[h-cost] illustrator vs fashion historian
someone wrote: > >The girls' dresses look very "Kate Greenway" to me. > I am not sure when this style was vogue. The Kate Greenway paperdoll book has a lot of > >illustrations of those designs. CarolynKayta Barrows replied: > Kate Greenaway illustrations reflect what the > Aesthetics were wearing in the late-1870s-early-1880s. It's not mainstream. The woman was a > commercial illustrator, not a fashion historian. But isn't a fashion historian a modern construct, and by definition one who looks at the past and not the present? And isn't your critiscism/clarification of Kate Greenway equally applicable to the people who design stuff for Hot Topic and other "alternative" fashion? Basically, i'm confused as to why you would point out the difference-- surely there aren't fashion historians out there, slavishly trying to document 2005! Of course, it is great to know that Kate Greenway represents the tastes of a minor group :-) (if I were more awake, I'd try to form this into some better question/argument about what IS a good source, if not a commercial illustrator who depicts the style of HER group at HER time!) Stephanie __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] formula for spiral lacing
Hi, I've made up a formula for how to calculate the distance between the holes in spiral lacing: y = x/b + x/(2b2) ydistance between two holes xlength of the opening, from the first hole to the last bnumber of holes (without the 1/2 distance hole) It may sound a bit weird, but it's much quicker to use this formula then to wonder 2 hours about how to make the holes. I give an example using the second picture (the one on the left side) on this webpage: http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/lacing/lacing.html let's say the length of the lacing, from first hole to last, is 3,5cm (1+1+1+0,5). (There you can see, the distance between two holes is 1. But that's what you should get in the end). x = 3,5 The number of holes without the half-distance hole is 4. b = 4. Now, count with these numbers, and you get y = 0,98... is approx. 1 So, it's right! I hope this helps a bit when making this kind of lacing. At least it helped me:-)) Zuzana - Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] illustrator vs fashion historian
I believe that Kate Greenaway's typical pictures interpreted the children's fashions of the Regency era (though she did portray other styles in some of her book illustrations). According to the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Greenaway , it was the Aesthetic movement that imitated her rather than the other way round. Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor >>> Stephanie Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 15/08/2006 08:35 >>> CarolynKayta Barrows replied: > Kate Greenaway illustrations reflect what the > Aesthetics were wearing in the late-1870s-early-1880s. It's not mainstream. The woman was a > commercial illustrator, not a fashion historian. But isn't a fashion historian a modern construct, and by definition one who looks at the past and not the present? __ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] illustrator vs fashion historian
But isn't a fashion historian a modern construct, and
by definition one who looks at the past and not the
present?
You've got your definition about right, but no, "fashion historian" is not
a modern construct. There have been fashion historians since at least the
mid-1800s, if we include the folks like Violet-le-Duc and Köhler who
produced those Victorian costume books we now laugh at as inaccurate
Victorian re-drawings. Heck - Vecellio was something of a fashion
historian in the late-1500s-early-1600s, in his own way, and Dover has
reprinted the book of his on which I'm basing that opinion. These are the
giants on whose shoulders folks like Janet Arnold stood.
And isn't your critiscism/clarification of
Kate Greenway
BTW, I don't criticize Kate Greenaway's work for what it isn't, rather I
love it for what it is.
equally applicable to the people who
design stuff for Hot Topic and other "alternative"
fashion? Basically, i'm confused as to why you would
point out the difference
We use her work to document something which is, from a 2006 perspective,
historical, but she didn't set out to "do" historical when she was working,
and neither do the designers from Hot Topic. Both were/are designing to
their contemporary markets.
And yes, some of her stuff shows people in historically based
costumery. That makes them historical examples of how a person of her
period interpreted these other periods. But that doesn't make her a
costume historian, only an illustrator putting historical clothes on some
of her models. And she might well have gone to the books of costume
historians of her day to get her examples.
(My personal favorite one-period-interprets-another is the early 1920s
doing American colonial 1770s, complete with the dropped early-20s
waist. I actively collect examples of this.)
-- surely there aren't fashion
historians out there, slavishly trying to document
2005!
Ah, but there are. That's why folks like the V&A and Metropolitan Museum
haven't stopped collecting currently fashionable garments. They're storing
these things now for the historians many years in the future who will thank
them for having done so. Consider, we would have more historical garments
now if people in the past had specifically done this for us.
