Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Mikhail Kryshen]

Ludovic Courtès  writes:

> Hi Mikhail,
>
> Mikhail Kryshen  skribis:
>
>> I'm deeply disappointed to see this.  I always thought that the free
>> software community have strong and independent culture, and it's very
>> sad to see GNU maintainers, for whose work I have great respect, fall
>> for the moral panic that is being spread by news and social media
>
> [...]
>
>> This leads to dissolution of the free software culture and its
>> ethical values with the influence of media and corporations that are
>> hostile towards software freedom.
>
> I respectfully think that your interpretation is incorrect.
>
> Keep in mind that each of the signatories has typically more than 10
> years of experience as developer or maintainer of GNU (more than that
> for some.)  They have dedicated a large part of their life to that, and
> they have worked a lot with GNU and RMS.  So it really isn’t about what
> “the media” said last week or the week before.

Is it true then, that you intentionally and knowingly tried to take
advantage of the dishonest media attack on RMS and of its consequences?
Otherwise, how else would you explain the timing of your action?  For
now I'd rather stick to my interpretation of you acting under moral
panic, as it is the least bad one.

> Perhaps you find our decision hard to understand, or perhaps you
> disagree with it, but remember that we have a different perspective.
>
> RMS created GNU, but GNU has long expanded beyond RMS, and free software
> has expanded way beyond GNU, too.  We must keep it striving and reach
> out to those who’ve not yet joined us to share the software!

I share your values, I too want our community to be welcoming, inclusive
and harassment-free.  The problem is not with the values you are trying
to defend, but with your methods.  First the introduction of CoC and
then publication of the statement promoted fear, tension and hatred in
the community, alienated potential users and contributors, gave further
rise to moral panics (both "SJW" and anti-SJW, as you can see in the
discussions that followed) and made us more vulnerable to hostile
manipulation, as people under any moral panic are easily weaponized
against others (this is being widely used in politics all over the
world).

For a year now I've been promoting Guix at my university, and I'm
supporting it on close to a hundred of workstations there, it's too late
to back out, but I would not have started it today and probably would
have restrained myself to only using Guix on my own computer just for
technical curiosity, because my confidence in the future of GNU and Guix
is shaken, and the community does not look welcoming any more.

--
Mikhail


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Re: [External] Re: New outreachy participant introduction

[Asfaw, Nardos]

Thank you Zimon. 

This has been very helpful. 

From: zimoun 
Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2019 9:24 AM
To: Christopher Baines
Cc: Asfaw, Nardos; Guix Devel
Subject: Re: [External] Re: New outreachy participant introduction

Hi Nardos,

Welcome ! :-)


On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 at 08:48, Christopher Baines  wrote:

> One good starting point would be an importer, there are a set of
> importers included in Guix that take a package definition from somewhere
> else (like the Python package index, or Rubygems) and try to generate a
> Guix package definition. If you're familiar with some packages from one
> of the collections with a corresponding importer, that might be a good
> place to start.

As an example, let consider packages from BioConductor [1] (mainly R
packages used in bioinformatics field). If I have right, then 2002
packages are still missing in Guix, so there is materials. ;-)

Well, let's pick one which is not packaged yet: zinbwave [2]. Then it is easy:

  guix import cran -r -a bioconductor zinbwave

This will download TAR archives and automatically compute the hash. It
corresponds to the manual:

  guix download
https://bioconductor.org/packages/release/bioc/src/contrib/zinbwave_1.6.0.tar.gz


[1] https://bioconductor.org/
[2] https://bioconductor.org/packages/release/bioc/html/zinbwave.html


Moreover, the importer provides the definition of the package:

--8<---cut here---start->8---
(define-public r-zinbwave
  (package
(name "r-zinbwave")
(version "1.6.0")
(source
  (origin
(method url-fetch)
(uri (bioconductor-uri "zinbwave" version))
(sha256
  (base32
"187r7l9jf2q74qaqx63df5zx6iphmvl817448balvfv9vqyhrp2j"
(properties `((upstream-name . "zinbwave")))
(build-system r-build-system)
(propagated-inputs
  `(("r-biocparallel" ,r-biocparallel)
("r-copula" ,r-copula)
("r-edger" ,r-edger)
("r-genefilter" ,r-genefilter)
("r-glmnet" ,r-glmnet)
("r-matrix" ,r-matrix)
("r-singlecellexperiment"
 ,r-singlecellexperiment)
("r-softimpute" ,r-softimpute)
("r-summarizedexperiment"
 ,r-summarizedexperiment)))
(home-page
  "https://bioconductor.org/packages/zinbwave";)
(synopsis
  "Zero-Inflated Negative Binomial Model for RNA-Seq Data")
(description
  " Implements a general and flexible zero-inflated negative
binomial model that can be used to provide a low-dimensional
representations of single-cell RNA-seq data.  The model accounts for
zero inflation (dropouts), over-dispersion, and the count nature of
the data.  The model also accounts for the difference in library sizes
and optionally for batch effects and/or other covariates, avoiding the
need for pre-normalize the data.")
(license artistic2.0)))
--8<---cut here---end--->8---

In the propagated input, you can see the package `r-copula` which is
not yet packaged neither. But, the nice option --recursive does the
job for you and it also gives you the package definition.

Now, let add them to the Guix source. Clone the repo and go in the
folder. The command:

  guix environment guix

will download the dependencies to build Guix and setup all the
variables correctly. Well, refer to the documentation to compile Guix
from source. Basically:

  ./bootstrap
  ./configure --localstatedir=/var
  make

Now, you can run this version with ./pre-inst-env, for example:

   ./pre-inst-env guix describe


Well, ready to add one package! For example, add `r-copula` to the
file gnu/package/cran.scm then recompile with make. Check if it is ok:

  ./pre-inst-env guile show r-copula

Ouch! `r-psline` is missing so let also add it (the definition was
provided by the importer), run make again. Now "./pre-inst-env guix
show r-copula" should work.
Add the package definition of zinbwave to the file gnu/package/bioconductor.scm.

Let build them:

  ./pre-inst-env guix build r-zinbwave

and time to breath. ;-)


If something fails, try to investigate by yourself and do not hesitate
to ask advices or help.
If everything is ok, the package still needs some polishing: synopsis,
description, indentation, etc and really important: check the license
field.

The next step is to commit the changes. In this case, three commits
(one per package) seem nice. Give a look to previous commits as
example of commit message (ChangeLog format, etc.). Now, it is time to
prepare the submission:

  git format-patch --cover-letter - o patches master

this will create the 3 patches in the folder patches/ and one cover
letter. Edit the cover letter to describe what the patches are about
then submit it to the bug tracker:

  git send-email --to=guix-patc...@gnu.org patches/-cover-letter.patch

Wait the answer to the bug tracker.
You should receive an email (if your .gitconfig is ok) with the bug
number. Last submit the p

Re: moderation, please

[Jesse Gibbons]

On Sun, 2019-10-13 at 00:32 +0200, František Kučera wrote:
> Dne 13. 10. 19 v 0:16 Jesse Gibbons napsal(a):
> > When all 50+ new messages in this list from the past hour are off-topic, 
> > it
> > is too much.
> 
> 1) That statement is still present on the official Guix blog and thus
> this discussion is relevant.
> 
> 2) I honestly can not imagine how any mailing list could be useful in a
> e-mail client without thread support and filtering. So I expect that you
> use such client (and according to the MIME headers you use Evolution, so
> you are fine). And then: marking the whole thread with 50 messages as
> read is the same effort as marking a single message as read.
> 
> Franta


Evolution has a filter feature that doesn't work like it should, otherwise
the entire thread would have automatically been marked as read and moved to
a junk folder after I added the filter rule on Wednesday.

When I see 50 new unread mail from this mailing list, I think it is
reasonable to hope at least one of them is about developing guix.

Re: moderation, please

[František Kučera]

Dne 13. 10. 19 v 0:16 Jesse Gibbons napsal(a):
> When all 50+ new messages in this list from the past hour are off-topic, it
> is too much.

1) That statement is still present on the official Guix blog and thus
this discussion is relevant.

2) I honestly can not imagine how any mailing list could be useful in a
e-mail client without thread support and filtering. So I expect that you
use such client (and according to the MIME headers you use Evolution, so
you are fine). And then: marking the whole thread with 50 messages as
read is the same effort as marking a single message as read.

Franta

Re: [FOSDEM] FOSDEM 2020 Minimalistic, Experimental and Emerging Languages Devroom CfP

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello!

Manolis Ragkousis  skribis:

> We are excited to announce a devroom on minimalistic, experimental
> and/or emerging languages (with big ideas) at FOSDEM on Sunday
> February 2nd 2020!

Woohoo!

Thank you Manolis, Pjotr, and everyone who makes it possible once again!

Ludo’.

Re: moderation, please

[Jesse Gibbons]

On Sun, 2019-10-13 at 00:04 +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> ng0  wrote:
> > this list is to discuss the _development_ of GNU Guix, Shepherd, and
> > Guix System.
> > 
> > It is not a general discussion list for everything else.
> > 
> > While we usually get by fine without imposing moderation restrictions, I
> > don't see how any of the recent message floods have been ontopic to this
> > list
> 
> Yes, indeed, though I cannot imagine, how an offtopic limited to few
> threads can hurt any person minimally capable of using a MUA.
> 
> > (other than the original announcement of the blog post
> 
> Indeed?
> 
> > If it isn't already on moderation for some people, it would be very kind
> > to do so as numerous active people asked for this (and the people in
> > question are on record not willing to stop the messages).
> 
> Anyway, ‘to stop’ is the most unconstructive proposal, it never works.  If
> you can name a better mailing list, please do so.  E. g., @a...@gnu.org
> believes for some reason, than otherwise pretty dead gnu-system-
> disc...@gnu.org is not suitable for discussion of the future of GNU system
> in the light of recent events either.

Try moving it to irc or matrix. There should already be plenty of rooms
related to the future of the GNU project on freenode, or you could start
something new.

When all 50+ new messages in this list from the past hour are off-topic, it
is too much.

Re: 'core-updates' Q4 2019

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello Kei,

Kei Kebreau  skribis:

> I have the GNOME 3.32 branch! I'm building it on top of the new
> core-updates as you read this message. If everything still builds, I'll
> immediately send my changes to the guix-patches mailing list for review
> and testing.

Shouldn’t you instead base it on ‘master’ or ‘staging’?

That may allow us to merge it more quickly, especially if these are only
GNOME-related changes.

Thanks for working on it!

Ludo’.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Alexander Vdolainen]

On 10/12/19 9:43 PM, Taylan Kammer wrote:
> On 12.10.2019 01:04, Jelle Licht wrote:
>> Taylan Kammer  writes:
>>
>>> [snip]
(skipped)
> 
> Going by this logic, we could ban support of communism based on things
> done by the Soviet or things currently done by the People's Republic of
> China or North Korea.
just to be more detailed - it's not a pure communism, it's some form of
communism-based authoritarian way. (btw, communism sucks anyway)
> 
> There are many religious people who think homosexuality is "wrong" but
> strongly disagree with violence, and rather feel "worried for" gay
> people who they also try to treat with love.  I think they are very
> wrong about homosexuality, but I find it commendable that they don't
> tolerate violence, and could not in good conscience call them evil and
> request them to be silenced.  In fact, I would not enjoy contributing to
> a community that does so.
I'm not religious one, however I suppose homosexuality is wrong (or it's
some kind of disease to limit population with malformed genes). BUT, I
will *never* oppose them just because they are wrong some kind.
Moreover, I do *not* care about it. And I do *not* support any movement
against homosexuality. BUT, I do *not* support any movement supporting
this, especially those who are using dirty methods such as we can
observe right now (against RMS I mean), and going further - those
methods are going to looks like a pure fascism against normal people.
> 
> IMO the tabooing of world views based on harms they may cause, or harms
> they do cause in various parts of the world, is a slippery slope.
> Almost every ideology has peaceful moderates and militant extremists.
> 
> The GNU project should publish a list of ideologies that are officially
> banned from its channels so people know what they're in for.  All other
> topics should be treated neutrally so long as nobody is using slurs or a
> bullying attitude.  Codes of conduct should clarify whether a rule such
> as "no homophobia" simply means no homophobic slurs/bullying, or whether
> it means that certain ideologies are banned and others favored.
GNU is a technical community - and as a community shouldn't care about
someone's politics view or homosexuality. It should be neutral for such
things.
> 
> 
> (I've been using religion and homophobia as an arbitrary example.
> Should anyone feel upset by this choice of example, please tell me in
> private or otherwise so I can switch to another example.  Although I
> don't wish to write much more on this off-topic topic...)
> 
> 
> - Taylan
> 

-- 
Alexander Vdolainen,
Evil contractor.



