Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
*giggle* My husband had a similar issue with an English loan-word in Toyko. In Japan, many items, not just clothing, of Western origin have Japanese-ified names. For example, "aparto" is apartment, and "co-hee" is coffee. My spouse asked the concierge at one hotel desk if they could have his "pant-su" ironed. Unfortunately, as in the UK, he didnt mean *that*. --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Beteena Paradise wrote: > We recently moved back to the US after living in the UK for five years. While > there, I never got used to the word "pants" meaning underwear. It was very > embarrassing when we went into a Starbucks out of a downpour where the water > had come up to my ankles. I turned with disgust to my husband and said, "My > pants are soaking wet!!" Several people turned my way and just stared. I > said, "Trousers! I meant trousers!" but it was too late. ;-) LOL > > Teena ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
We recently moved back to the US after living in the UK for five years. While there, I never got used to the word "pants" meaning underwear. It was very embarrassing when we went into a Starbucks out of a downpour where the water had come up to my ankles. I turned with disgust to my husband and said, "My pants are soaking wet!!" Several people turned my way and just stared. I said, "Trousers! I meant trousers!" but it was too late. ;-) LOL Teena From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants One of my favorite speakers on costume history once began a lecture at an international conference by saying, "I considered giving this presentation wearing knickers and a vest." The Americans in the audience may have thought she had a quirky fashion sense, but the Brits were horrified. The speaker went on to discuss the problems of fashion terminology in historical sources. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
*giggle* Oh, yeah, I remember that, again, it was my mother's era to say *snigger* clam-diggers. I never did. I was too sophisticate a teenager in the 70s for that sort of thing. (Yeah, we're from Virginia, too, tho the Northern part.) --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Sybella wrote: > LOL! I'm laughing my butt off over here. > 'Bella > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Kathryn Pinner wrote: > >> Another name, at least in southeast Virginia, was 'clam diggers'. >> >> Kate Pinner >> >> Costume & Scenic Design ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
On 3/20/2013 5:34 PM, Jean Waddie wrote: But in the UK, certainly modernly, it's always knickerbockers. Knickers are female underwear, only. One of my favorite speakers on costume history once began a lecture at an international conference by saying, "I considered giving this presentation wearing knickers and a vest." The Americans in the audience may have thought she had a quirky fashion sense, but the Brits were horrified. The speaker went on to discuss the problems of fashion terminology in historical sources. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] terms or pants
> > > Hey, be loud and proud about your sartorial choices. Terry > ** definitely > > Tongue stuck firmly in cheek: > It never changes. Some guy (Charles Worth, for example) decides we all need > to wear hoop skirts (for example) and we all follow along. I bet it's been > going on since Mankind first started wearing clothes. And I don't mean only > women who follow fashion slavishly; men are right in there too. We finally > figure it out, **Too true. Why should I wear what somebody else decides on? > I enjoy following fashion trends I really like, but since most trends are > not historic > (which to me is pre-1930), I follow many of the historic ones and ignore > most of the others. Fran ** Exactly. That's why I sew. I can make things that look good on me regardless of what *they* say is in style. For me, 1920s is modern Julie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
I look absolutely horrible in both jumpsuits and farmer-style overalls, so have never worn either style. Pity, because farmer overalls can be cute, though I've never liked jumpsuits. Fran Books on making historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com On 3/20/2013 4:24 PM, costumegal66 wrote: I wore gauchos for my modeling portfolio in 1977 and my husband bought me a red corduroy knicker jumpsuit in 1982. Still have both of them. Penny Ladnier The Costume Gallery Websites Www.costumegallery.com >From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network. Original message From: Lynn Downward Date: 03/20/2013 7:08 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants Tongue stuck firmly in cheek: It never changes. Some guy (Charles Worth, for example) decides we all need to wear hoop skirts (for example) and we all follow along. I bet it's been going on since Mankind first started wearing clothes. And I don't mean