Most people don't realize that what they're wearing right now, like as
they're reading this e-mail, will be considered historical 100 years from
now. And that some theatre costumer or historical researcher then would
kill for a photo or actual example of it. Scarey, huh?
Of course, it is great to know that Kate
Greenway represents the tastes of a minor group :-)
...those aforementioned Aesthetics, some of whom dressed very much like
what her illustrations show.
(if I were more awake, I'd try to form this into some
better question/argument about what IS a good source,
if not a commercial illustrator who depicts the style
of HER group at HER time!)
If you mean is she a source for what her group was wearing, you're
right, just like Vogue Magazine will continue to be a good source for
whatever style it is they document every month. But Vogue doesn't set out
to document history, it's just that back issues of it are used by
historians who do.
CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com
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RE: [h-cost] illustrator vs fashion historian
(My personal favorite one-period-interprets-another is the early 1920s doing American colonial 1770s, complete with the dropped early-20s waist. I actively collect examples of this.) I saw a perfectly hideous example of a "renaissance" dress, as interpreted by a 1950's costumer,and don't forget Julie Christie's hair in "Dr. Zhivago". Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carolyn Kayta Barrows Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 2:54 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] illustrator vs fashion historian >But isn't a fashion historian a modern construct, and >by definition one who looks at the past and not the >present? You've got your definition about right, but no, "fashion historian" is not a modern construct. There have been fashion historians since at least the mid-1800s, if we include the folks like Violet-le-Duc and Köhler who produced those Victorian costume books we now laugh at as inaccurate Victorian re-drawings. Heck - Vecellio was something of a fashion historian in the late-1500s-early-1600s, in his own way, and Dover has reprinted the book of his on which I'm basing that opinion. These are the giants on whose shoulders folks like Janet Arnold stood. >And isn't your critiscism/clarification of >Kate Greenway BTW, I don't criticize Kate Greenaway's work for what it isn't, rather I love it for what it is. > equally applicable to the people who >design stuff for Hot Topic and other "alternative" >fashion? Basically, i'm confused as to why you would >point out the difference We use her work to document something which is, from a 2006 perspective, historical, but she didn't set out to "do" historical when she was working, and neither do the designers from Hot Topic. Both were/are designing to their contemporary markets. And yes, some of her stuff shows people in historically based costumery. That makes them historical examples of how a person of her period interpreted these other periods. But that doesn't make her a costume historian, only an illustrator putting historical clothes on some of her models. And she might well have gone to the books of costume historians of her day to get her examples. (My personal favorite one-period-interprets-another is the early 1920s doing American colonial 1770s, complete with the dropped early-20s waist. I actively collect examples of this.) >-- surely there aren't fashion >historians out there, slavishly trying to document >2005! Ah, but there are. That's why folks like the V&A and Metropolitan Museum haven't stopped collecting currently fashionable garments. They're storing these things now for the historians many years in the future who will thank them for having done so. Consider, we would have more historical garments now if people in the past had specifically done this for us. Most people don't realize that what they're wearing right now, like as they're reading this e-mail, will be considered historical 100 years from now. And that some theatre costumer or historical researcher then would kill for a photo or actual example of it. Scarey, huh? >Of course, it is great to know that Kate >Greenway represents the tastes of a minor group :-) ...those aforementioned Aesthetics, some of whom dressed very much like what her illustrations show. >(if I were more awake, I'd try to form this into some >better question/argument about what IS a good source, >if not a commercial illustrator who depicts the style >of HER group at HER time!) If you mean is she a source for what her group was wearing, you're right, just like Vogue Magazine will continue to be a good source for whatever style it is they document every month. But Vogue doesn't set out to document history, it's just that back issues of it are used by historians who do. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com ///\ -@@\\\ 7 ))) )(( <> ))( * ) ( * /\ /---\ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] formula for spiral lacing II
P.S.: the 2b2 means two times b square - Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] illustrator vs fashion historian
In a message dated 8/15/2006 5:56:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Most people don't realize that what they're wearing right now, like as they're reading this e-mail, will be considered historical 100 years from now. Sure we do! But I suppose people who don't care about clothes don't think about it in those terms. But this works in many other areas than fashion. I recently got some old "Laugh In" episodes on DVD. The minute I saw that old NBC peacock come up on the screen a million synapses fired in my brain that hadn't fired since 1968! I remembered piling into the car with the folks to go see my Dad's friend's new color TV. It was the 1st color TV on the block and there were only like 3 shows in color then...that peacock was the 1st thing I ever saw in color on a TV. Look at music... The vinyl record is gone. The CD disc is well on the way out being replaced by iPod technology. When one's in the thick of it, it's hard to see sometimes. Anyway, as far as clothes go, who knows what the future will latch onto or how they will interpret it. Going back to 1968I have like 3 dresses of Mother's made of grey flannel, decorated with rhinestones. Grey flannel and rhinestones? Three of them? Was that a "thing" that fall? Will it be documented in fashion mags? How will the Kyoto accessorize it? What would an 18th century person think of the way the Kyoto displayed those 18th century gowns? We love it [well, I do] but would our 18th century time travelers approve? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Some old linen
Quoting Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: I'm clearing things out, and came across an old white linen tablecloth and four napkins. What size is the tablecloth? susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
what will become historical costume (wasRe: [h-cost] illustrator vs fashion historian
When one's in the thick of it, it's hard
to see sometimes.
