Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-03-08 Thread Blumentrath, Stefan
Hi,

A user perspective on this discussion:

I would be very, very keen on:
- this: https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/ticket/2579 (as well as the simple python 
import that is under development) and
- this: https://grasswiki.osgeo.org/wiki/ISO/INSPIRE_Metadata_Support and
- this: https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/ticket/2750 and 
- this: https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/browser/grass/trunk/temporal/t.rast.what 
and
- ...

Personally, I perceive GRASS as stable by design and  I very much share Markus 
N.`s view on GRASS being "my reliable number cruncher".

Backwards compatibility is less of an issue for me, as everybody can update for 
free. A significant gain in storage, performance and functionality weighs much 
more for me...

Summarizing: yes reliability is a very important quality of GRASS GIS. Yet, if 
you feel ready for a release I will embrace the new version (independent from 
its number), and am definitely willing contribute with testing release 
candidates... 

Kind regards,
Stefan




-Original Message-
From: grass-dev [mailto:grass-dev-boun...@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Markus 
Metz
Sent: 8. mars 2016 22:36
To: Moritz Lennert 
Cc: Martin Landa ; GRASS developers list 

Subject: Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Moritz Lennert  
wrote:
> On 28/02/16 00:02, Markus Metz wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Markus Neteler  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2016 5:05 PM, "Vaclav Petras"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Martin Landa 
>>>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of 
>>>>> GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option 
>>>>> about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd 
>>>>> numbers for dev versions. Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The fact that other OSGeo projects are using it is quite 
>>>> convincing. But anyway, I don't see a point in simply skipping a version 
>>>> number.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, we are using 7.1 visibly for so long as unstable/dev version.
>>> So it sounds perfectly fine to call the result 7.2.
>>
>>
>> Please be aware that because of many partial backports, relbr70 is 1) 
>> unstable (as was G6.4) and is in some regards less reliable than 
>> trunk.
>
>
> I would say this partly depends on the notion of stable and unstable. 
> Stable does not mean perfect. It just means that nothing significant 
> is going to change, or ? trunk can sometimes be in a non-functional 
> state while someone is introducing new functionality. Normally, stable 
> should never be in a non-functional state and when it is, then this is a bug 
> and will be fixed.

Assuming stable means no major changes in the code base will happen, a 
releasebranch should be stable and at the same time become more robust (bugs 
being eliminated with every z release with GRASS x.y.z).
>
>> Stable typically means backport only of critical bugxfixes.
>
>
> I do completely agree with this, and I agree that we have not been 
> careful enough and have succombed to the temptation of backporting 
> some new features. That should definitely be a no-go. Once a release 
> is out, only bug fixes should go in, no new features. If we want new 
> features to be available to users we have to release more often, 
> possibly by releasing development snapshots directly from trunk from time to 
> time.

The GRASS release policy is described in the GRASS release roadmap [0]. A 
release branch is identified by its major and minor version number. According 
to the GRASS release policy, a release branch should become more robust (have 
less bugs) with every revision. That implies that no new features are 
backported.

Following this policy would imply more frequent releases of more robust GRASS 
versions, and earlier availability of new features in a release branch because 
developers would (should) push for trunk being released as a new release branch 
because nice new features are not allowed to be backported.

>
>> Therefore, in order to stick with the odd/even numbering meaning, G7 
>> should have been released immediately as G71 to indicate a dev 
>> version. Not unstable (the code base will remain stable) but a dev 
>> version (testing new features). According to the odd/even numbering 
>> scheme, current trunk should be released as G7.3 and not G7.2 because 
>> it introduces new features.
>
Considering the history of GRASS GIS of the last 6 years, in particular 6.4, a 

Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-03-08 Thread Markus Metz
On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Moritz Lennert
 wrote:
> On 28/02/16 00:02, Markus Metz wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Markus Neteler  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2016 5:05 PM, "Vaclav Petras"  wrote:



 On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Martin Landa 
 wrote:
>
>
> this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of
> GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option
> about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd numbers
> for dev versions. Martin