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Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[František Kučera]

Throughout this discussion I see some implicit assumption that „feminism
= women will like it“. But actually: not all women are feminists.

Franta

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Ricardo Wurmus]

P  writes:

> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 7:09 PM,  wrote:
>
>> Can everyone move this discussion elsewhere? Seeing that this is not
>> related to the GNU system or Guix.
>
> I resisted replying for a few days, hoping that the moderators would
> lock people like Louis out and the thread down, but as that didn't
> happen, I didn't want to let them run free with their reactionary b.s.

It’s difficult to put out fires everywhere at once, especially when list
moderation is nowhere near the highest priority in my life at this point
in time.

There’s been a little hiccup with moderation (which had been in place
temporarily).  Please report problems like this to
guix-maintain...@gnu.org and try to not engage with obvious trolls in
the meantime.

--
Ricardo

Reminder about discussions on this list

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Wilson and P,

this is not a discussion for guix-devel.  Please don’t continue it on
this list.

Please also note that the aggression demonstrated in your exchange is
not what we want to see in our community.  If you take this elsewhere
please remember to allow for some time to cool off before responding to
a message that frustrates you.

--
Ricardo

Re: “do not add my address as an explicit recipient” (was: Joint statement on the GNU Project)

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

František Kučera  wrote:
> P.S. technical note to all: please do not add my address as an explicit 
> recipient – it is superfluous – just respond to the mailing list and I will 
> get your e-mail.

I beg my pardon.  Even if we put aside, that this is bad practice that harms 
readability and searchability of mailing lists, how do suppose everyone to 
follow that request — by keeping it in mind or what?

If you are insisting on it, at least try to formalize it: set ‘Mail-Copies-To’ 
header to ‘never’ and configure your useragent to insert ‘Mail-Followup-To’ 
that does not include your address (afair, Thunderbird is capable doing it 
properly).


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Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) wrote:
Taylan Kammer  wrote:
>> The GNU project should publish a list of ideologies that are officially 
>> banned from its channels so people know what they're in for.  All other 
>> topics should be treated neutrally so long as nobody is using slurs or a 
>> bullying attitude.  Codes of conduct should clarify whether a rule such as 
>> "no homophobia" simply means no homophobic slurs/bullying, or whether it 
>> means that certain ideologies are banned and others favored.
>
> Can everyone move this discussion elsewhere?

Where?

> Seeing that this is not related to the GNU system or Guix.

Institution of ideological censorship in GNU project is pretty heavily related 
to the future of GNU system.


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Re: moderation, please

[Dmitry Alexandrov]

ng0  wrote:
> this list is to discuss the _development_ of GNU Guix, Shepherd, and Guix 
> System.
>
> It is not a general discussion list for everything else.
>
> While we usually get by fine without imposing moderation restrictions, I 
> don't see how any of the recent message floods have been ontopic to this list

Yes, indeed, though I cannot imagine, how an offtopic limited to few threads 
can hurt any person minimally capable of using a MUA.

> (other than the original announcement of the blog post

Indeed?

> If it isn't already on moderation for some people, it would be very kind to 
> do so as numerous active people asked for this (and the people in question 
> are on record not willing to stop the messages).

Anyway, ‘to stop’ is the most unconstructive proposal, it never works.  If you 
can name a better mailing list, please do so.  E. g., @a...@gnu.org believes 
for some reason, than otherwise pretty dead gnu-system-disc...@gnu.org is not 
suitable for discussion of the future of GNU system in the light of recent 
events either.


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Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[František Kučera]

Dne 12. 10. 19 v 21:28 Wilson Bustos napsal(a):
> How the normal language make women be a second-class citizens?
>
> That is ridiculous!

+1

BTW: In Czech language we have a word „osoba“ which means a „person“.
And „osoba“ is grammatically feminine (she) but denotes both men and
women. And – it might surprise many here – but: no one complains.

Franta

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[František Kučera]

Dne 12. 10. 19 v 21:24 P napsal(a):
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 7:04 PM, Wilson Bustos
>  wrote:
>
>> >> Language changes. Get over it.
>>
>> Actually the spanish language has not changed in that sent.
>> No one talks in 'political correctness spanish' or in 'feminist spanish'.
>> So you are not writing spanish itself, just a modified version pushed
>> by political agenda.
>> All the best =)
> And that modified version is better

This is your opinion. But it is totally irrelevant to free software. Is
it better to drive on the right side of the road or on the left side? Is
better Jerry Lee Lewis or Elvis Presley? Do you like cats or dogs? Yes,
people have opinions, it is OK. But please, do not disturb the free
software cooperation with your efforts to convince others of your
„truth“. Developing free software is a great goal in itself.

If you are still not sure what free software is, please ask Richard
Stallman who defined this term.

Franta

P.S. technical note to all: please do not add my address as an explicit
recipient – it is superfluous – just respond to the mailing list and I
will get your e-mail.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 08:54:14PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> Richard is guilty of what? Flirting? Pleasure Cards? Hahhahahahahahha.
> 
> Jean
> 

IMHO this is an important reason.

On Medium in her blog post, Selam G. referenced a report by MIT women
from 1983.  In Chapter 3 it says (please excude any typos of mine):

> 3.1 First a Woman, Then a Professional
> 
> · Do not make inappropriate personal remarks to or about women in
>   professional situations.
> 
>   - Never make demeaning remarks, such as “come sit on my lap
> sometime…”, in professional situations.
> 
>   - Do not use sexist humor to “spice up a dull subject…” or make
> disparaging comments about women as a group.
> 
>   - Do not allow a discussion of a female student’s work to be turned
> into a discussion of her physical attributes or appearance.  In
> general, do not make more references to women’s appearances or
> personal lives than to men’s appearances or personal lives.
> 
>  · […]
> 
>  · Faculty members should be careful in approaching female students as
>dates to avoid putting the women in untenable positions.  The role
>as potential date must not supersede the professional and academic
>roles.

Regards,
Florian

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Wilson Bustos]

How the normal language make women be a second-class citizens?

That is ridiculous!

Regards

El sáb., 12 oct. 2019 a las 16:24, P () escribió:

> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 7:04 PM, Wilson Bustos 
> wrote:
>
> >> Language changes. Get over it.
>
> Actually the spanish language has not changed in that sent.
> No one talks in 'political correctness spanish' or in 'feminist spanish'.
> So you are not writing spanish itself, just a modified version pushed by
> political agenda.
> All the best =)
>
> And that modified version is better, since it doesn't make women
> second-class citizens.
> Bye
>
>

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 7:09 PM,  wrote:

> Can everyone move this discussion elsewhere? Seeing that this is not
> related to the GNU system or Guix.

I resisted replying for a few days, hoping that the moderators would lock 
people like Louis out and the thread down, but as that didn't happen, I didn't 
want to let them run free with their reactionary b.s.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 7:04 PM, Wilson Bustos  wrote:

>>> Language changes. Get over it.
>
> Actually the spanish language has not changed in that sent.
> No one talks in 'political correctness spanish' or in 'feminist spanish'.
> So you are not writing spanish itself, just a modified version pushed by 
> political agenda.
> All the best =)

And that modified version is better, since it doesn't make women second-class 
citizens.
Bye

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 6:54 PM, Jean Louis  wrote:

> No fact there, just rumor.

Very well, then your claim that you do not discriminate in your hiring 
practices is also not a fact, merely a rumor.

You do not seem to judge feminists by the same scale as you judge yourself. 
After all, many of your claims are only supported by you, but claims about 
Stallman's behavior are supported by numerous people.

So what does it take for you to consider an eye witness account to be truthful?

Rhetorical question.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

Can everyone move this discussion elsewhere? Seeing that this is not
related to the GNU system or Guix.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Wilson Bustos]

>> Language changes. Get over it.

Actually the spanish language has not changed in that sent.
No one talks in 'political correctness spanish' or in 'feminist spanish'.
So you are not writing spanish itself, just a modified version pushed by
political agenda.

All the best =)

El sáb., 12 oct. 2019 a las 15:32, P () escribió:

> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 6:24 PM, Wilson Bustos 
> wrote:
>
> Change a language's rules to fit your politics because you feel the normal
> language is offensive,is actually extreme.
> All the best,
>
> Language changes. Get over it.
>
>

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* P  [2019-10-12 20:38]:

You have been quoting from Andy Wingo blog:

> The great tragedy of RMS's tenure in the supposedly universalist FSF
> and GNU projects is that he behaves in a way that is particularly
> alienating to women.

GNU project is apolitical. RMS never established any discriminatory
policies for GNU project.

> It doesn't take a genius to conclude that if you're personally
> driving away potential collaborators, that's a bad thing for the
> organization, and actively harmful to the organization's goals:
> software freedom is a cause that is explicitly for everyone.

Not like that. My personal life has nothing with GNU project, that is
what you need to understand. Personal issues are personal.

Do you want to say that anybody in GNU project is now to be
supervised, spyed onto, reviewed, screened, for their personal views,
asking women for date, or for their political statuses before being
accepted in GNU project?

Are you nuts?

> https://twitter.com/quince/status/1172290834974142464

I cannot see any fact there, I see people talking. Is talking wrong?
Ah yes, it is wrong for Thoughtpolice.

No fact.

> https://twitter.com/corbett/status/994012399656042496

"My first interaction with RMS was at a hacker con at 19. He asked my
name, I gave it, whether I went to MIT (I had an MIT shirt on), and
after confirmation I did, asked me on a date. I said no. That was our
entire conversation. Christine, yes, no thanks."

So what?

Is now asking woman for a date wrong? Is it contra-feminist to ask
woman for a date?

She feels proud and important that he asked her, so she tweeted
it. Nothing wrong.

If one would accuse me for asking women for a date, I would get
stoned.

No fact there, just rumor.

> https://twitter.com/starsandrobots/status/994267277460619265

"I remember being walked around campus by an upperclassman getting
advice during my freshman year at MIT. "Look at all the plants in her
office," referring to a professor. "All the women CSAIL professors
keep massive amounts of foliage" s/he said. "Stallman really hates
plants."

so if you find something wrong there, I don't even understand what you
are referring to.

No fact there, just rumor.

> https://twitter.com/alizatw/status/994682557726781440

"I met him at an SF con in Boston. He hit on me in a clueless way. No
thanks."

as me being non-native English speaker, I don't understand that above,
but I don't see how is the SF conference connected to GNU project.

No fact there, just rumor.

> https://twitter.com/suzanne_hillman/status/994596833761660928

"He flirts with anyone who is female, even if they are underage. He is
creepy in person, in a way that I cannot adequately describe. I have
absolutely no doubt in my mind that he kept women out of open source
and free software, and many of his ideas stayed even after he left."

Sorry, I do not know what is wrong here. That Stallman flirts? What
other crime did he commit?

Why no lynch him right away for flirting?

> https://twitter.com/MsAmandaDean/status/994162185247997952

"He and his followers pushed out a whole generation of female
developers, just at that critical time when open source adoption was
widening."

"whole generation of female developers" wow not a fact, just
exaggerated opinion.

GNU project has clear policies of non-discrimination against
anybody.

Don't mistake rumor for facts.

Not a fact. Next.

> https://twitter.com/wiredferret/status/1173042834179534849
> https://twitter.com/bella_velo/status/1172524864193945603

Stallman's pleasure cards? Hahahhahaha. Man you really are good for
Thoughtpolice Squad.

I have nothing against you or anybody to promote their politics,
please do, just outside of GNU project.

Not a fact against RMS related to feminist issues statement. It is
just yet another fact that Guix is feminist movement abusing GNU
project for politics.

> https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88
> 
> Can you actually refute their claims?

But I need not refute it, I gave you refutals already. Contrary to
you, I have read all of your references in genuine search for facts.