Remembering to see such things is a mindset. Now every new thing that
comes out, in any field, I remember that it will get old some day.
Anyway, as far as clothes go, who knows what the future will latch onto or
how they will interpret it. Going back to 1968I have like 3 dresses of
Mother's made of grey flannel, decorated with rhinestones. Grey flannel and
rhinestones? Three of them? Was that a "thing" that fall? Will it be
documented
in fashion mags? How will the Kyoto accessorize it?
I like how your brain works.
What would an 18th century person think of the way the Kyoto displayed those
18th century gowns? We love it [well, I do] but would our 18th century time
travelers approve?
These days I'm writing alternate-universe science fiction. My current
story involves time-traveling clothes as a plot device. When a re-enactor
puts on his or her historical costume, they start to become their
characters. Parts of my plot hinge on this point.
CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com
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Re: [h-cost] Some old linen
Quoting "Susan B. Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Quoting Robin Netherton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >> >> I'm clearing things out, and came across an old white linen tablecloth and >> four napkins. > > What size is the tablecloth? *isgh* braif fart -- as I hit send I noticed 2 things -- one it was going to the list too (bad Susan), and 2 Robin's message came in *yesterday* so it's probably all gone by now. *sigh* apologies, all. susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Some old linen
Susan Farmer wrote: *isgh* braif fart Isn't that that ghastly movie with Mel Gibson? -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Some old linen
Quoting Adele de Maisieres <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Susan Farmer wrote: *isgh* braif fart Isn't that that ghastly movie with Mel Gibson? ROTFLOLWTOOME! boy, when I can't type, I *really* can't type can I? *blush* susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Some old linen
Susan Farmer wrote: > braif fart Adele wrote: > Isn't that that ghastly movie with Mel Gibson? Adele, I believe you owe me a new keyboard. This one has cocoa all over it. Susan: Yes, the linen has been claimed. Von: That's you. I'll contact you shortly, after I weigh the package. Everyone: My regular e-mail is down today. If anyone has written me, I won't see it till the ISP guy fixes things. (I use a very small ISP. The owner is also the tech guy, and he answers the phone when I call, and knows me by name. So, I know he really is working on it.) If you need to reach me before I'm fully functional, please use this address -- rnweb (at) myrealbox.com ... but don't file that away, as I use it only for backup and don't check it unless I'm having a problem with my main box. --Robin Robin Netherton This is my webmail box. Please reply to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost]Briaf fart (was Some old linen)
Thank you Adele!, I will forever hear/read that "Braif Fart" instead of "Brave Heart", changing my feelings from distaste to glee. Champion! Laurie Susan Farmer wrote: *isgh* braif fart Isn't that that ghastly movie with Mel Gibson? -- Adele de Maisieres ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re:In NY City August 25th - 27th? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
I'm moving to White Plains the 23rd. Email me if you want a museum buddy for the weekend. - Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] late 1300s "French"
De wrote: > I've been trying to find pictures online of garments > worn in "France" during the late 1300s. early 1400s > are acceptable. Anyone have a url for a good site? Your best artwork from this period for costume research purposes is in manuscripts, so you need the Bibliotheque Nationale de France. Here's a list of the medieval mss online so far: http://gallica.bnf.fr/themes/ImaMA2.htm Finding your way through the listings of mss is difficult unless you know what you're looking for; you'll have to browse and check the dates as you go. A lot of the ones I have bookmarked for myself are 15th c. and probably a bit too late for you, but I would suggest you look at the Grandes Chroniques de France (MS Fr. 73), which is around 1400. The BNF hasn't webbed a lot of my favorites yet, but each time I look there's something new up there. I'm more familiar with books than websites. If you want hardcopy references, e-mail me directly. --Robin Robin Netherton This is my webmail box. Please reply to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] formula for spiral lacing