only women who follow fashion slavishly; men are right in there too. We finally figure it out, Terry figured it out once she got out of high school. It takes other people decades to realize that the most up to date fashion isn't always the one for them. I love people! And what would we costumers do if no one followed fashion? How could we tell an 1875 bonnet from an 1885 one? Lynn On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Terry wrote: Hey, be loud and proud about your sartorial choices. I had two pairs of knickers I got in my last year or two of high school--'81 or '82--the kind with the band just below the knee. One pair was a tasteful tweed. The other was lilac corduroy that I wore with cream colored socks and lavender shoes. I actually had two pairs of lavender shoes, but only one pair was deemed dressy enough for the knickers. After that, I stopped following fads... Terry -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sybella Yes, I did mean the 1980s and "capri" is another one, Cynthia! And Carol may be right, where my memories blended '70s with the '80s...but I do distinctly remember asking Mom to take me shopping for a pair of knickers, pants that came to a gather just below the knee, during my childhood. Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all to keep it a secret! ;) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
in the 1980s I had green velvet knee breeches/knickers a la Princess Diana, and several pairs of (vintage, 20s or 30s) natural linen jodhpurs a la Ralph Lauren. I just thought I'd throw in a mention of the jodhpurs, because both styles looked great on me. I enjoy following fashion trends I really like, but since most trends are not historic (which to me is pre-1930), I follow many of the historic ones and ignore most of the others. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com www.facebook.com/LavoltaPress On 3/20/2013 3:57 PM, Terry wrote: Hey, be loud and proud about your sartorial choices. I had two pairs of ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
I wore gauchos for my modeling portfolio in 1977 and my husband bought me a red corduroy knicker jumpsuit in 1982. Still have both of them. Penny Ladnier The Costume Gallery Websites Www.costumegallery.com From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network. Original message From: Lynn Downward Date: 03/20/2013 7:08 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants Tongue stuck firmly in cheek: It never changes. Some guy (Charles Worth, for example) decides we all need to wear hoop skirts (for example) and we all follow along. I bet it's been going on since Mankind first started wearing clothes. And I don't mean only women who follow fashion slavishly; men are right in there too. We finally figure it out, Terry figured it out once she got out of high school. It takes other people decades to realize that the most up to date fashion isn't always the one for them. I love people! And what would we costumers do if no one followed fashion? How could we tell an 1875 bonnet from an 1885 one? Lynn On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Terry wrote: > Hey, be loud and proud about your sartorial choices. I had two pairs of > knickers I got in my last year or two of high school--'81 or '82--the kind > with the band just below the knee. One pair was a tasteful tweed. The > other was lilac corduroy that I wore with cream colored socks and lavender > shoes. I actually had two pairs of lavender shoes, but only one pair was > deemed dressy enough for the knickers. After that, I stopped following > fads... > > Terry > > -Original Message- > From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On > Behalf Of Sybella > > Yes, I did mean the 1980s and "capri" is another one, Cynthia! And Carol > may be right, where my memories blended '70s with the '80s...but I do > distinctly remember asking Mom to take me shopping for a pair of knickers, > pants that came to a gather just below the knee, during my childhood. > Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all to > keep it a secret! ;) > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
Tongue stuck firmly in cheek: It never changes. Some guy (Charles Worth, for example) decides we all need to wear hoop skirts (for example) and we all follow along. I bet it's been going on since Mankind first started wearing clothes. And I don't mean only women who follow fashion slavishly; men are right in there too. We finally figure it out, Terry figured it out once she got out of high school. It takes other people decades to realize that the most up to date fashion isn't always the one for them. I love people! And what would we costumers do if no one followed fashion? How could we tell an 1875 bonnet from an 1885 one? Lynn On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Terry wrote: > Hey, be loud and proud about your sartorial choices. I had two pairs of > knickers I got in my last year or two of high