Richard is guilty of what? Flirting? Pleasure Cards? Hahhahahahahahha.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Taylan Kammer]

On 12.10.2019 01:04, Jelle Licht wrote:
> Taylan Kammer  writes:
> 
>> [snip]
>>
>> All other political conflicts should IMO be decided on a case by case
>> basis with the goal of reaching mutual compromise within the confines of
>> the communication channels of the GNU project.  That is, 1. no favorites
>> on who gets to silence who and 2. the silencing shall be limited to the
>> project's communication channels.  For example let's take homosexuality
>> and religion.  A gay community member could request another member to
>> refrain from expressing religious views critical of homosexuality within
>> the project's communication channels, as it offends her or him.  On the
>> flip side, a religious person could request another member to refrain
>> from expressing political views in support of normalizing homosexuality
>> within society, because that in turn offends them.
> 
> The difference being that in this example, the bigotry can have
> disastrous effects on the safety of the individuals in question, sadly
> still in many places in the world.
> 
> This is in no shape or way comparable to simply "being offended". To
> equate it to a simple difference of opinion does a great injustice to
> those who struggle, and have struggled in the past for the right to
> simply exist as they are.
> 
> I understand this is simply an example, and will give you the benefit of
> the doubt that you only meant to illustrate different perspectives on
> the interactions that can exist between individuals. I respectfully
> disagree with it being a good example though :-)

Going by this logic, we could ban support of communism based on things
done by the Soviet or things currently done by the People's Republic of
China or North Korea.

There are many religious people who think homosexuality is "wrong" but
strongly disagree with violence, and rather feel "worried for" gay
people who they also try to treat with love.  I think they are very
wrong about homosexuality, but I find it commendable that they don't
tolerate violence, and could not in good conscience call them evil and
request them to be silenced.  In fact, I would not enjoy contributing to
a community that does so.

IMO the tabooing of world views based on harms they may cause, or harms
they do cause in various parts of the world, is a slippery slope.
Almost every ideology has peaceful moderates and militant extremists.

The GNU project should publish a list of ideologies that are officially
banned from its channels so people know what they're in for.  All other
topics should be treated neutrally so long as nobody is using slurs or a
bullying attitude.  Codes of conduct should clarify whether a rule such
as "no homophobia" simply means no homophobic slurs/bullying, or whether
it means that certain ideologies are banned and others favored.


(I've been using religion and homophobia as an arbitrary example.
Should anyone feel upset by this choice of example, please tell me in
private or otherwise so I can switch to another example.  Although I
don't wish to write much more on this off-topic topic...)


- Taylan

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-12 20:25]:
> Change a language's rules to fit your politics because you feel the normal
> language is offensive,is actually extreme.
> 
> All the best

Alright, that is your opinion.

Related to GNU project and welcoming of everybody, and always
appreciating and respecting free speech, I would rather change the
language.

Language was never fixed and static. It changes all the time. It even
changes in 20 years that much that your own people will recognize you
were living in some other country as you are using words which are not
commonly used any more. I have tried it and so I know it.

I am suggesting:
https://www.ted.com/playlists/228/how_language_changes_over_time

https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-a-language-change-1691096

https://www.linguisticsociety.org/content/english-changing

In my language we have He, She, It.

In some languages there does not exist "It".

GNU is representing not only that GNU has not get any animal, it has
also nice anthelope named gnu or wildebeest that exist in Swahili
speaking countries such as Kenya or Tanzania.

A word "safari" means "travel" and has been adopted in many languages
from Swahili and so in that sense safari changed many other languages.

Maybe we shall simply adopt using Swahili version of He/She.

They refer to gender in a written representation of “he or she” used
as a neutral alternative to indicate someone of either sex.

yeye is easy to pronounce for all people in all the world.

The introduction of Safari and "yeye" one can use in GNU manuals to
refer to gender neutral pronoun without knowing does it mean he or
she.

See references from Google translation below, that I got through GNU
Emacs.

Translate from English to Swahili:

He

yeye

pronoun
 1. yeye (he, she, him)

DEFINITION

symbol
 1. the chemical element helium.

noun
 1. a male; a man.
"is that a he or a she?"

pronoun
 1. used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal previously mentioned or easily 
identified.
"Shane has a nice little punch, but he never hurt me with a solid shot."




Translate from English to Swahili:

she

yeye

pronoun
 1. yeye (he, she, him)

DEFINITION

pronoun
 1. used to refer to a woman, girl, or female animal previously mentioned or 
easily identified.
"He is a lonely old man who saw a young girl and told her she was 
beautiful."

noun
 1. a female; a woman.
"I hope I haven't mixed up her sex, I think she's a she …"

pronoun
 1. a written representation of “he or she” used as a neutral alternative to 
indicate someone of either sex.




Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 6:27 PM, Jean Louis  wrote:

> -   P pron...@protonmail.com [2019-10-12 20:03]:
>
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:53 PM, Jean Louis bugs@gnu.support wrote:
> >
> > > When you have reviewed the facts and not just blindly respond back
> > > with your emotional reaction, let me know, as I like exchanging on
> > > true facts, not emotional or political responses.
> > > Jean
> >
> > Have you reviewed the facts about harassment and sexism in free
> > software? It doesn't look like you have.
>
> Yes, I did, did not I give you facts?
>
> I have also immediately asked Ludovic Courtès as he was promoting his
> feminist views in Guix IRC channel. So Ludovic said it is abort() joke
> and Emacs Virgin joke and MIT episodes, see IRC logs from 7th October
> and 8th October.
>
> So yes, I did and I asked for facts before anything. I am adult person
> and not an immature child that cannot confront other people.
>
> Facts:
> https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
> https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
>
> See:
> My Thoughts on the Richard Stallman "Scandal" by Jacob
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE
>
> How does Dr. Richard Stallman lead GNU Project?
>
> Dr. Richard Stallman contacts opinion leaders and forwards free software:
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/
>
> He teaches the world on free software:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCh8EcBrptA
>
> > Or did you not bother to click the links in Wingo's blog post?
>
> Yes, I did clck the links, I did not find any facts on their
> statement. On two ocassions I have answered to Andy Wingo, and did not
> get any answer. Those feminists which I respect in their own
> viewpoints, they are spreading the nonsense on other networks, but not
> gaining support enough. My last answer, the second one to Wingo is
> here:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/gnu/comments/dgelag/thoughts_on_rms_and_gnu_wingolog/f3eglgb/
>
> And I welcome and suggest that all feminist politics go to Reddit or
> any other pages but remain out of GNU as GNU is apolitical project for
> free software only, and free software only.
>
> Jean Louis

What do you mean by "did not find any facts"?

This is the part I'm especially curious about:

```
The great tragedy of RMS's tenure in the supposedly universalist FSF and GNU 
projects is that he behaves in a way that is particularly alienating to women. 
It doesn't take a genius to conclude that if you're personally driving away 
potential collaborators, that's a bad thing for the organization, and actively 
harmful to the organization's goals: software freedom is a cause that is 
explicitly for everyone.

https://twitter.com/quince/status/1172290834974142464
https://twitter.com/corbett/status/994012399656042496
https://twitter.com/starsandrobots/status/994267277460619265
https://twitter.com/alizatw/status/994682557726781440
https://twitter.com/suzanne_hillman/status/994596833761660928
https://twitter.com/MsAmandaDean/status/994162185247997952
https://twitter.com/wiredferret/status/1173042834179534849
https://twitter.com/bella_velo/status/1172524864193945603
https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88
```

Can you actually refute their claims?

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 6:24 PM, Wilson Bustos  wrote:

> Change a language's rules to fit your politics because you feel the normal 
> language is offensive,is actually extreme.
> All the best,

Language changes. Get over it.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 6:22 PM, Jean Louis  wrote:

> -   P pron...@protonmail.com [2019-10-12 20:00]:
>
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:46 PM, Wilson Bustos wrbut...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Don't you think that is extreme?
> >
> > I do not. What's extreme is that you feel like such a tiny thing is 
> > extreme. Quit your whining or find a new hobby.
>
> I do not know which tiny thing is extreme that you think that I think
> that it is extreme, in fact I did not even use that word "extreme"

That's because I wasn't replying to you. Read more carefully next time.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* P  [2019-10-12 20:03]:
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:53 PM, Jean Louis  wrote:
> 
> > When you have reviewed the facts and not just blindly respond back
> > with your emotional reaction, let me know, as I like exchanging on
> > true facts, not emotional or political responses.
> >
> > Jean
> 
> Have you reviewed the facts about harassment and sexism in free
> software? It doesn't look like you have.

Yes, I did, did not I give you facts?

I have also immediately asked Ludovic Courtès as he was promoting his
feminist views in Guix IRC channel. So Ludovic said it is abort() joke
and Emacs Virgin joke and MIT episodes, see IRC logs from 7th October
and 8th October.

So yes, I did and I asked for facts before anything. I am adult person
and not an immature child that cannot confront other people.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

See:
My Thoughts on the Richard Stallman "Scandal" by Jacob
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

How does Dr. Richard Stallman lead GNU Project?

Dr. Richard Stallman contacts opinion leaders and forwards free software:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

He teaches the world on free software:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCh8EcBrptA

> Or did you not bother to click the links in Wingo's blog post?

Yes, I did clck the links, I did not find any facts on their
statement. On two ocassions I have answered to Andy Wingo, and did not
get any answer. Those feminists which I respect in their own
viewpoints, they are spreading the nonsense on other networks, but not
gaining support enough. My last answer, the second one to Wingo is
here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/gnu/comments/dgelag/thoughts_on_rms_and_gnu_wingolog/f3eglgb/

And I welcome and suggest that all feminist politics go to Reddit or
any other pages but remain out of GNU as GNU is apolitical project for
free software only, and free software only.

Jean Louis

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Wilson Bustos]

Change a language's rules to fit your politics because you feel the normal
language is offensive,is actually extreme.

All the best,

El sáb., 12 oct. 2019 a las 15:00, P () escribió:

> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:46 PM, Wilson Bustos 
> wrote:
>
> > Don't you think that is extreme?
>
> I do not. What's extreme is that you feel like such a tiny thing is
> extreme. Quit your whining or find a new hobby.
>

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* P  [2019-10-12 20:00]:
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:46 PM, Wilson Bustos  
> wrote:
> 
> > Don't you think that is extreme?
> 
> I do not. What's extreme is that you feel like such a tiny thing is extreme. 
> Quit your whining or find a new hobby.

I do not know which tiny thing is extreme that you think that I think
that it is extreme, in fact I did not even use that word "extreme"
until now, so I wonder if you are maybe mentalist.

Further, I do not conform to normal boundaries, and thus anything
"extreme" for you is maybe not extreme for me, as you obviously tend
to have it under your own set boundaries which I cannot relate to,
neither know what you mean, as I do not know what is for you normal or
extreme, and my protest is certainly not there to accommodate your or
anybody else way of thinking.

GNU project is there not to accommodate anybody's viewpoints. That
software shall be free is already extreme to many people and that is
not changing the GNU project's intentions.

Being or having extreme way of doing things makes no change in free
software philosophy.

That the vicious politicizing of Guix has brought division into the
community and made impact, yes it did make an impact.

Turn to the cause of politics in Guix which is Ludovic Courtès and the
other members of the Thoughtpolice Squad. Ask them to build a system
that is feminist-only. GNU will remain apolitical project.

So stop whining or find a new place to abuse some other community,
finally there are many feminist communities out there where you can
join and promote your views.

This is free software community that welcomes everybody without asking
who is thinking what, and without politicizing over people by their
viewpoints. 

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:53 PM, Jean Louis bugs@gnu.support wrote:
>
> > When you have reviewed the facts and not just blindly respond back
> > with your emotional reaction, let me know, as I like exchanging on
> > true facts, not emotional or political responses.
> > Jean
>
> Have you reviewed the facts about harassment and sexism in free software? It 
> doesn't look like you have.
>
> Or did you not bother to click the links in Wingo's blog post?

Also just to clarify, I don't give a rat's ass about Motherboard's reporting. 
Vice is a sleazy outlet.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:53 PM, Jean Louis  wrote:

> When you have reviewed the facts and not just blindly respond back
> with your emotional reaction, let me know, as I like exchanging on
> true facts, not emotional or political responses.
>
> Jean

Have you reviewed the facts about harassment and sexism in free software? It 
doesn't look like you have.

