Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
>And as Kass mentions, it is not supposed to lace closed in front. It >really is cut that way, tho why I am still not sure. I've made two of these dresses and I have to agree with Kass's conclusions that it is a dress that can be adapted for pregnancy (though I've yet to try it on someone who is actually pregnant, darn it!). The curved line one sees in the pictures of the gown are actually the result of two darts which pull up the waistline. Before adding in these darts the waistline is positioned under the belly, which is perfect for the increase in size during pregnancy. Jackie Wyatt ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Venetian Carnevale Gown
Hello All, I'm a newbie so I beg your patience My wife and I are living in Italy for a few years, and have made a goal to go to Carnevale in Venice next February. I have undertaken the grand challenge of making costumes for this event. Even with my meager sewing skills/experience (a few Halloween costumes). I've been searching the web for examples and patterns to work from for her gown. But, most of what turns up seems to be French fashion. Maybe it's true that the French fashion dominated Europe in the 18th century, esp. the late 18th century, which is the era I'm looking at. But, is there anything particularly "Italian" or even "Venetian" with respect dress? In particular, so far most of what I've found is the "Robe a la Francese" or sack dress. I really like the sleeves, with the lace trim, and the front, with the pointed stomacher and the layered skirts sweeping open in the front. But, I really don't like the "sack" part in the back. I've looked at patterns for a Robe a la Inglese, and Polonese, but, really don't like it as much in general. In particular, I find the skirt isn't as nice. I am honestly not totally committed to historical accuracy, but, I'd like to not embarrass myself, either. I want something that looks good and withing some realm of reality. In particular, I'm a little dubious about having a separate stomacher, rather than something more one-piece. I'd even stoop to a back zipper if I had to (I hear your gasps of horror and ask for your patience, again). Part of the reason is that we are also avid dancers, and look forward to perhaps even a little waltzing at Carnevale. We'd like something which is also movable. (Although I also know that we're probably talking more Minuets, and the clothing and dance of the era went hand in hand - that is, not a lot of raising your hands high above your head wearing a frock coat, and that wasn't required in Minuets. But, I digress). So, anybody have suggestions on good ideas for this? Patterns, or differences between Venetian and general 18th century European (i.e. French) fasion? Books? Even better - web resources? I'm also hoping to make a frock coat for myself. At the moment, I'm working on a set of stays for my wife by J.P. Ryan and Costume Classroom. We'll see how far I get in this whole venture. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks for humoring a newbie. Best Regards, Mike ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Venetian Carnevale Gown
On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Michael Hamilton wrote: > Hello All, > > I'm a newbie so I beg your patience No advice at the moment, except to remind you that everyone on this list was once a newbie. So you've probably come to the right place. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
I too have actually seen the Shinrone gown up close, but did not have the opportunity to handle it (I didn't know at the time that I could have just asked to do so, and the museum people probably would have said yes), but that said, I have some dispute with Kass' interpretation. Part of the problem is that the gown is displayed on a form that's too big for it, so it can't be laced up in front. If the gown is indeed dated c. 1600, then there is no reason I know of that it would be cut to not lace in front -- all the?contemporary drawings of Irish gowns I've seen (both before and after 1600) show the gowns laced closed in front. Also, why would a gown not lace? It can get pretty cold and damp in Ireland -- what would a woman wear under the gown to keep her warm? According to descriptions of the gown, a lot of "restoration" was done to it in the 1800s. so we realy don't know how much of the weird stitching, seams, etc are Victorian and how much is contemporary. For example, the bodice was reinforced back in the 1800s to hold the skirt, which is very heavy. Look at some of the color illustrations of late 16th century Irish gowns?in Dunleavy's Dress in Ireland for comparison. I've made several of those gowns and if you unlace them, guess what? They look just like the Shinrone gown. By the way, has anyone mentioned the little stand-up collar on the center back (but not elsewhere) of the bodice? Any ideas what it's for? I'm thinking maybe to support a small ruff? Kathleen Norvell -Original Message- From: Kimiko Small To: Historical Costume Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2009 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown Hi Cynthia, Kass' info on the Shinrone gown is probably the most thorough I know of, as she handled the gown herself, and most of the rest I've seen is usually based on written descriptions