Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
Em 10 de junho de 2010 Allin escreveu: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > > > When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the > > following menu path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the > > decimal point instead of ",". I'm using a Mac with the > > pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's preferences menu, the option "Use > > locale setting for decimal point" is checked. > > The item in the preferences menu is purely concerned with the > display of decimal values. As for exporting data, you should see > the following sequence when you choose "/File/Export data/CSV...": > > 1. A dialog that allows you to select the series for saving. > > 2. Next, a dialog that allows you to choose the data separator > (comma, space, tab, semicolon) and whether or not to include an > observations column. In addition, if you are running gretl in a > non-English locale and have selected the "use locale decimal > character" option, this dialog should also offer a choice of > decimal character. The default is (always) comma-separation and > the decimal dot, but you can choose, e.g., semicolon separation > and the decimal comma if you wish. (The dialog box is "wired up" > such that you cannot choose the comma for both purposes.) > > 3. A dialog box for naming the output file. > > I just checked on Linux using LANG=pt_BR and got the extended > options at step 2 OK. You're not seeing that? > Now I'd realized that the option to choose the decimal character doesn't appear when I try to export data from a session file (.gretl). It only appears when exporting from a data file (.gdt). I think it would be good if we have the option on both situations. Henrique Em 10 de junho de 2010 Allin escreveu: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the > following menu path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the > decimal point instead of ",". I'm using a Mac with the > pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's preferences menu, the option "Use > locale setting for decimal point" is checked. The item in the preferences menu is purely concerned with the display of decimal values. As for exporting data, you should see the following sequence when you choose "/File/Export data/CSV...": 1. A dialog that allows you to select the series for saving. 2. Next, a dialog that allows you to choose the data separator (comma, space, tab, semicolon) and whether or not to include an observations column. In addition, if you are running gretl in a non-English locale and have selected the "use locale decimal character" option, this dialog should also offer a choice of decimal character. The default is (always) comma-separation and the decimal dot, but you can choose, e.g., semicolon separation and the decimal comma if you wish. (The dialog box is "wired up" such that you cannot choose the comma for both purposes.) 3. A dialog box for naming the output file. I just checked on Linux using LANG=pt_BR and got the extended options at step 2 OK. You're not seeing that?Now I'd realized that the option to choose the decimal character doesn't appearwhen I try to export data from a session file (.gretl). It only appears when exporting from a data file (.gdt). I think it would be good if we have the option on both situations.Henrique
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
Am 10.06.2010 15:13, schrieb Alan G Isaac: > > > Again, why is the question not rather: > where is the documentation of this file format? > It seems to me that gretl should > > - point to or provide documentation > - read and write the documented format by default (in *all* locales) > - possibly but not necessarily allow user over-rides of the defaults > > CSV should be a file format. That there are other similar > text formats that sometimes are given the .csv extension is > unfortunate but irrelevant. > Alan, not sure if it will answer all your needs, but have you checked out section I.4.4 of the manual? cheers, sven
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Allin Cottrell wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > >> When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the >> following menu path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the >> decimal point instead of ",". I'm using a Mac with the >> pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's preferences menu, the option "Use >> locale setting for decimal point" is checked. > > The item in the preferences menu is purely concerned with the > display of decimal values. As for exporting data, you should see > the following sequence when you choose "/File/Export data/CSV...": [...] Ah, ok, I wasn't aware of that (I always run gretl in English). My point is moot, then. I concede defeat. :-) Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti Dipartimento di Economia Università Politecnica delle Marche r.lucchetti(a)univpm.it http://www.econ.univpm.it/lucchetti