Or did you not bother to click the links in Wingo's blog post?

moderation, please

[ng0]

Hi,

this list is to discuss the _development_ of GNU Guix, Shepherd, and Guix 
System.

It is not a general discussion list for everything else.

While we usually get by fine without imposing moderation restrictions,
I don't see how any of the recent message floods have been ontopic to
this list (other than the original announcement of the blog post which
started the comments from people who don't seem to contribute much else).

If it isn't already on moderation for some people, it would be very
kind to do so as numerous active people asked for this (and the people
in question are on record not willing to stop the messages).


Thanks. 

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:46 PM, Wilson Bustos  wrote:

> Don't you think that is extreme?

I do not. What's extreme is that you feel like such a tiny thing is extreme. 
Quit your whining or find a new hobby.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-12 19:47]:
> P,
> The problem is when that politics gets extreme.
> For example at the point to change the rules of a human language just for
> politics reason.
> 
> The guixSD Spanish manual for example says : 'la usuaria' to refer to every
> user

I understand that certain languages have only he or she uses, then in
such case is not right to step into one side, but to mention "usuaria"
or "usuario", mentioning both sexes.

> But in Spanish 'la usuaria' only refers to a female user, and 'el usuario'
> refer to every user, a male or both to be more exact.
> 
> The rules to create a gender neutral language in the manual in some
> languages as the Spanish is not possible, because there is not way to
> achieve that in Spanish at least.

Then make the point by including both sexes in the text.

> But also the the new rule is creating a 'feminist languaje' due to 'la
> usuaria' is only for woman's

So the new rule is made by feminists? That has no place in any GNU
project. It is incorrect to favor one group over the other. GNU
project is apolitical.

> The reason to do that is only political, the argument is the woman's
> feels not get represented when you says 'el usuario'.

Which women? Please make specific statistic. In public relations one
has to do survey, and normally minimum of 1000 people would be asked
in a neutral manner.

You would go to Spain or spanish speaking country, and you would give
them the text to be read without influencing a person in any
manner. Then you would ask questions if text is alright and if they
feel discriminated by any manner?

Next question would be if they feel discriminated by using usuario
instead usuaria.

And then you would ask would it be better to use both usuario/a in the
text.

And you would ask for some other solution.

Then you would evaluate answers from 1000 people. Then such survey
could be published and given to GNU decision makers to further make it
just for people who feel discriminated.

But in those countries where usuario is used, there is meaning in
dictionaries that it does not mean only male, but also female. It is
shortage of the language.

Invent the word.

But don't stand on one side, as it is nonsense to say that usuario
would only be politically correct as it is not.

> But in the real world, only a feminist person can say that.
> 
> The translation work should be translate a lenguaje to another, not create
> a new languaje' to accommodate your political ideas.

If local language does not support neutral gender I think it is
alright to create new language in any of GNU texts so to exclude any
affected group and be politically neutral and welcoming to everybody.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* P  [2019-10-12 19:38]:
> If women should be welcome in tech is a step too far for you, then
> you are too whiny to be useful in tech.

Every women is welcome in free software and any activity in life if
you ask me.

I never stated different and never will.

In fact I do not observe the sex of person when considering anything
in life, that is only important to women' sexual partners and their
physician, maybe their parents.

Human sex is not base for any discrimination. I do not know how you
find me to pick on that.

Finally I am employing people which are man and female, but I did not
check it even once if it is true and it was never important for
anything.

> And technology is ALWAYS political. If you think otherwise, you are
> naive to an almost childish level.

Technology as general may be political, I don't care, even the term is
used incorrectly, as for example there is technology for cooking, and
technology for cleaning surfaces... it is broad term and you probably
refer to some narrow term.

GNU and free software philosophy is not made to exclude any women or
any men, in fact it does not relate to any other politics but free
software politics. GNU project is apolitical and shall stay so for a
good reason.

The only politics for GNU is free software politics.

Please do not introduce other politics in GNU.

> Funny how politics in tech are not a problem to you people when it's
> politics you already agree with. But now you have to make a tiny
> sacrifice, improve just a teensy bit as a human being, and suddenly
> you're scared.

I must be mistaken, you probably do not address me. I cannot relate to
what you say.

I am sorry, I do not know what "tech" means as I participate and apply
certain technologies that are not related to programming and
software. I may not have as much time as you to review various other
subjects and I am not participating in those communities. My people
are more ground people, like villagers, mostly people who have no
software related experiences.

You are trying to fit me into some frame of mind, but I do not see
myself there. 

> And if the divide is between people who want free software to be
> inclusive and people who don't want their leaders to be held
> responsible then I welcome that divide.

You are free to support politicized software projects, there are
many. GNU project is apolitical, it is not allowing GNU project to be
abused by any kind of politics. I am sorry, that is not GNU free
software philosophy.

Please read the freedom zero.

Please note that GNU project was never excluding any type of groups of
people to use free software. Please read the freedom zero. It was
never published, never applied to discriminate on anybody.

For as long as GNU project remains apolitical for anything but free
software politics, it will continue creating friendly communities.

Introducing any politics, especially feminism, into GNU project is not
welcome. Not because it is feminism, but because it is not free
software politics, it is other politics that people can promote on
other projects.

Leader is responsible and did not say or claim what is claimed for. So
if you have contrary facts, let me know.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

See:
My Thoughts on the Richard Stallman "Scandal" by Jacob
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

How does Dr. Richard Stallman lead GNU Project?

Dr. Richard Stallman contacts opinion leaders and forwards free software:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

He teaches the world on free software:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCh8EcBrptA

Dr. Richard Stallman provides policies and planning for GNU project, and he has 
done so successfuly for many years.

When you have reviewed the facts and not just blindly respond back
with your emotional reaction, let me know, as I like exchanging on
true facts, not emotional or political responses.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Wilson Bustos]

P,
The problem is when that politics gets extreme.
For example at the point to change the rules of a human language just for
politics reason.

The guixSD Spanish manual for example says : 'la usuaria' to refer to every
user

But in Spanish 'la usuaria' only refers to a female user, and 'el usuario'
refer to every user, a male or both to be more exact.

The rules to create a gender neutral language in the manual in some
languages as the Spanish is not possible, because there is not way to
achieve that in Spanish at least.

But also the the new rule is creating a 'feminist languaje' due to 'la
usuaria' is only for woman's


The reason to do that is only political, the argument is the woman's feels
not get represented when you says 'el usuario'.
But in the real world, only a feminist person can say that.

The translation work should be translate a lenguaje to another, not create
a new languaje' to accommodate your political ideas.

Don't you think that is extreme?

Regards

El sáb., 12 de octubre de 2019 13:37, P  escribió:

> On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:22 PM, Jean Louis 
> wrote:
>
> > -   František Kučera konfere...@frantovo.cz [2019-10-12 19:13]:
> >
> > > Dne 12. 10. 19 v 15:38 pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) napsal(a):
> > >
> > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 03:06:31PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other people who are introducing
> > > > > their pro-feminist political views into the apolitical GNU project
> > > > > are mixing the independent GNU project with their feminist stances.
> > > >
> > > > GNU projects should be feminist
> > >
> > > It is not clear whether current troubles are linked to feminism or
> other
> > > *ism or just interests of some corporations. But what is clear is that
> > > different people have naturally and constantly different opinions on
> > > various *isms. And the point is that mixing *isms into the free
> software
> > > development, will cause community breakdown. We would be spending time
> > > with pointless quarrels (as you can see right now) instead of
> developing
> > > useful free software for everybody (freedom 0).
> >
> > It is dividing the community.
> >
> > Jean
>
> If "women should be welcome in tech" is a step too far for you, then you
> are too whiny to be useful in tech.
>
> And technology is ALWAYS political. If you think otherwise, you are naive
> to an almost childish level.
>
> Funny how politics in tech are not a problem to you people when it's
> politics you already agree with. But now you have to make a tiny sacrifice,
> improve just a teensy bit as a human being, and suddenly you're scared.
>
> And if the divide is between "people who want free software to be
> inclusive" and "people who don't want their leaders to be held responsible"
> then I welcome that divide.
>
>

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:36 PM,  wrote:

> But we cannot take off somebody's rights on his own organization like GNU and 
> so on.
> znavko.

It's not "his own organization". He can remain a contributor but he shouldn't 
remain any kind of chief.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[znavko]

Hello, Ludovic! I've choose GNU for its ideas of freedom. Freedom make this 
project so powerful and great.
Guix is now most perspective project, and Ludivic Courtes and other developers 
had made great deal on it.
I think you all will have your richness and glory but not that way.
You may organize our new community with our own new resources, structure and 
control. With our own power and rules.
Do you think it will be better for Guix to create new FREE COMMUNITY?
But we cannot take off somebody's rights on his own organization like GNU and 
so on.
znavko.

October 7, 2019 2:33 PM, "Ludovic Courtès"  wrote:

> Hello Guix!
> 
> We, a group of GNU maintainers sharing a vision for a stronger GNU
> Project, are publishing this statement today:
> 
> https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project
> 
> We are somewhat abusing the Guix blog here, for lack of a better place,
> but OTOH the future of GNU is obviously relevant to Guix. (Ricardo and
> I started this initiative before Tobias, Maxim, and Marius were
> on-board.)
> 
> This mailing list is maybe not the best place to discuss this in detail
> but your local GNU maintainers will surely be happy to answer any
> questions you may have. :-)
> 
> Ludo’.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

On Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:22 PM, Jean Louis  wrote:

> -   František Kučera konfere...@frantovo.cz [2019-10-12 19:13]:
>
> > Dne 12. 10. 19 v 15:38 pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) napsal(a):
> >
> > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 03:06:31PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other people who are introducing
> > > > their pro-feminist political views into the apolitical GNU project
> > > > are mixing the independent GNU project with their feminist stances.
> > >
> > > GNU projects should be feminist
> >
> > It is not clear whether current troubles are linked to feminism or other
> > *ism or just interests of some corporations. But what is clear is that
> > different people have naturally and constantly different opinions on
> > various *isms. And the point is that mixing *isms into the free software
> > development, will cause community breakdown. We would be spending time
> > with pointless quarrels (as you can see right now) instead of developing
> > useful free software for everybody (freedom 0).
>
> It is dividing the community.
>
> Jean

If "women should be welcome in tech" is a step too far for you, then you are 
too whiny to be useful in tech.

And technology is ALWAYS political. If you think otherwise, you are naive to an 
almost childish level.

Funny how politics in tech are not a problem to you people when it's politics 
you already agree with. But now you have to make a tiny sacrifice, improve just 
a teensy bit as a human being, and suddenly you're scared.

And if the divide is between "people who want free software to be inclusive" 
and "people who don't want their leaders to be held responsible" then I welcome 
that divide.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Alfred M. Szmidt  [2019-10-12 19:13]:
>Hasn't RMS already officially stepped down?  
> 
> He resigned from the FSF board, he is still Chief GNUisance.

That means nothing in terms of legality and policy making. Stepping
down as President of FSF means really only that FSF has different way
of management, but not different policy.

RMS is a voting member of the FSF and together with other voting
members can do many things, including to straighten the organization,
replace directors, elect new people and similar.

I have read Articles of the FREE SOFTWARE FOUNDATION, INC. And I have
read By-Laws and the General Laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusets.

>What position does he hold within today's GNU project other than
>being a wise old person (wise with respect to his topics of
>expertise) who is respected a lot?
> 
> While the GNU project is very loose in its organization, it is RMS
> who decides what projects get accepts into the GNU project, who is
> or isn't a GNU maintainer, and has the final say on anything related
> to the project.

He is currently the only one promoting free software in the world.

See from 27th August 2019:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCh8EcBrptA

See from September 4th 2019:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

When somebody thinks of programming only, than the person does not
understand work of RMS and policy making and planning without which
there would be no FSF, no web space, no support for free software,
just nothing.

Policies for GNU projects have been already said, anybody can propose
free software to be included in GNU, follow the guidelines and make it
free for all people of the planet:
https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/index.html

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* František Kučera  [2019-10-12 19:13]:
> Dne 12. 10. 19 v 15:38 pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) napsal(a):
> > On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 03:06:31PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> >> Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other people who are introducing
> >> their pro-feminist political views into the apolitical GNU project
> >> are mixing the independent GNU project with their feminist stances.
> >>
> > GNU projects should be feminist
> 
> It is not clear whether current troubles are linked to feminism or other
> *ism or just interests of some corporations. But what is clear is that
> different people have naturally and constantly different opinions on
> various *isms. And the point is that mixing *isms into the free software
> development, will cause community breakdown. We would be spending time
> with pointless quarrels (as you can see right now) instead of developing
> useful free software for everybody (freedom 0).