Zuzana wrote: << I've made up a formula for how to calculate the distance between the holes in spiral lacing: y = x/b + x/(2b2) ydistance between two holes xlength of the opening, from the first hole to the last bnumber of holes (without the 1/2 distance hole) It may sound a bit weird, but it's much quicker to use this formula then to wonder 2 hours about how to make the holes. >> Now I've wondered more than 2 hours why you would need to wonder 2 hours! No one else has posted to ask about this, so I guess I will: Where was your difficulty originally, that made you come up with this formula? It sounds like the formula determines distance between holes based on the number of holes. But I would determine the spacing of the holes first, and the number of holes would be however many I needed at that spacing. I frankly wouldn't know how many holes I was going to use till I was done, and I don't think I've ever bothered to count them. It's the spacing I care about. In other words: I've learned that to make a non-gapping opening down the front of my fitted dresses, I need to place the holes about 5/8 or 3/4 inch apart. (Not coincidentially, this is the width of my finger.) So, I start at the top. I go just below the area of the seam allowances (which are folded inside the lining and trimmed) and mark the first hole with a sharp chalk line or a sharp pencil line. Then I mark the rest of them, one at a time, one finger-width apart. I do the marking on the inside, with the dress turned inside-out. I do this down to the end of the opening and usually put one more hole past the point where the center seam begins. (I've already sewn the center front so that there's a slight overlap, but that's a nicety and not absolutely necessary.) Then I hold the unmarked edge up next to the marked edge, just as they will lie in wear. I mark the first hole at the same point, straight across from its mate. Then I go down half a fingerwidth and mark another hole. (This is easy to eyeball.) I continue then at one finger-width apart, always watching the opposite side to make sure I'm staying at the midpoints between the first set of marks, on the opposite side. At the bottom, I leave them uneven. The lacing cord eventually will come through whichever bottom hole sits lower, after being fastened on the inside of the garment on the opposite side, at the same level as the lower hole (meaning the lace will be fastened a little below the last hole on that side). I do all the marking before I sew because sewing the eyelets can change the stretch/tension of the fabric and interfere with the evenness of the measurements. Something I do before I start all of this: I baste a line down each edge, exactly 1/2 or 5/8 inch from the edge and parallel to it. When I mark my eyelets, my marking lines cross the basting line, forming a + . The eyelets go on those intersections. The basting helps keep the lining and the main fabric from getting off-kilter while I sew the eyelets. I remove the basting after the eyelets are sewn. Once you're used to this method, you don't need pins or measuring tape, though I only abandoned those a little while ago, after many dresses. It's really simpler now. The more I sew, the less I measure. It's quite likely that 14th-century seamstresses did not use measuring tapes marked in numerical increments. (If anyone has any evidence that they did, let me know. The closest I've heard of are tapes with a specific person's body measurements marked on it, for reference, but even that appears to be rather later, and something that tailors used when sewing independently of the wearer's body.) --Robin Robin Netherton This is my webmail box. Please reply to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] late 1300s "French"
Thank you. The neighboring SCA group is doing an event based loosely on the manuscript "Le Livre de Chasse" by Gaston Phoebus I found a few posted pictures from the manuscript but they have only men in them (no surprise there) and though I might make some men's clothes for the day, I would like something feminine for the evening. Presently I only have norse garb. :) Thank you again. De -Original Message- Your best artwork from this period for costume research purposes is in manuscripts, so you need the Bibliotheque Nationale de France. Here's a list of the medieval mss online so far: http://gallica.bnf.fr/themes/ImaMA2.htm Finding your way through the listings of mss is difficult unless you know what you're looking for; you'll have to browse and check the dates as you go. A lot of the ones I have bookmarked for myself are 15th c. and probably a bit too late for you, but I would suggest you look at the Grandes Chroniques de France (MS Fr. 73), which is around 1400. The BNF hasn't webbed a lot of my favorites yet, but each time I look there's something new up there. I'm more familiar with books than websites. If you want hardcopy references, e-mail me directly. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
