
Warren

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Re: Need suggestions on supporting both Web and Desktop front-end.

2011-07-15 Thread Warren Tang
The info is quite valuable. Thanks.

BTW. The application shows blank page in IE9 but works fine in the latest 
Firefox and Chrome.

To Alain: By "run real java code" I mean the java code (business logic) 
should not be compiled to javascript (with the GWT compiler). Instead it 
should run natively on a JVM.

On Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:56:54 AM UTC+8, Craig Mitchell wrote:
>
> I have done this.  I embedded GWT inside a Jetty server and ran it on the 
> users PC.  It all launches from a JNLP file.
>
> You can check it out if you like http://simplevnc.appspot.com/  (still 
> very much in beta, but shows you downloading and running a GWT web server).
>
> BTW:  Most companies I know of are trying to get away from using Swing.
>

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Re: Need suggestions on supporting both Web and Desktop front-end.

2011-07-13 Thread Warren Tang
I'll definitely check the Google IO videos. But I assume the new HTML5 
features won't work in legacy browsers like IE6? Anyway I don't think it 
can help me. The desktop application is offline (for a single user), but 
it should be able to execute *real* java code (not only javascript). I 
got the idea of embedding a local web server and the running my GWT 
application inside it from IRC.


Should I just go Swing as apposed to an offline GWT application (meaning 
"locally online" with an embedded web server in JRE)? Swing should do 
but the later could be much easier. I just don't know the difficulties 
of deploying such a GWT application running on an embedded web server. 
The end users is unskilled so the installation process should be as easy 
as possible. Are there any guides or should I try it out myself?


On 7/13/2011 8:27 PM, David Chandler wrote:
Don't forget that HTML5 brings with it a lot of support for offline 
apps: app cache, local storage, and the filesystem API 
(http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/file/filesystem/). GWT will 
auto-generate an app cache manifest for you via an app cache linker 
(see Chris Ramsdale's presentation on mobile apps with GWT from I/O 
this year), and GWT 2.3 offers the Local Storage API (also discussed 
in the same presentation).


/dmc

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 7:33 AM, Magno Machado <mailto:magn...@gmail.com>> wrote:


>>You could write your backend in java exposing services through
requestfactory and consume them from the gwt and swing frontend

>Does your suggestion still applies? The desktop application should
be easy to install and do not need to configure any servers
locally. I'm relative >now to Java, so I'd be really grateful if
you could elaborate.
As a said before, I never done that before (using RF from non-gwt
clients), but Thomas confirmed that it's possible.
Your app will carry the requestfactory-client.jar, I don't think
you need any server localy. You will need, of course, configure
the app to tell it where the RF server is located

>>Anyway, can't the desktop users simply use the gwt app?

>What limitations does it have?
Well, desktop apps are desktop apps. It's far easier to do things
like access filesystem, external devices, etc. If you don't depend
on such things, then I think your users will be ok with only the
gwt frontend

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 5:28 AM, Alain Ekambi
mailto:jazzmatad...@googlemail.com>>
wrote:

If you (or your customer) can afford  writing 2 different
client for the same application, then a native desktop
client(be it Java, C#, or C++) is good choice.
As for having  your businnes code on the client(desktop). No
matter which language you choose the businnes code will be on
the client. So if someone really really want to crack it he will.
If it s supposed to be the same application  running on 2
    different platforms why not simply reuse code instaed of
duplicating it ?


2011/7/13 Warren Tang mailto:warren.c.t...@gmail.com>>

The desktop application works offline (do all the job
locally without ever connecting to a server). And the
business code can work with or without a database. So AIR
may not be the choice as I'm not so confident to compile
the business code into Javascript (AIR).

>>You could write your backend in java exposing services
through requestfactory and consume them from the gwt and
swing frontend

Does your suggestion still applies? The desktop
application should be easy to install and do not need to
configure any servers locally. I'm relative now to Java,
so I'd be really grateful if you could elaborate.

>>Anyway, can't the desktop users simply use the gwt app?

What limitations does it have?


On Wednesday, July 13, 2011 5:54:30 AM UTC+8, Magno
Machado wrote:

I never used it before, but afaik requestfactory can
be used from non gwt clients

You could write your backend in java exposing services
through requestfactory and consume them from the gwt
and swing frontend

Anyway, can't the desktop users simply use the gwt app?