school--'81 or '82--the kind > with the band just below the knee. One pair was a tasteful tweed. The > other was lilac corduroy that I wore with cream colored socks and lavender > shoes. I actually had two pairs of lavender shoes, but only one pair was > deemed dressy enough for the knickers. After that, I stopped following > fads... > > Terry > > -Original Message- > From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On > Behalf Of Sybella > > Yes, I did mean the 1980s and "capri" is another one, Cynthia! And Carol > may be right, where my memories blended '70s with the '80s...but I do > distinctly remember asking Mom to take me shopping for a pair of knickers, > pants that came to a gather just below the knee, during my childhood. > Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all to > keep it a secret! ;) > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
Hey, be loud and proud about your sartorial choices. I had two pairs of knickers I got in my last year or two of high school--'81 or '82--the kind with the band just below the knee. One pair was a tasteful tweed. The other was lilac corduroy that I wore with cream colored socks and lavender shoes. I actually had two pairs of lavender shoes, but only one pair was deemed dressy enough for the knickers. After that, I stopped following fads... Terry -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sybella Yes, I did mean the 1980s and "capri" is another one, Cynthia! And Carol may be right, where my memories blended '70s with the '80s...but I do distinctly remember asking Mom to take me shopping for a pair of knickers, pants that came to a gather just below the knee, during my childhood. Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all to keep it a secret! ;) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
Ah, I remember my New Romantic days, those wonderful black velvet knickerbockers and frilly white blouse! But in the UK, certainly modernly, it's always knickerbockers. Knickers are female underwear, only. The idea of (male) baseball players routinely wearing knickers is hilarious! Jean On 20/03/2013 21:11, Sybella wrote: Yes, I did mean the 1980s and "capri" is another one, Cynthia! And Carol may be right, where my memories blended '70s with the '80s...but I do distinctly remember asking Mom to take me shopping for a pair of knickers, pants that came to a gather just below the knee, during my childhood. Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all to keep it a secret! ;) Like I said, every time they come back into fashion, there's a new name for the same recycled style! LOL! 'Bella On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 1:06 PM, wrote: There was a short fad for knickers in the mid to late 1970s for women. Gauchos were another one, loose pants that ended below the knee - sort of like a split skirt. For both, you might wear them with a blouse and matching vest. Culottes were a skirt/shorts combo, just above the knee. They might have a wide leg or a separate panel for the skirt effect. Sporty, I remember my mom wearing them for golfing. Capri pants are high ankle or low calf length, and are currently fashionable, and were various times back as far as the 1950s. I think of Audrey Hepburn in them. Pedal pushers were long-ish shorts, I think just below the knee? But a regular pants width, not flared and not gathered. I remember them from the 1960s, but could be earlier. -Carol On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Sybella wrote: In the '80s people called pants that ended just below the knee "knickers." Assuming you mean 1980s: I recall "Capri pants" for women,not knickers. Before that, they were "peddle pushers." And I think there's at least one other name for them. "Knee highs," maybe? It seems every time they come back into fashion, they are called something else. Probably, pedal-pushers as that what my mom called the things they went bicycling in in the 1950s. Also, Knickers strikes me as something an early 20th c golfer or upperclass sport hunter (male) might wear. --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
I don't know... When i was five and six I had peddle pushers and felt pretty cute in the - in the late 1950s. Alas, no bike with which to push peddles. I love words and this has been a really interesting topic! LynnD On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Sybella wrote: > LOL! I'm laughing my butt off over here. > > Hope, thanks for trying but you can't pull the embarrassment card unless > you wore them! You have spared yourself a lifetime of shame by not using > that pattern! :) > > "Clam diggers" Great one!!! I'm surprised I forgot that one. It and peddle > pushers are my favorite names for this horrid, fashion blight! > > > 'Bella > > > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Kathryn Pinner wrote: > > > Another name, at least in southeast Virginia, was 'clam diggers'. > > > > Kate Pinner > > > > Costume & Scenic Design > > > > Tech. Coord., Kelsey Theatre, MCCC > > > > 609-570-3584 > > > > pinn...@mccc.edu > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants > > > > Bella - I won't tell if you won't tell that I actually had a pattern > > very similar to this one. Like so many other fashionable items that I > > thought would put me in the cool kid category, I didn't actually ever > > make them... > > http://momspatterns.com/inc/sdetail/95681 > > > > - Hope > > > > > > On 3/20/13 5:11 PM, Sybella wrote: > > > Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all > to > > > keep it a secret! ;) > > > > > ___ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