 The fact that other OSGeo projects are using it is quite convincing. But
 anyway, I don't see a point in simply skipping a version number.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, we are using 7.1 visibly for so long as unstable/dev version.
>>> So it sounds perfectly fine to call the result 7.2.
>>
>>
>> Please be aware that because of many partial backports, relbr70 is 1)
>> unstable (as was G6.4) and is in some regards less reliable than
>> trunk.
>
>
> I would say this partly depends on the notion of stable and unstable. Stable
> does not mean perfect. It just means that nothing significant is going to
> change, or ? trunk can sometimes be in a non-functional state while someone
> is introducing new functionality. Normally, stable should never be in a
> non-functional state and when it is, then this is a bug and will be fixed.

Assuming stable means no major changes in the code base will happen, a
releasebranch should be stable and at the same time become more robust
(bugs being eliminated with every z release with GRASS x.y.z).
>
>> Stable typically means backport only of critical bugxfixes.
>
>
> I do completely agree with this, and I agree that we have not been careful
> enough and have succombed to the temptation of backporting some new
> features. That should definitely be a no-go. Once a release is out, only bug
> fixes should go in, no new features. If we want new features to be available
> to users we have to release more often, possibly by releasing development
> snapshots directly from trunk from time to time.

The GRASS release policy is described in the GRASS release roadmap
[0]. A release branch is identified by its major and minor version
number. According to the GRASS release policy, a release branch should
become more robust (have less bugs) with every revision. That implies
that no new features are backported.

Following this policy would imply more frequent releases of more
robust GRASS versions, and earlier availability of new features in a
release branch because developers would (should) push for trunk being
released as a new release branch because nice new features are not
allowed to be backported.

>
>> Therefore, in order to stick with the odd/even numbering meaning, G7
>> should have been released immediately as G71 to indicate a dev
>> version. Not unstable (the code base will remain stable) but a dev
>> version (testing new features). According to the odd/even numbering
>> scheme, current trunk should be released as G7.3 and not G7.2 because
>> it introduces new features.
>
Considering the history of GRASS GIS of the last 6 years, in
particular 6.4, a GRASS GIS release x.y.0 means "new features, expect
bugs". A GRASS GIS release x.y.z means "new features, hopefully less
bugs than in x.y.(z-1), but there can be new bugs".

Markus M

[0] 
https://grasswiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Release_Roadmap#What_are_these_release_numbers.3F
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-29 Thread Moritz Lennert

On 28/02/16 00:02, Markus Metz wrote:

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Markus Neteler  wrote:


On Feb 25, 2016 5:05 PM, "Vaclav Petras"  wrote:



On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Martin Landa 
wrote:


this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of
GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option
about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd numbers
for dev versions. Martin




The fact that other OSGeo projects are using it is quite convincing. But
anyway, I don't see a point in simply skipping a version number.


Well, we are using 7.1 visibly for so long as unstable/dev version.
So it sounds perfectly fine to call the result 7.2.


Please be aware that because of many partial backports, relbr70 is 1)
unstable (as was G6.4) and is in some regards less reliable than
trunk.


I would say this partly depends on the notion of stable and unstable. 
Stable does not mean perfect. It just means that nothing significant is 
going to change, or ? trunk can sometimes be in a non-functional state 
while someone is introducing new functionality. Normally, stable should 
never be in a non-functional state and when it is, then this is a bug 
and will be fixed.



Stable typically means backport only of critical bugxfixes.


I do completely agree with this, and I agree that we have not been 
careful enough and have succombed to the temptation of backporting some 
new features. That should definitely be a no-go. Once a release is out, 
only bug fixes should go in, no new features. If we want new features to 
be available to users we have to release more often, possibly by 
releasing development snapshots directly from trunk from time to time.



Therefore, in order to stick with the odd/even numbering meaning, G7
should have been released immediately as G71 to indicate a dev
version. Not unstable (the code base will remain stable) but a dev
version (testing new features). According to the odd/even numbering
scheme, current trunk should be released as G7.3 and not G7.2 because
it introduces new features.