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Sven Schreiber wrote: > Am 10.06.2010 10:33, schrieb Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti: >> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Sven Schreiber wrote: >> >>> CSV files nowadays aren't even necessarily "comma-separated" and are >>> surely *not* intended by many users to be portable across countries. >>> (Even though that might be nice, but it just isn't the case.) >> >> Says who? >> > > well for example when you save an OpenOffice Spreadsheet file to > "text/csv" then the currently set decimal separator (usually from the > locale) is used. Obviously not portable. > > Now you may say that's exactly the problem with Office-like programs, > and maybe it's because OOo imitates MS Office too much, but that would > kind of miss the point. The point is that CSV is not standardized enough > to warrant the assumption that the decimal separator is the dot. Then > the question is: does gretl want to enforce a non-existent standard > because we (including me) like that behavior; or does gretl surrender to > the facts of the csv ecosystem and give users the option to produce > different variants of csv files. > > Ok, I think I made my point, personally I don't really care that much > (even if it sounded otherwise), so I will stop pushing this. I see your point. If a "standard" is only a nominal one, it's no standard at all, I agree. Maybe it's just me, but if we give in to a spreadsheet-like convention (which I don't like at all anyway), then we'd have to support national separators when _importing_ CSV files too, which would make the code for CSV import even more intricate and forgiving than it is now (and believe me, it is). Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti Dipartimento di Economia Università Politecnica delle Marche r.lucchetti(a)univpm.it http://www.econ.univpm.it/lucchetti
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
Am 10.06.2010 10:33, schrieb Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Sven Schreiber wrote: > >> CSV files nowadays aren't even necessarily "comma-separated" and are >> surely *not* intended by many users to be portable across countries. >> (Even though that might be nice, but it just isn't the case.) > > Says who? > well for example when you save an OpenOffice Spreadsheet file to "text/csv" then the currently set decimal separator (usually from the locale) is used. Obviously not portable. Now you may say that's exactly the problem with Office-like programs, and maybe it's because OOo imitates MS Office too much, but that would kind of miss the point. The point is that CSV is not standardized enough to warrant the assumption that the decimal separator is the dot. Then the question is: does gretl want to enforce a non-existent standard because we (including me) like that behavior; or does gretl surrender to the facts of the csv ecosystem and give users the option to produce different variants of csv files. Ok, I think I made my point, personally I don't really care that much (even if it sounded otherwise), so I will stop pushing this. cheers, sven
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
Em 10 de junho de 2010 Allin escreveu: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > > > When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the > > following menu path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the > > decimal point instead of ",". I'm using a Mac with the > > pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's preferences menu, the option "Use > > locale setting for decimal point" is checked. > > The item in the preferences menu is purely concerned with the > display of decimal values. As for exporting data, you should see > the following sequence when you choose "/File/Export data/CSV...": > > 1. A dialog that allows you to select the series for saving. > > 2. Next, a dialog that allows you to choose the data separator > (comma, space, tab, semicolon) and whether or not to include an > observations column. In addition, if you are running gretl in a > non-English locale and have selected the "use locale decimal > character" option, this dialog should also offer a choice of > decimal character. The default is (always) comma-separation and > the decimal dot, but you can choose, e.g., semicolon separation > and the decimal comma if you wish. (The dialog box is "wired up" > such that you cannot choose the comma for both purposes.) > > 3. A dialog box for naming the output file. > > I just checked on Linux using LANG=pt_BR and got the extended > options at step 2 OK. You're not seeing that? > Dear Allin, sorry for my distraction :( Now I am seeing the options and the generated files are according to my locale settings.Thanks for this! And thank you guys for your attention! Best, Henrique Em 10 de junho de 2010 Allin escreveu:On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the > following menu path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the > decimal point instead of ",". I'm using a Mac with the > pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's preferences menu, the option "Use > locale setting for decimal point" is checked. The item in the preferences menu is purely concerned with the display of decimal values. As for exporting data, you should see the following sequence when you choose "/File/Export data/CSV...": 1. A dialog that allows you to select the series for saving. 2. Next, a dialog that allows you to choose the data separator (comma, space, tab, semicolon) and whether or not to include an observations column. In addition, if you are running gretl in a non-English locale and have selected the "use locale decimal character" option, this dialog should also offer a choice of decimal character. The default is (always) comma-separation and the decimal dot, but you can choose, e.g., semicolon separation and the decimal comma if you wish. (The dialog box is "wired up" such that you cannot choose the comma for both purposes.) 3. A dialog box for naming the output file. I just checked on Linux using LANG=pt_BR and got the extended options at step 2 OK. You're not seeing that?Dear Allin, sorry for my distraction :( Now I am seeing the options andthe generated files are according to my locale settings.Thanks for this! And thank you guys for your attention!Best,Henrique