LOL! I'm laughing my butt off over here. Hope, thanks for trying but you can't pull the embarrassment card unless you wore them! You have spared yourself a lifetime of shame by not using that pattern! :) "Clam diggers" Great one!!! I'm surprised I forgot that one. It and peddle pushers are my favorite names for this horrid, fashion blight! 'Bella On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Kathryn Pinner wrote: > Another name, at least in southeast Virginia, was 'clam diggers'. > > Kate Pinner > > Costume & Scenic Design > > Tech. Coord., Kelsey Theatre, MCCC > > 609-570-3584 > > pinn...@mccc.edu > > > > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants > > Bella - I won't tell if you won't tell that I actually had a pattern > very similar to this one. Like so many other fashionable items that I > thought would put me in the cool kid category, I didn't actually ever > make them... > http://momspatterns.com/inc/sdetail/95681 > > - Hope > > > On 3/20/13 5:11 PM, Sybella wrote: > > Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all to > > keep it a secret! ;) > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
Another name, at least in southeast Virginia, was 'clam diggers'. Kate Pinner Costume & Scenic Design Tech. Coord., Kelsey Theatre, MCCC 609-570-3584 pinn...@mccc.edu Subject: Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants Bella - I won't tell if you won't tell that I actually had a pattern very similar to this one. Like so many other fashionable items that I thought would put me in the cool kid category, I didn't actually ever make them... http://momspatterns.com/inc/sdetail/95681 - Hope On 3/20/13 5:11 PM, Sybella wrote: > Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all to > keep it a secret! ;) > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
The only contribution I can make is that in Arthur Ransome's Swallows and Amazons books, written and set in the 1930s, a small boy (Roger) is described as wearing knickerbockers. Emily On 3/20/2013 3:05 PM, Hope Greenberg wrote: Ah the wonderful vagaries of fashion terms. Here's what I believe the evolution is: 18th and early 19th century: the general term for pants that end at the knee is knee breeches--or just plain breeches (let's not go back to Elizabethan trunk hose, etc. now!) 1809: Washington Irving publishes his satirical take on history and politics titled A History of New York from the Beginning of the World to the End of the Dutch Dynasty, by Diedrich Knickerbocker. The frontispiece sports an image of a patrician-looking elder gentleman wearing knee breeches. (Irving also begins an amusing hoax related to the whereabouts of Mr. Knickerbocker that has the effect of boosting sales of the book.) 1810-1840: the name is picked up by the public to refer to New Yorkers, particularly gentleman of the old school variety. 1840s: the New York Knickerbockers baseball team is formed. They adopt the uniform of a white flannel shirt and blue wool (long!) pants. No knickers yet. mid-19th century: boys wear short pants - not shaped quite like knee breeches, but not as baggy as later knickerbockers either. The OED dates the use of knickerbocker for the baggy variety dates to 1859. And then there's the gentleman's country wear, the knickerbocker suit, of the late 1860s-1870s. Let's also throw in the baggy pants developed by Amelia Bloomer for the women's dress reform movement which were baggy but originally ankle length. They got shorter at the end of the century and were especially popular for women bicyclists, in fact the OED cites "knickerbocker ladies" as meaning women cyclists. And when do baseball uniforms move to shorter baggy pants that are called knickerbockers...hmmm... 1872: reference to women's under drawers as knickerbockers, followed by 1895 reference to satin knickerbockers. Other references also refer to the younger girls drawers as knickers at about this time. Here's where it gets fuzzy: by WWI the uniform was characterized by what we would term knickerbockers. At about the same time, boys by the early 20th century boys pants were short and baggy. By the 1920s golfers adopted the short baggy look but there's were 4 inches longer than knickerbockers, hence the label "plus fours." Knickers were also the staple of baseball and football uniforms. And by 1926 we have a reference to "French knickers" a British/American term for ladies "tap pants" or short, elastic waist, baggy open leg drawers. (Think Busby Berkley dancers or 30s film stars underwear.) They made a come-back in the 1960s after 1950s ankle pants shortened to pedal pushers. Knickers were always characterized as baggier and drawn in at the knee. Whew! There you have it--what a fun look at this garment. Oh, but back to your original question: it looks like knickers would not be the correct term for any knee-length garment before the late 1850s. - Hope War days. Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