I think we can possibly release either a series of dev snapshots 7.1.1, 
7.1.2, working towards a stable release 7.2. Or we soon create a 
releasebranch 7.2 and start stabilising that code, declaring a feature 
freeze ASAP and then only ironing out bugs.


Moritz
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-27 Thread Markus Metz
On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Markus Neteler  wrote:
>
> On Feb 25, 2016 5:05 PM, "Vaclav Petras"  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Martin Landa 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of
>>> GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option
>>> about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd numbers
>>> for dev versions. Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> The fact that other OSGeo projects are using it is quite convincing. But
>> anyway, I don't see a point in simply skipping a version number.
>
> Well, we are using 7.1 visibly for so long as unstable/dev version.
> So it sounds perfectly fine to call the result 7.2.

Please be aware that because of many partial backports, relbr70 is 1)
unstable (as was G6.4) and is in some regards less reliable than
trunk. Stable typically means backport only of critical bugxfixes.
Therefore, in order to stick with the odd/even numbering meaning, G7
should have been released immediately as G71 to indicate a dev
version. Not unstable (the code base will remain stable) but a dev
version (testing new features). According to the odd/even numbering
scheme, current trunk should be released as G7.3 and not G7.2 because
it introduces new features.

Markus M
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Newcomb, Doug
+1

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Markus Neteler  wrote:

>
> On Feb 25, 2016 5:05 PM, "Vaclav Petras"  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Martin Landa 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of
> >> GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option
> >> about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd numbers
> >> for dev versions. Martin
> >
> >
> >
> > The fact that other OSGeo projects are using it is quite convincing. But
> anyway, I don't see a point in simply skipping a version number.
>
> Well, we are using 7.1 visibly for so long as unstable/dev version.
> So it sounds perfectly fine to call the result 7.2.
>
> Markus
>
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-- 
Doug Newcomb
USFWS
Raleigh, NC
919-856-4520 ext. 14 doug_newc...@fws.gov
-
The opinions I express are my own and are not representative of the
official policy of the U.S.Fish and Wildlife Service or Dept. of the
Interior.   Life is too short for undocumented, proprietary data formats.
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Markus Neteler
On Feb 25, 2016 5:05 PM, "Vaclav Petras"  wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Martin Landa 
wrote:
>>
>> this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of
>> GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option
>> about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd numbers
>> for dev versions. Martin
>
>
>
> The fact that other OSGeo projects are using it is quite convincing. But
anyway, I don't see a point in simply skipping a version number.

Well, we are using 7.1 visibly for so long as unstable/dev version.
So it sounds perfectly fine to call the result 7.2.

Markus
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Markus Neteler
On Feb 25, 2016 4:01 PM, "Martin Landa"  wrote:
>
> 2016-02-25 15:34 GMT+01:00 Moritz Lennert :
> >> I don't understand this no odd numbers versioning. Please explain.
> >
> >
> >
> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_versioning#Odd-numbered_versions_for_development_releases
>
> this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of
> GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option
> about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd numbers
> for dev versions. Martin

+1

Markus

> --
> Martin Landa
> http://geo.fsv.cvut.cz/gwiki/Landa
> http://gismentors.cz/mentors/landa
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Vaclav Petras
On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:04 PM, Martin Landa 
wrote:

> 2016-02-25 16:37 GMT+01:00 Vaclav Petras :
> > I think we make some promises regarding 7.0 and long term support
> release in
> > the announcements. How this goes together with not planning 7.0.5?
>
> 7.2 will become LTS. Otherwise we would need to maintain 3 branches -
> trunk, releasebranch_7_2 and releasebranch_7_0. Let's try to maintain
> two branches and not more, so trunk and latest release branch. Just 2
> my cents, Martin



The announcements say "As a stable release 7.0 enjoys *long-term support*."
But we don't have any unstable releases (e.g. skipping 7.1) and long-term
support ends as soon as the new release is available, so it may be a year
or two but nothing like Ubuntu LTS. I agree that we should limit the
maintained branches and changes to old branches but we should be clear
about it, so users know what to expect.
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Martin Landa
2016-02-25 16:37 GMT+01:00 Vaclav Petras :
> I think we make some promises regarding 7.0 and long term support release in
> the announcements. How this goes together with not planning 7.0.5?