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Sven Schreiber wrote: > CSV files nowadays aren't even necessarily "comma-separated" and are > surely *not* intended by many users to be portable across countries. > (Even though that might be nice, but it just isn't the case.) Says who? Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti Dipartimento di Economia Università Politecnica delle Marche r.lucchetti(a)univpm.it http://www.econ.univpm.it/lucchetti
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
> Am 10.06.2010 15:13, schrieb Alan G Isaac: > > Again, why is the question not rather: > > where is the documentation of this file format? > > It seems to me that gretl should > > > > - point to or provide documentation > > - read and write the documented format by default (in *all* locales) > > - possibly but not necessarily allow user over-rides of the defaults > > > > CSV should be a file format. That there are other similar > > text formats that sometimes are given the .csv extension is > > unfortunate but irrelevant. On 6/10/2010 9:40 AM, Sven Schreiber wrote: > not sure if it will answer all your needs, but have you checked > out section I.4.4 of the manual? Imo, this does not constitute documentation of a file format. E.g., "CSV files can use comma, space or tab as the column separator. When you use the “Import CSV” menu item you are prompted to specify the separator." An example of a file format specification would be: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4180.txt So for example, gretl could point to this and say it makes two changes from this RFC: - blank lines are ignored - lines beginning with a hash are ignored I do not see how science can be done reliably if we do not know the file formats we are working with. Alan
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
Am 10.06.2010 08:30, schrieb Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > >> Dear Gretl community, >> >> When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the following >> menu path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the decimal point >> instead of ",". I'm using a Mac with the pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's >> preferences menu, the option "Use locale setting for decimal point" is >> checked. >> >> How can I fix this behavior? > > Define "fix". IMHO, CSV files should only use the dot as decimal > separator, in the interest of portability across countries. I am aware > that not everyone agrees with me on this, one notable case being ISTAT, > the Italian Statistical Institute (which I find very annoying). But if > the Academy of Science of Berzerkistan decided to use "@" as the decimal > separator, you would still find it mildly funny to open a CSV file > coming from your Berzerki co-author, full of gems like 1(a)234. Personally I use the comma less and less, and so in principle I sympathize with jack, but hypothetical examples aside, I think that since gretl does l10n and i18n or whatever, it should respect the user settings for csv export as well. CSV files nowadays aren't even necessarily "comma-separated" and are surely *not* intended by many users to be portable across countries. (Even though that might be nice, but it just isn't the case.) > > The preferences checkbox is there to ensure that, as a proud citizen of > your home country, you don't have a fit any time you see a dot instead > of a comma and are reminded of how evil Anglo-Saxon cultural imperialism > is. So it's supposed to give you a fit instead when you realize all those apparent commas were just Fata Morganas and when it get's "real" the saved file still has the evil dots? Just kidding. -sven
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > Define "change": > If I have a .csv formatted according to Brazilian settings (i.e. "," as the > decimal > point) I can use double-clicking to open my data using Excel. Otherwise I > need to > open the .csv file in a text editor and replace all "." with "," before go to > Excel. No, you don't. I believe that Windows has some configuration setting called "International Options" or something like that (it used to be in the Control Panel in XP). > IMHO, CSV files should only use the dot as decimal separator, in the > interest of portability across countries. I am aware that not everyone > agrees with me on this, one notable case being ISTAT, the Italian > Statistical Institute (which I find very annoying). But if the Academy > of Science of Berzerkistan decided to use "@" as the decimal separator, > you would still find it mildly funny to open a CSV file coming from your > Berzerki co-author, full of gems like 1(a)234. > > > I think the portability is guaranteed by the .gdt file. Not really. gdt files are ok for people who use gretl, or don't mind about xml. The CSV format is supposed to be universal. > It would be great (at least for me) if Gretl gives me the option to > export data into .csv Brazilian formatted data. While I am against this on ideological grounds, I have to admit that a checkbox wouldn't be difficult to add. But I hate the idea of giving support or credibility to the concept of "national CSV" format, which is, after all, one of the many ways Microsoft has polluted the environment: I am not aware of any application other than Excel (or Excel derivatives) that considers a "national CSV" file as a valid CSV file (the "C" in CSV is there for a reason). > The preferences checkbox is there to ensure that, as a proud citizen of > your home country, you don't have a fit any time you see a dot instead > of a comma and are reminded of how evil Anglo-Saxon cultural imperialism > is. > > > I admire and respect United States a lot ;-) :-D Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti Dipartimento di Economia Università Politecnica delle Marche r.lucchetti(a)univpm.it http://www.econ.univpm.it/lucchetti