It is dividing the community.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   Hasn't RMS already officially stepped down?  

He resigned from the FSF board, he is still Chief GNUisance.

   What position does he hold within today's GNU project other than
   being a wise old person (wise with respect to his topics of
   expertise) who is respected a lot?

While the GNU project is very loose in its organization, it is RMS who
decides what projects get accepts into the GNU project, who is or
isn't a GNU maintainer, and has the final say on anything related to
the project.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Eric Myhre  [2019-10-12 18:10]:
> Can you just... Stop?

I am hurring to stop as soon as Guix people take politics out of GNU
project from guix.gnu.org domain.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Eric Myhre]

Can you just... Stop?

In very simple terms.  Stop.

Your opinion, by sheer volume, is now over-represented.

If there was a rate-limit for posts on any given topic, you've exceeded it by 
leagues, miles, kilometers, pick a unit, you've gone too far; it's tiring.

Stop.

We acknowledge your comments; they are recorded.  If you do not have any 
additional detail, variation, or new thought which is to be explored... Please, 
for all of us: give the 'send' key a rest.


 Original Message 
From: Jean Louis 
Sent: October 13, 2019 12:50:34 AM GMT+09:00
To: Wilson Bustos 
Cc: Guix-devel , fsf-and-...@fsf.org, gnu-and-...@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-12 17:45]:
> Why should GuixSD feminist?
> Free software movement is no about popularity, is about freedom.

Because Ludovic Courtès said to me so, when I asked him, that reason
for defamation of RMS is their abort() joke and Emacs Virgin jokes,
including the "MIT episodes", and you can see evidences what I am
talking about here on the Guix IRC log:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and here
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log if you search for those
keywords "abort" and "virgin" or "MIT"

I agree that free software shall be for freedom, but not about freedom
for feminists, anti-fashists, fashists, nazis, or any other politics
on GNU pages but free software politics.

The Thoughtpolice Squad have their own pages to publish their
opinions.

It is not appropriate to punish RMS for Thoughtcrime on GNU.ORG domain
and GNU project shall remain apolitical to any other viewpoints but
free software points.

See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

> If woman's come to the project should be for what we are, not because we
> will became a feminist movement.
> 
> Of course is some way the project is politics, but free software politics
> not gender identity politics, that is something completely
> different.

It should be, but it is not, due to lack of policy enforcement to
remain apolitical.

Jean


-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-12 17:45]:
> Why should GuixSD feminist?
> Free software movement is no about popularity, is about freedom.

Because Ludovic Courtès said to me so, when I asked him, that reason
for defamation of RMS is their abort() joke and Emacs Virgin jokes,
including the "MIT episodes", and you can see evidences what I am
talking about here on the Guix IRC log:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and here
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log if you search for those
keywords "abort" and "virgin" or "MIT"

I agree that free software shall be for freedom, but not about freedom
for feminists, anti-fashists, fashists, nazis, or any other politics
on GNU pages but free software politics.

The Thoughtpolice Squad have their own pages to publish their
opinions.

It is not appropriate to punish RMS for Thoughtcrime on GNU.ORG domain
and GNU project shall remain apolitical to any other viewpoints but
free software points.

See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

> If woman's come to the project should be for what we are, not because we
> will became a feminist movement.
> 
> Of course is some way the project is politics, but free software politics
> not gender identity politics, that is something completely
> different.

It should be, but it is not, due to lack of policy enforcement to
remain apolitical.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[brice]

Hello Guix,

Since the shitshow seems unstoppable at this point, allow me to add my
little crap to it. I have contributed (very) few patches to Guix and
GNU, but mean to contribute more to Guix whatever the outcome of the
drama.

First I want to thoroughly thanks Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo Wurmus and
Andy Wingo for their work on Free Software, especially Guix! Even tough
I don’t agree with their point of view on RMS nor the way they promoted
it, I acknowledge that all this fine community wouldn’t be working
together if it would haven’t been for them and their love for Free
Software.

I think you made a mistake by publishing your statement under the GNU
domain. But since it only has been a few month since the move from
guix.info to guix.gnu.org I can understand why you have published it
there. And why you may not be in a position to redacted it now, without
the perception of loosing some ground. Asking to not comment the
statement on the mailing list wasn’t a great idea neither but since
their hasn’t been any censoring, of which I’m aware, not harm has been
done.

Jean Louis would you be so kind to stop making copypasta and spam it
makes the mailing list really hard to read and discredit your point of
view – of which I am mostly in accord with. The form makes it horrible
to understand and it has probably alienated some of the readers. Putting
Jean Louis on the moderation queue would help a lot in keeping the
mailing list healthy.

Jean Louis writes:
> So NO POLITICS IN GNU PROJECT!

I’m sorry, but as a lot of thing in life, the GNU project *is*
political. However the political scope of it is well defined by all the
links your repeatedly[1] use[2].

Jens Mølgaard  writes:
> […] Repeatedly demanding “evidence” or “facts” while ignoring and refusing to
> engage with any they are presented with.

>From all of what I have read on the Guix mailing list (and a few IRC
logs), I didn’t saw any evidence/facts. Only posts[3] where people
reported their negative *feelings* when they encountered RMS. People are
responsible for their own feelings, you can’t make someone else guilty
by making you feel bad.

I would really like for someone to change my mind on RMS wrongdoing by
actually providing evidence – that is recording or text of RMS in the
act of doing something reprehensible, not a report of someone recalling
feeling bad in his presence.

I really hope the Guix project will regain it’s peace and comradery.

Godspeed to you all!

[1] 
[2] 
[3] 
--
bricewge ~ 8929 BBC5 73CD 9206 3DDD  979D 3D36 CAA0 116F 0F99

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Wilson Bustos]

Why should GuixSD feminist?
Free software movement is no about popularity, is about freedom.

If woman's come to the project should be for what we are, not because we
will became a feminist movement.

Of course is some way the project is politics, but free software politics
not gender identity politics, that is something completely different.


So, I don't know if I miss understand what you tried to say or not.

So please make this point more clean.

Regards.

El sáb., 12 de octubre de 2019 09:38, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) <
pelzflor...@pelzflorian.de> escribió:

> On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 03:06:31PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> > Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other people who are introducing
> > their pro-feminist political views into the apolitical GNU project
> > are mixing the independent GNU project with their feminist stances.
> >
>
> Thank you for making clear arguments.  I believe there is disagreement
> with some core points.
>
> GNU projects should be feminist, because losing contributors, users
> and advocates because of toxic behavior harms free software.  This is
> not unrelated politics.  It is very important.
>
> IMHO it would be sad to lose the support of RMS who continues to do so
> much for GNU.  Endorsing RMS as the GNU Project’s leader could be seen
> as endorsing bad behavior though which harms the GNU operating system.
>
> I thank the GNU maintainers for their stance and am sorry for
> prolonging this discussion even though all arguments were already
> given somewhere before.
>
> Regards,
> Florian
>
>

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Christophe Poncy  [2019-10-11 23:10]:
> On 2019-10-11 20:41, Taylan Kammer wrote:
> > […]  What position does he
> > hold within today's GNU project other than being a wise old person
> > (wise with respect to his topics of expertise) who is respected a lot?
> > 
> 
> As a simple user, I see him as the guardian of the temple ("Chief
> GNUisance"), and that reassures me because he embodies the free software
> philosophy on its own.
> 
> > the maintainers and contributors collectively
> > hold a lot more power than any single person.
> 
> IMO, the GNU essence is more powerful than the sum of its hackers.
> 
> > So in a way I guess I  don't really see what the statement
> > is trying to accomplish
> 
> It visibly sets the scapegoat mechanism in motion, see
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoating#Scapegoat_mechanism

Thanks. Good for my reference for further propaganda.

Literary critic and philosopher Kenneth Burke first coined and described the 
expression scapegoat mechanism in his books Permanence and Change (1935),[14] 
and A Grammar of Motives (1945).[15] These works influenced some philosophical 
anthropologists, such as Ernest Becker and René Girard. Girard developed the 
concept much more extensively as an interpretation of human culture. In 
Girard's view, it is humankind, not God, who has need for various forms of 
atoning violence. Humans are driven by desire for that which another has or 
wants (mimetic desire). This causes a triangulation of desire and results in 
conflict between the desiring parties. This mimetic contagion increases to a 
point where society is at risk; it is at this point that the scapegoat 
mechanism[16] is triggered. This is the point where one person is singled out 
as the cause of the trouble and is expelled or killed by the group. This person 
is the scapegoat. Social order is restored as people are contented that they 
have solved the cause of their problems by removing the scapegoated individual, 
and the cycle begins again. The keyword here is "content". Scapegoating serves 
as a psychological relief for a group of people. Girard contends that this is 
what happened in the narrative of Jesus of Nazareth, the central figure in 
Christianity. The difference between the scapegoating of Jesus and others, 
Girard believes, is that in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, he is 
shown to be an innocent victim; humanity is thus made aware of its violent 
tendencies and the cycle is broken. Thus Girard's work is significant as a 
reconstruction of the Christus Victor atonement theory. 

Important is free software philosophy and as such it is not political.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos  [2019-10-10 22:52]:
> P,
> > And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to
> get into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
> defend him from any criticism.
> So, why didn't you do anything before? why now? If it was a real issue that
> would happen in before, not now.

GNU project is apolitical. No politics other but free software
please. Guix people, stop with the feminism movement in GNU projects,
open up your feminists websites and speak what you want. But use your
money please, not FSF's please.

I did not pay much money, but I did pay for Guix. Would I know they
are to try to hurt GNU community by introducing their political views,
I would never. 

> > Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
> founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
> final say in everything.

Stallman will always lead GNU, be it alive or dead, because he has
established free software philosophy by which FSF acts, and by which
free software exists.

He is now doing important actions such as planning or influencing
decision makers, something that simple programmers sitting behind
their keyboards cannot understand. See:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

> I think that is not the problem, no one is perfect, that is why no one
> needs to be perfect to represent a group as GNU, then, RMS doesn't need to
> be removed because he is not perfect, right?

GNU project is not about being perfect but about efficiency in
providing free software.

GNU is functional in itself, it need no feminism or anti fascists or
nazis to help, no politics is welcome in GNU project as GNU software
is for everybody. See freedom zero at
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html and promote freedom zero
also in the behavior of developers.

> Also, why use the official Guix website to show that statement,
> there is a vote of all the members to do that?

There is no vote, they are dictators. It is not democracy.

> p.s: I'm sorry for text this also, but I don't believe in a SJW
> speech.

Sorry I am getting old to understand SJW:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior

"Social justice warrior" (SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual
who promotes socially progressive views, including feminism, civil
rights, and multiculturalism,[1][2] as well as identity politics.[3]
The accusation that somebody is an SJW carries implications that they
are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated
conviction,[4] and engaging in disingenuous arguments.[5]

OK fine, now I get it, that is exactly what GNU project is not for!

GNU project is for everybody, it is not a platform to be abused by
feminists or any kind of political activists!

> p.s2: A social network text message proof of nothing.

Exactly!

Jean Louis

P.S. Please don't make abort() jokes or you are not welcome in Guix.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[František Kučera]

Dne 12. 10. 19 v 15:38 pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) napsal(a):
> On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 03:06:31PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
>> Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other people who are introducing
>> their pro-feminist political views into the apolitical GNU project
>> are mixing the independent GNU project with their feminist stances.
>>
> GNU projects should be feminist

It is not clear whether current troubles are linked to feminism or other
*ism or just interests of some corporations. But what is clear is that
different people have naturally and constantly different opinions on
various *isms. And the point is that mixing *isms into the free software
development, will cause community breakdown. We would be spending time
with pointless quarrels (as you can see right now) instead of developing
useful free software for everybody (freedom 0).

