Re: GWT Violates LGPL
So GWT distribution includes JFreeChart which is LGPL. Problem would be here, Allan, something wrong related to section 4 of the license ? On 8 avr, 07:15, Ian Petersen ispet...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Ian Petersen ispet...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Ian Bambury ianbamb...@gmail.com wrote: If you *don't* release a product under a certain licence, then how can it be possibly be a concern if the product doesn't comply to the licence it isn't released under? I think you've just summarized the irrelevance of this whole thread. I'm a little too sarcastic for my own good. You could violate the GPL (or any license) if you incorporated code from some other project into GWT. Suppose I released a project under the GPL and somebody took some code from my project and got it incorporated into GWT. GWT would probably be unwittingly violating the GPL because it would be a derivative work of my project and it's not being distributed under the terms of the GPL. I don't think that was the scenario originally presented in this thread, though, and I don't think there's any reason to believe that GWT contains contraband code. Also, to contribute to GWT, you first have to sign a document that says your contributions are all unencumbered from a copyright perspective (and possibly a patent perspective, too--I forget). Ian --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
On Apr 6, 10:52 pm, Daniel Berlin daniel.ber...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 6, 4:27 pm, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: The LGPL does not require source, it is only one of a myriad of options to comply with it. I think (but not sure) I've read somewhere a discussion with a FSF guy saying that the other options were not appliable to GWT. Anyway, why would GWT have to comply with LGPL. Does it use any LGPL component ? I looked at http://code.google.com/intl/en/webtoolkit/terms.html, it talks about JFreeChart. Didn't know JFreeChart was conveyed with GWT ?! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
It says : Could not locate 'about.html' in installation directory. :-p On 7 avr, 13:10, Miguel Ping miguel.p...@gmail.com wrote: Just click the 'about' button on the hosted mode browser (the bg window) On Apr 7, 9:43 am, Miles T. dupont.nico...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 6, 10:52 pm, Daniel Berlin daniel.ber...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 6, 4:27 pm, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: The LGPL does not require source, it is only one of a myriad of options to comply with it. I think (but not sure) I've read somewhere a discussion with a FSF guy saying that the other options were not appliable to GWT. Anyway, why would GWT have to comply with LGPL. Does it use any LGPL component ? I looked athttp://code.google.com/intl/en/webtoolkit/terms.html, it talks about JFreeChart. Didn't know JFreeChart was conveyed with GWT ?! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
Just click the 'about' button on the hosted mode browser (the bg window) On Apr 7, 9:43 am, Miles T. dupont.nico...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 6, 10:52 pm, Daniel Berlin daniel.ber...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 6, 4:27 pm, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: The LGPL does not require source, it is only one of a myriad of options to comply with it. I think (but not sure) I've read somewhere a discussion with a FSF guy saying that the other options were not appliable to GWT. Anyway, why would GWT have to comply with LGPL. Does it use any LGPL component ? I looked athttp://code.google.com/intl/en/webtoolkit/terms.html, it talks about JFreeChart. Didn't know JFreeChart was conveyed with GWT ?! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
There is also an about.txt[html] with the GWT distribution. Here are the notable bits: | This product includes software developed by: | - The Apache Software Foundation (http://www.apache.org/). |- Tomcat (http://tomcat.apache.org/) with modifications |- Tapestry (http://tapestry.apache.org/) | - The Eclipse Foundation (http://www.eclipse.org/). |- Java Development Tools (http://www.eclipse.org/jdt/) |- Standard Widget Toolkit (http://www.eclipse.org/swt/) with modifications | - The JFreeChart project (http://www.jfree.org/jfreechart/) | - The Mozilla Foundation (http://www.mozilla.org/). |- Mozilla 1.7.12 (http://www.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla1.7.12/) |- Rhino (http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/) with modifications | - The OpenQA Project (http://openqa.org/) |- Selenium-RC (http://selenium-rc.openqa.org/) | - The WebKit Open Source Project (http://www.webkit.org) So, there is probably some LGPL code in there. But all of this is available in svn isn't it? Wouldn't that comply with any potential make the source available rule? Enough license talk... back to some coding. Rob http://roberthanson.org On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 7:54 AM, Miles T. dupont.nico...@gmail.com wrote: It says : Could not locate 'about.html' in installation directory. :-p On 7 avr, 13:10, Miguel Ping miguel.p...@gmail.com wrote: Just click the 'about' button on the hosted mode browser (the bg window) On Apr 7, 9:43 am, Miles T. dupont.nico...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 6, 10:52 pm, Daniel Berlin daniel.ber...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 6, 4:27 pm, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: The LGPL does not require source, it is only one of a myriad of options to comply with it. I think (but not sure) I've read somewhere a discussion with a FSF guy saying that the other options were not appliable to GWT. Anyway, why would GWT have to comply with LGPL. Does it use any LGPL component ? I looked athttp://code.google.com/intl/en/webtoolkit/terms.html, it talks about JFreeChart. Didn't know JFreeChart was conveyed with GWT ?! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