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
On 6/10/2010 7:04 AM, Sven Schreiber wrote: > the question is: does gretl want to enforce a non-existent standard > because we (including me) like that behavior; or does gretl surrender to > the facts of the csv ecosystem and give users the option to produce > different variants of csv files. > Again, why is the question not rather: where is the documentation of this file format? It seems to me that gretl should - point to or provide documentation - read and write the documented format by default (in *all* locales) - possibly but not necessarily allow user over-rides of the defaults CSV should be a file format. That there are other similar text formats that sometimes are given the .csv extension is unfortunate but irrelevant. Alan Isaac
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > Dear Gretl community, > > When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the following menu > path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the decimal point instead > of ",". I'm using a Mac with the pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's preferences > menu, the option "Use locale setting for decimal point" is checked. > > How can I fix this behavior? Define "fix". IMHO, CSV files should only use the dot as decimal separator, in the interest of portability across countries. I am aware that not everyone agrees with me on this, one notable case being ISTAT, the Italian Statistical Institute (which I find very annoying). But if the Academy of Science of Berzerkistan decided to use "@" as the decimal separator, you would still find it mildly funny to open a CSV file coming from your Berzerki co-author, full of gems like 1(a)234. The preferences checkbox is there to ensure that, as a proud citizen of your home country, you don't have a fit any time you see a dot instead of a comma and are reminded of how evil Anglo-Saxon cultural imperialism is. Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti Dipartimento di Economia Università Politecnica delle Marche r.lucchetti(a)univpm.it http://www.econ.univpm.it/lucchetti
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Sven Schreiber wrote: > > > Am 10.06.2010 10:33, schrieb Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti: > >> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Sven Schreiber wrote: > >> > >>> CSV files nowadays aren't even necessarily "comma-separated" and are > >>> surely *not* intended by many users to be portable across countries. > >>> (Even though that might be nice, but it just isn't the case.) > >> > >> Says who? > > > > well for example when you save an OpenOffice Spreadsheet file to > > "text/csv" then the currently set decimal separator (usually from the > > locale) is used. Obviously not portable. > > > > Now you may say that's exactly the problem with Office-like programs, > > and maybe it's because OOo imitates MS Office too much, but that would > > kind of miss the point. The point is that CSV is not standardized enough > > to warrant the assumption that the decimal separator is the dot. Then > > the question is: does gretl want to enforce a non-existent standard > > because we (including me) like that behavior; or does gretl surrender to > > the facts of the csv ecosystem and give users the option to produce > > different variants of csv files. > > > > Ok, I think I made my point, personally I don't really care that much > > (even if it sounded otherwise), so I will stop pushing this. > > I see your point. If a "standard" is only a nominal one, it's no standard > at all, I agree. Maybe it's just me, but if we give in to a > spreadsheet-like convention (which I don't like at all anyway), then we'd > have to support national separators when _importing_ CSV files too, which > would make the code for CSV import even more intricate and forgiving than > it is now (and believe me, it is). It's even more intricate than you think ;-) We do support variant separators when importing "text/CSV". E.g. semicolon separated columns and decimal commas are not a problem. Allin