Bella - I won't tell if you won't tell that I actually had a pattern very similar to this one. Like so many other fashionable items that I thought would put me in the cool kid category, I didn't actually ever make them... http://momspatterns.com/inc/sdetail/95681 - Hope On 3/20/13 5:11 PM, Sybella wrote: Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all to keep it a secret! ;) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
Yes, I did mean the 1980s and "capri" is another one, Cynthia! And Carol may be right, where my memories blended '70s with the '80s...but I do distinctly remember asking Mom to take me shopping for a pair of knickers, pants that came to a gather just below the knee, during my childhood. Honestly, it's something I'd rather not admit to so I'll trust you all to keep it a secret! ;) Like I said, every time they come back into fashion, there's a new name for the same recycled style! LOL! 'Bella On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 1:06 PM, wrote: > There was a short fad for knickers in the mid to late 1970s for women. > Gauchos were another one, loose pants that ended below the knee - sort of > like a split skirt. > For both, you might wear them with a blouse and matching vest. > > Culottes were a skirt/shorts combo, just above the knee. They might have a > wide leg or a separate panel for the skirt effect. Sporty, I remember my > mom wearing them for golfing. > > Capri pants are high ankle or low calf length, and are currently > fashionable, and were various times back as far as the 1950s. I think of > Audrey Hepburn in them. > > Pedal pushers were long-ish shorts, I think just below the knee? But a > regular pants width, not flared and not gathered. I remember them from the > 1960s, but could be earlier. > > -Carol > > > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Sybella wrote: > >> In the '80s people called pants that ended just below the knee > >> "knickers." > > > > Assuming you mean 1980s: I recall "Capri pants" for women,not knickers. > > > >> Before that, they were "peddle pushers." And I think there's at least > >> one > >> other name for them. "Knee highs," maybe? It seems every time they come > >> back into fashion, they are called something else. > > > > Probably, pedal-pushers as that what my mom called the things they > > went bicycling in in the 1950s. > > > > Also, Knickers strikes me as something an early 20th c golfer or > > upperclass sport hunter (male) might wear. > > --cin > > Cynthia Barnes > > cinbar...@gmail.com > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Certainly breeches is the correct term for the garments worn as part of British court dress during the Victorian era. I'm not sure what the lower garment of a Norfolk suit is called, though. A random advertisement from 1905 refers to hunting breeches, but that's all a quick search turned up. -- Chris Bertani www.goblinrevolution.org/costumes On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:48 AM, wrote: > Hello, >Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party > sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from my Rev > War days. >Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in Victorian > times? >Henry Osier > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for pants
There was a short fad for knickers in the mid to late 1970s for women. Gauchos were another one, loose pants that ended below the knee - sort of like a split skirt. For both, you might wear them with a blouse and matching vest. Culottes were a skirt/shorts combo, just above the knee. They might have a wide leg or a separate panel for the skirt effect. Sporty, I remember my mom wearing them for golfing. Capri pants are high ankle or low calf length, and are currently fashionable, and were various times back as far as the 1950s. I think of Audrey Hepburn in them. Pedal pushers were long-ish shorts, I think just below the knee? But a regular pants width, not flared and not gathered. I remember them from the 1960s, but could be earlier. -Carol > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Sybella wrote: >> In the '80s people called pants that ended just below the knee >> "knickers." > > Assuming you mean 1980s: I recall "Capri pants" for women,not knickers. > >> Before that, they were "peddle pushers." And I think there's at least >> one >> other name for them. "Knee highs," maybe? It seems every time they come >> back into fashion, they are called something else. > > Probably, pedal-pushers as that what my mom called the things they > went bicycling in in the 1950s. > > Also, Knickers strikes me as something an early 20th c golfer or > upperclass sport hunter (male) might wear. > --cin > Cynthia Barnes > cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Sybella wrote: > In the '80s people called pants that ended just below the knee "knickers." Assuming you mean 1980s: I recall "Capri pants" for women,not knickers. > Before that, they were "peddle pushers." And I think there's at least one > other name for them. "Knee highs," maybe? It seems every time they come > back into fashion, they are called something else. Probably, pedal-pushers as that what my mom called the things they went bicycling in in the 1950s. Also, Knickers strikes me as something an early 20th c golfer or upperclass sport hunter (male) might wear. --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Modernly, you are correct. My grandmother was fond of asking if I'd gotten my "knickers in a twist" if I was angry about something. This often happened if I was being sent to my room for beating up a younger sibling. --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Julie wrote: > I thought knickers referred to underwear. > Julie > > >>Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party >> sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from my >> RevWar days. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Oh heck, as long as I'm in there, here's the OED entry for breeches: c. Now always in pl. breeches /?br?t??z/ , or a pair of breeches(perh. not so used before 15th c.). /Breeches/ are distinguished from /trousers/ by coming only just below the knee, but dialectally (and humorously) /breeches/ includes /trousers/. [/c/1275 (/c/??a1200) La?amon /Brut / (Calig.) (1978) l. 8996 Heo..gripen heore cniues. & of mid here breches. 1382 /Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) / Gen. iii. 7 They soweden to gidre leeves of a fige tree, & maden hem brechis.] /a/1500 in T. Wright & R. P. Wülcker /Anglo-Saxon & Old Eng. Vocab. / (1884) I. 629 /Bracce/, brechys. 1555 W. Waterman tr. J. Boemus /Fardle of Facions / i. iv. 41 Some make them brieches of the heares of their heades. 1560 /Bible (Geneva) / Gen. iii. 7 They sewed figge tree leaues together, and made themselues breeches. 1591 Spenser /Prosopopoia/ in /Complaints / 211 His breeches were made after the new cut. 1661 S. Pepys /Diary / 6 Apr. (1970) II. 66 To put both his legs through one of his Knees of his breeches. 1785 W. Cowper /Task / i. 10 As yet black breeches were not. 17.. /Chestnut Horse /, Dreamed of his boots, his spurs, his leather breeches, Of leaping five-barred gates, and crossing ditches. 1858 N. Hawthorne /Fr. & Ital. Jrnls. / II. 179 Their trousers being tucked up till they were strictly breeches. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
On 3/20/13 4:05 PM, Hope Greenberg wrote: And when do baseball uniforms move to shorter baggy pants that are called knickerbockers...hmmm... Ah-ha - here's one lead: http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.org/dressed_to_the_nines/timeline_1868.htm - Hope ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Ah the wonderful vagaries of fashion terms. Here's what I believe the evolution is: 18th and early 19th century: the general term for pants that end at the knee is knee breeches--or just plain breeches (let's not go back to Elizabethan trunk hose, etc. now!) 1809: Washington Irving publishes his satirical take on history and politics titled A History of New York from the Beginning of the World to the End of the Dutch Dynasty, by Diedrich Knickerbocker. The frontispiece sports an image of a patrician-looking elder gentleman wearing knee breeches. (Irving also begins an amusing hoax related to the whereabouts of Mr. Knickerbocker that has the effect of boosting sales of the book.) 1810-1840: the name is picked up by the public to refer to New Yorkers, particularly gentleman of the old school variety. 1840s: the New York Knickerbockers baseball team is formed. They adopt the uniform of a white flannel shirt and blue wool (long!) pants. No knickers yet. mid-19th century: boys wear short pants - not shaped quite like knee breeches, but not as baggy as later knickerbockers either. The OED dates the use of knickerbocker for the baggy variety dates to 1859. And then there's the gentleman's country wear, the knickerbocker suit, of the late 1860s-1870s. Let's also throw in the baggy pants developed by Amelia Bloomer for the women's dress reform movement which were baggy but originally ankle length. They got shorter at the end of the century and were especially popular for women bicyclists, in fact the OED cites "knickerbocker ladies" as meaning women cyclists. And when do baseball uniforms move to shorter baggy pants that are called knickerbockers...hmmm... 1872: reference to women's under drawers as knickerbockers, followed by 1895 reference to satin knickerbockers. Other references also refer to the younger girls drawers as knickers at about this time. Here's where it gets fuzzy: by WWI the uniform was characterized by what we would term knickerbockers. At about the same time, boys by the early 20th century boys pants were short and baggy. By the 1920s golfers adopted the short baggy look but there's were 4 inches longer than knickerbockers, hence the label "plus fours." Knickers were also the staple of baseball and football uniforms. And by 1926 we have a reference to "French knickers" a British/American term for ladies "tap pants" or short, elastic waist, baggy open leg drawers. (Think Busby Berkley dancers or 30s film stars underwear.) They made a come-back in the 1960s after 1950s ankle pants shortened to pedal pushers. Knickers were always characterized as baggier and drawn in at the knee. Whew! There you have it--what a fun look at this garment. Oh, but back to your original question: it looks like knickers would not be the correct term for any knee-length garment before the late 1850s. - Hope War days. Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
In the '80s people called pants that ended just below the knee "knickers." Before that, they were "peddle pushers." And I think there's at least one other name for them. "Knee highs," maybe? It seems every time they come back into fashion, they are called something else. Maybe the term "breeches" is more accurate. However, that term was used 4 or 500 years before Victorian times, so I'm not really sure. Thanks to the Brits, I do consider "knickers" undergarments, and I do think the term has been used that way since Victorian times. Isn't Steampunk simply a style, not an accurate reflection of any true time period? As I understand it, it takes characteristics from a span of years, and throws in some extra flare. Since it doesn't really claim to be historically accurate*, call the trousers whatever you want! :) *Even the Steampunk fans argue this out. Some say it's Victorian clothes with technology from another year...some say it's just a literary genre. See this link: http://austinsirkin.tumblr.com/post/20317870381/what-is-steampunk-its-come-to-my-attention This online store calls all the bottoms/pants trousers but they do carry two that end below the knee. They call them...are you ready...KNICKERS! :) http://www.steampunkemporium.com/steam.php 'Bella On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Lynn Downward wrote: > Knickers are short for knickerbockers, from some deep recess of my memory. > I know they weren't called knee-breeches during Victorian times (except > maybe by old ladies) but I can't verify they were called knickers. > > My theory is that the ladies' underwear term, knickers, came from the name > of the short trousers worn by men. > > Supposition on my part; my library is miles away and I can't remember > anything solid to back up my comments. > LynnD > > On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Julie wrote: > > > I thought knickers referred to underwear. > > Julie > > > > > > >Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party > > > sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from > > my > > > Rev > > > War days. > > >Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in > Victorian > > > times? > > >Henry Osier > > > > > > > > ___ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Knickers are short for knickerbockers, from some deep recess of my memory. I know they weren't called knee-breeches during Victorian times (except maybe by old ladies) but I can't verify they were called knickers. My theory is that the ladies' underwear term, knickers, came from the name of the short trousers worn by men. Supposition on my part; my library is miles away and I can't remember anything solid to back up my comments. LynnD On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Julie wrote: > I thought knickers referred to underwear. > Julie > > > >Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party > > sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from > my > > Rev > > War days. > >Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in Victorian > > times? > >Henry Osier > > > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Terms for men's pants
I thought knickers referred to underwear. Julie >Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party > sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from my > Rev > War days. >Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in Victorian > times? >Henry Osier > > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Hello, Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from my Rev War days. Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in Victorian times? Henry Osier ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