What a farce. Who cares if it violates the LGPL (besides perhaps RMS)? GWT is release under the Apache v2.0 License. The two are completely separate from each other. About the only common heritage they share is the fact that they're OSI approved. On Apr 8, 12:18 am, Robert Hanson iamroberthan...@gmail.com wrote: There is also an about.txt[html] with the GWT distribution. Here are the notable bits: | This product includes software developed by: | - The Apache Software Foundation (http://www.apache.org/). | - Tomcat (http://tomcat.apache.org/) with modifications | - Tapestry (http://tapestry.apache.org/) | - The Eclipse Foundation (http://www.eclipse.org/). | - Java Development Tools (http://www.eclipse.org/jdt/) | - Standard Widget Toolkit (http://www.eclipse.org/swt/) with modifications | - The JFreeChart project (http://www.jfree.org/jfreechart/) | - The Mozilla Foundation (http://www.mozilla.org/). | - Mozilla 1.7.12 (http://www.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla1.7.12/) | - Rhino (http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/) with modifications | - The OpenQA Project (http://openqa.org/) | - Selenium-RC (http://selenium-rc.openqa.org/) | - The WebKit Open Source Project (http://www.webkit.org) So, there is probably some LGPL code in there. But all of this is available in svn isn't it? Wouldn't that comply with any potential make the source available rule? Enough license talk... back to some coding. Robhttp://roberthanson.org On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 7:54 AM, Miles T. dupont.nico...@gmail.com wrote: It says : Could not locate 'about.html' in installation directory. :-p On 7 avr, 13:10, Miguel Ping miguel.p...@gmail.com wrote: Just click the 'about' button on the hosted mode browser (the bg window) On Apr 7, 9:43 am, Miles T. dupont.nico...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 6, 10:52 pm, Daniel Berlin daniel.ber...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 6, 4:27 pm, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: The LGPL does not require source, it is only one of a myriad of options to comply with it. I think (but not sure) I've read somewhere a discussion with a FSF guy saying that the other options were not appliable to GWT. Anyway, why would GWT have to comply with LGPL. Does it use any LGPL component ? I looked athttp://code.google.com/intl/en/webtoolkit/terms.html, it talks about JFreeChart. Didn't know JFreeChart was conveyed with GWT ?! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 1:32 PM, ginger_ninja david.s.k...@gmail.com wrote: What a farce. Who cares if it violates the LGPL (besides perhaps RMS)? That's a ridiculous comment. Because GWT is released under the Apache license, I don't understand how this conversation even got started but if, hypothetically, GWT _did_ violate the LGPL, that's an important problem. Suggesting that RMS is the only person that could possbily care is absurd. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
I know *nothing* about licensing, but I've been following this, and I apologise if it's a stupid question but... If you *don't* release a product under a certain licence, then how can it be possibly be a concern if the product doesn't comply to the licence it isn't released under? Ian http://examples.roughian.com 2009/4/8 Ian Petersen ispet...@gmail.com On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 1:32 PM, ginger_ninja david.s.k...@gmail.com wrote: What a farce. Who cares if it violates the LGPL (besides perhaps RMS)? That's a ridiculous comment. Because GWT is released under the Apache license, I don't understand how this conversation even got started but if, hypothetically, GWT _did_ violate the LGPL, that's an important problem. Suggesting that RMS is the only person that could possbily care is absurd. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
The original question was whether or not GWT was in violation of the LGPL, which it would only be if GWT utilized a LGPL component without following the license. At that point, RMS would not care (or at least, would not be in a position to do anything about it). The only people at that point that could start anything would be the copyright holders for the LGPL code of which GWT is in violation of. License violations are a strict legal term that define whether or not you are using a licensed work (in this case a work with a copyright license) but not fulfilling its terms. If you do not use any work under a specific license, you can never be in violation of that license. It has nothing to do whether or not the license that you choose for your work is in the spirit of another license since you are free to pick any license without consequence (provided it is compatible with other licenses you may be using). On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Ian Bambury ianbamb...@gmail.com wrote: I know *nothing* about licensing, but I've been following this, and I apologise if it's a stupid question but... If you *don't* release a product under a certain licence, then how can it be possibly be a concern if the product doesn't comply to the licence it isn't released under? Ian http://examples.roughian.com 2009/4/8 Ian Petersen ispet...