of the garment and two photos in one book (Dress in Ireland). I know from having made my own many years ago, before her info came out, that the written info is incomplete, and there are unseen & unwritten details that Kass describes pretty well. And as Kass mentions, it is not supposed to lace closed in front. It really is cut that way, tho why I am still not sure. Kimiko From: Cin Ladies (and a few gents), Have any of you got informative comments to share on the Shirone gown? I'm looking at the front and wondering whether that placket is * cut on the straight grain like a Henrican kirtle & distorted with age, wear and/or burial * cut on the straight CF but folded back in a slight V for a wider CF lacing area * really cut in a curve like that?! I've read Recontructing History's notes and would like confirming or contrasting facts, if you have any to share. Thanks all! --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
Cynthia, I had a chance to examine (through glass) the gown last year in Dublin, where it is on display at the Museum of Archaeology. Kass' info is good. My notes: The Shinrone Gown Late 16th-early 17th century. Museum num. W5.) displayed on a form with full view of front and limited view of back of bodice. This dress was found in a bog near Shinrone, County Offaly in 1843. The bodice is made from 1 piece of fabric, which is seamed at the shoulders. The lower half of the bodice is lined with a piece of the same fabric. Skirt is made from 23 pieces sewn together. Lower hem measures 6.53m. Both sleeves would have been secured at the wrist. Coarse twill (approx. 1mm thread). Skirt gathered to bodice. Unfortunately, the Museum would not allow photos. Beth Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 11:28:49 -0700 From: Cin Ladies (and a few gents), Have any of you got informative comments to share on the Shirone gown? I'm looking at the front and wondering whether that placket is * cut on the straight grain like a Henrican kirtle & distorted with age, wear and/or burial * cut on the straight CF but folded back in a slight V for a wider CF lacing area * really cut in a curve like that?! I've read Recontructing History's notes and would like confirming or contrasting facts, if you have any to share. Thanks all! --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Fabric Stores Crystal City? DC?
Any recommendations on a fabric store in DC, somewhere near metro? Going to the Textile Museum on Thursday. Yay! Thanks! Althea *** Directory of Diverse Knowledge http://www.alfalfapress.com/sca Althea Turner alt...@alfalfapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] early 17th century stays and bodice
I made a jacket very similar to the one shown. It's wool, lined with drill (heavy twill-weave cotton -- you could use canvas). I wear no stays under it and it looks just like the illustration shown. If you look closely, you can see the rounded bottom of the bosom under the jacket. You don't get that look with stays. Years ago, when I asked Janet Arnold about 17th century corsetry for the middle class, she replied that "we just don't know" because there are no extant "middle class" 17th century stays. Kathleen Norvell? -Original Message- From: Zuzana Kraemerova To: h-costume Sent: Sun, Aug 9, 2009 10:38 am Subject: [h-cost] early 17th century stays and bodice Hi, I am going to do an early 17th century woman's middle class dress, location: Bohemia (today's Czech Republic, east of Germany if someone doesn't know), time: 1618-1648. I want it to look like this: http://link.library.utoronto.ca/hollar/digobject.cfm?Idno=Hollar_k_1716&query=Hollar_k_1716&size=large&type=browse I have some questions regarding the bodice and stays. First of all, I assume I should use stays (I prefer stays to boned bodices). Then, if I use stays, shall I do some light boning to the bodice as well? It'll be light wool lined with linen. I don't really know how shall the stays look like. I have only found this: http://www.manchestergalleries.org/the-collections/search-the-collection/image.php?EMUSESSID=bf812423145fbba6ba4d441b7ec2ec13&imageirn=400682&r=51445954 from this era, but I'm not sure about the style...I thought I should do some traditional type of stays with lacing at the back...do you have any pictures of other surviving garments (corsets) from the 1st half of 17th century? The bodice should be pointed, cut at the waist, probably with tabs, and with something like princess seams. I think I should keep to this pattern: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hkoslov/1354051356/in/set-72157601949667448/ For the stays and bodice, but again, it's a bit too late. What do you think? Thanks, Zuzana ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] comparison shopping - Tudor Shoes
I'm considering two different vendors to finally get myself some historically accurate Tudor/Elizabethan footwear. The vendors I'm considering are Pilgrim Shoes in the UK: http://www.pilgrimshoes.co.uk/ and Armlann in the States: http://www.armlann.com/. I've heard good things about the latter, next to nothing about the former, but I'm interested in their slip-on style which Armlann doesn't seem to offer. Can anyone offer any anecdotes, experiences etc. for or against? Thanks in advance, A. Thurman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fabric Stores Crystal City? DC?