7.2 will become LTS. Otherwise we would need to maintain 3 branches -
trunk, releasebranch_7_2 and releasebranch_7_0. Let's try to maintain
two branches and not more, so trunk and latest release branch. Just 2
my cents, Martin

-- 
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http://geo.fsv.cvut.cz/gwiki/Landa
http://gismentors.cz/mentors/landa
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Vaclav Petras
On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Martin Landa 
wrote:

> this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of
> GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option
> about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd numbers
> for dev versions. Martin
>


The fact that other OSGeo projects are using it is quite convincing. But
anyway, I don't see a point in simply skipping a version number. I think
Linux kernel was using this odd unstable system in past but they were still
doing the releases with odd numbers.
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Vaclav Petras
On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 9:57 AM, Martin Landa 
wrote:

> 2016-02-25 15:34 GMT+01:00 Moritz Lennert :
> >>  From where are we branching new release? trunk or stable branch? There
> >> was a discussion about it in past. Is there a clear opinion about that
> >> now? I don't have one but I was for branching from trunk in the past.
> >
> > AFAIU trunk, otherwise it might mean a big effort of backporting, or ?
>
> from trunk for sure. So let's say 2 weeks ago RC1 we create
> releasebranch_7_2 from trunk. Then trunk becomes 7.3.svn.  At same
> point I would suggest to freeze completely releasebranch_7_0 since we
> are not planning 7.0.5. The development will continue in trunk and
> backports will be done only for releasebranch_7_2. What do you think?



I think we make some promises regarding 7.0 and long term support release
in the announcements. How this goes together with not planning 7.0.5?
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Luca Delucchi
On 25 February 2016 at 16:00, Martin Landa  wrote:

>
> this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of
> GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option
> about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd numbers
> for dev versions. Martin
>

+1

-- 
ciao
Luca

http://gis.cri.fmach.it/delucchi/
www.lucadelu.org
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Martin Landa
2016-02-25 15:34 GMT+01:00 Moritz Lennert :
>> I don't understand this no odd numbers versioning. Please explain.
>
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_versioning#Odd-numbered_versions_for_development_releases

this system is used also by QGIS, MapServer, moreover it's part of
GRASS history (with one exception - 6.3). I have no strong option
about that. I would say let's follow our tradition to use odd numbers
for dev versions. Martin

-- 
Martin Landa
http://geo.fsv.cvut.cz/gwiki/Landa
http://gismentors.cz/mentors/landa
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Martin Landa
2016-02-25 15:34 GMT+01:00 Moritz Lennert :
>>  From where are we branching new release? trunk or stable branch? There
>> was a discussion about it in past. Is there a clear opinion about that
>> now? I don't have one but I was for branching from trunk in the past.
>
> AFAIU trunk, otherwise it might mean a big effort of backporting, or ?

from trunk for sure. So let's say 2 weeks ago RC1 we create
releasebranch_7_2 from trunk. Then trunk becomes 7.3.svn.  At same
point I would suggest to freeze completely releasebranch_7_0 since we
are not planning 7.0.5. The development will continue in trunk and
backports will be done only for releasebranch_7_2. What do you think?
Martin

-- 
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Moritz Lennert

On 25/02/16 13:50, Vaclav Petras wrote:


On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 1:08 AM, Pietro mailto:peter.z...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Perhaps is time to think to release the next stable release of GRASS
before that the stable release and trunk start to diverge too much...



 From where are we branching new release? trunk or stable branch? There
was a discussion about it in past. Is there a clear opinion about that
now? I don't have one but I was for branching from trunk in the past.


AFAIU trunk, otherwise it might mean a big effort of backporting, or ?