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the > following menu path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the > decimal point instead of ",". I'm using a Mac with the > pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's preferences menu, the option "Use > locale setting for decimal point" is checked. The item in the preferences menu is purely concerned with the display of decimal values. As for exporting data, you should see the following sequence when you choose "/File/Export data/CSV...": 1. A dialog that allows you to select the series for saving. 2. Next, a dialog that allows you to choose the data separator (comma, space, tab, semicolon) and whether or not to include an observations column. In addition, if you are running gretl in a non-English locale and have selected the "use locale decimal character" option, this dialog should also offer a choice of decimal character. The default is (always) comma-separation and the decimal dot, but you can choose, e.g., semicolon separation and the decimal comma if you wish. (The dialog box is "wired up" such that you cannot choose the comma for both purposes.) 3. A dialog box for naming the output file. I just checked on Linux using LANG=pt_BR and got the extended options at step 2 OK. You're not seeing that? Allin Cottrell
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
On 6/10/2010 3:35 AM, Riccardo (Jack) Lucchetti wrote: > While I am against this on ideological grounds, I have to admit that a > checkbox wouldn't be difficult to add. But I hate the idea of giving > support or credibility to the concept of "national CSV" format, which > is, after all, one of the many ways Microsoft has polluted the > environment: I am not aware of any application other than Excel (or > Excel derivatives) that considers a "national CSV" file as a valid CSV > file (the "C" in CSV is there for a reason). Pursuing this, if gretl is going to read and write a *file format*, that format should be documented. How exactly will this documentation read, unless there is going to be some kind of header for overriding the comma in *comma* separated values. Related: Much more important that allowing an override of what is becoming an **international** convention for **scientific** data (see earlier emails) is allowing for comment lines in a CSV file. But again, please make sure there is reference documentation. Cheers, Alan Isaac
Re: [Gretl-users] Export data & Decimal point
Dear Riccardo, thanks for your answer! Em 10 de junho de 2010 Riccardo escreveu: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: > > Dear Gretl community, >> >> When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the following menu >> path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the decimal point instead of >> ",". I'm using a Mac with the pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's preferences menu, >> the option "Use locale setting for decimal point" is checked. >> >> How can I fix this behavior? >> > > Define "fix". Sorry for my poor English... Please replace "Fix" by "Change". So, now we have: Define "change": If I have a .csv formatted according to Brazilian settings (i.e. "," as the decimal point) I can use double-clicking to open my data using Excel. Otherwise I need to open the .csv file in a text editor and replace all "." with "," before go to Excel. IMHO, CSV files should only use the dot as decimal separator, in the > interest of portability across countries. I am aware that not everyone > agrees with me on this, one notable case being ISTAT, the Italian > Statistical Institute (which I find very annoying). But if the Academy of > Science of Berzerkistan decided to use "@" as the decimal separator, you > would still find it mildly funny to open a CSV file coming from your > Berzerki co-author, full of gems like 1(a)234. I think the portability is guaranteed by the .gdt file. It would be great (at least for me) if Gretl gives me the option to export data into .csv Brazilian formatted data. The preferences checkbox is there to ensure that, as a proud citizen of your > home country, you don't have a fit any time you see a dot instead of a comma > and are reminded of how evil Anglo-Saxon cultural imperialism is. > I admire and respect United States a lot ;-) Um abraço, Henrique Dear Riccardo, thanks for your answer!Em 10 de junho de 2010 Riccardo escreveu: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Henrique Andrade wrote: Dear Gretl community, When I try to export some data to a .csv file (using the following menu path File -> Export data -> CSV) I get "." as the decimal point instead of ",". I'm using a Mac with the pt_BR.UTF-8. In the Gretl's preferences menu, the option "Use locale setting for decimal point" is checked. How can I fix this behavior? Define "fix".Sorry for my poor English... Please replace "Fix" by "Change". So, now we have:Define "change":If I have a .csv formatted according to Brazilian settings (i.e. "," as the decimal point) I can use double-clicking to open my data using Excel. Otherwise I need to open the .csv file in a text editor and replace all "." with "," before go to Excel. IMHO, CSV files should only use the dot as decimal separator, in the interest of portability across countries. I am aware that not everyone agrees with me on this, one notable case being ISTAT, the Italian Statistical Institute (which I find very annoying). But if the Academy of Science of Berzerkistan decided to use "@" as the decimal separator, you would still find it mildly funny to open a CSV file coming from your Berzerki co-author, full of gems like 1@234. I think the portability is guaranteed by the .gdt file. It would be great (at least for me) if Gretl gives me the option to export data into .csv Brazilian formatted data. The preferences checkbox is there to ensure that, as a proud citizen of your home country, you don't have a fit any time you see a dot instead of a comma and are reminded of how evil Anglo-Saxon cultural imperialism is. I admire and respect United States a lot ;-) Um abraço,Henrique