Franta

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* pelzflorian  [2019-10-12 15:38]:
> On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 03:06:31PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> > Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other people who are introducing
> > their pro-feminist political views into the apolitical GNU project
> > are mixing the independent GNU project with their feminist stances.
> > 
> 
> Thank you for making clear arguments.  I believe there is disagreement
> with some core points.
> 
> GNU projects should be feminist, because losing contributors, users
> and advocates because of toxic behavior harms free software.  This is
> not unrelated politics.  It is very important.

I am sorry, which software got harmed?

It does not harm any software. I did not see any harm. Did some byte
of software change because of somebody's thinking? That would be one
unexplainable instance of telekinesis that I would like to observe.

When somebody expresses ANY opinion is not considered "harm" in my
opinion.

Please Florian, maybe you are from Germany, in Germany it is forbidden
to show Swastika, right? So it is censorship of free speech. If I
would bring Swastika from Nagpur, India, where I came from yesterday,
they would charge me for having a symbol of good luck that many people
use in Nagpur.

GNU is meant for all people and it is planetary project, and not
Western world feminist project only, and it shall take any stance in
any kind of politics but free software politics.

Let us not be opportunists that place expediency above other
principles, that consider good feelings with "everybody" more
important than free software principles.

So NO POLITICS IN GNU PROJECT!

Do you understand that GNU project has planetary importance?

So your stance on feminism is also directly connected to Islam, what
will be next, to prevent Muslim people using free software? What is
next? What is next?

> IMHO it would be sad to lose the support of RMS who continues to do
> so much for GNU.  

His support is never lost.

He has laid out the free software philosophy and GNU manifesto, and
principles, and rule that GNU shall not follow any politics but free
software politics.

So his support is never lost unless all the supporters of free
software philosophy suddenly die in one planetary catastrophe.

> Endorsing RMS as the GNU Project’s leader could be seen as endorsing
> bad behavior though which harms the GNU operating system.

There are millions of people thinking different, why care about it?

What you think will happen in 30 years from now? Some other movement
requesting GNU to be nice to their politics?

Nonsense.

> I thank the GNU maintainers for their stance and am sorry for
> prolonging this discussion even though all arguments were already
> given somewhere before.

There are no arguments Florian. Even my son has same name as you.

Florian, FSF ist nicht Deutschland. Please try to understand what is
free speech. People shall not be punished for free speech.

RMS did not even say what is said that he has said. At least be right
to yourself to verify the facts.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

See more:
https://fsforce.noblogs.org/
https://backtotheaugust.org/

See this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU

How about watching this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

Please STATE the facts.

If you would make your judgment according to German constitution, I
would be fine, but you are not. Nobody is guilty of any crime, so do
not make RMS guilty of Thoughtcrime.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)]

On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 03:06:31PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other people who are introducing
> their pro-feminist political views into the apolitical GNU project
> are mixing the independent GNU project with their feminist stances.
> 

Thank you for making clear arguments.  I believe there is disagreement
with some core points.

GNU projects should be feminist, because losing contributors, users
and advocates because of toxic behavior harms free software.  This is
not unrelated politics.  It is very important.

IMHO it would be sad to lose the support of RMS who continues to do so
much for GNU.  Endorsing RMS as the GNU Project’s leader could be seen
as endorsing bad behavior though which harms the GNU operating system.

I thank the GNU maintainers for their stance and am sorry for
prolonging this discussion even though all arguments were already
given somewhere before.

Regards,
Florian

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Dear Taylan,

See my comments below.

* Taylan Kammer  [2019-10-11 20:42]:
> On 07.10.2019 16:32, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> > Hello Guix!
> >
> > We, a group of GNU maintainers sharing a vision for a stronger GNU
> > Project, are publishing this statement today:
> >
> >https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
> >
> > We are somewhat abusing the Guix blog here, for lack of a better
> > place, but OTOH the future of GNU is obviously relevant to Guix.
> > (Ricardo and I started this initiative before Tobias, Maxim, and
> > Marius were on-board.)
> >
> > This mailing list is maybe not the best place to discuss this in
> > detail but your local GNU maintainers will surely be happy to answer
> > any questions you may have.  :-)
> >
> > Ludo’.
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Some drama about this leaked out of my mailing list-specific sub-folders
> (which I only skim occasionally) into my main INBOX, so of course I had to
> jump straight into it even though I'm barely around these days. ;-)
> 
> 
> Jokes aside, I wanted to ask:
> 
> Hasn't RMS already officially stepped down?  What position does he hold
> within today's GNU project other than being a wise old person (wise with
> respect to his topics of expertise) who is respected a lot?

RMS is doing what he was doing last decades, promoting free software
in the world, establishing policies, finding allies, finding donations
for the FSF, establishing free software licenses, providing
infrastructure through FSF for free sofware.

For example on September 4th 2019, he visited Microsoft Research and
promoted GNU, GNU GPL, difference between GNU and Linux kernel and
asked for polishing of Github licensing requirement, see:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

His position as a leader need not be technical as that may be is
something that you are expecting. There are many technical-only free
software projects, but that is not free software politics.

RMS is politican in regards to free software.

Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other people who are introducing
their pro-feminist political views into the apolitical GNU project
are mixing the independent GNU project with their feminist stances.

But GNU project was, is, and will be always apolitical. Freedom zero
is apolitical. And GNU project was for everybody, something that
Ludovic Courtès, Andy Wingo and other members of the Thoughtpolice
Squad[1] do not allow. They must punish anybody in GNU project for
Thoughtcrime[2].

> From what I can tell, the GNU project is a collection of very
> loosely coupled sub-projects and the maintainers and contributors
> collectively hold a lot more power than any single person.  So in a
> way I guess I don't really see what the statement is trying to
> accomplish, although I agree with the sentiment of it.  What is the
> desired effect and end result of publishing the statement?

What they wish to achieve is to remove Stallman for reasons of
Thoughtcrime as he expressed viewpoints such as abort() joke and Emacs
Virgin jokes that were offending for pro-feminist movement, so they
introduce feminist related political crap into GNU project and wish to
remove Stallman.

But GNU project and Stallman was and is apolitical in everything
related to free software.

Personal views of Stallman, of Ludovioc Courtès or Andy Wingo can be
published elsewhere, just as Andy Wingo published that fact-less
nonsense on his own blog.

None of them is true free software politician, they are of technical
sort of people, programmers, not knowing how to make differences in
society others but by programming.

They are not holding speeches or trying to police Github policy on
licensing issues.

They are bashing on RMS and anybody else who is contra-feminist, which
has no place neither in Guix nor in GNU projects.

As GNU project is apolitical and will stay so. It is welcoming nazis,
as long as they do not abuse GNU project resources for their political
views, and it is welcoming anti-nazis and anti-fashists for as long as
they stick to GNU project free software politics and not abuse GNU
project for their political purposes.

It is welcoming feminists and those supporting feminist views, like
few of Guix people, but for as long as they do not abuse the GNU
project for the reasons of their outside politics.

Yet they abused it.

> Assuming the talk about RMS's behavior includes his voicing of
> certain unpopular opinions, rather than just behavior that directly
> targets a person (like undesired advances), are we going to have a
> discussion about which opinions are considered taboo within the GNU
> project?

That is exactly the point. We shall not and principle that RMS have
set for GNU is to remain apolitical, no politics within GNU project
others but free software and human rights related to computing.

One thing that people agree upon is GNU as free operating system, this
brings all people together, canibalists, a

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Pierre-Henry F.]

Dear Jean-Louis,

Could you please stop sending messages to the channel?

Thanks,
PHF

Envoyé depuis ProtonMail mobile

 Message d'origine 
On 12 oct. 2019 à 14:19, Jean Louis a écrit :

> * Quiliro Ordóñez  [2019-10-11 01:27]:
>> * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>> > I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>> > lists. I am asking you a second time publicly. If you keep disrupting
>> > our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>>
>> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
>> information, on the basis that such material is considered
>> objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient.
>
> Their censorship is for their very expressed support to feminism
> movement. They are introducing politics into GNU project.
>
> GNU project is apolitical to anything but free software.
>
> They have broken their own deeds to be apolitical, and are abusing
> GNU.org domain and Guix free system distribution to spread their
> feminist views.
>
> Reasons have been given to me by Ludovic Courtès, where he said it is
> abort() joke and Emacs Virgin joke, see:
> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and
> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log
>
> By the way Ludovic Courtès does not have any promotion of free
> software politics on his website, so he never even mentioned the four
> freedoms, he is not really proponent, he is programmer, but that is
> not same. He is rather opportunist pushing himself and his own goals
> forward. One cannot expect more but what he does now.
>
> Jean Louis

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Dear P,

See my comments below.

* P  [2019-10-10 22:33]:
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:22 PM, Jean Louis  wrote:
> 
> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
> > > don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
> > > appropriate mailing list.
> >
> > I don't mind.
> >
> > Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix 
> > pages.
> 
> This is what they actually said: GNU is not fulfilling its mission
> when the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we
> want to reach out to.

That is incorrect. GNU is free operating system, and by writing this
from a Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre system it is a simple fact that it is
fullfiling its mission.

Let us be specific and speak of specific facts, concrete, and let us
avoid generalizations. Ludovic Courtès and the succession company by
conducting fears, uncertainty and doubts[1] and by publishing
generalized, fact-less defamation of Dr. Richard Stallman are simply
trying to take over the authority and powers in GNU project.

However, the effect they got is quite opposite, people don't trust
them.

Even people outside of GNU project and those not being supporters of
free software are expressing their opinions on Internet calling them
"traitors" and other bad names that shall not be mentioned at this
place. 

That is the mob's reaction on their libelous statement, based on
emotions, again not on facts. Their libelous statement itself was
based also on emotions and fears of Ludovic Courtès and the succession
company that they will lose their own reputation in their own lives
due to connection to GNU project itself run by Dr. Richard Stallman.

I say this, if my friend is my friend, I stay loyal to my friend,
despite the rumors in background. Rumors are not facts, and there is
no public figure in the world of last 30 years that has not been
attacked by rumors one way or the other.

But rumor is not a fact.

> Which is true, and the funny thing is, it's true by your own
> admission as well.

It is not true.

It is very easy to say "it is true" and accuse RMS and further inflate
accusations.

It is very hard to provide facts.

The fact is that Ludovic Courtès is not a free software activist. He
cannot represent what he said. He is hacker, he is free software
developer, but not activist in the sense that he pushes free software
forward. Do you see the difference in what I am talking about?

Why I am saying this? Because as of now, on his websites I do not see
mentioning of "free software" and any ideas related to free software.

Do you see here on his website any mentioning of the specific term
"free software"?
http://people.bordeaux.inria.fr/lcourtes/

Try searching for this term:

site:hpc.guix.info "free software" on search engines and you will see
his other website https://hpc.guix.info is not mentioning any
advancement of free software. He is hacker, programmer, developer of
free software, but it looks it just happens by chance, he found ground
to do it, which is all good and fine, but he is not public or loud
proponent of free software.

Nowhere on his personal pages he has mentioned important of the GNU
Project and free software and importance of Dr. Richard Stallman.

He likes free software, he develops it, all is fine, there are many
developers like that, and nobody asks him to be proponend or public
proponent for free software, he is free to do what he wish.

However, the fact that Ludovic Courtès is not a public proponent of
free software and that he never mentioned free software movements and
importances of it, that I know, does not qualify him, does not make
him trusted to say what he said on:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/

It is my opinion and impression that many GNU developers joined the
GNU project, without being truly aware of free software ideas and
politics.

What did Ludovic Courtès do for free software in last month, or weeks
other but programming? He has just ruined the image of Guix, GNU, FSF
and Richard Stallman, and himself.

What did Richard Stallman do for free software in last 30 days? He
went to Microsoft Research and did a talk on free software. See this
article:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

That was September 4th 2019.

Did Ludovic Courtès ever did talk on free software?

Or just on Guix, Guile, and other technical stuff that he likes?

Now back to subject of this email, you said that Ludovic Courtès and
his succession company is right and that "GNU is not fullfiling its
mission" due to rumors about RMS, and I have given you my short
research of websites of Ludovic Courtès and have shown you and given
you short research of RMS's deeds in last September 2019, and those
facts are now showing:

1. That Ludovic Courtès never spoke publicly about free software, and
   did not promote free softw

Re: 01/01: gnu: Add nsis-x86_64 and nsis-i686.

[Danny Milosavljevic]

> > +  (license (license:non-copyleft "file://COPYING"
> > + "See COPYING in the 
> > distribution.")  