@gmail.com On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 1:32 PM, ginger_ninja david.s.k...@gmail.com wrote: What a farce. Who cares if it violates the LGPL (besides perhaps RMS)? That's a ridiculous comment. Because GWT is released under the Apache license, I don't understand how this conversation even got started but if, hypothetically, GWT _did_ violate the LGPL, that's an important problem. Suggesting that RMS is the only person that could possbily care is absurd. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Ian Bambury ianbamb...@gmail.com wrote: If you *don't* release a product under a certain licence, then how can it be possibly be a concern if the product doesn't comply to the licence it isn't released under? I think you've just summarized the irrelevance of this whole thread. Ian --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:09 PM, Ian Petersen ispet...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Ian Bambury ianbamb...@gmail.com wrote: If you *don't* release a product under a certain licence, then how can it be possibly be a concern if the product doesn't comply to the licence it isn't released under? I think you've just summarized the irrelevance of this whole thread. I'm a little too sarcastic for my own good. You could violate the GPL (or any license) if you incorporated code from some other project into GWT. Suppose I released a project under the GPL and somebody took some code from my project and got it incorporated into GWT. GWT would probably be unwittingly violating the GPL because it would be a derivative work of my project and it's not being distributed under the terms of the GPL. I don't think that was the scenario originally presented in this thread, though, and I don't think there's any reason to believe that GWT contains contraband code. Also, to contribute to GWT, you first have to sign a document that says your contributions are all unencumbered from a copyright perspective (and possibly a patent perspective, too--I forget). Ian --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
Last time i checked the source code is with the binary. everything is in the jar files. On Apr 6, 1:27 pm, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: LGPL/GPL have the obligation to provide source with any binary distributions. Source can be provided directly with the binaries or in an offer, made available to the public for 3 years. You cannot fulfill the obligation by pointing to a 3rd party download site for the source. Go ask Cisco and others who have had to comply with this requirement. GWT/Google provides neither an offer or the source. Not only is Google in violation but I, or any one redistributing GWT, will be violating LGPL as well. I will have to separately provide the source any time I distribute GWT. GWT package should include the source code for any LGPL components. How does one get Google GWT project managers to be aware of this issue? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
On Apr 6, 4:27 pm, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: LGPL/GPL have the obligation to provide source with any binary distributions. Source can be provided directly with the binaries or in an offer, made available to the public for 3 years. No, this is true of works using the GPL, but not of works using the LGPL. You cannot fulfill the obligation by pointing to a 3rd party download site for the source. Go ask Cisco and others who have had to comply with this requirement. The LGPL does not require source, it is only one of a myriad of options to comply with it. GWT/Google provides neither an offer or the source. As they don't have to Not only is Google in violation but I, or any one redistributing GWT, will be violating LGPL as well. I will have to separately provide the source any time I distribute GWT. No, you aren't. GWT package should include the source code for any LGPL components. It doesn't have to. If GWT was modifying the LGPL works, it would need to comply with other sections of the LGPL, but as it simply uses the works unmodified, it is only required to comply with section 6. See section 6 of LGPL 2.1 (which is the license for the LGPL components of GWT): 6. As an exception to the Sections above, you may also combine or link a work that uses the Library with the Library to produce a work containing portions of the Library, and distribute that work under terms of your choice, provided that the terms permit modification of the work for the customer's own use and reverse engineering for debugging such modifications. You must give prominent notice with each copy of the work that the Library is used in it and that the Library and its use are covered by this License. You must supply a copy of this License. If the work during execution displays copyright notices, you must include the copyright notice for the Library among them, as well as a reference directing the user to the copy of this License. Also, you must do one of these things: ... b) Use a suitable shared library mechanism for linking with the Library. A suitable mechanism is one that (1) uses at run time a copy of the library already present on the user's computer system, rather than copying library functions into the executable, and (2) will operate properly with a modified version of the library, if the user installs one, as long as the modified version is interface-compatible with the version that the work was made with. As GWT complies with section 6 (and is a work that uses the library), using option b (note it says you must do one of these things, not all of these things), there is no requirement they make an offer for source. HTH, Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