Moritz

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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Moritz Lennert

On 25/02/16 13:45, Vaclav Petras wrote:

Hi,

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Martin Landa mailto:landa.mar...@gmail.com>> wrote:

2016-02-25 8:59 GMT+01:00 Luca Delucchi mailto:lucadel...@gmail.com>>:
> I support this, but I think it should be 7.2 not 7.1. Usually stable
> version is even number
>https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release
> only 6.3 was an exception

then we should probably rename milestone from 7.1. to 7.2 [1]. Ma



What would be the point in skipping the one version? Or why stable and
unstable versions? How many times we did that? Last time we did that was
10 years back. Is it user-friendly? I don't think so.

I don't understand this no odd numbers versioning. Please explain.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_versioning#Odd-numbered_versions_for_development_releases

I don't have a strong opinion either way, as I don't think that this 
scheme is so strong in people's heads that they would be surprised by a 
7.1, it hasn't really been followed much in GRASS' history.


Moritz
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Vaclav Petras
On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 1:08 AM, Pietro  wrote:

>
> Perhaps is time to think to release the next stable release of GRASS
> before that the stable release and trunk start to diverge too much...



>From where are we branching new release? trunk or stable branch? There was
a discussion about it in past. Is there a clear opinion about that now? I
don't have one but I was for branching from trunk in the past.
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Vaclav Petras
Hi,

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Martin Landa 
wrote:

> 2016-02-25 8:59 GMT+01:00 Luca Delucchi :
> > I support this, but I think it should be 7.2 not 7.1. Usually stable
> > version is even number
> > https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release
> > only 6.3 was an exception
>
> then we should probably rename milestone from 7.1. to 7.2 [1]. Ma
>


What would be the point in skipping the one version? Or why stable and
unstable versions? How many times we did that? Last time we did that was 10
years back. Is it user-friendly? I don't think so.

I don't understand this no odd numbers versioning. Please explain. Thanks,
Vaclav
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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Rainer M Krug
Luca Delucchi  writes:

> On 25 February 2016 at 07:08, Pietro  wrote:
>> Dear devs,
>>
>> I saw the discussion on https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/ticket/2750#comment:48
>>
>> Perhaps is time to think to release the next stable release of GRASS
>> before that the stable release and trunk start to diverge too much...
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>
> I support this, but I think it should be 7.2 not 7.1. Usually stable
> version is even number
> https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release
> only 6.3 was an exception

I would very much like to see OS X El Capitan support to return to 7.2.

Any chance of pushing this a bit?

Rainer

>
>> Pietro
>>

-- 
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email: Rainerkrugsde
PGP: 0x0F52F982


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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Martin Landa
2016-02-25 8:59 GMT+01:00 Luca Delucchi :
> I support this, but I think it should be 7.2 not 7.1. Usually stable
> version is even number
> https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release
> only 6.3 was an exception

then we should probably rename milestone from 7.1. to 7.2 [1]. Ma

[1] https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/milestone/7.1.0

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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Martin Landa
Hi,

2016-02-25 8:59 GMT+01:00 Luca Delucchi :
> I support this, but I think it should be 7.2 not 7.1. Usually stable
> version is even number
> https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release
> only 6.3 was an exception

7.0.4 is planned for the end of April a version 7.2. somewhere in the
summer (~June). See [1]. Martin

[1] https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/roadmap

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Re: [GRASS-dev] is it time to release GRASS71?

2016-02-25 Thread Luca Delucchi
On 25 February 2016 at 07:08, Pietro  wrote:
> Dear devs,
>
> I saw the discussion on https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/ticket/2750#comment:48
>
> Perhaps is time to think to release the next stable release of GRASS
> before that the stable release and trunk start to diverge too much...
>
> What do you think?
>

I support this, but I think it should be 7.2 not 7.1. Usually stable
version is even number
https://trac.osgeo.org/grass/wiki/Release
only 6.3 was an exception

> Pietro
>

-- 
ciao
Luca

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