Also, that URL is invalid.

It seems that I'm one of the few people that regularly uses X11 forwarding
to run different programs from different hosts on the same display, but the
"file" URLs are supposed to be:

file://hostname/path

If you mean localhost, then you can say file:///path, then the localhost is
implied.

It IS possible and recommended to have full file urls like "file://host1/path1"
and "file://host2/path2", but here we can't because we don't know the hostname.

At most, the invalid syntax "file://COPYING" would mean a file on host "COPYING"
with no name (?).


pgpPtijwkW45D.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Quiliro Ordóñez  [2019-10-11 01:27]:
> * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> > I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> > lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> > our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
> 
> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
> information, on the basis that such material is considered
> objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient.

Their censorship is for their very expressed support to feminism
movement. They are introducing politics into GNU project.

GNU project is apolitical to anything but free software.

They have broken their own deeds to be apolitical, and are abusing
GNU.org domain and Guix free system distribution to spread their
feminist views.

Reasons have been given to me by Ludovic Courtès, where he said it is
abort() joke and Emacs Virgin joke, see:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log

By the way Ludovic Courtès does not have any promotion of free
software politics on his website, so he never even mentioned the four
freedoms, he is not really proponent, he is programmer, but that is
not same. He is rather opportunist pushing himself and his own goals
forward. One cannot expect more but what he does now.

Jean Louis

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Vasya Boytsov  [2019-10-10 23:03]:
> I kindly ask to remove this statement from the Guix site. It's
> inappropriate, it's poisonous for the community (you can see this
> clearly now). Anyone can have their own opinion in this discussion,
> but _PLEASE_ can we divide OS development and politics?
> There are more appropriate places to post such statements. Having this
> post on a _Guix_ website is very bad for community health.
> I want to continue using Guix and contribute some packages, but with
> such a political involvement I can't.

See my answer here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2019-10/msg00037.html

That is exactly the problem and the problem was solved but just not
respected by those few who are taking stance on their politics, in
this case feminism movement, Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other
supporters of the pro-feminist politics have published their
pro-feminist statement here:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ and
have not openly said what it is, neither stated the fact, but tried to
bring GNU community down for reasons of Thoughtcrime[1].

Ludovic Courtès said to me that reasons are of feminist nature:

- abort() joke, see the IRC log where he said to me it is about abort
  joke and "MIT episode": http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log
  search for "abort".

- see another evidence here where he introduces feminism stances on
  Emacs Virgin jokes: http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log

Basically RMS is guilty of Thoughtcrime[1] and they (those proponent
of feminism movement) would like GNU without people who think different.

GNU project was always a apolitical and independent. That is why there
is freedom zero that anybody can use software for whatever purposes
they wish.

For example somebody could use free software, GPL licensed, to abort()
or prevent-abortion(), or to spy, create wars or prevent wars, publish
nazi propaganda or anti-fascist propaganda.

By introducing politics other but free software into GNU project
pages, those pro-feminist group of GNU maintainers have tried to make
GNU project political.

Jean Louis

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Re: 01/01: gnu: Add nsis-x86_64 and nsis-i686.

[Marius Bakke]

Hello Carl,

Some feedback on the patch, since it did not go through the usual
channels :-)

guix-comm...@gnu.org writes:

> carl pushed a commit to branch master
> in repository guix.
>
> commit e214a22007450187c3db5d9fdef6ee021be6e953
> Author: Carl Dong 
> Date:   Wed Sep 11 15:43:19 2019 -0400
>
> gnu: Add nsis-x86_64 and nsis-i686.
> 
> * guix/build-system/scons.scm (scons-build): Add build-targets and
> install-targets parameters.
> * guix/build/scons-build-system.scm (build, install): Adjust
> accordingly.
> * doc/guix.texi (Build Systems): Document it.

I would prefer if this was a separate commit, since it is unrelated to
NSIS, even though it is a prerequisite.  If the NSIS patch had to be
reverted for some reason, we would still have this.

(there is nothing we can do about that now, of course, but its's
something to consider in the future)

> * gnu/packages/installers.scm: New file,
> (make-nsis): New procedure,
> (nsis-x86_64, nsis-i686): New variables.
> * gnu/packages/patches/nsis-env-passthru.patch: New file.
> * gnu/local.mk (dist_patch_DATA, GNU_SYSTEM_MODULES): Adjust
> accordingly.

[...]

> +(define(make-nsis machine target-arch nsis-target-type)
> +  (let ((triplet (string-append machine "-" "w64-mingw32")))
> +(package
> +  (name (string-append "nsis-" machine))
> +  (version "3.04")
> +  (source (origin
> +(method url-fetch)
> +(uri (string-append 
> "http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/nsis/nsis-";
> +version "-src.tar.bz2"))
> +(sha256
> + (base32
> +  "1xgllk2mk36ll2509hd31mfq6blgncmdzmwxj3ymrwshdh23d5b0"))
> +(patches (search-patches "nsis-env-passthru.patch"
> +  (build-system scons-build-system)
> +  (native-inputs `(("xgcc" ,(cross-gcc triplet #:libc (cross-libc 
> triplet)))
> +   ("xbinutils" ,(cross-binutils triplet))
> +   ("mingw-w64" ,(cross-libc triplet

Nit-pick: we usually don't indent like this.

> +  (inputs `(("zlib" ,zlib)))
> +  (arguments
> +   `(#:scons ,scons-python2
> + #:modules ((srfi srfi-1)
> +(guix build utils)
> +(guix build scons-build-system))
> + #:tests? #f

Could you leave a comment explaining why tests are disabled?

> + #:scons-flags `("UNICODE=yes"
> + "SKIPUTILS=MakeLangId,Makensisw,NSIS 
> Menu,SubStart,zip2exe"
> + "SKIPDOC=COPYING"
> + "STRIP_CP=no"
> + ,(string-append "PREFIX=" %output)
> + ,(string-append "TARGET_ARCH=" ,target-arch)
> + ,(string-append "XGCC_W32_PREFIX=" ,triplet "-")
> + ,(string-append "PREFIX_PLUGINAPI_INC=" (assoc-ref 
> %build-inputs "mingw-w64") "/include/")
> + ,(string-append "PREFIX_PLUGINAPI_LIB=" (assoc-ref 
> %build-inputs "mingw-w64") "/lib/"))
> + #:build-targets '("makensis"
> +   "stubs"
> +   "plugins"
> +   "utils")
> + #:install-targets '("install-stubs"
> + "install-plugins"
> + "install-data"
> + "install-utils"
> + "install-compiler"
> + "install-conf")
> + #:phases (modify-phases %standard-phases
> +(add-before 'build 'fix-env
> +  (lambda _
> +(define* (filter-delimited-string delimited-string 
> predicate #:optional (delimiter #\:))
> +  ;; Given a DELIMITED-STRING delimited by DELIMITER,
> +  ;; only keep items that satisfy PREDICATE

Please use punctuations in code comments for consistency.

> +  (string-join
> +   (filter predicate (string-split delimited-string 
> delimiter))
> +   (string delimiter)))
> +(define (mingw-path? path)
> +  (string-prefix? (assoc-ref %build-inputs 
> "mingw-w64") path))
> +(for-each
> + (lambda (env-name)
> +   (let ((env-val (getenv env-name)))
> + ;; Remove all mingw-w64 paths from env vars 
> meant
> + ;; for native toolchain
> + (setenv env-name
> + (filter-delimited-string env-val 
> (negate mingw-path?)))
> + ;; Add the removed paths back into
> + ;; CROSS_-prefixed version of env vars
> + (setenv (string-append "CR

Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-11 13:53]:
> Le jeudi 10 octobre 2019 12:24:35 CEST, vous avez écrit :
> > * Alexandre François Garreau  [2019-10-10 11:55]:
> > > > I don't know how to defend anybody in public by silencing talk.
> > > 
> > > Answering whenever appropriate, currently only when asked to, and keep
> > > going this way.
> > 
> > I have no such mentality.
> > 
> > I am doing for RMS what I would like that other people do for
> > me. Stand up and raise the voice. Not wait. That is not me.
> 
> Maybe if you were in the position of rms you would think differently, better 
> acknowledging the different tensions et pressions out there.

Dear Alexandre,

I am sorry, I will take this to the mailing list, not let it be
private.

I do not know what RMS thinks, what I know is that GNU project shall
remain apolitical. The only politics that GNU project shall support is
"(1) that users should have control of their own computing (for
instance, through free software) and (2) supporting basic human rights
in computing. We don't require you as a contributor to agree with
these two points, but you do need to accept that our decisions will be
based on them." See:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

RMS has upheld the above points, and was always apolitical in regards
to free software. He knows well that free software can be used to
prevent abortions, and to make abortions. For example it could be
possible to make an automatic robotic hand that does abortion()
function without presence of doctors, and such could be done with free
software.

I know it because I have read freedom zero: "The freedom to run the
program as you wish" -- so it means AS YOU WISH. To kill, or prevent
killing, to abort or not about() I don't care. I am distributing free
software and truly giving that freedom to others.

GNU project shall remain apolitical for anything but free
software.

Thus feminist views of Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other
feminists that have published their defaming and libelous statement
on: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
are not welcome on GNU project.

They are preventing contra-feminists to join the Guix project, GNU
project, due to their political views.

GNU project is welcoming feminists, and contra-feminists, but for as
long as the GNU project is not abused to spread out their propaganda.

And nobody is preventing them to publish their opinions outside of GNU
project. If they have balls for that.

Jean Louis

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Dear Ludovic,

Hello, how are you? I was on long travel, could not answer you earlier.

* Ludovic Courtès  [2019-10-10 16:29]:
> Hi Jean-Louis,
> 
> Jean Louis  skribis:
> 
> > * Ricardo Wurmus  [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> >> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> >> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> >> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
> >
> > I cannot expect anything else from you.
> 
> You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
> collect hatred messages against me.

I am sorry for your experience. I have not "setup the web page to
collect hatred messages against you". That you think that is my
purpose, that is your own opinion, but it is not.

I have set the page to show that there are people who think different
than you.

You have made your statement in public, and your statement introduces
other politics but free software politics into the GNU free software
spaces.

Guix is part of GNU project, and you are promoting your whatever other
politics. I do not know what exactly it is named, I think it is
feminism. Call it as you wish, because I am not interested in that
other politics. If I am interested I will read it.

GNU Project is not political. It is apolitical.

Did I ask you to tell me your facts to publish such opinions on GNU
Guix pages guix.gnu.org subdomain on GNU.ORG project?

Did you answer to me that it is because of abort() joke?

Here is the log proving so:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log

"you've probably seen a number of events, like the "glibc abort joke"
episode, the latest episode with MIT, and more"

So you are the one introducing thought-frames and you are organizing
Thougtpolice Squad and introducing other politics into GNU Project but
free software politics.

I don't care of your feminism, or contra-feminism issues. I simply
don't. I am supporting GNU project for reasons of
non-discrimination. For reasons that it is for everybody, regardless
of their opinions.

You mentioned "the recent MIT episode", but did you read the
rebuttals?

https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

Is your opinion and statement going to change after reading facts and
rebuttals? Are you going to change your Guix statement due to
disagreements to your  feminism politics in Guix which is in the GNU
Project?

Could you have some balls and simply take out your feminism politics
out of GNU Project?

Was there not enough people telling you on Guix chat that for reasons
of your politics that they do not want to support Guix neither use
Guix?

Why are you imposing other directions in Guix system distribution,
others but "Freedom Zero" policies that Guix remains for everybody,
and not just for those who are on side of feminism?

> I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
> propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if
> you don’t stop by yourself.

For as long is that statement on Guix website, and I live, I will not
stop.

For as long as you are bringing fear, uncertainty and doubt into what
was friendly GNU community of people of various opinions but agreeing
to provide GNU free software systems, I will not stop.

For as long as Guix as such and you keep pushing other politics into
GNU Project but politics of free software, I will not stop.

You can put me under your censorship, isn't that what you were doing
since the moment I tried asking you about facts?

Your own website does not speak of free software politics, it speaks
of software as such. But you never mentioned Dr. Richard Stallman or
ideals of free software on your personal website:
http://web.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludo-3.html
http://people.bordeaux.inria.fr/lcourtes/

Your speeches are technical not ideological.