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Alain Ekambi
 wrote:

If you  want to turn you GWT applicattion into a
desktop application Adobe AIR is a good option.
Appcelerator Titanium is also a solid but i
personally prefer AIR.


2011/7/12 Juan Pablo Gardella 

  

Re: Need suggestions on supporting both Web and Desktop front-end.

2011-07-12 Thread Warren Tang
The desktop application works offline (do all the job locally without ever 
connecting to a server). And the business code can work with or without a 
database. So AIR may not be the choice as I'm not so confident to compile 
the business code into Javascript (AIR). 

>>You could write your backend in java exposing services through 
requestfactory and consume them from the gwt and swing frontend

Does your suggestion still applies? The desktop application should be easy 
to install and do not need to configure any servers locally. I'm relative 
now to Java, so I'd be really grateful if you could elaborate.

>>Anyway, can't the desktop users simply use the gwt app?

What limitations does it have?

On Wednesday, July 13, 2011 5:54:30 AM UTC+8, Magno Machado wrote:
>
> I never used it before, but afaik requestfactory can be used from non gwt 
> clients
>
> You could write your backend in java exposing services through 
> requestfactory and consume them from the gwt and swing frontend
>
> Anyway, can't the desktop users simply use the gwt app?
>
> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Alain Ekambi wrote:
>
>> If you  want to turn you GWT applicattion into a desktop application Adobe 
>> AIR is a good option.
>> Appcelerator Titanium is also a solid but i personally prefer AIR.
>>
>>
>> 2011/7/12 Juan Pablo Gardella 
>>
>>> gwt4air perhaps help. 
>>>
>>>
>>> 2011/7/12 Warren Tang 
>>>
>>>> I need to build an application which has both a web font-end and a 
>>>> desktop front-end. There is a relational database. Lightweight frameworks 
>>>> are preferred. 
>>>> My previous project was done with SmartGWT + GWT + MyBatis. And it is 
>>>> the only java project I've done. 
>>>> Currently my thought is GWT + Spring + MyBatis. I also heard about 
>>>> SpringRoo. But the idea is quite vague for me. So could someone kindly 
>>>> make 
>>>> it clear for me? How can I use GWT + Swing/SwingRoo to support both the 
>>>> web 
>>>> and the desktop client, and reuse the business code? What else do I need? 
>>>> What's their roles? 
>>>>  
>>>> -- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>> Groups "Google Web Toolkit" group.
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>>>>
>>>
>>>  -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> GWT API for  non Java based platforms
>> http://code.google.com/p/gwt4air/
>> http://www.gwt4air.appspot.com/
>>
>>
>>  -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Magno Machado Paulo
> http://blog.magnomachado.com.br
> http://code.google.com/p/emballo/
>  

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Re: Need suggestions on supporting both Web and Desktop front-end.

2011-07-12 Thread Warren Tang
The desktop application works offline (do all the job locally without ever 
connecting to a server). And the business code can work with or without a 
database. So AIR may not be the choice as I'm not so confident to compile 
the business code into Javascript (AIR). 

>>You could write your backend in java exposing services through 
requestfactory and consume them from the gwt and swing frontend

Does your suggestion still applies? The desktop application should be easy 
to install and do not need to configure any servers locally. I'm relative 
now to Java, so I'd be really grateful if you could elaborate.

>>Anyway, can't the desktop users simply use the gwt app?

What limitations do it have?

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Need suggestions on supporting both Web and Desktop front-end.

2011-07-12 Thread Warren Tang
I need to build an application which has both a web font-end and a desktop 
front-end. There is a relational database. Lightweight frameworks are 
preferred. 
My previous project was done with SmartGWT + GWT + MyBatis. And it is the 
only java project I've done. 
Currently my thought is GWT + Spring + MyBatis. I also heard about 
SpringRoo. But the idea is quite vague for me. So could someone kindly make 
it clear for me? How can I use GWT + Swing/SwingRoo to support both the web 
and the desktop client, and reuse the business code? What else do I need? 
What's their roles? 

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