Well the best fabrics store in DC is G Street Fabrics, but I dont know if any of them are near Metro stops. Certainly Fairfax circle isnt. I dont recall where the metro is near 7 Corners or Rockville. Have fun at the museum. Report back on anything good! --cin On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Althea Turner wrote: > Any recommendations on a fabric store in DC, somewhere near metro? > Going to the Textile Museum on Thursday. Yay! > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Venetian Carnevale Gown
On Aug 11, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Michael Hamilton wrote: My wife and I are living in Italy for a few years, and have made a goal to go to Carnevale in Venice next February. What a wonderful opportunity! I've been searching the web for examples and patterns to work from for her gown. But, most of what turns up seems to be French fashion. Maybe it's true that the French fashion dominated Europe in the 18th century, esp. the late 18th century, which is the era I'm looking at. But, is there anything particularly "Italian" or even "Venetian" with respect dress? "Venetian" images tend to be of Carnavale, usually with masks and an over-the-top sort of look. They also look a bit fuller to my eye, but that may be the fancy dress / costume aspect of them. In particular, so far most of what I've found is the "Robe a la Francese" or sack dress. I really like the sleeves, with the lace trim, and the front, with the pointed stomacher and the layered skirts sweeping open in the front. But, I really don't like the "sack" part in the back. I've looked at patterns for a Robe a la Inglese, and Polonese, but, really don't like it as much in general. In particular, I find the skirt isn't as nice. You said late century; how late? The popularity of these styles changed through the decades. I am honestly not totally committed to historical accuracy, but, I'd like to not embarrass myself, either. In that case are you really concerned about a specific historic era? You could pick the style of gown you like and embellish it. Besides masks, they seemed to use fans and hats to conceal identity. In particular, I'm a little dubious about having a separate stomacher, rather than something more one-piece. Stomachers are another aspect of fashion that were in use for some years but not the entire century. The benefit of a separate stomacher, however, is that the fit of the gown can be adjusted. Also you can make more than one and change the look of the ensemble. I'd even stoop to a back zipper if I had to (I hear your gasps of horror and ask for your patience, again). Why in the back? Gowns were front-fastening for the most part, so why not do that? Do you have to get in and out of the gown quickly? You already said you are making stays. Stays are adjustable so the gown needs some flexibility in the fit, too. Even if you used hooks & eyes instead of straight pins, you might find they need to be moved from year to year. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Shinrone Gown
I've been staring at the few pictures that exist for 25 years, and have discussed it with several people who have seen it in person. (I, unfortunately, am probably the person who knows the most about 16th C. Irish clothes who hasn't actually been TO Ireland. Just imagine what I will know after I've been there. Someday...) Draw a line from 15th C. V-necked gowns, to the German "Cranach" dress. Luke Gernon noted, in the 1620s, that they (Irish women) "*They have straight bodyes, and long wasts, but theyre bodyes come no closer but to the middle of the ribbe, the rest is supplyed with lacing, from the topp of their breasts, to the bottome of theyre **plackett, the ordinary sort have only theyr smockes between, but the better sort have a silke scarfe about theyre neck, which they spead and pinne over theyre breasts. " * The photos available show the dress on a manequin of the wrong size and shape. The front opening in the skirt should be closed at the bottom of the bodice, leaving a U-shaped opening in the bodice. No one has mentioned the shape of the front piece, but as there is not evidence remaining of the fastening of the bodice, the original closure was not under tension and so was probably, like most other garments of the time, worn over another garment laced closed for support. I believe the shape of the edge is due to its storage on an ill-fitting dummy. Do check Kass' site for her observations. She did actually get to measure the garment. Regina Lawson Voorhes Historical Clothing Coordinator Clan MacColin of Glenderry ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