Isn't GWT released under the Apache license? I don't think it's possible for GWT to violate the GPL. Of course, I'm not a lawyer Ian On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:27 PM, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: LGPL/GPL have the obligation to provide source with any binary distributions. Source can be provided directly with the binaries or in an offer, made available to the public for 3 years. You cannot fulfill the obligation by pointing to a 3rd party download site for the source. Go ask Cisco and others who have had to comply with this requirement. GWT/Google provides neither an offer or the source. Not only is Google in violation but I, or any one redistributing GWT, will be violating LGPL as well. I will have to separately provide the source any time I distribute GWT. GWT package should include the source code for any LGPL components. How does one get Google GWT project managers to be aware of this issue? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
You've stated some very bold claims. How did you become so convinced of this violation and the need to address it? Are you the Beginning Rails author? On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:27 PM, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: LGPL/GPL have the obligation to provide source with any binary distributions. Source can be provided directly with the binaries or in an offer, made available to the public for 3 years. You cannot fulfill the obligation by pointing to a 3rd party download site for the source. Go ask Cisco and others who have had to comply with this requirement. GWT/Google provides neither an offer or the source. Not only is Google in violation but I, or any one redistributing GWT, will be violating LGPL as well. I will have to separately provide the source any time I distribute GWT. GWT package should include the source code for any LGPL components. How does one get Google GWT project managers to be aware of this issue? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: GWT Violates LGPL
On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Ian Petersen ispet...@gmail.com wrote: Isn't GWT released under the Apache license? I don't think it's possible for GWT to violate the GPL. Of course, I'm not a lawyer Yes it s released as Apache. Of course it's possible for it to violate the GPL (it doesn't as far as OI'm aware, but it is possible). This is especially unlikely considering the amount of visibility of the GWT project I'm sure that lawyer's have vetted the licensing issues. Full source code access, BTW, is available at http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/. Ian On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:27 PM, allan allan1...@gmail.com wrote: LGPL/GPL have the obligation to provide source with any binary distributions. Source can be provided directly with the binaries or in an offer, made available to the public for 3 years. GWT is not LGPL or GPL so that doesn't apply. AFAIK, they also don't make use of any LGPL or GPL code - do you have any examples of this? You cannot fulfill the obligation by pointing to a 3rd party download site for the source. Go ask Cisco and others who have had to comply with this requirement. They are not pointing to a 3rd party download site anywhere - if you don't know, Google owns the copyright to GWT also hosts the GWT project on Google code (along with other projects). As the copyright owners of the code, they can do whatever they like (copyright holders can obviously violate the terms of their license since their not going to prosecute themselves). GWT/Google provides neither an offer or the source. GWT provides the source. Not only is Google in violation but I, or any one redistributing GWT, will be violating LGPL as well. I will have to separately provide the source any time I distribute GWT. Please explain to me how the LGPL applies here - in particular, what pieces of code are covered under this license. Not to mention that all of the user-distributable stuff comes with source in the jars by design because the compiler needs them for compilation , I don't even see how this applies unless you were trying to distribute the compiler (which again you still can even without the source). GWT package should include the source code for any LGPL components. Please enumarate any LGPL components, let alone the ones that don't come with source. BTW, if you don't modify the LGPL components, pointing to the original project is sufficient (IANAL, so I could very well be wrong on this). Not sure what the behaviour is with GPL (but I'm pretty sure there you would have to provide the original source as well - a link wouldn't be enough). How does one get Google GWT project managers to be aware of this issue? If there are any real issues, they can be made aware, but there's no point disturbing them with this nonsense (although they probably monitor this list anyways). --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Google Web Toolkit group. To post to this group, send email to Google-Web-Toolkit@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to google-web-toolkit+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Web-Toolkit?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