And who are you then to say that Richard Stallman does not qualify as
GNU project leader? You are hacker, programmer, but ideologically,
your only stance is in feminism, even that is in covert manner.

> Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.

That you don't like people's opinion is already clear. But one thing
you cannot do nothing about is the snow ball that is going on those
political issues that you introduced in Guix, the distribution that
received over US $100,000 from FSF and third parties.

> My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this.
> :-(

"Guix people" are not all people, many disagree with you and they told
you on IRC chat, and on many web pages. And you know it.

Please take your political shit out of Guix pages. Or go out of GNU as
being political enough to bring separation in community because of
your political views. Make your own projects.

GNU was always apolitical.

RMS was never apolitical.

Many GNU project maintainers are NOT apolitical. If somebody is

Re: ‘censorship’

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-10-12 11:36]:
> David  wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 21:11:51 +0300 Dmitry
> > Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You replied privately, offlist.  Was it intentional?  If yes, why: I see 
> >> nothing secret there?
> >
> > Absolutely yes, and I did so as your mail to me was private.
> 
> I’m sure it was not.  :-)

Then maybe I forgot to press "g" in mutt.

> >> If no, may I resent it back to the list?
> >
> > If someone sends me a private mail I follow suit but I've nothing whatever 
> > to hide on this topic.
> 
> I am interpreting this as ‘yes’.

My opinion related to GNU Project is public.

In my opinion, what happened is very same thing that Dr. Richard
Stallman already tried to say to somebody else:

Look here:
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

"The injustice is in the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault"
is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation:
taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as
Y, which is much worse than X."

What happened is this:

Dr. Richard Stallman had some opinion not relevant to GNU Project free
operating system, and not relevant to FSF, and not relevant to free
software movement.

Somebody (probably on medium.com) has facilitated accusation inflation
by taking claims that RMS did X and have been leading people to think
of it as Y which is much worse than X.

Media has picked it up.

Few of purely technical and not free software movement ideological
members such as Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo have further
facilitated accusation inflation by taking claims that RMS did X and
are now loading people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than
X.

In my opinion those people who signed the defamatory and libelous
generalizations here
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
shall basically either remove their feminist politics that they are
trying to introduce to GNU Project and Guix operating system, or they
shall be removed from GNU Project.

Why I say so?

It impacts freedom zero "The freedom to run the program as you wish"
in the sense that indirectly calls for users to either agree to this
or that other viewpoint but free software viewpoint.

We have free software community build around GNU for reason that GNU
Project was always politically independent.

Dr. Richard Stallman installed "The freedom to run the program as you
wish" with the full knowledge that such software can be run by anyone
for whatever purposes, which also implies: for purposes of genetical
engineering of babies, for purposes of wars, making wars and
preventing wars, for purposes of sex or elimination of sex, for
purposes of slander, defamation, or social betterment projects, free
software may be used as you wish, for purposes of helping people and
purposes of killing people.

Thus the GNU Project and GNU website was always apolitical in any
sense.

We got now few people like Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo, and few
others, be it 25 I do not know, who think that other social agenda,
beyond free software is more important for GNU project but free
software being apolitical and independent of those views.

That is what really happened.

It requires some clarity to be issued or enforced by GNU project, as
simple as that. The matter can be cleaned.

I don't care what people think of RMS beyond the GNU.ORG website, but
I do care if GNU.ORG and GNU Projects become platform for their
whatever political views others but free software politics.

Stallman keeps his blog on www.stallman.org that is why it is personal
blog and not GNU.ORG or FSF.ORG neither any of their subdomains.

Ludovic Courtès is afraid to publish his opinion on his personal
pages, because that would impact him so much, that is why he asked for
"collective" support. He would otherwise lose ground for whatever he
was doing in Guix, Guile and so on, everything comes back to him. Same
for Andy Wingo who knows nothing but to whine about Stallman without
mentioning even one fact.

People are speaking out in defense of GNU Project and defense of
Richard Stallman:

My Thoughts on the Richard Stallman "Scandal"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

MIT scientist Richard Stallman taken down by vicious media smears
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU

There are thousands comments supporting GNU and also being afraid of
GNU project future without RMS.

Few "GNU maintainers" such as Ludovic Courtès and his Andy Wingo
friend, who are friends in France, country known for historical
censorship[1], are forming a Thoughtpolice Squad[2] for
thoughtcrime[3] of RMS.

GNU project and any of GNU project pages, shall not push forward ANY
KIND OF POLITICS other but free software. GNU Project was always
apolitical and will remain so, and if it does not, I will take over
all writings and policies of RMS and continue with it being
independent of any politics other but free software.

Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo an

Re: Questions about packaging

[Danny Milosavljevic]

Also, in

(define-public icedtea-6
  (package
[...]
))

"icedtea-6" is a variable name (in the programming language Guile).

The package name is there:

[...]
(package
  (name "icedtea")  <-
)

We don't have version numbers in package names--but you can request
a specific version by 

$ guix package -i xxx@1.2.3
  ^^^ ^ package version
  package name


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Re: Questions about packaging

[Danny Milosavljevic]

Hi,

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 09:42:00 +0200
Tanguy Le Carrour  wrote:

> Le 10/10, Danny Milosavljevic a écrit :
> > > 1) Updating a package
> > > So I would have to update python-cachecontrol from 0.11.6 to 0.12.5.
> > > Should I create a python-cachecontrol-0.11.6 and fix all the packages
> > > that depend on it? Only the one that would break?  
> > 
> > The latter.  That's one of the things we do at Guix but I would not do at 
> > work.  
> 
> OK. I'll do that!
> My next question would be "when would someone create a versionned package 
> name?"

If it's unavoidable.  One of the reasons is that we don't want to increase our
maintenance and testing burden unduly and thus would not want 453 versions of
the same package available at the same time (chances are that some combination
would not have been tested and/or not work).

But there are professional engineering standards which allow you to specify 
which versions of thing A can go with which other versions of thing B.

The most well-known type of that in software is semantic versioning.

So it depends on what kind of versioning scheme the project/package in question
uses.  If it does use semantic versioning or similar then packages which have
changes making it fundamentally incompatible with what came before will increase
their major version, basically making that an independent package (Debian for
example has the major version in that sense in their package NAMES for
libraries).

For example Python 3 is a new major version that is fundamentally incompatible
with Python 2 (cannot use the former as a drop-in replacement for the latter).

Therefore, there are packages for both Python 2 and Python 3, and for
many Python extensions, packages for a Python 2 and a Python 3 variant each. 

Eventually in some years, there will be no users (other packages) of Python 2
anymore.  Once that comes to pass we can drop Python 2.  What we can't do is
replace Python 2 by Python 3 in those user packages--it would break them.

It is necessary that such a versioning "judgement" mechanism be in place
for a package if you ever want to change your package in a backward-incompatible
manner if it has any users.

For a funny example where they didn't use such a mechanism, one HTTP header
entry is called "Referer", including the typo, for all eternity.  (it just
wasn't worth changing it--the knock-on-effect would have been enormous)

> Like for instance `openjdk`?

Openjdk (icedtea) is bootstrapped using the preceding major version of
each version.  icedtea-8 is built by icedtea-7, which is built by
icedtea-6, which is built by jamvm and GNU classpath, and so on, until
we end up at a C compiler interpreted by GNU Mes.  In this way we don't
have binary blobs anywhere but in GNU Mes at the bottom of it.


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Re: Proposal to remove the off-topic, not free software related thoughtcrime accusations from the Guix project pages on GNU.ORG websitew

[Jean Louis]

* Kete via Discussions about the development of the GNU system 
 [2019-10-12 03:28]:
> On 10/11/2019 04:43 PM, Alexander Vdolainen wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 10/11/19 11:16 PM, Kete via Discussions about the development of the
> > GNU system wrote:
> >> On 10/10/2019 05:02 PM, Jean Louis wrote:
> > ... skipped ...
> >>> Well I don't see it that way. I see it as a hostile fact-less thought 
> >>> police punishing and degrading GNU, Guix, FSF and RMS for the thought 
> >>> crime. See the book 1984
> >>>
> >> I think there's more to it than thoughts. I think RMS said something
> >> offensive and has made MIT a toxic environment for women for many years.
> >>
> > Where did you get this bullshit ?
> >
> https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794

There are already numerous refutals and analyzes on that.

https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

Try to watch YouTube videos by using hypervideo or youtube
downloaders.

That is biased articles and even if all that is true, GNU project
shall be socially and politically independent of all of the opinions
of their leader or developers.

Because if we would join the GNU project for reason of what their
individual members are thinking, then it is not GNU project any more.

That we agree on GNU as free operating system, that is what we share
in common and any other opinion outside of GNU as Free Operating
System shall be discussed outside of the GNU websites.

I don't mind if such opinions are discussed on mailing lists supported
by GNU, as such allow two-way communication and responses.

What I am protesting is that rumor mongering is ruining the Guix
project of being politically independent, they are taking their side
to feminists politics, or call it how you want, I don't even know,
but that they are taking their side to certain political movements
others than free software movement, is what is damaging the GNU as
politically independent (other politics but free software).

RMS is not require to remain politically independent but he does not
share his political viewpoints on GNU project, not others but free
software movement. That is why he has non-GNU www.stallman.org
website.

Same shall be done by everybody who is supporting GNU project but has
political stances on other politics but free software, they shall
publish such opinions on their websites not related to GNU projects.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Svante Signell  [2019-10-10 22:23]:
> On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 19:22 +, Jean Louis wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
> > > you don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which
> > > is the appropriate mailing list.
> > 
> > I don't mind.
> 
> Sorry Jean Louis, I was addressing Ludovic, not you. I saw that you
> already sent some stuff to gnu-system-discuss, have to read that now.
> But, please calm down and don't require people to step down. Things has
> to be discussed with sensibility in mind, not creating useless flame
> wars.

Dear Svante,

I do not "require" anyone to step down as I cannot do that.

I am calling those who have integrity to resign from GNU project, that
is different as it is not a requirement.

They are disgracefully abusing Dr. Richard Stallman, Guix operating
system, GNU project and FSF. Funded by the FSF and third parties
through the FSF with way more than US $100,000, it is disgrace that
their defamatory and libelous statement is published on GNU project
websites, as Guix website is GNU project's website.

They expressed to want to build a different free software project, I
am total supporter of that, but if one does not want to support GNU
project, then I suggest they call it different, software can be
forked, names can be changed, and need not be changed at all. 

It is very very funny, that it started with RMS's statement, as
described here: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ where
Dr. Richard Stallman wrote, and I am cutting out the context:

"The injustice is in the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault"
is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation:
taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as
Y, which is much worse than X."

But Ludovic Courtès and the sucession company of his supporters, even
being hackers, cannot understand it at all and continue facilitating
accusation inflation by taking claims that RMS did X and leading
people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X.

The Thoughtpolice[1] Squad of Ludovic Courtès is accusing Dr. Richard
Stallman of thoughtcrime[2] in a manner that is not even appropriate
for criminal offenders. And Richard Stallmen is not a criminal.

I am saddened to see that European born person such as Ludovic Courtès
does not uphold European values such as "nobody is guilty unless
proven" and that for reasons of abort() joke he has decided to defame
and slander on RMS on Guix web pages.

His own website http://web.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ does not speak of
anything related to Dr. Richard Stallman. Like his activity does not
matter alone. I have not seen even mentioning of "free software". I
can just see his own ego and PhD thesis on software and
technicalities, and nothing ideological that I have expected to
see. This speaks of his lack of awareness of importance of free
software and full awareness of technicalities. His ability lies in
hacking, not in leading a GNU project. Without seeing what RMS
continually does for free software, how can he speak to take RMS down
from GNU leadership... it is even not consistent and totally
contradictory with the fact that Guix is supported by RMS, and FSF,
and that huge donation have been sent to Guix by the FSF and third
parties.

The Ludovic Courtès and the succession company have been asked to
provide facts that will justify their statemetn, and they have
none.

They have not allowed comments on their pages, and are just practising
censorship.

It is my opinion that their statements are truly a hostile takeover of
GNU organization and not for reasons of free software and further
development of the GNU project, but for reasons of Ludovic Courtès and
the succession company's desire for authority, powers and funds from
foundations.

Jean

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police

[2]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime