Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Rickard, Patty]

Wiki quote:

Classification as a spectral color

Indigo was defined as a spectral color by Sir Isaac Newton when he divided up 
the optical spectrum, which has a continuum of wavelengths. He specifically 
named seven colors primarily to match the seven notes of a western major 
scale,[5] because he believed sound and light were physically similar, and also 
to link colors with the days of the week,[citation needed] and other lists that 
had seven items.

The human eye is relatively insensitive to hue changes in the wavelengths 
between blue and violet, where Newton defined indigo to be; most individuals do 
not distinguish indigo from blue and violet. For this reason, some 
commentators, including Isaac Asimov,[citation needed] hold that indigo should 
not be regarded as a color in its own right, but merely as a hue of blue or 
violet.

Color scientists typically divide the spectrum at about 450 nm between violet 
and blue, with no indigo.[2][6] Others continue to accept it,[7] as it has been 
accepted traditionally as one of Newton's named colors of the spectrum along 
with red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet.

Patty






(1) Indigo does seem to be a "true" blue (i.e. not greenish or purplish). So 
how 
id the word "indigo" come to be applied to the shade between blue and violet in 
he rainbow? (At least the way I learned it: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, 
ndigo, violet)

As to this question, it seems to be Sir Isaac Newton who so named the colors of 
the spectrum--violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange, red.  So one has to 
wonder what his standard was for "true blue."

Ann Wass







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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[annbwass]

(1) Indigo does seem to be a "true" blue (i.e. not greenish or purplish). So 
how 
id the word "indigo" come to be applied to the shade between blue and violet in 
he rainbow? (At least the way I learned it: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, 
ndigo, violet)

As to this question, it seems to be Sir Isaac Newton who so named the colors of 
the spectrum--violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange, red.  So one has to 
wonder what his standard was for "true blue."

Ann Wass






-Original Message-
From: Chris Laning 
To: Historical Costume 
Sent: Thu, Feb 3, 2011 12:22 pm
Subject: Re: [h-cost] his blue coat



n Feb 1, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Land of Oz wrote:
> The name of the dye and the color of the dye are one and the same. Indigo = 
lue.  There were no other colors produced that were called indigo.  There was 
ver dyeing - green could be achieved by putting something already dyed yellow 
nto an indigo vat; dyeing with cochineal before or after indigo for purple, 
tc.

 am sitting here idly wondering:
(1) Indigo does seem to be a "true" blue (i.e. not greenish or purplish). So 
how 
id the word "indigo" come to be applied to the shade between blue and violet in 
he rainbow? (At least the way I learned it: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, 
ndigo, violet)
(2) What dye was used for the famous "bluestockings"? IIRC these began as 
actual 
iteral blue worsted stockings (see basbleu.com) and were regarded as casual 
ear.

OChris Laning  - Davis, California
 http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[annbwass]

 What dye was used for the famous "bluestockings"? IIRC these began as actual 
iteral blue worsted stockings (see basbleu.com) and were regarded as casual 
ear.

Can't answer the first question, about "indigo" in the rainbow, and that is a 
GOOD question--my mother also learned the rainbow colors that way.  Since the 
term dates to the very early 19th century, I imagine the blue stockings worn by 
learned or literary women were probably either worsted wool or linen (called 
"thread" stockings) dyed with indigo. 

Ann Wass





-Original Message-
From: Chris Laning 
To: Historical Costume 
Sent: Thu, Feb 3, 2011 12:22 pm
Subject: Re: [h-cost] his blue coat



n Feb 1, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Land of Oz wrote:
> The name of the dye and the color of the dye are one and the same. Indigo = 
lue.  There were no other colors produced that were called indigo.  There was 
ver dyeing - green could be achieved by putting something already dyed yellow 
nto an indigo vat; dyeing with cochineal before or after indigo for purple, 
tc.

 am sitting here idly wondering:
(1) Indigo does seem to be a "true" blue (i.e. not greenish or purplish). So 
how 
id the word "indigo" come to be applied to the shade between blue and violet in 
he rainbow? (At least the way I learned it: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, 
ndigo, violet)
(2) What dye was used for the famous "bluestockings"? IIRC these began as 
actual 
iteral blue worsted stockings (see basbleu.com) and were regarded as casual 
ear.

OChris Laning  - Davis, California
 http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
___


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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Chris Laning]

On Feb 1, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Land of Oz wrote:

> The name of the dye and the color of the dye are one and the same. Indigo = 
> blue.  There were no other colors produced that were called indigo.  There 
> was over dyeing - green could be achieved by putting something already dyed 
> yellow into an indigo vat; dyeing with cochineal before or after indigo for 
> purple, etc.


I am sitting here idly wondering:

(1) Indigo does seem to be a "true" blue (i.e. not greenish or purplish). So 
how did the word "indigo" come to be applied to the shade between blue and 
violet in the rainbow? (At least the way I learned it: red, orange, yellow, 
green, blue, indigo, violet)

(2) What dye was used for the famous "bluestockings"? IIRC these began as 
actual literal blue worsted stockings (see basbleu.com) and were regarded as 
casual wear.



OChris Laning  - Davis, California
+ http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com





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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Lavolta Press]

One of my fellow students had a roommate who refused to contribute to 
the supply. (Thought the whole thing was too gross.) The student had a 
deadline for her project and was very annoyed at the perceived 
selfishness of her roommate. Luckily, she thought of inviting lots of 
guests during the next week or so, all of whom were urged to be generous.


Fran
Lavolta Press
Books on historic clothing
www.lavoltapress.com


On 2/1/2011 10:31 PM, Sharon Collier wrote:

And I thought milking a cow was hard.
Sharon C.

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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[AnnBWass]

In a message dated 2/1/2011 9:56:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
michaeljdeib...@gmail.com writes:

And  Sweeny is set in 1846,
Ah, I stand corrected--fell into the trap of "Victorian," when that was  
actually a time span of 60 or so years.  You're right that Perkin didn't  
discover mauve until 1856.  There are very bright purple dyes made from  
lichens, but they might, as you surmised, have been very expensive.
 
Ann Wass
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Sharon Collier]

And I thought milking a cow was hard.
Sharon C. 

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On
Behalf Of Marjorie Wilser
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 8:11 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

I remember a friend talking about dyeing the exactly right color for a
historic camel saddle cloth from Afghanistan, a brilliant red that resisted
duplication, until *somebody* figured out they had used camel urine for the
mordant.

Yeh, they had to go collect some.

 == Marjorie Wilser

=:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:=

"Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement." --MW

http://3toad.blogspot.com/




On Feb 1, 2011, at 8:06 PM, Ann Catelli wrote:

> Indigo-the-dye-molecule is the main coloring matter extracted from 
> indigo-the-plant and from woad-the-plant.
>
> Blue jeans fade, not due to any problems with indigo, but because 
> their blue threads are dipped very quickly into the dye bath & out 
> again, so their coloring is all on the outside.
> Like an indigo 'O' in cross-section.
>
> If a dowel is painted, and its outsides sanded down, it is no fault of 
> the paint that the dowel color shows.
>
> Ann in CT
>
> --- On Tue, 2/1/11, annbw...@aol.com  wrote:
>
>> The dyestuff in woad is chemically
>> very similar (in fact, it might be
>> identical, but I can't verify that off-hand) to that in indigo, but 
>> woad doesn't contain as much, and, naturally enough, European woad 
>> dyers resisted the "new fangled" indigo.  Both woad and indigo are 
>> vat dyes--the blue dyestuff is not water soluble, a real drawback in 
>> dyeing, and has to be treated with a  strong reducing agent to make 
>> it water soluble.  The baths smell bad partly  because guess what the 
>> strong base was back in the day--stale urine.
>> Although I understand stale urine doesn't smell like the fresh stuff.  
>> The fiber/fabric is dipped in the bath, and, as it comes out and hits 
>> the air, the  dyestuff is re-oxidized and turns blue.
>>
>> Blue jeans run mainly because there is excess dye left on the surface 
>> of the fabric that is not absorbed into the yarns/fibers.
>>
>> Ann Wass
>
>
>
>
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Marjorie Wilser]

I remember a friend talking about dyeing the exactly right color for a  
historic camel saddle cloth from Afghanistan, a brilliant red that  
resisted duplication, until *somebody* figured out they had used camel  
urine for the mordant.


Yeh, they had to go collect some.

== Marjorie Wilser

=:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:=

"Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement." --MW

http://3toad.blogspot.com/




On Feb 1, 2011, at 8:06 PM, Ann Catelli wrote:

Indigo-the-dye-molecule is the main coloring matter extracted from  
indigo-the-plant and from woad-the-plant.


Blue jeans fade, not due to any problems with indigo, but because  
their blue threads are dipped very quickly into the dye bath & out  
again, so their coloring is all on the outside.

Like an indigo 'O' in cross-section.

If a dowel is painted, and its outsides sanded down, it is no fault  
of the paint that the dowel color shows.


Ann in CT

--- On Tue, 2/1/11, annbw...@aol.com  wrote:


The dyestuff in woad is chemically
very similar (in fact, it might be
identical, but I can't verify that off-hand) to that in
indigo, but woad
doesn't contain as much, and, naturally enough, European
woad dyers resisted the
"new fangled" indigo.  Both woad and indigo are vat
dyes--the blue dyestuff
is not water soluble, a real drawback in dyeing, and has to
be treated with
a  strong reducing agent to make it water
soluble.  The baths smell bad
partly  because guess what the strong base was back in
the day--stale urine.
Although I understand stale urine doesn't smell like the
fresh stuff.  The
fiber/fabric is dipped in the bath, and, as it comes out
and hits the air,
the  dyestuff is re-oxidized and turns blue.

Blue jeans run mainly because there is excess dye left on
the surface of
the fabric that is not absorbed into the yarns/fibers.

Ann Wass





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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Ann Catelli]

Indigo-the-dye-molecule is the main coloring matter extracted from 
indigo-the-plant and from woad-the-plant.

Blue jeans fade, not due to any problems with indigo, but because their blue 
threads are dipped very quickly into the dye bath & out again, so their 
coloring is all on the outside.  
Like an indigo 'O' in cross-section.

If a dowel is painted, and its outsides sanded down, it is no fault of the 
paint that the dowel color shows.

Ann in CT

--- On Tue, 2/1/11, annbw...@aol.com  wrote:

> The dyestuff in woad is chemically
> very similar (in fact, it might be  
> identical, but I can't verify that off-hand) to that in
> indigo, but woad  
> doesn't contain as much, and, naturally enough, European
> woad dyers resisted the  
> "new fangled" indigo.  Both woad and indigo are vat
> dyes--the blue dyestuff  
> is not water soluble, a real drawback in dyeing, and has to
> be treated with 
> a  strong reducing agent to make it water
> soluble.  The baths smell bad 
> partly  because guess what the strong base was back in
> the day--stale urine.   
> Although I understand stale urine doesn't smell like the
> fresh stuff.  The  
> fiber/fabric is dipped in the bath, and, as it comes out
> and hits the air, 
> the  dyestuff is re-oxidized and turns blue.
>  
> Blue jeans run mainly because there is excess dye left on
> the surface of  
> the fabric that is not absorbed into the yarns/fibers.
>  
> Ann Wass


  

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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Lavolta Press]

Of course there were all shades of blue, but i didn't think they were indigo. 
Or perhaps is it that while the dye was called indigo, it was only common in 
shades of blue because a blue hue is more a washed out version of true indigo 
(which is more violet than blue)? Obviously the rich could afford to have the 
fabric dyed repeatedly to reach those deep rich shades, but was out of the 
price range for the commoners?
With natural dyes you can get different shades depending on the amount 
of dye you use, the mordant you use, and of course, by adding portions 
of some other color.


I don't know if indigo per se stinks, but it used to be common to use 
urine in preparing the dye solution.  When I was studying textile arts 
some of the students were doing it and they said the process really 
stank, also the fabric stank until well washed. They were doing, shall 
we say, a roll-your-own process of obtaining the urine and storing it 
till they had enough. Dharma Trading sells urea crystals. The advantage 
of the crystals is that the strength of the chemical is more uniform 
than when obtained from humans.


Fran
Lavolta Press
Books on historic clothing
www.lavoltapress.com
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Lavolta Press]

I've always assumed that Lydia merely wanted to know if Wickham would 
wear military or civilian dress to the wedding (with a preference for 
civilian). As an army officer he may not have had many civilian suits, 
since he did not need them that often and did not have much spare cash.  
Lydia would well know which was his newest and best.


Fran
Lavolta Press
Books on making historic clothing
www.lavoltapress.com


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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Land of Oz]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 21:54:12 -0500
 "michaeljdeib...@gmail.com"  wrote:

Of course there were all shades of
blue, but i didn't think they were
indigo. Or perhaps is it that while
the dye was called indigo, it was
only common in shades of blue because
a blue hue is more a washed out
version of true indigo (which is more
violet than blue)?


The "shades" of blue were the result of two things - the number of times the 
fabric/yarn was dipped (fewer = paler) and the length of time the garment 
was in use.  Just like the difference between stiff new extremely dark 
original Levi jeans compared to what they look like after being washed 
hundreds of times. (or the accelerated version - stonewashed, acid washed, 
etc).


The name of the dye and the color of the dye are one and the same. Indigo = 
blue.  There were no other colors produced that were called indigo.  There 
was over dyeing - green could be achieved by putting something already dyed 
yellow into an indigo vat; dyeing with cochineal before or after indigo for 
purple, etc.


Denise
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Land of Oz]

All of this is also true about indigo.  And no, the color didn't turn back 
to yellow green when wet, and AFAIK once thoroughly washed the fabric would 
no longer stink. It is a chemical reaction that when finished is ... 
finished.


Denise


On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 15:34:45 -0800
 "Sharon Collier"  wrote:

I don't know if this has any thing
to do with it, but woad was the blue
used
before the discovery of indigo. It
smelled so bad that in Elizabethan
times,
woad dyers had to be located outside
of town. Woad is interesting in that
in
the dye bath, it appears a muddy
yellow-green, but when the dyed fiber
is
exposed to air, it turns blue.
I don't know if this meant that, if
wet:
1. it turned/lost color
2. it smelled bad again
Indigo, once discovered, was
considered a better blue dye. But it
had been
discovered by the 1700's; and we
know from blue jeans that it runs, so
maybe
a chemical dye that wouldn't run or
fade was the reason for the
popularity/snob appeal of the new
blue.

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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[michaeljdeib...@gmail.com]

Of course there were all shades of blue, but i didn't think they were indigo. 
Or perhaps is it that while the dye was called indigo, it was only common in 
shades of blue because a blue hue is more a washed out version of true indigo 
(which is more violet than blue)? Obviously the rich could afford to have the 
fabric dyed repeatedly to reach those deep rich shades, but was out of the 
price range for the commoners? 

And Sweeny is set in 1846, long before aniline dyes were thought of. It's also 
a huge stretch to bring that vibrant if a purple that early in the century, 
especially on a street performer/barber trying to look his best. And if a show 
is period in nature, then I do whatever I can to make it true to that era and 
realist as possible with the given budget.

Michael Deibert
OAS AAS LLS
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 1, 2011, at 21:22, annbw...@aol.com wrote:

> By the 18th century, indigo blue was one of the most ubiquitous  colors.  
> All kinds of working clothes were solid blue, or blue and white  checks or 
> stripes.  I grant that the very dark blues may have been a tad  more 
> expensive, though, as they had to be dipped several times.  And  yes, indigo 
> is fast.
> 
> What year was your "Sweeny Todd" set in?  I thought it was late 19th  
> century, and any time after about 1870, one could have had a brilliant purple 
>  
> (by then dyed with aniline dyes) for not too much money.
> 
> Ann Wass 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 2/1/2011 6:20:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> michaeljdeib...@gmail.com writes:
> 
> Sorry I  ant include exact dates as I'm at work and it's a hassle to look 
> it up on my  phone! 
> 
> Indigo dyes were around for a long time. However, they were  made from 
> extracts of plants. This process was extremely costly for the plants  
> themselves, it took multiple baths in the he in order to reach that deep rich 
>  color 
> that was desires. Because of this expense, only the upper class,  nobility 
> and the clergy were able to afford garments in these colors. I also  believe 
> that that dye was by colorfast. 
> 
> In the 1760's, the first  synthetic dyes were discovered, though it took 
> tip about the turn of the  century till the process was refined. Because it 
> wa 
> now synthetic, the lower  classes could finally afford garments in this 
> color range.
> 
> Again, while  I cannot pinpoint my sources by memory, I had looked into 
> this last spring  while costuming the musical Sweeny Todd where the director 
> wanted a vibrant  purple waistcoat for Pirrelli's character. Because of the 
> year it was set,  there was no way He could have afforded that color but 
> unfortunately my  research went unheaded.
> 
> Michael Deibert
> OAS AAS LLS
> Sent from my  iPhone
> 
> On Feb 1, 2011, at 18:04, Marie Stewart   wrote:
> 
>> Hi folks.
>> I must,  respectfully, disagree with Ann on a point about the color 
> Prussian
>> Blue  Prussian Blue is defined as absorbing wavelengths about around 680 
> nm,
>> causing it to appear in visible light as approximately 700  THz.  Which 
> is a
>> lovely strong blue leaning towards the violet  end of the spectrum,  not 
> to
>> the green/yellow end.
>> (Methods of Chemical Analysis,  1998)
>> 
>> I will agree with  her that I misspoke when I said it was and aniline dye,
>> its a  cyanometalate.  I would have been more accurate to say that  
> Prussian
>> blue was one of the first chemically synthesized dyes.   Thanks for the
>> redirect on that one.
>> 
>> (navel  gazing:  We know that the dye was in the painters sphere in the  
> early
>> 1700s  (18th century), but when did it move to the dyers  sphere?  Was it 
> in
>> the mid-1700s, thanks to Macquer's experiments  with reduction, thereby
>> giving an easily transportable  salt?   Or was it used popularly, or 
> rarely
>> before  that.   I'm going to go have to go research this.  Fascinating
>> topic.
>> 
>> As a nifty side note, and a easy  visual reference (although I got it from
>> Wikipedia, so take it with a  big grain of NaCl) the midnight blue crayon
>> was once colored with and  called Prussian blue.
>> 
>> Mari
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[AnnBWass]

The dyestuff in woad is chemically very similar (in fact, it might be  
identical, but I can't verify that off-hand) to that in indigo, but woad  
doesn't contain as much, and, naturally enough, European woad dyers resisted 
the  
"new fangled" indigo.  Both woad and indigo are vat dyes--the blue dyestuff  
is not water soluble, a real drawback in dyeing, and has to be treated with 
a  strong reducing agent to make it water soluble.  The baths smell bad 
partly  because guess what the strong base was back in the day--stale urine.   
Although I understand stale urine doesn't smell like the fresh stuff.  The  
fiber/fabric is dipped in the bath, and, as it comes out and hits the air, 
the  dyestuff is re-oxidized and turns blue.
 
Blue jeans run mainly because there is excess dye left on the surface of  
the fabric that is not absorbed into the yarns/fibers.
 
Ann Wass
 
 
In a message dated 2/1/2011 6:35:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
sha...@collierfam.com writes:

I don't  know if this has any thing to do with it, but woad was the blue 
used
before  the discovery of indigo. It smelled so bad that in Elizabethan 
times,
woad  dyers had to be located outside of town. Woad is interesting in that 
in
the  dye bath, it appears a muddy yellow-green, but when the dyed fiber  is
exposed to air, it turns blue. 
I don't know if this meant that, if  wet: 
1. it turned/lost color
2. it smelled bad again
Indigo, once  discovered, was considered a better blue dye. But it had been
discovered by  the 1700's; and we know from blue jeans that it runs, so 
maybe
a chemical  dye that wouldn't run or fade was the reason for the
popularity/snob appeal  of the new blue. 
Sharon C.
-Original Message-
From:  h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On
Behalf  Of michaeljdeib...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 3:19  PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] his blue  coat

Sorry I ant include exact dates as I'm at work and it's a hassle  to look it
up on my phone! 

Indigo dyes were around for a long time.  However, they were made from
extracts of plants. This process was extremely  costly for the plants
themselves, it took multiple baths in the he in order  to reach that deep
rich color that was desires. Because of this expense,  only the upper class,
nobility and the clergy were able to afford garments  in these colors. I 
also
believe that that dye was by colorfast. 

In  the 1760's, the first synthetic dyes were discovered, though it took  
tip
about the turn of the century till the process was refined. Because it  wa
now synthetic, the lower classes could finally afford garments in this  
color
range.

Again, while I cannot pinpoint my sources by memory, I  had looked into this
last spring while costuming the musical Sweeny Todd  where the director
wanted a vibrant purple waistcoat for Pirrelli's  character. Because of the
year it was set, there was no way He could have  afforded that color but
unfortunately my research went  unheaded.

Michael Deibert
OAS AAS LLS
Sent from my  iPhone

On Feb 1, 2011, at 18:04, Marie Stewart   wrote:

> Hi folks.
> I must,  respectfully, disagree with Ann on a point about the color 
> Prussian  Blue  Prussian Blue is defined as absorbing wavelengths about 
>  around 680 nm, causing it to appear in visible light as approximately 
>  700 THz.  Which is a lovely strong blue leaning towards the violet end  
> of the spectrum,  not to the green/yellow end.
> (Methods  of Chemical Analysis,  1998)
> 
> I will agree with her that  I misspoke when I said it was and aniline 
> dye, its a  cyanometalate.  I would have been more accurate to say that 
>  Prussian blue was one of the first chemically synthesized dyes.  
>  Thanks for the redirect on that one.
> 
> (navel gazing:  We  know that the dye was in the painters sphere in the 
> early 1700s   (18th century), but when did it move to the dyers sphere?  
> Was  it in the mid-1700s, thanks to Macquer's experiments with  reduction,
thereby
> giving an easily transportable salt?Or was it used popularly, or 
rarely
> before that.   I'm going  to go have to go research this. Fascinating
>  topic.
> 
> As a nifty side note, and a easy visual reference  (although I got it 
> from Wikipedia, so take it with a big grain of  NaCl) the midnight blue 
> crayon was once colored with and called  Prussian blue.
> 
> Mari
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[AnnBWass]

By the 18th century, indigo blue was one of the most ubiquitous  colors.  
All kinds of working clothes were solid blue, or blue and white  checks or 
stripes.  I grant that the very dark blues may have been a tad  more 
expensive, though, as they had to be dipped several times.  And  yes, indigo is 
fast.
 
What year was your "Sweeny Todd" set in?  I thought it was late 19th  
century, and any time after about 1870, one could have had a brilliant purple  
(by then dyed with aniline dyes) for not too much money.
 
Ann Wass 
 
 
In a message dated 2/1/2011 6:20:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
michaeljdeib...@gmail.com writes:

Sorry I  ant include exact dates as I'm at work and it's a hassle to look 
it up on my  phone! 

Indigo dyes were around for a long time. However, they were  made from 
extracts of plants. This process was extremely costly for the plants  
themselves, it took multiple baths in the he in order to reach that deep rich  
color 
that was desires. Because of this expense, only the upper class,  nobility 
and the clergy were able to afford garments in these colors. I also  believe 
that that dye was by colorfast. 

In the 1760's, the first  synthetic dyes were discovered, though it took 
tip about the turn of the  century till the process was refined. Because it wa 
now synthetic, the lower  classes could finally afford garments in this 
color range.

Again, while  I cannot pinpoint my sources by memory, I had looked into 
this last spring  while costuming the musical Sweeny Todd where the director 
wanted a vibrant  purple waistcoat for Pirrelli's character. Because of the 
year it was set,  there was no way He could have afforded that color but 
unfortunately my  research went unheaded.

Michael Deibert
OAS AAS LLS
Sent from my  iPhone

On Feb 1, 2011, at 18:04, Marie Stewart   wrote:

> Hi folks.
> I must,  respectfully, disagree with Ann on a point about the color 
Prussian
>  Blue  Prussian Blue is defined as absorbing wavelengths about around 680 
 nm,
> causing it to appear in visible light as approximately 700  THz.  Which 
is a
> lovely strong blue leaning towards the violet  end of the spectrum,  not 
to
> the green/yellow end.
>  (Methods of Chemical Analysis,  1998)
> 
> I will agree with  her that I misspoke when I said it was and aniline dye,
> its a  cyanometalate.  I would have been more accurate to say that  
Prussian
> blue was one of the first chemically synthesized dyes.   Thanks for the
> redirect on that one.
> 
> (navel  gazing:  We know that the dye was in the painters sphere in the  
early
> 1700s  (18th century), but when did it move to the dyers  sphere?  Was it 
in
> the mid-1700s, thanks to Macquer's experiments  with reduction, thereby
> giving an easily transportable  salt?   Or was it used popularly, or 
rarely
> before  that.   I'm going to go have to go research this.  Fascinating
> topic.
> 
> As a nifty side note, and a easy  visual reference (although I got it from
> Wikipedia, so take it with a  big grain of NaCl) the midnight blue crayon
> was once colored with and  called Prussian blue.
> 
> Mari
>  ___
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> h-costume@mail.indra.com
>  http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Sharon Collier]

I don't know if this has any thing to do with it, but woad was the blue used
before the discovery of indigo. It smelled so bad that in Elizabethan times,
woad dyers had to be located outside of town. Woad is interesting in that in
the dye bath, it appears a muddy yellow-green, but when the dyed fiber is
exposed to air, it turns blue. 
I don't know if this meant that, if wet: 
1. it turned/lost color
2. it smelled bad again
Indigo, once discovered, was considered a better blue dye. But it had been
discovered by the 1700's; and we know from blue jeans that it runs, so maybe
a chemical dye that wouldn't run or fade was the reason for the
popularity/snob appeal of the new blue. 
Sharon C.
-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On
Behalf Of michaeljdeib...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 3:19 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

Sorry I ant include exact dates as I'm at work and it's a hassle to look it
up on my phone! 

Indigo dyes were around for a long time. However, they were made from
extracts of plants. This process was extremely costly for the plants
themselves, it took multiple baths in the he in order to reach that deep
rich color that was desires. Because of this expense, only the upper class,
nobility and the clergy were able to afford garments in these colors. I also
believe that that dye was by colorfast. 

In the 1760's, the first synthetic dyes were discovered, though it took tip
about the turn of the century till the process was refined. Because it wa
now synthetic, the lower classes could finally afford garments in this color
range.

Again, while I cannot pinpoint my sources by memory, I had looked into this
last spring while costuming the musical Sweeny Todd where the director
wanted a vibrant purple waistcoat for Pirrelli's character. Because of the
year it was set, there was no way He could have afforded that color but
unfortunately my research went unheaded.

Michael Deibert
OAS AAS LLS
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 1, 2011, at 18:04, Marie Stewart  wrote:

> Hi folks.
> I must, respectfully, disagree with Ann on a point about the color 
> Prussian Blue  Prussian Blue is defined as absorbing wavelengths about 
> around 680 nm, causing it to appear in visible light as approximately 
> 700 THz.  Which is a lovely strong blue leaning towards the violet end 
> of the spectrum,  not to the green/yellow end.
> (Methods of Chemical Analysis,  1998)
> 
> I will agree with her that I misspoke when I said it was and aniline 
> dye, its a cyanometalate.  I would have been more accurate to say that 
> Prussian blue was one of the first chemically synthesized dyes.  
> Thanks for the redirect on that one.
> 
> (navel gazing:  We know that the dye was in the painters sphere in the 
> early 1700s  (18th century), but when did it move to the dyers sphere?  
> Was it in the mid-1700s, thanks to Macquer's experiments with reduction,
thereby
> giving an easily transportable salt?   Or was it used popularly, or rarely
> before that.   I'm going to go have to go research this. Fascinating
> topic.
> 
> As a nifty side note, and a easy visual reference (although I got it 
> from Wikipedia, so take it with a big grain of NaCl) the midnight blue 
> crayon was once colored with and called Prussian blue.
> 
> Mari
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[michaeljdeib...@gmail.com]

Sorry, 1860's not 1760's! 

Michael Deibert
OAS AAS LLS
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 1, 2011, at 18:04, Marie Stewart  wrote:

> Hi folks.
> I must, respectfully, disagree with Ann on a point about the color Prussian
> Blue  Prussian Blue is defined as absorbing wavelengths about around 680 nm,
> causing it to appear in visible light as approximately 700 THz.  Which is a
> lovely strong blue leaning towards the violet end of the spectrum,  not to
> the green/yellow end.
> (Methods of Chemical Analysis,  1998)
> 
> I will agree with her that I misspoke when I said it was and aniline dye,
> its a cyanometalate.  I would have been more accurate to say that Prussian
> blue was one of the first chemically synthesized dyes.  Thanks for the
> redirect on that one.
> 
> (navel gazing:  We know that the dye was in the painters sphere in the early
> 1700s  (18th century), but when did it move to the dyers sphere?  Was it in
> the mid-1700s, thanks to Macquer's experiments with reduction, thereby
> giving an easily transportable salt?   Or was it used popularly, or rarely
> before that.   I'm going to go have to go research this. Fascinating
> topic.
> 
> As a nifty side note, and a easy visual reference (although I got it from
> Wikipedia, so take it with a big grain of NaCl) the midnight blue crayon
> was once colored with and called Prussian blue.
> 
> Mari
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Ruth Anne Baumgartner]

Not a vcry scientific or historical comment, but that Prussian Blue  
was my FAVORITE Crayola crayon, and I hated that it got re-named  
"Midnight."

So Wiki is probably right on this.

--Ruth Anne Baumgartner

On Feb 1, 2011, at 6:04 PM, Marie Stewart wrote:


Hi folks.
 I must, respectfully, disagree with Ann on a point about the color  
Prussian
Blue  Prussian Blue is defined as absorbing wavelengths about  
around 680 nm,
 causing it to appear in visible light as approximately 700 THz.   
Which is a
lovely strong blue leaning towards the violet end of the spectrum,   
not to

the green/yellow end.
(Methods of Chemical Analysis,  1998)

I will agree with her that I misspoke when I said it was and  
aniline dye,
its a cyanometalate.  I would have been more accurate to say that  
Prussian

blue was one of the first chemically synthesized dyes.  Thanks for the
redirect on that one.

(navel gazing:  We know that the dye was in the painters sphere in  
the early
1700s  (18th century), but when did it move to the dyers sphere?   
Was it in

the mid-1700s, thanks to Macquer's experiments with reduction, thereby
giving an easily transportable salt?   Or was it used popularly, or  
rarely
before that.   I'm going to go have to go research this.  
Fascinating

topic.

As a nifty side note, and a easy visual reference (although I got  
it from
Wikipedia, so take it with a big grain of NaCl) the midnight blue  
crayon

was once colored with and called Prussian blue.

Mari
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[michaeljdeib...@gmail.com]

Sorry I ant include exact dates as I'm at work and it's a hassle to look it up 
on my phone! 

Indigo dyes were around for a long time. However, they were made from extracts 
of plants. This process was extremely costly for the plants themselves, it took 
multiple baths in the he in order to reach that deep rich color that was 
desires. Because of this expense, only the upper class, nobility and the clergy 
were able to afford garments in these colors. I also believe that that dye was 
by colorfast. 

In the 1760's, the first synthetic dyes were discovered, though it took tip 
about the turn of the century till the process was refined. Because it wa now 
synthetic, the lower classes could finally afford garments in this color range.

Again, while I cannot pinpoint my sources by memory, I had looked into this 
last spring while costuming the musical Sweeny Todd where the director wanted a 
vibrant purple waistcoat for Pirrelli's character. Because of the year it was 
set, there was no way He could have afforded that color but unfortunately my 
research went unheaded.

Michael Deibert
OAS AAS LLS
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 1, 2011, at 18:04, Marie Stewart  wrote:

> Hi folks.
> I must, respectfully, disagree with Ann on a point about the color Prussian
> Blue  Prussian Blue is defined as absorbing wavelengths about around 680 nm,
> causing it to appear in visible light as approximately 700 THz.  Which is a
> lovely strong blue leaning towards the violet end of the spectrum,  not to
> the green/yellow end.
> (Methods of Chemical Analysis,  1998)
> 
> I will agree with her that I misspoke when I said it was and aniline dye,
> its a cyanometalate.  I would have been more accurate to say that Prussian
> blue was one of the first chemically synthesized dyes.  Thanks for the
> redirect on that one.
> 
> (navel gazing:  We know that the dye was in the painters sphere in the early
> 1700s  (18th century), but when did it move to the dyers sphere?  Was it in
> the mid-1700s, thanks to Macquer's experiments with reduction, thereby
> giving an easily transportable salt?   Or was it used popularly, or rarely
> before that.   I'm going to go have to go research this. Fascinating
> topic.
> 
> As a nifty side note, and a easy visual reference (although I got it from
> Wikipedia, so take it with a big grain of NaCl) the midnight blue crayon
> was once colored with and called Prussian blue.
> 
> Mari
> ___
> h-costume mailing list
> h-costume@mail.indra.com
> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume

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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Marie Stewart]

Hi folks.
 I must, respectfully, disagree with Ann on a point about the color Prussian
Blue  Prussian Blue is defined as absorbing wavelengths about around 680 nm,
 causing it to appear in visible light as approximately 700 THz.  Which is a
lovely strong blue leaning towards the violet end of the spectrum,  not to
the green/yellow end.
(Methods of Chemical Analysis,  1998)

I will agree with her that I misspoke when I said it was and aniline dye,
its a cyanometalate.  I would have been more accurate to say that Prussian
blue was one of the first chemically synthesized dyes.  Thanks for the
redirect on that one.

(navel gazing:  We know that the dye was in the painters sphere in the early
1700s  (18th century), but when did it move to the dyers sphere?  Was it in
the mid-1700s, thanks to Macquer's experiments with reduction, thereby
giving an easily transportable salt?   Or was it used popularly, or rarely
before that.   I'm going to go have to go research this. Fascinating
topic.

As a nifty side note, and a easy visual reference (although I got it from
Wikipedia, so take it with a big grain of NaCl) the midnight blue crayon
was once colored with and called Prussian blue.

Mari
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[AnnBWass]

Actually, Prussian blue was discovered in the 18th century and it is a  
bright, greenish-blue.  It is not an aniline dye.  The aniline dyes  were 
developed in the 1850s and 60s.  Fine wool broadcloth was almost  certainly 
dyed 
with indigo.  It is true that it would take several dippings  to get a deep, 
even, shade, but I don't think this made it more expensive than  other 
colors.
 
I had always thought that Brummel, et. al., adopted sober colors as a  
complete reaction to what had gone before, but I could be wrong.  I'm  
definitely going to check out Purdy's book, although the subtitle, "consumer  
cosmopolitanism in the era of Goethe," makes me wonder if it is more focused on 
 
Germany and a slightly later period.
 
Ann Wass
 
 
In a message dated 2/1/2011 2:32:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
maric...@gmail.com writes:

One  thing just struck my mind.
This might be in the time period of the  discovery of Prussic Acid and it's
use as a dye.  The first of the  aniline dyes it was noted for being a vivid
rich blue that didn't  fade.
Sorry I don't have the time to Google now... have to scoot.
But,  it's a theory
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Marie Stewart]

After a blistering trip to the Googles:
Prussian Blue  had been known as a painting pigment as early as 1704,  but
it was in 1752 the French chemist Pierre J.
Macquer made
the important step of showing the Prussian blue could be reduced to a salt
of iron, and a new acid, which could be used to reconstitute the dye. The
new acid, hydrogen cyanide ,
first isolated from Prussian blue in pure form and characterized about 1783
by the Swedish chemist Carl Wilhelm
Scheele.
 Can't recall the name of the unfortunate chemist who discovered HCN.   The
"tale" with that story ends up with the poor chap quite dead, and stained
blue, from the experiment with Prussic Dye.

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Marie Stewart  wrote:

> AH.   One thing just struck my mind.
> This might be in the time period of the discovery of Prussic Acid and it's
> use as a dye.  The first of the aniline dyes it was noted for being a vivid
> rich blue that didn't fade.
> Sorry I don't have the time to Google now... have to scoot.
> But, it's a theory.
>
> Mari
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Emily Gilbert wrote:
>
>> I can't find the reference (which is going to drive me nuts!), but I seem
>> to remember reading somewhere that it was because blue cloth was more
>> expensive to manufacture, so wearing a blue coat told people that you could
>> afford the best.
>>
>> Emily
>>
>> On 1/31/2011 7:53 PM, Hope Greenberg wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It's funny how something so commonly known can strike us afresh with
>>> questions. In this case:
>>>
>>> It's quite apparent that during the Federal/Empire/Regency or turn of the
>>> 18/19century period* a dark blue coat was the sign of higher status and,
>>> together with black, the most common color for full dress. The number of
>>> mentions in Austen, the number of fashion plates that show them indicates
>>> that this is so. Does anyone have any (documented) explanations why?
>>>
>>> The most common one seems to be "because Beau Brummel says so" though
>>> this blog post suggests a Goethe/Werther connection (
>>> http://austenette.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/the-blue-coat/).
>>>
>>> Is it simply a fashion choice that became popular or does anyone know of
>>> an economic, political or other reason for the prominence of the blue coat?
>>> (For example, something like the tax on hair powder contributing to the
>>> demise of that particular fashion, or the tax laws regarding Irish linen
>>> that increased its popularity, etc.)
>>>
>>> - Hope
>>>
>>> * I'm tempted to start using the abbreviation FER to cover this time
>>> period!
>>> ___
>>> h-costume mailing list
>>> h-costume@mail.indra.com
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>>>
>>>
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>
>
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Marie Stewart]

AH.   One thing just struck my mind.
This might be in the time period of the discovery of Prussic Acid and it's
use as a dye.  The first of the aniline dyes it was noted for being a vivid
rich blue that didn't fade.
Sorry I don't have the time to Google now... have to scoot.
But, it's a theory.

Mari

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Emily Gilbert  wrote:

> I can't find the reference (which is going to drive me nuts!), but I seem
> to remember reading somewhere that it was because blue cloth was more
> expensive to manufacture, so wearing a blue coat told people that you could
> afford the best.
>
> Emily
>
> On 1/31/2011 7:53 PM, Hope Greenberg wrote:
>
>>
>> It's funny how something so commonly known can strike us afresh with
>> questions. In this case:
>>
>> It's quite apparent that during the Federal/Empire/Regency or turn of the
>> 18/19century period* a dark blue coat was the sign of higher status and,
>> together with black, the most common color for full dress. The number of
>> mentions in Austen, the number of fashion plates that show them indicates
>> that this is so. Does anyone have any (documented) explanations why?
>>
>> The most common one seems to be "because Beau Brummel says so" though this
>> blog post suggests a Goethe/Werther connection (
>> http://austenette.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/the-blue-coat/).
>>
>> Is it simply a fashion choice that became popular or does anyone know of
>> an economic, political or other reason for the prominence of the blue coat?
>> (For example, something like the tax on hair powder contributing to the
>> demise of that particular fashion, or the tax laws regarding Irish linen
>> that increased its popularity, etc.)
>>
>> - Hope
>>
>> * I'm tempted to start using the abbreviation FER to cover this time
>> period!
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>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
>>
>>
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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Emily Gilbert]

I can't find the reference (which is going to drive me nuts!), but I 
seem to remember reading somewhere that it was because blue cloth was 
more expensive to manufacture, so wearing a blue coat told people that 
you could afford the best.


Emily

On 1/31/2011 7:53 PM, Hope Greenberg wrote:


It's funny how something so commonly known can strike us afresh with 
questions. In this case:


It's quite apparent that during the Federal/Empire/Regency or turn of 
the 18/19century period* a dark blue coat was the sign of higher 
status and, together with black, the most common color for full dress. 
The number of mentions in Austen, the number of fashion plates that 
show them indicates that this is so. Does anyone have any (documented) 
explanations why?


The most common one seems to be "because Beau Brummel says so" though 
this blog post suggests a Goethe/Werther connection 
(http://austenette.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/the-blue-coat/).


Is it simply a fashion choice that became popular or does anyone know 
of an economic, political or other reason for the prominence of the 
blue coat? (For example, something like the tax on hair powder 
contributing to the demise of that particular fashion, or the tax laws 
regarding Irish linen that increased its popularity, etc.)


- Hope

* I'm tempted to start using the abbreviation FER to cover this time 
period!

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Re: [h-cost] his blue coat

[Susan Hiner]

You might look at Daniel Purdy, The Tyranny of Elegance--I'm sure he talks 
about this. 
Susan Hiner


On Jan 31, 2011, at 8:53 PM, Hope Greenberg wrote:

> 
> It's funny how something so commonly known can strike us afresh with 
> questions. In this case:
> 
> It's quite apparent that during the Federal/Empire/Regency or turn of the 
> 18/19century period* a dark blue coat was the sign of higher status and, 
> together with black, the most common color for full dress. The number of 
> mentions in Austen, the number of fashion plates that show them indicates 
> that this is so. Does anyone have any (documented) explanations why?
> 
> The most common one seems to be "because Beau Brummel says so" though this 
> blog post suggests a Goethe/Werther connection 
> (http://austenette.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/the-blue-coat/).
> 
> Is it simply a fashion choice that became popular or does anyone know of an 
> economic, political or other reason for the prominence of the blue coat? (For 
> example, something like the tax on hair powder contributing to the demise of 
> that particular fashion, or the tax laws regarding Irish linen that increased 
> its popularity, etc.)
> 
> - Hope
> 
> * I'm tempted to start using the abbreviation FER to cover this time period!
> ___
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Susan Hiner
Associate Professor
Dept. of French and Francophone Studies
Vassar College
suhi...@vassar.edu






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[h-cost] his blue coat

[Hope Greenberg]

It's funny how something so commonly known can strike us afresh with 
questions. In this case:


It's quite apparent that during the Federal/Empire/Regency or turn of 
the 18/19century period* a dark blue coat was the sign of higher status 
and, together with black, the most common color for full dress. The 
number of mentions in Austen, the number of fashion plates that show 
them indicates that this is so. Does anyone have any (documented) 
explanations why?


The most common one seems to be "because Beau Brummel says so" though 
this blog post suggests a Goethe/Werther connection 
(http://austenette.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/the-blue-coat/).


Is it simply a fashion choice that became popular or does anyone know of 
an economic, political or other reason for the prominence of the blue 
coat? (For example, something like the tax on hair powder contributing 
to the demise of that particular fashion, or the tax laws regarding 
Irish linen that increased its popularity, etc.)


- Hope

* I'm tempted to start using the abbreviation FER to cover this time period!
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